I have a 1994 Intermeccanica project. 1963 VW chassis. Car has been in storage since 2001 in Monterey, CA.  It has a bad #4 cylinder and needs a refresh. I have seen other cars with motors from 1600 to 2276. What is the forums opinion of a good motor size for this car that retains the heater. 

Original Post

How much can you afford?- it's a slippery slope.  Go really big and you are re-using just the tin and some of the bolts.  If other parts are still good then 87-88 mm P&C (1641/1679 cc) for under $300 (parts) or a 1914 cc (commonly called a 1915)  would be $600 (base) but requires complete disassembly and machining of heads/case to 94 mm cylinders.  Other combinations take a new crank followed by P&C, cam, heads, and carb (plus larger diameter heat exchangers).

The best bang for the buck is the 1915cc, it's the biggest cc engine you can do w/o turning your attention to heat issues that require add'l cooling and add'l money.  Balance the crank , rods and flywheel as an assembled unit, full flow the dual relief case, 120 camshaft, Good piston - cylinder set, remote oil filter, decent heads , dual carbs ( dual German Solex's with chokes are the best for this size engine and finish it off with a decent exhaust system.

To retain stock heater boxes on a 1600 based engine you have to stay with the stock (35x32 mm) valve sizes. Stock heads are only capable of 85 or so hp so a 1915 cc engine that's set up to rev to 5,000 rpm (Engle W100 cam, 34 Ict dual carburetors, 1 3/8" exhaust, 8¼- 8½:1 compression) would be about the limit. You could build it larger but the engine will run out of breath (and not really rev any higher) at a correspondingly lower rpm. I have never built an engine combination like this to try it, but my experience tells me this is about the limit with stock heater boxes.

That said, this engine in almost any Speedster would make a fun, zippy around town car (especially with a 4.37 or 4.12 ring & pinion equipped transaxle). I'm going to pose this question to a friend who is much more knowledgeable than me- more later.  Al

PS- I'm assuming by heater you're talking about the stock heater boxes- please correct me if I'm wrong...

It starts with a philosophy of use (POU). What type of driver are you? How do you envision driving the car? Do you want to row fast and spin the motor to 6-7K? Do you want a street motor that you row from 2nd to 4th all day in the city? Or something in between? I have both a 1600 and a 2276. Not an apples to apples comparison because the 1600 is in a 912 and the 2276 is in the Vintage Speedster. I prefer to drive a slow car fast and the 912 fits that POU perfectly - it is a momentum car and time seems to stand still when ever I drive it. And that is a good thing.

The Vintage with the 2276 however, is quite the opposite. The 2276 is a lazy mans car that has momentum in any gear. Though it falls on it's face after 5K, I have a large area under the curve and it pulls through the gears pretty QUICK. The ride can be over just like that. The 2276 is surprisingly fast says my buddy with the Tesla 3. But sometimes I wish I had a 1600 in it. Good luck with the project!

I have two off-road desert cars with tube chassis, high performance, stroked, ported, high compression 2276's that are max'd out. I am aware of the cost to build these motors and what they can produce throwing $$$$ at them.  

But, this is a different car for me, one that I am at the moment unfamiliar with, this is a shortened 1963 vw pan with a tube chassis that is welded into the rear area. I have  a spare 2276/ 8.5/1 compression motor but I been told that is to much motor for these cars or I would swap it in and change out the all of the brakes to disc. Front is on order now.

I am looking for the right size motor for this type of car, want to retain the heater but still want drivability and performance. I have had the following motor sizes suggested to me 1776, 1835, 1904 and 1915 suggested. Since it needs to run on pump gas I believe that I need to be around 7:50/1 compression using a  Engle 100 cam.

Car currently has dual baby Weber's 34's , not a big fan so far. My other carss have dual weber 44's and dual Delorto's which I believe are 45's. Unsure of the size of the motor currently as I have not pulled it yet. 

I am looking for good street performance and drivability. Thoughts?

You'll find every different size of motor in these cars. The majority being 1915 or below due to a variety of reason. Then there's the rest of us for which nothing other than HP will suffice. Starting at 150 hp 2210's on up to I think a 2376 that someone on here is running. There may be larger but I can't think of what size it would be. And lastly there is the crowd that went water cooled Subaru and will probably never look back. As ZFNHSN stated, decide how you want to drive it and build it from there. You can drive a fast car slow and you can drive a slow car fast but I think you'll reach your limits much faster and might grow bored if spirited driving is what you seek. Top down, star gazing, bird watching, wine tasting, sunny days and cool nights with the rest of the world passing you by is okay then there's no need to go big.

Can't help you with the heater portion, because I don't run one in my 2276 in S. Cal. A 2276 is not too much motor for these cars IMHO. I'm running high lift narrow LSA Web86B cam, 1.25 ratio rockers and 9.5:1 compression, dual Weber 44s, LWFW and 4sp. I don't over heat or have any pinging on 91 octane. The engine came out of a sand-railer and I had a local VW outfit go through it before it went into the Speedster. The local builder BTW holds all if not most of the current 1/8, 1/4 mile aircooled VW records and so they know how to build a motor. I did swap out the Porsche OEM Fuchs with Porsche OEM Steel wheels and I'm happy that I have the extra HP because those steel wheels are HEAVY! I do mean what I said about a 1600 or even a 1915. A smaller, more peaky higher revving engine compared to my 2276 would change the character of the Speedster so much that it would fell like an entirely  different car - in a good way.

If I had to do it over again? Maybe a Suby :ducking out of the way:

Assuming my role as the village idiot and the object of cautionary tales, I’ve got some experience here (most of it bad). I’ve had just about every permutation of Type 1 engine from a bottom feeding 1776 to a 200 hp 2332 sitting in the back of the car. There are plenty of avenues to dork this up, and because I’m hardheaded, I’ve headed down most of them before turning around.

I’ve presently got a 2276 dry-sumped and twin-plugged (for extra complexity’s sake). It’s kinda’ cool in a “what’s he smoking?” sort of way— but for my money, a 2110 with good heads, a W120 with 40s, and a 1-1/2” 4 into 1 header is the Goldilocks-zone.

1-1/2” heater boxes are widely available and EMPI now has 1-5/8 boxes, so I wouldn’t let stock boxes limit me in any way. I’d get a remote oil cooler with a bypass thermostat and a fan switch. There’s room to get fancier if you want, but this is by far the most bang for the buck. 

That’s my opinion, and my wife tells me I assume that everybody  is entitled to it. 

The big limiter here, guys, is Neil wanting to keep the stock heater boxes. Talk of ANYTHING that makes more hp than the heater boxes can support is a waste of time, hence the combination I proposed above. Neil, if you're not crazy about the Ict's then substitute some 40 (or better yet, 36 mm if you can find them) Webers or Dellortos and away you go.

NeilM posted:

Any feed back on valve size and heads. The off-road car motors I have are big bore valve heads. Is this needed in the a speedster motor or standard heads in 1776 to 1915 will be okay?

No, big valve heads are not needed in a Speedster (although they do make the whole experience so much more fun! ). An engine with bigger valves (and the appropriate port work) does have the potential to make substantially more power, of course, but the the components in any size engine have to work together to produce the flow and rpm's for said engine to hit a target hp.

A 1776, 1835 or 1915 with the parts I suggested in my above post will be a blast to drive, having 50% or more power than a stock 1600. Most Speedsters weigh about the same as a stock Beetle so that increase in power will be noticed!  I remember 45 years ago building my first performance engine (1641 with most of the same components as I've suggested above) and the difference in my stock '67 Beetle (it had stock size radials) was astounding. And your Speedster would be an absolute hoot with a 2276 (handling and braking upgrades will be required to make it a safe car), but then if you want it to rev much past 4,000 rpm it won't have stock heater boxes, so you have choices to make... Al

Is your car swingaxle or irs? Do we get to see pics?

ALB posted:

The big limiter here, guys, is Neil wanting to keep the stock heater boxes. Talk of ANYTHING that makes more hp than the heater boxes can support is a waste of time, hence the combination I proposed above.

Stan Galat posted:

 1-1/2” heater boxes are widely available and EMPI now has 1-5/8 boxes, so I wouldn’t let stock boxes limit me in any way. 

 Heat isn't a limiter anymore. I wouldn't run stock boxes on anything more than a 1600, but that's just me.

NeilM posted:

I have a 1994 Intermeccanica project. 1963 VW chassis. Car has been in storage since 2001 in Monterey, CA.  It has a bad #4 cylinder and needs a refresh. I have seen other cars with motors from 1600 to 2276. What is the forums opinion of a good motor size for this car that retains the heater. 

Neil...just for starts please. How is your car registered ? IM stopped making VW chassis cars previous to 1994. 

I have a '63 VW pan. My 2276 doesn't seem to overwhelm the chassis.  I will follow up in six more months however

Again, no heater for me. Web 86b, 105 LSA, 42/37.5 valves on 040 heads. My deck height is not 'optimal' but I had 45cc heads to work with. I have no issues with low end response, overheating and driveabiliry  

I do think a smaller motor would be more in the spirit of what these cars were designed to run with the available technology back in the day. 

@NeilM-  If you can drop the heat requirement, then yeah, your spare 2276 (as long as it will run on pump gas) will be a blast in your Speedster. Depending on the combination/ how high it revs with power, a 1 1/2 or 1 5/8" exhaust (a number of guys here run the "sidewinder" style to keep everything compact) will be the right size. As I said before, make sure the chassis is set up (good shocks and anti-sway bars or camber compensator if the car is swingaxle) and it can stop. Do you know what caster shims are? (a hint- they're very important for predictable handling at above highway speeds (and maybe even at highway speeds depending on how the front was lowered).

ZFNHSN posted:

I have a '63 VW pan. My 2276 doesn't seem to overwhelm the chassis.  I will follow up in six more months however

Again, no heater for me. Web 86b, 105 LSA, 42/37.5 valves on 040 heads. My deck height is not 'optimal' but I had 45cc heads to work with. I have no issues with low end response, overheating and driveabiliry  

I do think a smaller motor would be more in the spirit of what these cars were designed to run with the available technology back in the day. 

You must be running, what, somewhere around .125- .140" deck to make those heads live on the street? And while your last statement does have some merit, these are replicas (so you can really do anything you want), and if you've set it up to be the best driver possible then bigger really is better!

Unless you're copying a factory build who really gives a sh*t?

Yoda out (for now, but back you know I will be!)

 

ZFNHSN posted:

I have a '63 VW pan. My 2276 doesn't seem to overwhelm the chassis.  I will follow up in six more months however

I do think a smaller motor would be more in the spirit of what these cars were designed to run with the available technology back in the day. 

Yes, a smaller engine is more in keeping with the original cars, but who wants that?  A 1600 cc won't keep you up with modern traffic, and it's a waste of money.  Your 2276 is just right.    Good choice.

Bob: IM S6 posted:
ZFNHSN posted:

I have a '63 VW pan. My 2276 doesn't seem to overwhelm the chassis.  I will follow up in six more months however

I do think a smaller motor would be more in the spirit of what these cars were designed to run with the available technology back in the day. 

Yes, a smaller engine is more in keeping with the original cars, but who wants that?  A 1600 cc won't keep you up with modern traffic, and it's a waste of money.  Your 2276 is just right.    Good choice.

Once, in a fit of defensiveness, I opined (at great length) that a 1776 most accurately replicated the original ethos of the 1600 Super, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

That was a long time ago for me. I don't give a rat's patootie about replication at this point. Do what makes you happy. More power makes me happier. The tough part is knowing how far is too far, with regards to reliability and heat management.

If I were doing this again, with cost as no object-- there's no question what I'd do: 2270 Type 4, dry-sumped. That would be sweet. But as my last name is not Gates or Bezos, and as I'm still out here in the salt mines-- a 2110 is the Type 1 sweet spot.

Stan Galat posted:
Bob: IM S6 posted:
ZFNHSN posted:

I have a '63 VW pan. My 2276 doesn't seem to overwhelm the chassis.  I will follow up in six more months however

I do think a smaller motor would be more in the spirit of what these cars were designed to run with the available technology back in the day. 

Yes, a smaller engine is more in keeping with the original cars, but who wants that?  A 1600 cc won't keep you up with modern traffic, and it's a waste of money.  Your 2276 is just right.    Good choice.

Once, in a fit of defensiveness, I opined (at great length) that a 1776 most accurately replicated the original ethos of the 1600 Super, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

That was a long time ago for me. I don't give a rat's patootie about replication at this point. Do what makes you happy. More power makes me happier. The tough part is knowing how far is too far, with regards to reliability and heat management.

If I were doing this again, with cost as no object-- there's no question what I'd do: 2270 Type 4, dry-sumped. That would be sweet. But as my last name is not Gates or Bezos, and as I'm still out here in the salt mines-- a 2110 is the Type 1 sweet spot.

@Stan Galat  yap Amen. Sweet spot is the magic words 👍😎👌

1835-1915cc is a solid replica engine for slow driving. 

For the purist, or those who love to get their hands on the carbs a 2110cc is really a nice engine having lived with one for 5 years.  

It is a well rounded engine for the car. The torque is pretty good but once you tasted of the new wine,  the subaru wine, you want more so Marty moved up to a second Subie, a turbo,  why would you go back It is just so new wine and spirited and fun. 

175hp stock, 180hp with the exhaust and breather being opened and pretty much torque from the get go in a NA.  Pretty addictive.  

I seem to be in the minority here, but I chose a 1776 cc engine when I built my car.  (a "bottom feeder" engine as Stan describes it... )  My interest in a Speedster is the old technology.  I love old machinery/equipment.  I have an old 2 cylinder JD Model A, old Atlas lathe, old milling machines, etc.  I love anything that is pre-1970 technology!  Also, I wanted dependability with a little extra performance.  But at the end of the day, we have cars that were built by 1950-60 standards.  So, to be a little more "authentic", I wound up with a 1776 with a W100 cam, balanced rotating assembly, larger heads, full flow, external oil filter, 34 ICT Webers, 8½:1 compression and Vintage Speed exhaust.  It is perfect for me.  It has been very reliable, no heat issues (even in the Texas summer) and a lot of fun.  With a 4.38 IRS trans it is quick off the line and is still good at 70-75 mph. 

It's a personal decision based on your interests.  Don't get me wrong, I like power, but this car is more about the novelty and nostalgia for me.  I am currently trying to talk my wife into an early C3, 4-speed Corvette for a little more power.  But, not to get rid of my Speedster!  

IaM-Ray posted:

1835-1915cc is a solid replica engine for slow driving. 

For the purist, or those who love to get their hands on the carbs a 2110cc is really a nice engine having lived with one for 5 years.  

It is a well rounded engine for the car. The torque is pretty good but once you tasted of the new wine,  the subaru wine, you want more so Marty moved up to a second Subie, a turbo,  why would you go back It is just so new wine and spirited and fun. 

175hp stock, 180hp with the exhaust and breather being opened and pretty much torque from the get go in a NA.  Pretty addictive.  

@IaM-Ray PM you for Subie question

Anything 2 liters or over (the various combos are too numerous to list, but more is better!) is so much fun in these cars. As Stan (and I think someone else) said above, with ported 40x35 mm heads (Panchitos are the flavor of the month) cam/rocker combo with 250-255° @ .050" duration/ close to ½" lift, 9:1 compression, 1 1/2" exhaust for 2,000-2100 cc's and 1 5/8" for 2276, and 44IDF's or 45Del's is a really great combo. It will rev to 6,000 rpm with power, produce 140-160 hp, have fantastic bottom end/lower midrange torque ( where we do 95 or 97% of our driving), get really decent mileage (as long as you've taken the time to jet and tune it properly and you're not driving it like a raped ape from the moment the key is turned 'till it's shut off), last almost as long (again, driving style will be the major factor) and be almost as easy to take care of as a stock 1600. An engine like this can be driven anywhere, any time!

A couple of caveats- anything over 2 liters seems to need an extra cooler (preferably thermostatically controlled so the engine still warms up quickly and doesn't cause premature wear) in these cars and attention to airflow into the engine compartment will be required- these things are air (as well as oil) cooled, afterall , bigger engines ingest a lot of air and not getting it right means overheating and premature death. The aquarium air tube/water glass vacuum test and a remote thermometer in the engine compartment itself are very helpful and will tell you when you've got it right. In his technical writings Gene Berg tells of a kit car with no air intake into the engine compartment at all (his words) killing engines in as little as 4,000 miles!

I have been at Carlisle 3 years in a row and I have seen quite a few cars from different manufacturers and home built.   I have appreciated the time and energy spent doing up the cars and there is room for every flavour I would say and because no one is able to try all the permutations of these cars the continual upgrade path is a given.  

Even guys with IM-6's usually had a few other cars before they went to the max version of their car... isn't that right @Bob: IM S6    

Unfortunately, the maker is no longer doing IC engines so wherever we are at, north of the 49th,  is where we get to stay unless you find something used or build it yourself. 

 

Stan Galat posted:

If I were doing this again, with cost as no object-- there's no question what I'd do: 2270 Type 4, dry-sumped. That would be sweet. But as my last name is not Gates or Bezos, and as I'm still out here in the salt mines-- a 2110 is the Type 1 sweet spot.

I looked into a 2270 T4 build in that same spec a few years ago. it would have been bullet proof, but it was $$$ as you mentioned.

ALB posted:
You must be running, what, somewhere around .125- .140" deck to make those heads live on the street?

ALB, you got it. Can you believe .130? I'm thinking about going from 1.25 to 1.4 ratio rockers because I added 80 lbs total rotational weight (+20 lbs each axle). Porsche OEM raised ten slot Lemmerz wheels are HEAVY

ZFNHSN posted:
ALB posted:
You must be running, what, somewhere around .125- .140" deck to make those heads live on the street?

ALB, you got it. Can you believe .130? I'm thinking about going from 1.25 to 1.4 ratio rockers because I added 80 lbs total rotational weight (+20 lbs each axle). Porsche OEM raised ten slot Lemmerz wheels are HEAVY

I've heard of other guys doing the same thing with wickedly flycut heads that were formerly on race engines and although not optimal on the street, it can work. Some engines with big deck height will ping at the very top of the rpm range. As long as you don't rev it right to the very top constantly you'll probably be fine.

When fully warmed up, how high does the engine go with power when accelerating in 3rd gear? I always suggest doing it in 3rd because it's easier to feel when the engine stops making power than in 1st or 2nd. I'm asking because I'm curious as to how the 105° LC 86B runs- at 108° it's very similar to an Engle FK8, making power to about 6500. So where does yours stop?

1.4 rockers would be a great addition- they'll allow you to get more of the power the heads are capable of. You might have to do new pushrods as well, though, so if you're doing the work yourself you'll be learning all about setting up rocker arm and pushrod geometry for best life.

And I know the oe Lemmerz wheels are heavy, but at 20 lbs each axle that's 40 lbs, right? The Fuchs you took off weigh 11 (5½) or 12 lbs (6" wide) and the steel wheels should weigh in the neighborhood of 22 lbs? Still, you're right, they are heavy. Put those alloys back on! The car looks so great with them.

 I apologize now because I know you've told me before, but what's your first name? And call me Al

Subi-guys: y’all realize that in today’s world, 175 hp is pretty tame, right? I understand the superiority of the platform (vs. Type 1), etc.— but just for perspective, there’s a Ford dealer in Ohio bolting superchargers on new Mustang GTs (which bumps them up to 800 hp), and then selling them for $40k.

We’re all kinda’ cute with our clown cars, talking about the nuances of our various air and water cooled lawnmower engines.

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