2000 trouble free miles in Beck Speedster with Fuel Injected CB 2165!

Are those Webers in the picture vestigial?

What am I missing here?

They're CB's throttle bodies, John. 

I like that it retains an old school look, but uses new technology.

Excellent ride, Aaron! here's wishing you many miles of top-down driving enjoyment in that bad boy! 

Beautiful car. Could you say the color you have? I am trying to decide on a color for a hopeful future build. Your car nails it!

Thanks

Thanks MaxMartens!

It's Porsche GT Silver.

First used on the 2005 Carerra GT, then on the 2008 Boxster RS60 Spyder, and optional on many of their other standard Porsche cars as an option.  

I really like it. Fits well with the other colors in the garage too

Gorgeous!  Glad to hear the EFI is working out for you.

Hey Stan...

What about the Fuel Injection with some of those Panchito heads? 

Nice car!

Gotta questions for you Aaron... Does the EFI on your motor give addition power over carburetors, or is it mainly for drivability reasons? As in no loading up or 'foot to the floor bog out'? Probably better fuel mileage too? Crank trigger ignition for the computer to read motor fuel needs? You have a HP rating on that motor? And how much $$$ does this motor run as compared to a similarly spec'd carbureted motor.

Thanks

MaxMartens posted:

Gotta questions for you Aaron... Does the EFI on your motor give addition power over carburetors, or is it mainly for drivability reasons? As in no loading up or 'foot to the floor bog out'? Probably better fuel mileage too? Crank trigger ignition for the computer to read motor fuel needs? You have a HP rating on that motor? And how much $$$ does this motor run as compared to a similarly spec'd carbureted motor.

Thanks

My "READING UNDERSTANDING" suggests that drivability..smoothness of acceleration and gas mileage greatly improved with fuel injection. CARBS just cannot be mapped to dispense an EXACT given amount of fuel at any moment as it is largely a function of ones RIGHT FOOT(in USA). CARBS usually can yield greater horsepower but a less finesse process. Electronic crank fire ignition/fuel injection can be very precise for maximum EFFICIENCY, better MILEAGE, less EMISSIONS.....and usually $2000 to $3000 more in price on the initial build. I am certain that there are a few guys on SOC with absolute MECHANIC GRADE EXPERIENCE that can offer better/further explanation.

I'd assume at least a $2000 dollar or more premium over carbs. Remove price of carbs, but same motor, manifolds, et al. But you'll need a fuel return to the tank, high pressure fuel pump, injectors, fuel rails, pressure regulator, high pressure fuel filter, coilpack, and injector harness and all sorts of connectors,

Besides the crank trigger wheel and VR sensor for spark and fuel triggering(unless you have a cam sensor then it's times 2) you'll need a few sensors:

IAT: Intake air temp, seen above in top of air cleaner

MAP: manifold air pressure, usually on board EFI computer

TPS: throttle position sensor, comes with Weber-looking throttle bodies

CHT: temp sensor for coolant on watercooled or cylinder head for aircooled, controls warmup mixture as well as cold and hot start fueling

VR crank: variable reluctance sensor uses a toothed wheel with one missing to signify TDC, this allows batch firing injection and wasted spark ignition. To go full sequential requires a cam sensor which will give you TDC for all 4 cylinders

Wideband O2: this is usually used for closed loop, real time mixture correction to keep it in the intended range.

Sometimes there is another MAP sensor for reading the barometric pressure: i.e. altitude mixture compensation.

I may be going this route someday. I have a set of CB throttle bodies, injectors, rails, fuel pump, and regulator. I just need the brains of the operation. that would be electronic and ummm, mine!

Thanks Danny. A complicated system, but thats whats in our everyday cars that we take for granted. I was comparing with the Subie motor, or just a carbureted vdub motor for a future replica car. I hope to go Subie, but a 2000cc plus air cooled motor could be in the cards also. The Subie is my best option if it can be kept cool.

Max, a Subaru may or may not be cheaper. It all depends on the options. Old factory Suby ECU and converted harness may be cheaper, I don't know. You have to factor in the radiator, hoses, header tank, etc. Plus the trans adapter and new clutch, exhaust, etc....

BTW, Aaron, nice car!

I'll go a step further: a Subaru will not be less expensive than Aaron's setup, unless you do it yourself with salvage yard components. It will also not be the do-all, end-all foolproof solution people hope for. It's a great platform, and I completely undetstand a lot of guys gravitating towards it, but it isn't perfect.

Nothing is. Want perfect? Buy a new Miata. 

Danny! You're already running a Megajolt, no? Seems like all you need to convert to FI now is a Megasquirt to put in the Megajolt's place.

Well, that and a couple dozen hours of wiring and fettling.

When you do that, please send me the Megajolt?

I thought you could run both Mega-thingies at the same time, one for ignition and one for EFI.  Is that not the case?

MegaSquirt controls spark as well. If Danny ever does it, the MegaJolt becomes redundant. 

MaxMartens posted:

Gotta questions for you Aaron... Does the EFI on your motor give addition power over carburetors, or is it mainly for drivability reasons? As in no loading up or 'foot to the floor bog out'? Probably better fuel mileage too?...

Thanks

The Webers and Dellortos we use can be tuned pretty accurately for the powerband the engine was designed for, Max, so there's no big gain (if any) with EFI. What you do get with EFI is better mixture control throughout the whole rpm range, so yeah, drivability improves a lot. Gene Berg claimed that a big (8,000? higher?) rpm engine with EFI that they'd built was like driving a stocker until you really got on the pedal, there being an almost seamless transition to "being on the cam". On higher rpm carbureted engines the transition point where the engine starts making serious power is usually quite noticeable with carbs. The engine will be more efficient with EFI, so mileage will be better, although on a 6,000rpm street engine (such as what a lot of guys run in their Speedsters) I don't know if the improvement would be that noticeable without keeping track.

All that said, a big (2 liter +) 7500rpm engine (even on carbs) is an experience to drive... _{(think big, evil laugh here!)}

I've never had a Speedster with carbs so I can't comment on the difference.

For me, the car sits a lot (1000 miles a year max usage) so I like the turn key, push button, and she runs perfect every time.

Power is smooth and even. The car just rips.

I think it's about 175 HP but Carey at Special Edition would know more.

I like that I just  fill it up, put in some Stabil and not worry if it sits for 3/4 months. I do keep it in a bubble (car capsule) for winter - just to be safe.

I have had dozens of cars with carbs and also with fuel injection and, imho there is not a dimes worth of difference for normal spirited street driving.  

About 99 % of my driving is done at elevations of 1500 to 3500 feet and a rare very short (30 minutes ?) trip 200' below sea level or 9000 feet above sea level...

Just my 2 cents.....    

Ed and Stan, EXACTLY. But no MS for me. Speeduino. Look it up. Dirt cheap and can be full sequential spark and ignition. Yes, the EDIS/Megajolt would be shelved. I'd keep the coilpack and VR crank sensor/toothed wheel. Build ECU, test ECU, build and install the harness, and tune.

I have a coilpack and VR crank sensor and wheel mounted.

I have dual 48mm CB throttle bodies, rails, TPS, and 36lb. injectors.

Fuel pump and pressure regulator, check. Wideband O2, check.

So I would do batch fire injection and wasted spark. I need an IAT, which are cheap.

Given all the parts I already own, maybe a $250 dollar investment, tops.

http://speeduino.com/forum/index.php

Sounds like a plan. The real noticeable advantage of teh Suby is the electronic FI and crankfire. The stouter case and crank are nice but not necessary until you get into real power, and the OHC and 4vC system just add a lot of weight and complexity to an engine that, all said and done, only makes about the same HP in N/A trim as a carefully-built CB Performance engine of the same displacement. And that's before we get into the liquid cooling system!

So a nice, solid FI and crankfire on a well-assembled Type 1 would seem to hit the sweet spot in every way. 

I look forward to learning from you, my brother.

edsnova posted:

Sounds like a plan. The real noticeable advantage of teh Suby is the electronic FI and crankfire. The stouter case and crank are nice but not necessary until you get into real power, and the OHC and 4vC system just add a lot of weight and complexity to an engine that, all said and done, only makes about the same HP in N/A trim as a carefully-built CB Performance engine of the same displacement. And that's before we get into the liquid cooling system!

So a nice, solid FI and crankfire on a well-assembled Type 1 would seem to hit the sweet spot in every way. 

I look forward to learning from you, my brother.

Actually, for me- a "nice, solid FI and crankfire on a well-assembled Type 4 would hit the sweet spot".

Stan, what are you going to do with no carbs to fiddle with?

Lets not take away from Aarons ride. Beauty car w/FI in it and turnkey. The FI buildup in an owners hands could be a real chore.

The beauty is in Beck supplying a FI motor, or say JPS supplying a Subaru motor. A mostly done deal other than the quirks associated with a transplant. 

Max, agreed, nobody is trying to take anything away from Aaron. He has a very sweet ride and I'd look forward to seeing it someday up close, especially the FI.

But these threads drift, and then drift some more. It's how it goes around here.

I am a pretty much DIY can-do guy. There were several naysayers on here when I rebuilt my trans, very successfully, I might add. And several more who said my car wouldn't be done for Carlisle. It was. At least done enough to run under it's own power without a breakdown, cantankerous clamshell latches aside.

I don't mind this thread drifting- good stuff! 

Love the ride!

Did I bring the thread back on point? I'm a little late to the party... 

Marty Grzynkowicz posted:

Stan, what are you going to do with no carbs to fiddle with?

There's nearly nothing to fiddle with anymore. I've got an itch to reinvent some other wheel.  

Oh, I know all about itches

_{Stan- Your car is calling out. It needs a 5 speed. It's crying for another gear. I can hear it from here. It's yelling "please take me beyond the ordinary and make me like those other special few!"}

Maybe one of us needs to try and add ABS ��

My SAS has ABS and traction control.

Stan Galat posted:

Marty Grzynkowicz posted:

Stan, what are you going to do with no carbs to fiddle with?

There's nearly nothing to fiddle with anymore. I've got an itch to reinvent some other wheel.  

I hope it isn't that blue german breadbox in your garage. Do I hear the faint distant, growing chant, "FI, FI..."?

I must admit I enjoy the FI set up in my IM6.  My previous two speedsters were carbureted, and I didn't mind that at all, as Henry sets up the carbs just perfectly, and I never had to touch them the entire time I had the cars.

But the FI is pretty nice.

Bob: IM S6 posted:

I must admit I enjoy the FI set up in my IM6.  My previous two speedsters were carbureted, and I didn't mind that at all, as Henry sets up the carbs just perfectly, and I never had to touch them the entire time I had the cars.

But the FI is pretty nice.

CARBS on a 6 is NOT in anyway as predictable as CARBS in a 4....largely because of the WEBERS/ZENITH or PMOs. The WEBER 3 barrel can be temperamental as the bushings FATIGUE over time and, of course, adding 2 additional cylinders adds to that which can go SOUTH. My WEBERS, fully REBUILT by SUPERTEC during the 2008 BUILD, now with only 7000 miles are showing some WEAR as per my mechanics assessment....some parts are inherently fragile AND the linkage also fatigues(drop down links,etc.) The 4 cylinder WEBERS/DELLORTOS/KADRONS are considerably less TEMPERAMENTAL in the right hands. YOUR FI assembly is remarkably PREDICTABLE and efficient(I'm JEALOUS) and very often last FOREVER with almost NO maintenance. FI is DAMNED NICE. I am NOT complaining.....just a bit of ENVY.....