Type IV Complete Engine for Sale

@Dave Mitchell

Dude.

I don't need an engine, but maybe I need THIS engine.

Hell of a price...

Chris Sutton posted:

I converted my speedster to electric last winter, and I'm selling the old engine, exhaust, Raby upright cooling kit, 15 gallon gas tank, dual Weber carbs.  Basically everything except the transmission.  There is about 4,000 miles on the engine.  Compression is a little low in one of the cylinders and it's burning oil, so probably a cracked ring in that cylinder.  Full details on my speedster build can be found here: http://chriskate.net/speedster/ with LOTS and LOTS of pictures.

The picture from when I was building things.  It's a little more dirty now, but everything is there.  The engine is a Type IV, 2056.

Looking for $2,000 for everything plus shipping.

Who did the electric conversion?

Do you have any pictures?

Click on the link he provided.  Very interesting and detailed build thread.  Well done!  Glad you didn't believe that 40 hour CMC build schedule.  You need a photo of your daughter driving it now!  I have photos of my son in a car seat watching me dismantle the donor car and clean the pan. (Argh, he'll be 30 in June this year).

Wish engine was closer to NW FL - exhaust $700, Raby T4 conversion kit $800, Carbs $600 - so $2k good deal.

I might also go electric since there are no experienced Air cooled mechanics in Australia 

Well you have enough sun that is for sure

Plenty of Sun

No experienced Air Cooled Mechanics in Melbourne 

Chris, I am interested.  Sent you a PM

Please read: http://chriskate.net/speedster/engine.html  It describes exactly what went into this engine way back in 2003 (glad I wrote all this down).

Another note for anyone interested in this engine.  There is no flywheel included.  I needed this for the EV conversion.  Also, there have been a number of questions on the specific internal details on the heads, cam, etc, etc.  I'm sorry, but I did all this and was really into the specs on things way back 15+ years ago, but I don't remember all the details and I didn't write them down anywhere.  Jake did a bunch of stuff, but I honestly don't remember all the details.

This is still available if anyone is interested.  The biggest question was around what CAM is in this engine.  If anyone has any good instructions on how to figure this out without taking the whole engine apart, I can try provide that info.

Hi chris, i offer you 1500$!

shipping - i would organize,

please let me know

pete

Sent you a private message pete.

Hi Chris did you end up selling this motor or is it still available?

I'm sure Jake would have all the details. He's very detailed!

JimmyV bought it - I hesitated too long!

I am waiting for the engine to arrive. My engine guy will be finished with the 2110 (now 2276) out of the Puma next week. It has brand new CB 44 IDF carbs, Mahle thick wall 94's with total seal rings, Engle 120 cam. full flowed case fully balanced rotating assembly. 9.5:1 CR. 044 ultra mag heads with 44/37.5 valves . He is telling me it will be a screamer 1500-6500 rpm 180Hp engine. Brand new A-1 sidewinder 1 5/8" exhaust. I hope I will have pics to post of the rebuilding process and the cam run in soon.  Not sure how I am going to proceed with Chris's Type IV. Thinking of maybe going a little bigger displacement on this, how about a 2.5L Type IV. If anyone has interest in ether engine the prices will be more reasonable than you would think. You can have some choices on the type IV build if you wish.

You wont need to go as big with the type4.  They have more torque by design.  A 2270 would be very punchy.  Pick up one of Jake Raby's cams if he is still selling them.

LennyC has a Raby 2270 type4. It has plenty of torque, and runs GREAT! Talk to him at Carlisle.

What stroke and bore makes a 2270 in a Type IV ? I have new 96mm P &C's already. 

So 96 mm bore with a 71 mm crank will give different displacements depending on length of connecting rods used -

https://lnengineering.com/type...-conversion-kit.html

You'll get 2056 cc with the 96 mm P&C with the stock 2L crank which has a throw of 71 mm with 5.160 connecting rods. 2270 cc is same with 5.325 connecting rods.

Rod length doesn't change displacement, it changes the rod ratio, which changes the location of the power band.

I think you are wrong. changing the length of the connecting rods only will not give you larger displacement. You need to go larger P&C's and or a crank with a longer stroke. I just don't know what the normal approach to get to 2270 is. Possibly going to 103 or 104 P&C's may be easier and cheaper than a stroker crank. I had a big Type IV in a Porsche with something just shy of 2.5L displacement and it was extremely fast and bullet proof. I can't remember the bore and stroke of the engine. Some guy in NJ that used to frequent a 914 forum built these big Type IV engines. He owned a shop that specialized in Bentley's. This was back in the late 1990's.  I would love to find this guy ,if he sounds familiar to anyone let me know. All of my old emails are long gone.

2270 cc does have 78 mm crank.

I'd rather have the stroker motor in a type4. More torque. 

Wolfgang:

What size Piston and cylinders do you use with the 78mm crank to make 2270? 96's or larger?

78 mm stroke x 96  mm piston= 2258 cc's

As Jimmy and Rick mentioned, changing connecting rod length doesn't change displacement, but it does affect the torque curve, although a lot of experienced engine builders feel .100-.200" either way (remember we're talking about 5 ¼- 5½" center to center lengths) doesn't do enough to really make much difference in a street engine.

THAT said- Type 4 engines are known to be quite torquey (in comparison to Type 1's) and they do use a somewhat shorter (131 mm I believe) vs 137 mm Type 1 rod (with a 69 mm crankshaft and 1300/1500/1600 cc displacement depending on piston size). I'm of the understanding VW's watercooled engines use appreciably shorter rods as well- I believe older Rabbit engines paired 80 mm cranks with 135 mm rods and Porsche used 135 mm rods with 74 mm cranks for all their later 356 and 912 engines. A popular combo in the very late '60's/early '70's was 82 mm cranks ground with Porsche spec rod journals and 356 or 912 rods in Type 1 high performance engines- you had to be careful which rods you used, though, as the earlier (less beefy) 356 rods had a habit of breaking with the longer stroke cranks at higher rpm's and making a real mess!

You would be extremely happy with a 78mm crank in the type 4.  I built a 2056 type 4 in my 914 and it was plenty fast and fun.  Keep the 71mm crank, and keep the 96mm bore.  Just balance everything, choose a good all around cam like a webcam 494...and spend your money on some good head work.  This combo will be very peppy and fun.

I thought the length of the rod dictates the location of where the piston will travel. I don't think it dictates the amount of torque or HP an engine will have. Example, if i build a type1 engine and use a 82mm crank and use the stock length rods the piston travel will start further out in the cylinder and travel out the end of the cylinder or crash into the head if it is installed. When stroking an engine the longer you go on the stroke this increased piston travel must be compensated by shorter rods and or shorter pistons. That is why you buy Piston and cylinder kits made to the crank  size you are using. The position and length of the cylinder doesn't change so when a crank that increases the length of the up and down piston travel is used things must be changed to compensate, this is accomplished by using short rods and short pistons. At the end of the day the travel of the piston must arrive at or near the top of the cylinder but not past the top of the cylinder. The piston can't travel too far down into the block either. Cylinder base shims are used to fine tune the piston top dead center to set the compression ratio. The other issue on rod length, as the cranks get into the larger stroke lengths (84-86mm) by having a rod that is too long takes the rotational angles into unfavorable territory and it develops high side pressure on the pistons and piston and crank bind. There are rod length and piston height formulas that work the best already figured out by engines builders that came before us, they have made the mistakes so we don't have too. If you call CB and tell them what size engine you want to build they will give you the correct rods and pistons for the crank you choose. 

 Yes there are those that have made longer than suggested rods work by using big spacers under the cylinder bases to move the cylinders further away from the crank. This is where you get into having the width of the engine increase and the stock cylinder tin has large gaps on each side where the tin should meet the fan shroud. This condition can't be kept from happening to some extent on the super long stroked engines. They sell filler blocks to fix this issue and keep the cooling air from escaping and causing an overheating issue. The need for longer head studs may occur as well. I have built a few engines and have learned this stuff as I went.

The heads were worked over by Jake Raby some ten years ago. I will see what was done to them when I receive the engine next week. I will post some pics. I have bought a new 200 mm conversion flywheel, pressure plate and clutch. The seller kept these parts to use on his EV conversion.

Most likely the heads were worked on or made by Len Hoffman...Rabys head guy.

See what happens when I fail to log in and check on things... I miss deals like this... would be a nice engine to put in my Pre-A Coupe I'm building... or attempting to build... LOL!

I received the Type IV engine today.  Chris must have driven on unpaved roads for most of his 4000 miles. Seeing how dirty the engine is makes my decision to have the engine completely rebuilt. In my experience driving in exclusively dusty environments make it all but impossible to keep the dirt from getting inside the crank case, heads and cylinders not to mention the sensitive Weber carbs. I spoke to my engine guy. I will drop the type IV off to him a week from now when I pick up the 2276 Type 1 he is in the process of finishing. 

 Thanks Chris for packing the engine so nicely and boxing up all the loose parts. 

I spent 6 hours today degreasing and cleaning the Raby Type 4 engine that I bought from Chris Sutton on this listing. I have never seen a dirtier engine. The engine and carbs were completely coated in dirt and oil, up to and over 1/16" in many areas. To clean the engine I first sealed all openings that would allow water and degreasing foam to enter inside the engine. I lifted the engine up on a fork lift and covered it with degreasing foam and let it sit the 15 minutes the instructions recommend. This loosened the sludge some. I then used an electric powered high pressure sprayer to attack the grime. It took 3 applications of degreaser and high pressure sprayer to blow away 95% or the dirt and grease. I then used a gun cleaning wire bore cleaner to scrub the hard to reach areas. I then did the same to the carbs. It may be hard to see from the pics but this engine was the dirtiest I have ever seen. It looked like it was in a flood and then buried for a length of time. I won't be surprised when I discover some level of dirt and sludge inside the engine. The carbs were filthy even inside the area under the air cleaners, so dirt was getting past the air filters.  I may have said this before but the Speedster must have been driven almost exclusively on dirt roads or flat out used for off road excursions. I feel better now that the engine is cleaner and ready to be rebuilt.  The 2276 Type 1 engine being built will be finished this week. I will install it in the Puma and she how it runs. It should really scream. I will keep you posted.

 The first pic below is an example of how dirty the engine was.

 PS. I  uncovered this stamped into the top front of the engine case "RAT2003032" I assume it means this was the 32nd engine Jake Raby had a hand in during 2003. I also uncovered interesting numbers stamped on each head, the right side head has 32.6 / 34. The left head has 32.2 / 34. Each number has the universal sign for diameter which is a circle with a leaning line thru it. If it is valve sizes why would one head have a valve that is .4 mm's smaller than the other, and the sizes would be way too small for valves. I am stumped on this. Looking into the intake ports it is easy to see that some nice porting work has been done which makes sense since Jake Raby built the heads. Anyone with info. concerning this (Chris Sutton maybe? ) It would be appreciated. All in all I think I got an amazing deal on this 2056 Type IV RAT engine.

Jimmy, Not to alarm you but dirt on the other side of the air cleaners usually points to a probable issue i.e. premature engine wear.  Since you are this far into it, I would at a minimum, do a leak down and compression test. ....  Carry on ~

@Alan Merklin posted:

Jimmy, Not to alarm you but dirt on the other side of the air cleaners usually points to a probable issue i.e. premature engine wear.  Since you are this far into it, I would at a minimum, do a leak down and compression test. ....  Carry on ~

I think Jimmy is planning on doing a full rebuild, Al.

I agree, this engine has ingested tons of dirt and needs a full rebuild which I am planning on doing. I wanted to get it in a cleaner condition before I take it to my engine guy in a week or so. I will pick up the Puma 2110 turned into a 2276 Type 1 engine and drop this baby off. It will save me some money to have the engine degreased. My guy charges by the hour not a flat fee. So far the engines he has rebuilt for me come out super reasonably priced. 

 The seller had in his listing that the engine had 4000 miles on it but had low compression in number 2 cylinder and was smoking a bit. He thought it was a broken ring? I now know that is unlikely. The engine is probably worn from the dirt that has been sucked into it. My original plan was to re jug and piston it and have the heads rebuilt and not crack the case open. That plan has changed. The last three engines I have had rebuilt all have flattened cams among other issues. Seems to be an epidemic. I know why Chris went to EV power now. Driving in such dusty conditions is hard on internal combustion engines unless you run a good oil bath air cleaner and keep the oil in it changed regularly.

Anyone know what the numbers stamped into the top of the Type 4 heads reworked by Jake Raby mean

?

@Jimmy V. Save some time and just call Jake direct. He keeps meticulous records on his builds. He is a great guy to work with...reach out you will be glad you did. 

RE: Jake. Please tell him I said hello. I'm still loving my motor!

Do not discuss any modifications you may be doing or anything at all like that. Just say you bought it and would like to know the particular specs of the build.

He's a great guy and a great builder.

Do you have his email address?

Around 2005 I had acquired two of Raby's Type IV engines that went into speedsters. They were perfect engines out of the crates and the customer support was as expected ...Jake's one good guy.

@Jimmy V. if you are on Instagram or Facebook just search Jake Raby. Send him a PM and he will get back to you. He once replied to me on a 911 engine build from a deer hunt blind...

I messaged Jake. I plan pull the heads and cylinders and look into the case to see how much of the dirt has gotten in and to look at the condition of the cam. Then the all of this will go to the engine builder next week. He is almost finished with the 2276 Puma engine.  I have added a pic for your viewing pleasure. I love looking at clean engines.

I just found 3 nice VDO engine monitoring gauges in the boxes of stuff Chris sent with the engine. The truth is I could part this engine out and double my money easily but hate to tear apart a nice engine. I will stick with getting it back to it's original torquey glory.

I have decided to take the heads off the type 4 engine. Everything I do lessens the cost that my engine guy will charge to rebuild the engine because he charges by the hour and he is very fair in the accounting. This engine which is a Raby kit built engine with heads that Jake Raby built. The heads are super nice with some porting work done and larger valves. Stainless steel 42mm Intake and 36mm exhaust. I went ahead and slipped no. 1 cylinder off and it looks very good. No scoring and some of the cross hatch still visible. I did find that the two top rings had the opening both lined up at the bottom which isn't ideal. Chris said that one of the cylinders had low compression and the engine was burning some oil. I measured the cam lift last night and it is .435" which may mean it has something like a Webcam 86A grind with 290 duration. The inside of the engine looks great and is nice and clean so the dirt and dust didn't affect it much. The cam lobes look perfect and the lift is nearly identical from valve to valve. I may get by with a top end build and have a super nice type 4 engine. I am very happy with what I am seeing now. 

 While writing this a huge storm has blown in. (I live 25 miles west of Louisville Ky.) and is dropping some serious hail. My poor Crossfire SRT-6 is stuck out in it. The transformer near my house just blew and my trusty natural gas powered generator has kicked on and switched my home over to generator power. I had to have this generator because my basement will flood if the sump pump isn't running, ask me how I know this.

 More to come on the engine.  Enjoy some engine ****.

Hail makes for good engine building weather.

By the way I did notice where it looks like a valve has kissed the top of cylinder 1 piston. I will make sure the intake valve is checked closely for straightness.

Does anyone know the stock valve sizes for a 1.7, 1.8 and the 2.0L 914 Type 4 engines?

I don't, but I will wager not as big as what's in there.

Pieced together from Pelican site -

1.7 I-39mm/E-33mm

1.8 I-41/E-36

2.0 I-42/E-38

I had a ,72 1.7L 914 and was told the stock exhaust valves were sodium filled.

The exhaust valves sure look like a different material compared to the intakes. The info. I found shows the 2.0 heads had 42/36 as mine have. According to Chris the PO, the heads started life as 1.8 heads and were worked over at Air cooled tech.  I would need to get pics of the 2.0 and 1.8 heads to verify. The 2.0 heads are always supposedly better because they have relocated spark plug holes to give improved and complete combustion burn. From what I read they are good for 10 additional HP over reworked 1.8 heads. This engine was marketed by Raby as a 130HP/140 torque engine. Their 2270 engine was a 150HP and the 2356 was a 180hp. I am tempted to have my engine guy turn this into a monster 2356 engine. I had one in a lightened 914 auto X car years ago and it was bullet proof and fast as hell. I may be satisfied to run it in the Puma and not convert to Subaru.

 Mike from Special Edition just called me and he will be stopping by my house around 5 o'clock this afternoon to see if he can figure out why my Suby Speedster won't run. If we can't figure it out he may be taking it to there shop in a couple of weeks when he comes back through from Chuck Beck's shop with a load of chassis.

@WOLFGANG posted:

Pieced together from Pelican site -

1.7 I-39mm/E-33mm

1.8 I-41/E-36

2.0 I-42/E-38

I had a ,72 1.7L 914 and was told the stock exhaust valves were sodium filled.

Wow, Wolf you can really search out for info... good on you. 

It would make sense that the exhaust valves in a RAT Type 4 would be 36 mm (and not 38 mm) if the intakes were 42 mm.

A while back, a really smart guy over on TheSamba (Glen Urban, or "Modok") posted a "golden rule" of engine design regarding I/E (intake/exhaust) ratio.

.86 is kind've the magic number for things to play nicely together. There are deviations, of course, meant to accomplish one thing or another. I'm not sure if these rules apply to all engines in general, or to pushrod air-cooled engines in particular, but I'm assuming that ideal always falls within a mathematical range.

Anyhow... as per Glen, the ideal exhaust valve is 86% of the intake valve size. The exhaust port is 86% of the exhaust valve size. The exhaust port ID would be 86% of exhaust header tube ID. On the intake side, the ideal intake port size is 86% of the intake valve size, and the ideal venturi size in the carburetor would be 86% of the carburetor bore, with runners that are 86% of the intake riser/carb bore. 

When you apply the math to formulas that are known to work well, they pencil out almost every time.

In this scenario, a head with a 42 mm intake valve would ideally have a 36 mm exhaust valve. The exhaust port cross-section would be about 31 mm, and the header ID would be the same size as the valve (36 mm, which is incidentally about the I/D of 1-5/8" 16 ga. exhaust pipe).

The intake port would be .86 of 42 mm (36.12 mm), and the venturi in the carb would match this dimension (or exactly the standard size of a stock vent in a 44 IDF).

Stuff like this fascinates me. The further down the wormhole one dives, the more it becomes clear that we live in an orderly universe with general rules that just work (see @Sacto Mitch's explanation as to why a V12 sounds so good).

To my way of looking it, God (rather than the devil) is in the details.

That is amazing thanks for that info. Do you know what the numbers shown in the pics attached mean? Would it be the port diameters for each? 

I just looked up an article about the type 4 head types and it said the 2.0 heads unique to the 914 and the 76/912 had valve sizes of 42/36 not 38. Portion of article below:

When Porsche introduced the 2.0L Type 4 engine in 1973, it featured a unique head design that was only used on 2.0 914/4s and the 1976 912E. This cylinder head features a unique spark plug location, the largest valve combination (42mm intake, 36mm exhaust), and a unique combustion chamber shape. The quickest and easiest way to distinguish a 914/912E 2.0 head is by the three intake manifold studs; all other Type 4 heads had 4 intake studs. These studs are readily visible in both of these pictures. Another item to note is the angle of the spark plug and how it differs from the other Type 4 heads.

My heads have 4 intake manifold studs and I was told the heads are 1.8 heads that were reworked by Jake Raby. Thus the larger valves and the porting work.

BTW...The dimple in the top of the valve indicated that it is a sodium filled material.  Use all stainless valves and get rid of the sodium filled valves.

Does anyone know what brand the pistons in the pics are? I assume they are cast and not forged because of the parting lines inside showing they were cast and not hammer forged. 

A very basic web search revealed they are Keith Black pistons. They should say SL on one side and KB on the other.

Also, on the piston ring issue: I install with the compression ring gaps forward and backward(9 and 3 o'clock), oil ring up(noon). Other methods abound, but oil ring up is always good.

Thanks Danny, I did a quick search and didn't get any results. I for some reason missed the KB of the side. I focused on the LS. I believe the pistons are the cast  Hypereutectic aluminum alloy and not forged, which seem to work fine in all but the most extreme situations. I have used Keith Black forged pistons on hot Corvair turbo engines so it is funny that I didn't recognize the pistons. Thanks again for the help Danny! 

No problem, Jimmy. Just sorry we won't be hanging together in a month........

I am playing with the idea of building this type 4 out to a 2.6L or larger engine. 

Just hung up the phone with Bill the engine builder and he is ordering the parts today to make the type 4 I bought from Chris Sutton into a 2786cc torque monster that will develop over 220 ft/lbs of torque at 3500 rpm. The build will consist of 104 P&C's and a 82mm crank. It should really push the soon to be engineless Puma down the road. Stay tuned.