This just popped up in my PM inbox and, while I've already responded to the newbie, I thought that more comments quickly, before he sends a check, would be timely input for him. Here it is:
"Hi, I was planning on ordering a Specialty Auto Sports 356 . I just joined the forum and am now worried but also confused. Can I call you to discuss? "
So what are the comments (or pertinent links to history on here) that you guys want to offer to a newbie?
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I lurked here on the forum for a few weeks, exercised the search function and got to know who really knew what they were talking about (guys like Gordon). I had seen an SAS add a long while ago and had always wanted a coupe and it peaked my interest. After considerable research here I decided on either Vintage Motorcars of California or Special Editions in Indiana. They were considerably more expensive than SAS was advertising, BUT I knew I'd actually get a car and that it would be a quality piece.
The owner of SAS has a long history of ripping people off, never actually delivering cars and he is in hot water with his states attorney general's office. It appears that if you want to drop a ton of money for nothing, SAS is your place. Or you could just dump a few bundles of $100's into your back yard fire pit and get it over with quicker.
@Jim Kelly - Maybe you could point us to your threads with some links? Thanks...
Giving money to Mr. L would be exactly that- just handing him a bunch of cash. There's a long line of people waiting for cars from this guy. Do some searching here and read up on this guy- you won't be any different than the rest of the marks he's already fleeced. What's the first installment? It used to be about $17,000- if you want to kiss it goodbye, give it to 1 of us. At least we'll be honest about it never coming back... Al
Here are two links from our forum for examples. We've had many guys wind up here that have lost deposits, never seen cars or been able to contact he who shall not be named of SAS. He's changed his business name slightly at least once maybe more times. He hasn't delivered a car in YEARS as far anyone can tell.
need-advice-concerning-sas-steve-lawing?reply=590444326071511359#590444326071511359
AND here is a Better Business Bureau listing, he keep changing the name subtly to confuse people trying to research his scam.
I am truly surprised that Mr. L has yet to become part of a Magician's act and disappear.
A scam artist of the first order.
Tell this guy to run, not walk, as far and as fast from Lawing as possible. How many times have those of us on this thread heard terrible stories about this deadbeat, scamming, lowlife?
I try not to hate anybody, but con artists and thieves bring out the worst in me.
Do not consider doing business with Steve Lawing in any of his business names. John Hallstrand recently posted on FB that Lawing's legacy is that he invented the use of a Subara platform for replicas, and he didn't get the credit for it.
Some people just don't get it!
Lawing DOES have a legacy, the same that Bernie Madoff has, as a ripoff artist of the first caliber. Don't just take my word for it, Google "Specialty Auto Sports Knoxville TN", and you will witness his true legacy in the industry. At my last count, there were 19 customers who didn't get a car or their deposits returned.
What a way to make a living, eh?
@Gordon Nichols, I got exactly the same PM and responded, as diplomatically as possible, that he should look elsewhere.
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I'm not sure what more we can do, Gordon.
There is now overwhelming evidence available for anyone who cares to look.
I'm always amazed by the number of folks who show up here having already made a deposit on a new build or having bought a new car, and then ask what we think.
There's not much we can do to influence a decision that's already been made, so maybe what's being sought is support for a choice they're now unsure about, in which case, the last thing they want to hear is why they may have made a mistake.
If the threads linked to here don't steer someone away from SAS, probably nothing will.
I hung out here for about a year before deciding on where to place an order. I got a lot of good advice, but I wish some friends of my builder had been a bit more forthright. I would have likely chosen the same builder, but the details of my order would have been a lot different.
That experience is probably why my comments about my car are often a bit more acerbic than they could be, but I think folks like your newbie come here for honest opinions. They should hear the worst with the wonderful and be left to make their own decisions.
In the case of SAS, though, I don't know that there is much wonderful to be found any more.
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I am the guy who sent the PMs. I have not given Steve money yet. Of yesterday was my first day on this forum. I was going to go see his facility and drive one of his cars. I have talked to him 4 times now twice for hours. I was planning to talk to the people have taken deliver of the last 4 cars he has finished. I have looked into the single name change and what the issues were with the bankruptcy that happened when he was assembling kits for a kit manufacturer that went belly up and he had to complete cars for customers when the kits were not complete.
When gearing multiple versions of the same story it it's hard to know what to believe from people not involved who have different "facts". I have been parts of forums where, unlike here, I am a true expert and know more than 1% of people in the world. I have seen what internet forums can devolve into. I'm not saying that I doubt anything anyone in particular has to say but given that some total of here and elsewhere it's hard to know what to believe. So frustrating situation.
Given e the depth of feeling and a couple people who have actually had direct experience that seems applicable I'm unlikely pursue an SAS car. Unfortunately as much as I love the beauty of the Porsche 356 Speedster Cabriolet and Roadster, very few other options that I would consider purchasing, at least that the prices I see now newly constructed one.
I want to get in my car and drive it and be able to drive distances without overheating, without getting wet in the rain, be able to drive it and not have to worry about carburetor floats or other normally aspirated air-cooled engine foibles. I admire the people who have the knowledge that many of you have and how to take care of these cars and deal with them so that they can be reliable transportation as well as beautiful pieces of art. I just don't have that knowledge level yet. I need more idiot proof car that has a true internal frame water cold engine modern suspension in standard parts. It's probably means that while I long to have what I think is the most beautiful car ever built I can't afford an actual Porsche 356 (I would be afraid to drive it even if I did have the funds) and I will not enjoy the variability of servicing a modified VW pan or air cooled version.
If there or any quiet workers here who either have an sas car or until they have more direct experience please PM me. I respect that pretty much everyone here is more experience than than me but unintentionally initiating a flame war or I'm a target is something I want to avoid but I'm afraid in forums like this, it's very hard to avoid when there are passionate feelings.
TThanks to those of you who has responded to my PMs already. No matter what your feelings about SAS I appreciate you taking the time communicate with me. Should I ever end up with 356 replica of some sort, I hope I will be walking here even if it is a Cabriolet. Groupon if I find an existing used SAS product.
Nice update. Good luck, David.
I agree..... Good update. This forum is a little different in that in the past 18 years I can’t recall any huge flame wars happening. We’ve had a few brush fires, but they were usually dealt with pretty quickly and we all moved on. And I come from the Open Systems Computer World and know scorched Earth flame wars from work experience. We’re not like that, here.
I have personally met and chatted with Steve Lawing and know that he can be VERY personable and persuasive. He is also a remarkable engineer and does some very cool stuff on his builds. But it’s one thing to promise a lot to get the first payment or two and another whole thing to actually deliver the car that you’ve signed a contract on. He’s really good at taking the money, not nearly so good at delivering anything.
We’ve been warning people about SAS/SAW now for years but there are a LOT of people out there who have not heard of this site and don’t get the advance warning you’re getting and they get burnt - Very badly.
Please listen to us. We’re trying to save you one helluva lot of money and untold angst and aggravation. There are a lot of posts in the history on here that should convince anyone that this site, and the people on it, are on your side.
Steve Lawing is a grifter and a con artist. Period.
If you give him your money, you have a 5-10% chance of actually getting a car sometime before he dies(and that's generous). Would you play those odds in the stock market? A casino?
It's your money @David K. Do what you want. You've been warned.
@@David Kluchman Respectfully, you wishing for a pleasant transaction with Mr. L. and that Sir, just isn't going to happen until the 12th of never. I am sure all herein wish you well but from the above post you are still leaning toward monumental financial shyt storm.....
There are good reputable Speedster manufactures and we often speak of them highly on this Site.
" Caveat emptor "
@David K posted:I need more idiot proof car that has a true internal frame water cold engine modern suspension in standard parts.
Respectfully sir, you've answered all of your own questions. The car you desire exists (sort of) but not at all at a price point you'd find acceptable. New IMs start at about $100K, and have a 2 year wait. New Subaru-powered Becks have a slightly to somewhat lower entry point, but are also several years out.
Both are custom cars, with all the attendant teething issues that are not ever dealt with in a mass produced car.
Buy a GT4 - you'll get more respect, pay about the same money, and have something that ticks all the boxes.
@David K posted:I want to get in my car and drive it and be able to drive distances without overheating, without getting wet in the rain, be able to drive it and not have to worry about carburetor floats or other normally aspirated air-cooled engine foibles. I need more idiot proof car that has a true internal frame water cold engine modern suspension in standard parts.
David,
This is not the hobby for you. You're going to be disappointed. We have all spent considerable time and some have spent considerable money to get our cars in reliable, drivable condition. Sounds like you want an everyday, go to the store vehicle. The purchase of the car is just the entry price.
P.S. if you drive a Speedster in the rain you are definitely going to get wet!
Seriously. SOC is the community that will guide you away from a bad mistake. This we are doing. For the money you're looking to spend, for the enjoyment you desire, there are other communities that can guide you toward your goals.
Consider:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/C8.Corvette.Owners/
https://www.miniusa.com/why-mi...est-owners-ever.html
Get what you really want and be happy!
Might I suggest a nice Cayman or Boxster? Lots of nice, used ones out there, and they are a beautiful ride.
David:
I have a replica and a 2008 Cayman S. with about 46k on the clock. Trust me, the Cayman at less than $25,000 is a wonderful, reliable, great performing daily driver. Look around, patiently, and you can find a nice Cayman or Boxster that will scratch your Porsche itch.
My 356 replica tends to be less reliable, but it is a hobby car that I drive and am constantly working on because I like to tinker.
You can have one, the other or both, but neither should come from Lawing, and won't.
It isn't so much his finished product isn't a reasonably nice car, as it is that he won't deliver one to you. If you want to be in line behind some 20 or so people, many waiting for years, please go right ahead, but don't come back on the forum complaining that you have been duped.
Nobody here has any stake in lying to you. We don't know you but many of us have been around the hobby for years and hate to see it sullied by this guy. Note that he has never repudiated anything said about him on this forum, and little of it has been favorable. He knows about the SOC and hopefully we have saved some folks from making a mistake by contracting with him.
You can noodle around and investigate all you want, and you certainly don't have to believe the myriad number of people who will try and wave you off, but you've been informed, believe it or don't.
Do not be deceived into thinking that I was dry...I was not!
Thanks everyone I AM listening. I have a long reply I am in the middle of composing but I am swamped with getting my house ready to sell so, car fun is taking a back seat so to speak. However, briefly, I would like to restate something I said earlier. If it were possible to get a 356 body and authentic looking interior AND somewhat more idiot proof modern mechanics and not pay $100,000, that would be my dream. I am probably in the situation where I can have one or maybe two of those things, but not three.
Knowing that whatever 356 replica I went for could well take a couple years and I want to scratch an itch now. I am looking at older Boxsters and 911s under $30K as my "for now cars". Has to be a convertible (this is a third car) so Cayman is out. I tried to like the Miata but it just doesn't have a soul for me. I had not really considered the Mini ragtop but not sure why. I might investigate that". The Corvette douse have a soul but not one I like; I wanted to punch that guy in the face in high school (possibly I have some unresolved issues from HS 
)...
Have you talked to Roy @Cloud 9?
@David K posted:Knowing that whatever 356 replica I went for could well take a couple years and I want to scratch an itch now.
Your best option might be to buy a previously owned car that an enthusiast has loved and already gone through. There may be paint chips and small aesthetic defects but you'll be ready to go. You're more likely to be pleased.
Your best option might be to buy a previously owned car that an enthusiast has loved and already gone through. There may be paint chips and small aesthetic defects but you'll be ready to go. You're more likely to be pleased.
I am close to letting my car fly on BAT with what some of these cars are getting.
I have a couple low mile all original 912s on my radar.
@David K posted:Knowing that whatever 356 replica I went for could well take a couple years and I want to scratch an itch now.
Your best option might be to buy a previously owned car that an enthusiast has loved and already gone through. There may be paint chips and small aesthetic defects but you'll be ready to go. You're more likely to be pleased.
This is great advice. I had similar expectations, and was very thankful to find a community like this to point me in the right direction.
I ended up with a pre-owned (12k miles), mostly pre-sorted toy that required limited maintenance, is "mostly" water tight, and a whole lot of fun. I daily drove it, before the pandemic, through 100°F+ temps and rain. Even after a few months without driving last year it handled a 700 mile road trip through the coastal mountains just fine. I'm about to head on another one.
Keep your eye on the classifieds here, Craigslist, BaT. And then bring back any potential purchases here for the experts to weigh in. If you were already willing to wait for one to be built, I bet you'll find a great one to drive before then. Several from this community have sold their cars over the past year. I think you would've been happy with several of them. There will be more.
@David K wow!...it blows my mind that slick SAS steve is still actually having conversations with people about his ghost cars...i would have thought he would be WEARING OUT HORSES trying to stay ahead of the law and folks that want his liver on a stick!....i have had personal 1st hand dealings with this grifter...if you really need to hear my story even after all the fair warning available here in the open...PM me and i'll lay it on ya....
Have you ever had a conversation with someone about the particulars of your work, using the common vernacular of your industry and everyone gets it......... but then you do the same with people outside and they have no idea what you are talking about?
The suggestion of used 356 is probably David's best bet. What he would probably want to find is a used Vintage (CA, not AZ) or Beck with a Subaru motor but there are other used options with Subies you could entertain. Who knows what the price would be but I am happy to report that I bought my Spyder for less than people said I would. You just have to look around. Frankly, I would avoid BAT because who wants a bidding war? I want a guy that hasn't been able to sell his replica 356 to buy that kidney. Desperation is a wonderful aroma.
Like David, I am not mechanically inclined but finding people to work on the Type 1s in not that difficult. I would assume it would be more complicated with the Subie for certain things but I don't own one, so I don't know.
Please don't listen to the "this isn't the hobby for you" nonsense. If you have some money to pay a mechanic, you will be fine with a used whatever if that is what you want. I also own a Cayman and will give a second recommendation for one but I have had to fix the Cayman at a mechanic slightly less than the Spyder so you are still going to pay someone........ and either way, the mechanic is going to see a Porsche-AHHHH badge and think you are loaded.
For all my SOC friends, it appeared from his first post that he was listening and then he posted again that he was listening. I think the warnings are heard and don't need to be repeated 
Desperation is a wonderful aroma.
I always thought it a bit Despicable but years ago someone posted best time to buy was: 3 D's - Death, Divorce or Disease ---- other would be I guess December.
I was going to post this PSA last night but talked myself out of it:
In future, I think we should limit “advice” to PMs. I’m 100% for warning interested parties before they make a huge mistake, but I think we need to be mindful that we live in a litigious society, and IMO, some of the comments in this thread and others could easily convince a bad actor to find a lawyer willing to make a stink.
Ive seen it happen over less on other forums. And it’s usually the forum owners they come after.
@WOLFGANG posted:Desperation is a wonderful aroma.
I always thought it a bit Despicable but years ago someone posted best time to buy was: 3 D's - Death, Divorce or Disease ---- other would be I guess December.
I’m trying to think of a “D” word for when someone finally realizes that 1/4 finished kit taking up 1/2 the garage just ain’t gonna happen.
Im still gobsmacked that my buddy found a finished, running, driving, licensed CMC Californian for $16K.
I was being a bit cheeky about the "needing to sell the car to buy a kidney" bit but these types of cars are both what a seller is willing to accept and what a buyer is willing to pay. It is like that for all specialty/classic cars.
Having said that, I do stand by the BAT comment. Why would you want to fight over a car with your money when you can find a private seller. Frankly, if I can pay $16K for something others are paying $30K for, I'd happily keep my money. If you are willing, you can find deals. You just need to be mindful of what you are looking at.
@dlearl476 I think that last “D” is “despair”.
I ended up there for the same reasons and then wrote checks to get myself out of the swamp of despair.
It worked.
@dlearl476 posted:I was going to post this PSA last night but talked myself out of it:
In future, I think we should limit “advice” to PMs. I’m 100% for warning interested parties before they make a huge mistake, but I think we need to be mindful that we live in a litigious society, and IMO, some of the comments in this thread and others could easily convince a bad actor to find a lawyer willing to make a stink.
Ive seen it happen over less on other forums. And it’s usually the forum owners they come after.
Your protection in a litigious society is the truth. And we have that on our side in spades.
@Robert M posted:Your protection in a litigious society is the truth. And we have that on our side in spades.
The truth being on your side doesn't mean squat when someone with enough money to hire an attorney gets butt hurt. Remember, we have a legal system, not a justice system. Typically the side with the deepest pockets wins.
Ask the guy who owned Smugmug who spent millions fighting a dubious copyright infringement suit.
Sorry, dlearl476, but you are incorrect regarding defamation, which you allude to above. The key element of the tort of defamation, either libel, which is written, or slander, which is spoken, is a false statement. Truth is called the perfect defense to defamation. In addition, a defamation case is extremely costly to mount, and no experienced litigator would take such a case on a contingency basis, since damages would be limited, due to the necessity of proving actual harm. That's why the only defamation cases that go forward are celebrities or otherwise famous individuals, who can bankroll the costs and can prove that harm to their reputation cost them millions in lost income, etc.
Light is a powerful disinfectant.
I have another "D" for you: derelict. You know, like guys who have Speedster projects for 30 plus years. Eventually they'll be for sale...
@DannyP posted:I have another "D" for you: derelict. You know, like guys who have Speedster projects for 30 plus years. Eventually they'll be for sale...
Someone on another forum posted a CL ad to a group of just about every bad VW-based kit car. Bradley GT, Sebring, Avenger. About 5 of them, none past the body on pan stage.
Hey, I thought I had shared this below but am not seeing it (still getting used to navigation and protols). I have provided my rational for canceling my order even with the most generous possible interpretation.
What I found difficult to interpret here was those who are maybe speaking hyperbolically when they say that Jim is a "grifter" and "cheater" and someone who intends to exploit people for financial gain of his own well having no intention to build them a car. It's just my opinion but those people sound so frustrated in their language that I didn't know what to make of their statements. Having spent a lot of time with Jim now on the phone in multiple conversations and watching dozens videos and talking to some happy customers in great detail about his manufacturing process as well as, especially his management decisions, I have concluded that he is well intentioned but he is his own worst bottleneck in being more successful and having happier customers. He has turned out cars that people love to drive when they get them but the wait and the lack of predictability about the length of time for the wait especially are killing him. Ultimately it made me decide not to order a new one. Even if I believed everything he says, and there are some areas which I have talks about whether he is being honest with himself, not being able to predict whether I'm going to wait 2 years 4 years 6 years or longer will drive me nuts. It could leave me to becoming one of the haters who sounds so fed up and frustrated. It may be that the result of his manufacturing process has the same effect of him being a "grifter" so I guess I get where a couple of the more voluable and expressive people are coming from but it was hard to take them literally after seeing how much Jim cares about his cars and making things that will be great whenever they get finished however long that takes. In my conversation with him yesterday I suggested he should charge a good deal more than he does and get help so he can finish more than a couple cars a year, he had some explanations but basically I think it comes down to he likes to be on top of everything personally and has not trained enough people that he trusts to work on key parts of manufacturing process. I think he also let feature creep harm his timing in the past. Sounds to me like when someone wanted something new he was too intrigued about the process of seeing if he could do it to just say no because it was going to kill not only the time frame for that car but every other car chewed up afterwards. Rinse repeat a bunch of times and you get nothing happening for anyone for great length of time.
At least with me throughout he was very upfront that he thinks there is a two-year backlog at this point but that there's no way of knowing how long it will take to get my car for sure because of many variables beyond his control so I should be prepared to wait longer than that. He was very clear about the lack of predictability. Maybe he is more careful how he says things now because of past people's disappointments or mismatch with their expectations and his process. I did ask him about the bankruptcy and company name change and investigated such public documents as were available and tracked down the possible conditions for the BBB rating and it seemed to tell a cohesive story about what went on and why and did suggest necessarily that he was a charlatan. In addition, I do think there are differences in the way he is currently subcontracting out significant elements and has standardized on just a couple designs and constrained significantly what options he offers compared to what he did in the past - probably because trying to solve irresistible engineering problems led him down too many rabbit holes and delayed everyone's cars too long. So it was tempting to think for a moment that he may have sorted things out and once he gets through his backlog will be much more efficient in producing cars. I really wanted to believe this but in the end I couldn't find enough evidence that people were getting their cars more quickly. At least yet.
In my business experience a smart, curious and resourceful engineer who has no one to effectively make productivity demands, is an extremely dangerous and risky asset. If he is very personable it is actually worse. If that person is head of the company then the company has a significant risk of success. This is why venture capital firms will often only invest in new technology companies when they can bring in a management professional from keeping the perfect the deadly enemy of the good (and viable).
But in any case right now I am as worried about him expiring or deciding to sell the company to someone else before my car is completed which would lead to a whole another level of uncertainty and risk for me. So even if I believed everything he said (insert caveat about self deception if not shading facts again), I don't want to have to sit with not knowing what the period of my wait will be. It's the uncertainty more than the length of time. If I had reason to believe that with 100% certainty of a completed car in even 4 years I might still go ahead. But he himself, not to mention many if you here has made it clear I'm just a never going to get certainty until near the very end of the process.
I think the product he is making that I have discussed over many conversations at length and reviewed on many many videos has engineering solutions over for windows, tops, internal chasis frame, suspension, engine options, availability of stock parts later, and many other details for the price he guarantees represents the best bundle of goods for me. But I just can't take the less risk even if I trust his good intentions that I would see the car before my own head exploded and many of you had the schadenfreude pleasure of saying "we tried to warn you! "
just dont do it
Maybe I was being overly subtle. I canceled my order.
Go to his shop and take pictures of all the cars he is working on and post them here. Look for any sign of employees. Have him give you a contact of his last customer that actually got a car and go see if it really exists.
When you have so many horror stories out there, why would you even consider doing business with this person?
Dave, you have as good a handle on what’s been happening there as anyone has had over the past ten plus years. He is a great design engineer who can’t help but try to design new stuff all the time, but a terrible business manager, even when he knows what must be done to make his business successful. A good running, profit making company will always be secondary to tackling a design challenge for him.
This has been discussed with him many times over from several different people who have intimate knowledge about developing and introducing products from design prototype through pre-production and into production at levels from 2 - 5 per year up to 2 - 5 per month. Charles Gardner (search for him on here - he bought the first SAS coupe) had as much knowledge about starting/growing a business as anyone and tried harder than anyone to get him to run his business as a production business, rather than a design concept studio, and it all seemed to fall on deaf ears.
I think most people on here are just happy that we managed to convince someone that going the SAS route, while it promises a ground-breaking product, ultimately causes far more angst and emotional upheaval in the process than it’s worth.
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Dave, Gordon's initial post here included this quote from you:
"Hi, I was planning on ordering a Specialty Auto Sports 356 . I just joined the forum and am now worried but also confused. Can I call you to discuss? "
I was left with the impression that you hadn't yet placed an order, and I wrote this in my reply:
"I'm always amazed by the number of folks who show up here having already made a deposit on a new build or having bought a new car, and then ask what we think.
There's not much we can do to influence a decision that's already been made, so maybe what's being sought is support for a choice they're now unsure about, in which case, the last thing they want to hear is why they may have made a mistake."
But it looks like you had already placed an order, so maybe my hunches were right.
In any case, congratulations on having the strength to be honest with yourself and on having a cool enough head to fairly evaluate all the arguments folks were shouting at you. We've watched many people in your situation who were unable to admit to themselves that they may have erred, and we've painfully seen them suffer the consequences over the months and years that followed. I think the farther this whole business gets in your rearview mirror, the better you'll feel about the decision you've made.
The 'evidence' against SAS is scattered across numerous forums and websites on the internet, and in news reports about the various legal entanglements. It's not just a handful of 'difficult', impatient customers. It's a LOT of ordinary people who tell stories remarkably like yours about their first encounters with SAS - before they sent in their checks.
I think you're finding that we frown on flame wars, are enthusiastic about this hobby, and tend to like a nice, civil discussion. We love to see others get involved, but we want them to understand that these cars are not for everyone.
Pull up a chair, stick around for a while, get some popcorn going, and ask as many questions as you want. Maybe a year from now, maybe sooner, you'll decide that there are many ways to get involved in Speedster replicas that don't involve much risk, and that there are some vendors with long, proven track records for quality products and honest business practices who can probably build you something that will check most of your boxes.
As we are wont to say, welcome to the madness.
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I'd love to hear from anyone who has received a new SAS build in the past 5 years. Or to see any solid evidence of such a build and such a customer.
My hat is off to David.
I'm a lousy gambler and an even worse market investor, because I suffer from sunk cost fallacy thinking. I don't know too many guys who can really, really like a person or a thing or a job, but see the issues and just walk away. I know I'm not that guy*.
David is. Kudos.
*see also, "hotrod Type 1"
https://www.speedsterowners.co...6#673348824858132326
Well we are both right Mitch. I not sent him any money but had already sent him my paperwork buildsheet for my order (356 Cabriolet, improved scissor frame roof, electric roll up windows, 5 speed manual trans on a turbo engine, luggage rack, dark town leather interior, AC, headlight rock grates ... A touring 356). I called him up this week to say I just could not stomach the uncertainty about completion date he himself said was endemic to his process. I tried then to give him some business advice. I probably would not pay the amount that he should be changing to produce his cars but nontheless suggested he should do so.
https://www.speedsterowners.co...5#673630299871948355
Well, Stan since early retirement, I have started playing poker semi professionally (I have played in the world series of poker main event a bunch of times and made money for both myself and my backers/investors). One of things elite poker players are good at doing is quick assessments risk and reward and quantifying the the possible outcomes while dealing with uncertainty. When you see a big pot out in the middle of the table it's hard to fold sometimes. But you not only have to look at the hand you are holding dispassionately but the *range* of hands your opponent could be holding and how well that match the board (community cards). I will never be at the very highst level (those guys are all youngsters) but I think after a decade of playing with them I am better at doing risk assessment than I was as a CFO of a startup biotech company.
I entered a hand in The SAS car game but ultimately had to fold and wait for a better opportunity despite the alute of what the care could be.
@David K posted:https://www.speedsterowners.co...6#673348824858132326
Well we are both right Mitch. I not sent him any money but had already sent him my paperwork buildsheet for my order (356 Cabriolet, improved scissor frame roof, electric roll up windows, 5 speed manual trans on a turbo engine, luggage rack, dark town leather interior, AC, headlight rock grates ... A touring 356). I called him up this week to say I just could not stomach the uncertainty about completion date he himself said was endemic to his process. I tried then to give him some business advice. I probably would not pay the amount that he should be changing to produce his cars but nontheless suggested he should do so.
Good on ya, David. You're risk analysis is good enough, and that is what counts.
I would add that, in a setting like the World Series of Poker, one variable that is much reduced, if not eliminated, is cheaters.
Sometimes it's hard to work into your calculation the possibility that a counterparty is simply lying, and that their product's curiously low price is not a business error, but the essential element of their business model, second only to the rather significant up-front deposit.
Glad you dodged this bullet.
@edsnova ditto!...enquiring minds need to know...sounds to me like this david guy @David K has the ways & means to do some "in person" investigating...and sounds like he is on shall we say "speaking terms" with mr. steve lawing aka mr. ponzi.....he should do us all a favor and show up there in knoxville tenn with his cell phone and snap some photos & perhaps do an interview with this guy...and then report here with his findings....i still cant believe he is still answering his phone and talking to people about building cars!.....he is just a painful memory to me , but i would think he would be in hiding somewhere and not at all accessible or else a large group of folks would be in his face on a daily basis...along with their lawyers!...i would sure like to hear about justice being served against this guy for the grief he has caused....but that's just me....in what has become a SURREAL world, not sure justice is obtainable anymore when "career criminals" are held truly accountable...if you get my point
I hope you find the right car for yourself David.
@edsnova posted:I'd love to hear from anyone who has received a new SAS build in the past 5 years. Or to see any solid evidence of such a build and such a customer.
As far as I know, the last car built and delivered was to as guy in Dubai, whose car was delivered late in 2015.
The car I owned was delivered to its original owner in 2012, Jim Kelley's car was in 2013, then the Dubai guy in 2015 (I think his name was Davide). I have heard nothing about cars delivered since then.
It already has a new owner. I said goodbye to my SAS a couple weeks ago. I already miss her...
@Jethro posted:As far as I know, the last car built and delivered was to as guy in Dubai, whose car was delivered late in 2015.
The car I owned was delivered to its original owner in 2012, Jim Kelley's car was in 2013, then the Dubai guy in 2015 (I think his name was Davide). I have heard nothing about cars delivered since then.
3 cars in 4 years, there's a line up of 19 people (that we know about) waiting for cars, some for as long as 9 or 10 years, hasn't built/sold a car in going on 6 years, keeps on taking deposits and is almost 80- sounds like he's figured out a great way to fund his retirement...
@ALB posted:3 cars in 9 years, there's a line up of 19 people (that we know about) waiting for cars, some for as long as 9 or 10 years, hasn't built/sold a car in going on 6 years, keeps on taking deposits and is almost 80- sounds like he's figured out a great way to fund his retirement...
Fixed it.
@David K I know you made your decision already but here are some reports from people who HAVE given SL money and haven't gotten a car.
https://www.tapatalk.com/group...b36e954e0ecabe24fae3
The forums to pay attention to are: The Queue, New Member (Another guy in the queue) but start at the last page, and Any Deliveries in 2017. The last reply there was in 2018. Start at the last page or so and read from there.
A Speedster is definitely not for you. Like others have said you WILL GET WET if it rains. I was going to suggest a Subaru powered 356 coupe replica but if it has to be a convertible you’re doing well in checking out older Boxsters. A friend found an all original black 996 for $15K. He had to fix the convertible top mechanism, install new shocks and give it a nice detail but it is a KILLER CAR right from the factory and it has the speed, handling, thrills and creature comforts (A/C system that works as opposed to the ones on earlier aircooled cars). Yes I know, he got lucky but he had an insider at a car dealership that gave him first dibs.
Impala, let me try again. In considering the various possible speedster replicas that I *thought* were available to me, I preferred one that had a better roof mechanism and actual windows that seal compared to the original andore accurate replicas, such as those made by HWSNBNA (He Who Shall Not Be Named Autos, AKA SAS) . That was one of the reasons I was attracted to HWSNBNA cars.
If I could find a somewhat reliable replica that I could take a road trip in but otherwise would be more weather dependent that was going to get me wet if it rained, I would still be interested because they are so classically beautiful.
My plan was to get a 15-30 year old Boxter or 911 for 2 or 3 years while my 356 was constructed and sell the newer car in fact. But now that my perfect 356 bubble has been burst I am back to square 1. I might find an existing replica to buy and live with it's foibles, or I might settle for a used Boxter or 911 (or TT, or...). Or I might just oggle the 356 cars of others as I have been for the last 15 years.
"Impala, let me try again. In considering the various possible speedster replicas that I *thought* were available to me, I preferred one that had a better roof mechanism and actual windows that seal compared to the original andore accurate replicas, such as those made by HWSNBNA (He Who Shall Not Be Named Autos, AKA SAS) . That was one of the reasons I was attracted to HWSNBNA cars.
If I could find a somewhat reliable replica that I could take a road trip in but otherwise would be more weather dependent that was going to get me wet if it rained, I would still be interested because they are so classically beautiful."
Has anyone suggested you look for a used Intermeccanica? Power glass windows, and more closely fitting tops.
^^^^ What he said.
Yeah, I've been wondering why the "IM Faithful" (no slight intended, folks) hadn't chimed in on this. While I don't know if Intermeccanicas are totally leak free, they do seem to be a lot drier inside than the average Speedster replica and electric roll-up windows are the bomb, for sure. They may sell at a premium over the other brands, but they seem to be worth it for the dry interior and a lot of other popular features.
Something also to consider, is when something goes amiss or you need a replacement part, pretty much anything on an IM can be quickly identified and a source found, while on the SAS you first have to identify the part, figure out if it's a Porsche, VW, Subaru or custom Hot Rod part, then find a source and see if you can get a replacement. Lawing had a habit of either using eccentric Hot Rod or Custom parts (he comes from the Hot Rod world, remember) or something he fabs up from other stuff. And when THAT fails you're in deep doo-doo.
Looking at Intermeccanicas, to me, seems like the most intelligent option.
@Gordon Nichols posted:Yeah, I've been wondering why the "IM Faithful" (no slight intended, folks) hadn't chimed in on this. While I don't know if Intermeccanicas are totally leak free, they do seem to be a lot drier inside than the average Speedster replica and electric roll-up windows are the bomb, for sure. They may sell at a premium over the other brands, but they seem to be worth it for the dry interior and a lot of other popular features.
Something also to consider, is when something goes amiss or you need a replacement part, pretty much anything on an IM can be quickly identified and a source found, while on the SAS you first have to identify the part, figure out if it's a Porsche, VW, Subaru or custom Hot Rod part, then find a source and see if you can get a replacement. Lawing had a habit of either using eccentric Hot Rod or Custom parts (he comes from the Hot Rod world, remember) or something he fabs up from other stuff. And when THAT fails you're in deep doo-doo.
Looking at Intermeccanicas, to me, seems like the most intelligent option.
Why don't the IM faithful chime in on this? Because nobody wants to be "that guy". Some of us are still a bit salty and reluctant to tout the virtues of IM, after being called shills for the company a few (well, many now) years back.
A new build is really, really long money now, but Gordon is right - looking at used ones is where I'd be headed if I was in the market.
To second what Stan says, I usually try to keep my opinions to myself.
I also don't want to be seen as descending from the mountain to preach to the masses.
Intermeccanicas are what they are.
Dead horse?
We all know IMs are great, even the early ones. As some of my compadres have said above, Convertible D’s are definitely drier inside than Speedsters but that’s the nature of the beast, even in the real Porsches.
And after reading David’s comments I believe he’s on the right track. I am glad fellow forum members saved him from being another SAS victim. Many years ago, an ex member here called Steve who was an airline pilot by trade, and whom I met in person once, had a nice ivory SAS and loved it but regretfully it was totaled in an accident and he retired from the hobby. Hoss (Mr. Hallstrand), who I also met in person is the other guy who had his red one and was very happy with it. I wish Mr. Lawing would streamline his manufacturing process and improve his client satisfaction index because the cars he cranked out, when he did, were very very nice. Quite a large number of manufacturers (if not all of them) have jumped on the Subaru powertrain bandwagon since then. Maybe this will make it more possible for David to find his dream car that way.
That's true Ricardo, but it's an understatement as well. I have an IM speedster, and like all Vancouver IMs, it has rollup windows. I have driven through biblical-plague level thunderstorms. It's not a leak-proof car, but it's a completely different animal than the 2 pan-based car I had previously.
BTW, Steve is back on here - not posting nearly as much, but has a Subaru coupe on order from Greg.
That is great! Happy to hear that.
