Super 90 Info

Anyone got any links to super 90 engine spec's or super 90 engine building books??

I decided to learn some more about the super 90 heads, valve train and rocker arms.

Barry---good for you. ai have some Porsche documents that show the Super Speedster engine had a Hirth crank, higher compression, "sports camshaft" and larger carbs all of which produced 88 bhp.

The Carerra engine had twin camshafts, twin spark plugs(a la Lycoming and Continental aircraft engines), and dry sump lubrication---it produced 115 bhp.

A "tame" type IV from Jake Raby will have 2200 ccs, 140 bhp and eat Carerra engines for lunch.

---But there is certainly romance with a Carrerra car or engine. Good luck on your interesting quest.

This book...

http://www.amazon.com/ABCS-Porsche-Engines-Harry-Pellow/dp/0941210049

Although it must be out of print and now it looks like folks are gouging...was only about $30 when I bought it. Lots of pictures and lots of discussion between the models and Pellows has a unique way of writing.

Pellow web-site:
http://www.maestroslibrary.com/

The S90 (88hp) was from 1582cc. The TIV's 140 bhp is from 2200cc. So the S90 is 56 bhp/l (50 years ago) and the TIV is 64 bhp/l. Didn't the way hp was measured change too? My 5k pound V6 'Yota 4Runner is only 60 bhp/l (4L 240 bhp).

Porsche won the 24hr of LeMans in early 50's with a 1.3 liter engine. (1st attempt the year prior was with a 1.1 liter; proved to be too anemic for competition)

Jack, if memory serves me correctly, you've confused a S90 engine with a Carrera engine. A Carrera engine or Type 547 developed by Ernst Furhman originally had an outsourced "Hirth" pressed fit roller crankshaft. Later years they switched to a crank of their own design with plain bearings as it was incredibly difficult to separate the crank to replace roller bearings. In addition, the type 547 engine had (4), gear driven camshafts and 2 distributors. Engines produced for mid engine cars had the distributors exiting off the 2 upper cylinder heads on the flywheel side and engines produced for rear engine cars had the distributors on the pulley side. These engines didn't start producing power until 3,500 or 4,000 RPM and were considered a high RPM engine. (just about any modified VW engine of 2 liters or more has more power than a 4 cam but the 4 cam engine could run all day at 6,500-7,000 RPM's )

The S90 engine was a modified normal engine with some valve train, head and carb work. At the time, it was the hot rod engine.

Later life of the 356, they changed engine designations to C and SC, the SC produced more power than the "C" engine.

Well I have no problem with learning more about the Carrera.as well.

I also was under the impresson they are diffent animals. For now I just want to study the Super 90 1500 cc 356 A engine ..

The Carrea was a 125 hp engine very rare and expencive.

(OUT OF MY LEAGE) budjet wise.

I have been watching videos and taking note of what they sound like ans how even the S90 had more pop than most stroked VW engines .

I want to study and see what's different.

The Porsche 4 cylinder engine was a 3 piece unit with a cam gear cover and engine halves. The early Super90 engine had a counterweighted crank, sodium filled push rods and Solex P40-11 carbs. Porsche heads also have rectangular exhaust ports which helps in the exhaling department.

I don't have all the differentiating details down, like some here do, but I do know a Carrera and an S90 were different in many ways, the roller crank being chief among them. I had a S90 for a while, and its main difference vs a Super included larger valves, (exhausts were sodium filled), differnt heads, different pistons (higher compression ratio) and what was called alloy cylinders, vs cast iron. Also had 40 PIIC dual Solexes, I believe. Said cylinders were nickle-chrome coated and dimpled to hold oil, and so allowed running the engine for long periods at racing conditions. Brand new, these cylinders used about a quart in 500 mi. One fine day (in '68, it was) while running up a very long incline to reach the top of the Blue Ridge mtns, the engine went funny, and soon enough I realized I had burned an exhaust valve. So fixing that gave me an opportunity to reconsider the deal. At recommendation of the shop, I replaced the valves and I put in Super pistons and cylinders and kept the S90 heads. Lost a little in compression, but gained a whole lot in terms of reliability and oil consumption. I really did not notice a difference in the scoot quotient. Barry, if it would be of interest to you, or any of the others here, I still, to this day, have the pistons and cylinders that came out of that S90 engine. I heard that one could bore out the cylinder and resleeve it with a cast iron sleeve and get the benefit of the alloy cooling fins, but not have the aggravation of the dimpled ni-chrome. Obviously, the ni-chrome could not be bored and/or honed to refurbish them. They were a one-time deal. Anybody want to have these parts? And if so, why? Could they be used in a Type I or Type IV build?? You'd have to do the resleeving, as mentioned. Whaddaya think?

The Carrera or Type 547 engine is totally different from a Normal, S90, C, SC or 912 engine. The Carrera had 4 cams, 2 distributors, 4 valve covers and a totally different fan shroud.

And in addition to what Larry said, A dual entry fan to go with that unique shroud, a dry sump oil system, a TOTALLY different case, and 9 shafts and 13 bevel gears to run the camshafts. Not even close to a pushrod motor.

Yelp !I agree the 4 Cammer is a work of art. And so few were made it's worth a ment $$$.. I just wanted to see how the S-90 heads are made And to see if they can be made to fit a vw engine. I already know a S-90 crank will go in one .I have seen that done..

I wonder How Jake is doing with his idea to make a 4 cammer type of a fanshroud for the T-4.. I also have been looking forward to seeing one..

As far as building one Now,.. In these hard times. I'm now doutful.. Also my Busness is ready to go But i have not had even a single inquirey Into the Autowire Installer thing.. It looks kind-a bleek!

Barry,

The S-90 was a 1600 and the first production year was 1960. The 356 and VW motors are compleatly different and other than a very few things do not interchange parts.

The 60, 75 and 90 Hp versions of the pushrod motor were compression, carburation, intake size and cam timing changes for the most part. The S-90 heads had the largest intake valves. The SC/912 heads actually work better because they have a slghtly smaller intake than the S-90 but have a bigger exhaust valve and are the best ones to use on a 356 motor.

The reason the 356 motors built more Hp than the VW was as much about the bore/stroke as it was the duel carbs and head design that was different from the VW.

With so many good crankshafts on the market, I don't see an advantage in using a Porsche carnkshaft, even if it does fit.

A stock VW 1600cc engine is actually 1,584cc's with 85.5mm pistons and a 69mm stroke. A stock 1600cc Porsche engine is actually 1,582 cc's with 82.5mm pistons and a 74 mm crank.

VW crankshafts can be purchased that accept either Porsche rods or VW rods. The Porsche rods are superior to the VW rods and have different size rod journals.

In addition, so many different cylinder heads are available that will out perform a Porsche cylinder head. If memory serves me, the pushrod tube spacing is way different than a VW and won't work on a VW case.

I don't know how you could/would adapt 356 engine hard parts to VW. When I rebuilt my 912 I looked into this as Porsche parts are so expensive compared to VW. Basically, the way In understood it, 356 heads were like aftermarket VW head with increase valve sizes and the valve train, the rockers, already had the increased ratio that you get in aftermarket VW's. that and I think Porsche paid a lot of attention to tolerances and balancing...more than VW.

I'd like to figure out how to use the often Orange FRAM 356 oil filter canister that is on their cooling shroud but with an internal spin on modern filter (vs the messy canister insert) with a T1 and full flow system. This would be to get the old vintage look vs the spin on filter in the rear wheel well. I have a nice chromed one (with right patina) - just need to add some MANN decals.

Dusty made a small tool holder out of his canister. It looks like the real deal, but it's a storage compartment.

I didn't know Jack Daniels was considered a tool... :)

Wolfgang<

Don't wast your time with the 356 Canister filter. While it is better than nothing all it does is bypass about 15% of the oil because it just takes out of one spot near the oil sender and it enters in another part of the same oil galley. To make a 356 live there are several different ways to do it one involves having the timing cover machined to fully bypass the oil out of the pump and back into the motor like it should be done. Another is to replace the oil pump cover with a full flow filter/oil pump cover combo.