Investigating Speedster purchase or new build

If you're that close to Carey Hines (Beck), please go and visit the factory and see what a beautiful car he builds.

I would highly suggest a Subaru but as Carey what he recommends. A 1915 VW is a weak substitute for real power, if you go VW have Pat Downs build Carey an 1800cc engine with remote cooler.

And be sure to check what used Becks are on hand.

Vintage Speedsters are pretty close to "real" but can have quality issues that the Beck or Intermeccanica won't.

Nothing to discuss. Buy a Beck. You get what you pay for and you'll never get better customer service on any product anywhere anytime.
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SteveB posted:

 

...I am investigating the purchase of a used 356 or a new build and really confused by all the postings...

Welcome to our happy home.

We are all really confused in the beginning. Many of us are still very confused long after the beginning.

There's a lot to learn about all the various choices available in Speedster replicas, so take your time to make an informed decision. It will probably take at least several months or so to get your head around all the possibilities.

You're very lucky being that close to Beck. Carey Hines is one of the best sources for straight, honest information and will help you find an option that's right for you.

As a Vintage Speedster owner, I can tell you that the cheapest isn't always the least expensive. And, if that sounds confusing, spending some time on this forum may help to clarify things.

Pull up a chair and join the party - which we call 'The Madness'.

In time, you'll see why.

 

SteveB posted:

Good Afternoon Members

I am investigating the purchase of a used 356 or a new build and really confused by all the postings.   I thought I wanted to use the Subaru drive chain,  but have reverted back to the 1915cc VW.  I reside 45 miles from Bremen and going to visit Beck next week.  They seem like the most expensive game in town.  I'm not considering the Specialty mid-engine car and really trying to figure out who has the best build and value.  A Beck Speedster fully optioned is close to 46K.   The Vintage Car seems like the best value,  but is it close to the original?  Would like input and possibly see a few cars in the Chicago area to help make a sound decision.

Thanks to all!

SJB

Why have you switched from SUBY back to VW?....enormous difference in power, predictability, etc and certainly BECK can and will show you all that you need to decide. Your proximity to them is a gift to be able to watch a PREMIER build take place..... You cannot beat that...

Living that close to Carey at Beck is one of the best positions to be in, especially if you are going with a new build. If you buy used, whether it's a Vintage Speedster (VS) built car, a Beck, or an Intermeccanica (IM), I'm sure Carey would be happy to service it. If you buy a new VS you'll have to ship it back for any "warranty" work and that can prove time consuming unless Kirk is willing to pay someone to do your warranty work locally.

But that isn't the only factor in play. A VS built car and a Beck are two completely different cars. Not in styling but in build specs. A VS built car is a shortened VW pan welded to a custom built 2x4 structural steel frame and VW components. The foot-wells have a steeper angle to them and narrower side bolster between you and the door. A Beck built car is a tubular chassis and a custom pan with a wider foot-well and wider bolsters and the tunnel is also lower. Beck uses engines built by Pat Downs at CB Performance and he is without a doubt one of the best engine builders in the business. Suby vs air-cooled is up to you but a 2110cc built by PD is going to push you down the road pretty dang fast. A suby is different and has it's own advantages but those are personal choices for you to make. VS doesn't offer that choice and while my engine has been trouble free the engine builder Kirk uses has had some issues recently. I don't know how many problems versus successes because I only know what's on this site here.

You owe it to yourself to reach out to some of the guys here on the site and make an effort to go look at some cars. Offer to pay for a breakfast or a lunch and look over some cars. There should be a car near you from all three builders. And for what's it's worth an IM is the most expensive car on the market, at least the post-pan cars IM builds are the most expensive. Some of his cars go for more than $100K for a new build. But for that money you get a 6 cylinder Porsche Carrera engine and suspension.

Robert M posted:

Living that close to Carey at Beck is one of the best positions to be in, especially if you are going with a new build. If you buy used, whether it's a Vintage Speedster (VS) built car, a Beck, or an Intermeccanica (IM), I'm sure Carey would be happy to service it. If you buy a new VS you'll have to ship it back for any "warranty" work and that can prove time consuming unless Kirk is willing to pay someone to do your warranty work locally.

But that isn't the only factor in play. A VS built car and a Beck are two completely different cars. Not in styling but in build specs. A VS built car is a shortened VW pan welded to a custom built 2x4 structural steel frame and VW components. The foot-wells have a steeper angle to them and narrower side bolster between you and the door. A Beck built car is a tubular chassis and a custom pan with a wider foot-well and wider bolsters and the tunnel is also lower. Beck uses engines built by Pat Downs at CB Performance and he is without a doubt one of the best engine builders in the business. Suby vs air-cooled is up to you but a 2110cc built by PD is going to push you down the road pretty dang fast. A suby is different and has it's own advantages but those are personal choices for you to make. VS doesn't offer that choice and while my engine has been trouble free the engine builder Kirk uses has had some issues recently. I don't know how many problems versus successes because I only know what's on this site here.

You owe it to yourself to reach out to some of the guys here on the site and make an effort to go look at some cars. Offer to pay for a breakfast or a lunch and look over some cars. There should be a car near you from all three builders. And for what's it's worth an IM is the most expensive car on the market, at least the post-pan cars IM builds are the most expensive. Some of his cars go for more than $100K for a new build. But for that money you get a 6 cylinder Porsche Carrera engine and suspension.

ROBERT M knows his stuff...listen to him!

 JPS offers the Subbie for $5k more than 2210 cc.  $34.5k vs $39.5k. 

http://www.jps-motorsports.com/turnkey.html

JPS doesn't have same hi volume as VS but pretty much equal cars when you look at build features.  VS favors swing rear transaxel and JPS goes with IRS. On the flared body the Subbie is only $3.3k more.

Just a couple of clarifications to my good friend Robert's post.  Robert said,  "If you buy a new VS you'll have to ship it back for any "warranty" work and that can prove time consuming unless Kirk is willing to pay someone to do your warranty work locally."

That is exactly what Kirk has always done for out of town buyers who need warranty repairs.  He pays for having it done locally and always has.  This makes it appear that you might have to ship it back for repairs, but that's not going to happen. I don't know why he added that to his comment. 

Robert also said, "the engine builder Kirk uses has had some issues recently."  While there have been some issues EPICLY reported here, the VAST majority of Kirk's engines have been trouble free just like Robert's and trouble free engines seldom get reported here.  Also, Kirk has used many builders over the years and we don't even know if they came from the same builder.  All engine builders can experience issues, in fact Porsche Boxster engines had a BIG issue.

There are WAY more happy Vintage Speedster owners than there are disappointed owners out there. 

You mentioned considering a SAW. Please do a seach on this site to see what's really happening down in TN. Forewarned is forearmed.

You (like most of us) are looking for "value". You'll need to forget everything you think you've learned in 40-70 years of living, in regards to what is a good value. In this hobby, there is no free ride-- you will pay for everything you get. You won't always get what you pay for, but you will always pay for what you get.

I've owned 3 speedsters. I had an Intermeccanica "coach" built in 2005, before pricing went straight up. They are the undisputed best thing on the market, hands down.

... that being said, at this point in time, and given your proximity to Breman-- just go look at what Carey is doing. I'll bet you end up putting down a deposit with Special Edition (Beck). I know I would if I were you.

If you are undecided, you're welcome to come to a get-together we Midwest guys are planning in July at Starved Rock State Park in Utica, IL (Ottawa). The details are in the "events" section of this site.

Happy hunting.

Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:

You mentioned considering a SAW. Please do a seach on this site to see what's really happening down in TN. Forewarned is forearmed.

You (like most of us) are looking for "value". You'll need to forget everything you think you've learned in 40-70 years of living, in regards to what is a good value. In this hobby, there is no free ride-- you will pay for everything you get. You won't always get what you pay for, but you will always pay for what you get.

I've owned 3 speedsters. I had an Intermeccanica "coach" built in 2005, before pricing went straight up. They are the undisputed best thing on the market, hands down.

... that being said, at this point in time, and given your proximity to Breman-- just go look at what Carey is doing. I'll bet you end up putting down a deposit with Special Edition (Beck). I know I would if I were you.

If you are undecided, you're welcome to come to a get-together we Midwest guys are planning in July at Starved Rock State Park in Utica, IL (Ottawa). The details are in the "events" section of this site.

Happy hunting.

STAN knows best...listen to him......

And Tennessee  is ONLY good for JACK DANIELS and ELVIS.......NOT cars

No need for warning about SAS, since STEVEB in his first post he WASN'T considering Specialty.

You said that Beck seems like "the most expensive game in town."  Not quite correct as Intermeccanica (IM) holds that position.  Both Beck and IM present values that justify their relative costs, although I have to say that Beck's quality is rising every year at a faster pace than their prices.  I've had mine for 11 years and around 50k miles now and love it, but the newer ones are even better.  Given your proximity to Beck, the choice is even easier.  As for Vintage, there are very many happy owners that love their cars and have covered many miles (>100k in Jim Ignacio's case) in them.  It's all about what you want out of the car and what you feel you can afford.

As for originality, that's also up to you.  These are truly custom built and can be as original or unique as you want (and can afford).  Don't rush into anything.  Study the cars and the builders and attend as many events as you can for first-hand experience.  don't be shy about asking for rides in peoples cars, and if the offer for some driving time presents itself, jump on it.  Only then can you make a really informed decision.

I would recommend you check out and hopefully drive a variety of Speedsters before purchasing one. Find out the nuances between each fabricator. 

This site can be a huge help, but can also make your head spin at the same time. Be honest with yourself about the speedster you want. The Speedster that may fit your particular lifestyle may not fit 90% of our members lifestyles. And that's OK. Everyone has a different expectation of their car and everyone has a different budget that can accommodate that budget.

 

-Kevin

Of course, don't forget the site sponsor car.
https://www.speedsterowners.com...dster-fully-sorted-1
-=theron

Jim Kelly posted:

No need for warning about SAS, since STEVEB in his first post he WASN'T considering Specialty.

I missed that he wasn't considering SAS, and misread it that he was. I should never post at the end of a very long day.

Lane Anderson posted:

Beck's quality is rising every year at a faster pace than their prices.  I've had mine for 11 years and around 50k miles now and love it, but the newer ones are even better.  

I visited Breman last year about this time, and was stunned with the quality of the new cars. My frame of reference was cars from about 10-15 years ago, when Brazil still had a lot to do with production. There was nothing wrong with those earlier cars, but they were/are nothing like the new ones in terms of fit/finish. I could see the differences across the showroom floor (two used Spyders on the floor at that time).

That being said, I've always advocated for buying a used car first. There's a lot of "rawness" baked in the speedster cake (that remains there no matter who's car it is), and the experience isn't for everybody. You don't know until you try. I'd never even sat in a speedster before I bought my first on on eBay. I got lucky and liked it. Some guys don't. If you were OK riding a motorcycle or driving a CJ5 Jeep, you'll probably be OK with a speedster, but not necessarily. Getting some seat time ahead of time is a good idea.

My statement above regarding value really only applies to new cars. Once you get into the used market, there are some crazy deals, as well as some guys that are just, plain crazy. Banzai Pipeline's Porsche 6 IM at $60-ish k was a screamin' deal. Theron's pre-sorted Vintage is a good deal as well.

Good luck. It is confusing at first. 

I will reiterate one thing - Steve, you'd be crazy not to attend any upcoming mid-west gatherings.  Stan, et al, don't you guys have one soon?

Not only will you be able to try out several manufacturers, but you'll meet some cool folks, which is what this hobby is really about.  You'll have a blast.

Lane Anderson posted:

I will reiterate one thing - Steve, you'd be crazy not to attend any upcoming mid-west gatherings.  Stan, et al, don't you guys have one soon?

Not only will you be able to try out several manufacturers, but you'll meet some cool folks, which is what this hobby is really about.  You'll have a blast.

July 22

Steve, I did what Stan said back in 2012, I drove down to Special Edition to visit Kevin and Carey and ended up buying a nice used AC speedster. I drove that car though the summer of 2015 to figure out what I really wanted/needed. My new car is Suby powered and was built to my specs. They have a very nice used AC car for $27,900. which you can see here https://www.facebook.com/groups/480375915398079/ 

July 22nd! Tell me more! I didn't make Carlisle this year and have been looking forward to meeting some of my fellow midwesterners that I haven't met.
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Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:

Lane Anderson posted:

I will reiterate one thing - Steve, you'd be crazy not to attend any upcoming mid-west gatherings.  Stan, et al, don't you guys have one soon?

Not only will you be able to try out several manufacturers, but you'll meet some cool folks, which is what this hobby is really about.  You'll have a blast.

July 22

Don't miss this if you are serious about getting into the hobby.

Thank you for the clarification on warranty repairs for VS built cars Troy. 

And, my red Vintage is also available.  Here is the link. 

http://m.ebay.com/itm/222544210782?

Beck has a pre-owned available too but it's a 1600cc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-R...CkZZQsCZ&vxp=mtr

 

Wow... thanks for all the super support and answers.   I'm going to Bremen to see the Beck on Monday afternoon.  Going to see what they're all about.  It really is confusing,  how strong a frame do you really need,  is a pan on a rectangular subframe strong enough or do you need a 3" chrome moly tubing frame.?

Yes, a pan with subframe is strong enough.  By far, the majority of Speedster replicas are pan based.  However, if you can afford it, a tube frame is better. Just be careful about potential registration issues with tube frame cars or with pan based cars that are not registered as a VW with the VW VIN.  In some states, it can be very difficult, if not impossible to register a Speedster that does not have a VW title.  It has turned into a nightmare for many uninformed buyers.  When it comes time to sell your Speedster, having a VW title is a BIG plus. 

That doesn't mean you should rule out buying a Beck, Carey can guide you through the process in your state. 

Illinois is a SEMA state. Registering a tube frame car is very easy if you know who to talk to at the Secretary of State's office. Registering a pan-based car as a VW is illegal (just like it is in pretty much every other state). I'm unsure why this is a "BIG plus".

Marty, Joe, and me (and probably a dozen other silent guys on this website) have all done it the right way. Don't let unfounded fears of registration issues drive you away from a better product. In this state anyhow, the fears are completely unfounded. 

Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Nowhere, USA posted:

Illinois is a SEMA state. Registering a tube frame car is very easy if you know who to talk to at the Secretary of State's office.

Marty, Joe, and me (and probably a dozen other silent guys on this website) have all done it. 

It took me under 1 hour at the local DMV which included a call to the state to figure out what I owed on sales tax. Easy peasy... 

OMG Stan.  Have you never read a post from someone who bought a Speedster registered as a Special Construction and ran into big problems getting it registered in their state? 

Joe Fortino posted:

Steve, I did what Stan said back in 2012, I drove down to Special Edition to visit Kevin and Carey and ended up buying a nice used AC speedster. I drove that car though the summer of 2015 to figure out what I really wanted/needed. My new car is Suby powered and was built to my specs. They have a very nice used AC car for $27,900. which you can see here https://www.facebook.com/groups/480375915398079/ 

This car looks like a no brainer if you are looking for a used Beck.  Drive it.  See if you like it.  If you need more power sell the engine and install a 2110 or do a suby conversion.  Carey is the Bomb.  You'll be friends for life.  Great guy.  Great car.

Troy Sloan posted:

OMG Stan.  Have you never read a post from someone who bought a Speedster registered as a Special Construction and ran into big problems getting it registered in their state? 

We've talked about this before, and I debated for a full day whether or not to take the bait.

I think I will.

Yes, there are guys who can't get their cars registered, and I feel badly for them, but I always go away with the feeling that anything is possible if a guy is willing to escalate the issue

Every time this comes up, you make it sound like a tube-frame car is more likely to experience this as an issue, when this just isn't the case. Generally, the problem arises when a properly titled car is brought in from another state-- it doesn't make a bit of difference whether the car is pan or tube framed, it's the title that the new state doesn't recognize that is the issue. We probably both agree on that.

I'll also agree that there's almost never an issue with a VW title sailing right through whatever state it gets submitted to. However, where we part ways is that I know that registering in this way is not legal in any state. I know everybody does it, and I know that nobody we know of has had an issue. That doesn't make it legal. We can all huff and puff and talk about how somebody somewhere once said that it was OK-- but even a cursory reading of the laws regarding special construction vehicles shows that our cars fit the bill. VIN numbers follow the body, not the frame. If registering a Vintage Speedster as a VW is legal, then I suppose registering a Beck or IM that way would be as well. None of them are.

I have as much disrespect for stupid laws as the next guy, and I'd happily risk the ticket... if that was all that was at stake. But I've always wondered what happens in a situation of extreme liability when driving a car titled as a VW that has clearly been altered to the point that it fits the very definition of a "special construction" vehicle. Let's say a kid darts out in the road, and the driver of a pan-based speedster titled as a VW hits and kills him. I've dealt with insurance adjusters a lot over the past 36 months. If somebody is killed or maimed, I'm guessing that the insurance company is going to be looking for any and every reason to avoid a multi-million dollar claim. I can easily see State Farm or Grundy or Haggarty looking at the car and saying, "that's no VW", and not honoring the policy. I can also see them counter-suing for fraud. What happens when the cops come to the same conclusion? I can afford to lose my car, but I can't afford to lose everything I've ever worked for. 

... especially when there's a way to get this done legally in almost every state in the union. Illinois is ridiculously easy. The OP is from Illinois. There's ZERO reason why he should avoid a tube-framed car.

Bottom line is that a car registered as a VW almost never has a problem being registered in any state.  A car with a Special Construction title is more likely to have a problem in many states especially California.   If you're the unlucky guy who runs into a Special Construction title issue you're going to regret it. 

That first sentence makes it a BIG plus when it comes time to sell. 

Anybody new coming on this site looking for important information about buying one if these cars needs to know what I just said.

I highly recommend buying the Beck to anyone who knows they won't have an issue getting it registered in their state, they are sweet cars. 

Stan's statement "the fears are completely unfounded" is simply not true.

 

I'll get the popcorn....again...

Popcorn anyone?

If you all only new what my local DMV had me do!

crhemi (Bill) poboiinhawaii posted:

Popcorn anyone?

If you all only new what my local DMV had me do!

Are you going to tell us, or do we have to  guess?

 

The trouble with popcorn is that it's getting harder and harder to find any that isn't laced with some butter-like chemicals.

I think both Stan and Troy have legitimate points. Yeah, if you want a Beck or IM, you're going to find a way to get it registered. If you want to play the charade of calling your VS a VW, you'll probably make that work, too. And you do need to be careful what you tell your insurance company when signing up.

So, for me, the main point for someone completely new to all of this is that with any replica, there are issues with registration and insurance that you need to research thoroughly before diving in.

It ain't like popping into your friendly local dealer and driving out in a Corolla.

 

I will start out by saying that all my kit cars have been titled as special construction vehicles (SCV). 

In Virginia:

Pros to titling as SCV

1.  Its legal

2.  Unlimited use of vehicle

Cons to SCV

1.  Initial state safety inspection then yearly after that. 

2.  Yearly personal property tax (PPT).  In VA its 2% the value of the vehicle each year.  So my $40k IM cost me $800/year just to drive a few thousand miles.

3.  Depending on the county or city you live you may have to get yearly emissions testing.

4.  Standard plates front and rear.

Pros to titling as an antique vehicle

1.  No safety inspections so you can even go without windshield wipers for instance.

2.  No emissions testing

3.  No PPT 

4.  Cool antique plates.  For some years you don't have to use a front plate.

Cons to antique vehicle registration

1.  Its illegal

2.  Limited mileage and use.

So I can certainly see why some folks are tempted to title their kit cars as antiques.  Since many of us title our cars illegally we probably should not be having this conversation on an open forum.

 

 

Troy Sloan posted:

Stan's statement "the fears are completely unfounded" is simply not true.

I make it a habit to tell the truth, even when it's uncomfortable, which is why we're having this conversation. I'm not sure what's gained by misquoting me, but I think if someone took the time to read what I actually said, you'll find everything I said to be the truth.

What I said (up there for anybody to see) regarding the registration of tube framed cars was, "In this state anyhow, the fears are completely unfounded". Illinois is a SEMA state, and there are provisions in the vehicle code for anybody to get their tube-framed (or pan-based) replica titled and registered easily. It takes about an hour.

FWIW, California also has a provision to title and register a replica legally. If you choose to bypass that, that's your choice. 

My car came to me SB100  Special Construction registered, that Troy mentions.  I had 0 problems changing the title and at  later date to vanity plates.

I took more time to find a parking space at DMV, than I spent inside, with an appointment.  I live in California.