An interesting fire suppression system

Interesting. Would love to see a video of it in action...

Are the zip ties high heat resistant?  If the heat gets enough to melt the hose which releases the agent, what's to stop the heat from melting the zip ties first thus causing the hose to fall wherever it pleases?

I too would worry about the effectiveness of this system.  I just installed a Safecraft automatic sysem in my engine bay (as used by IM).  The Safecraft unit discharges at 286 degrees F. and, being metal, gives me more confidence than this plastic arrangement.

Safecraft says it is good for a long time, as long as the guage stays in the 'green'.

Clever idea - just wonder if that's enough "gas" to extinguish a gas fire.  With a sealed engine compartment it might just be.  

$225!

mine was like $60

So is this "clean agent" pressurized within the hose and it just all blows out wherever the heat melts the hose first?

Christian makes a great point, is the melt temperature of the anchoring zip ties higher than that of the hose containing the extinguishing "clean agent"?

At first glance, I'm not impressed. Any experiences with this, anybody? Bueller, Bueller?

THOSE ZIP TIES ARE EVENTUALLY GOING TO GIVE WAY

The only extinguishing agent is contained within the length of the tube itself, that’s not enough volume. Like any decnet fire extinguisher, you need capacity.  The bigger the better.  With no additional agent reservoir, thats a few seconds of discharge at best, totally dependant on the size of the failure in the tube?  So think something like, phfffft , , , , , , and done.  It might extinguish a small fuel fire, in a small space for a second or two, but it has not cooled the heat sources inherent within an engine bay and if the fuel is still leaking, re-ignition will be a reality.

Then directionality and spray pattern become issues, (as will the cable ties)  OK, the tube fails and releases the agent, what’s to say it is actually directed at the fire and not spraying it against the firewall?  Again, this might work (extinguish) within an air tight space, but the air-cooled engine bay is fairly well ventilated, we hope.

A quick check of the web site and itmakes no mention what the “clean agent” is, so it’s hard to predict what might actually happen.  And the web site makes no mention of any product testing, certification or listed by any independent 3^rd parties testing labs within this country, or any others from what I can tell?

And, no demonstration videos of it working, wonder why?

I'm out.

bin55 points out some veeery valid questions...What is it??...a simplistic tube with something in it valued at well over 200 dollars!!!

Hummm?

I'll bet there are a dozen chemical knowledgeable members on this forum that could duplicate this primitive 'extinguisher' for less than 30 dollars...including a two color confidence inspiring instruction sheet.

I'm always curious about simple and effective solutions to problems. I checked out the web-site for this product and it seems to work on a small fires-per the videos anyway.

I wouldn't disclaim this product out-right. I guess the bottom-line is to have good car insurance.

Scott:

I would imagine that their website is designed with sales generation in mind. I looked at the videos on the Blazecut website.

That said, an independent, third party, test or evaluation would be beneficial.I am certain there are testing labs for fire suppression systems just like there are for electronics, etc. (Underwriters Laboratories for instance.) For me, two guys who want to sell this thing to me   setting fire to old truck in a junkyard isn't quite the standard I'd accept.

I wouldn't buy this thing without that independent testing and trust that my car was safe. Note there is no sign of a guarantee or indication that they really back this thing up. It is what they don't say or advertise that makes me wary.

I'd be much more likely to invest in a tried and true system, though probably considerably more costly, than toss out $200.00 plus because this thing is popular in Europe so the seller says. I don't have any interest in any company that sells fire suppression systems so I don't have an axe to grind.

I also don't have an interest in buying a product that seems "iffy" in it's ability to protect my car, at best.

Only my opinion and virtually worthless to anybody but me.

Bob G...I buy into the opinion you expressed.

Hopefully, no one would seriously consider purchasing an unproven unit such as this.  This "extinguisher" is probably legal to sell ony in instances where an extinguisher is not required.  Note that extinguishers in the US are tested, rated, and qualified by ANSI (American National Standards Institute), UL (Underwriters Laboratory), and NFPA (National Fire Protection Association).  That's how we get extinguisher ratings, such as ABCD, I, II, etc. that tell the consumer what type and size of fire this unit is made for.  

This extinguisher contains no rating and claims that its flammability is what makes it effective, since it will melt at the hottest spot of the fire.  In addition, there is no inspection gauge that indicates the level of "clean agent" present.  This is the worst kind of subterfuge, since the buyer will now think that he is protected.  Avoid at all costs, but I'm sure you guys already knew that.  If you want adequate fire protection, spend a few bucks on an approved system or extinguisher, develop an adequate maintenance and inspection program, and hope you never need the extinguisher. 

As I said, for a lot of the reasons above, I put my money into a Safecraft unit.  Sturdy and proven.  I ordered the one designed for a 911, and it fits right into the engine compartment on the firewall.

Bob:

I just reviewed the Safecraft site. I can see why that was your choice. Which system did you install, and how difficult was it? Where did you mount the canister?

thanks,

Bob:

I mounted it on the firewall, so the nozzles (one at each end of the canister) are right above the carbs, as I understand that's where most fires begin.  I got the idea after seeing Henry install it in some of his cars.

It's item 50-1025, 26.25 inches, for a Porsche 911.  I realize it's overkill for my car, but better to be safe than sorry.  They aren't cheap, but it's good insurance.

Tom Blankinship has also installed one in his Speedster.  Halon seems to be the best/cleanest fire suppression agent, although I trust I will never have to use. it. 

Thanks Bob. This thread made me start thinking that I ought to take some extra precautions, particularly since I am having some carb issues and, in the two VW fires I have experienced one was at the carb and one was when the in line fuel filter spit the fuel line out and.... you get the picture. Cooked my 65 van.

The site had an MSDS. The agent is Hexafluoropropane a liquified gas.  The byproduct of combustion is Hydrogen fluoride which is (according to Wickipedia):

"Hydrogen fluoride is a highly dangerous gas, forming corrosive and penetrating hydrofluoric acid upon contact with tissue. The gas can also cause blindness by rapid destruction of the corneas."  Then a little dab of H2O and....

" Aqueous hydrofluoric acid is a contact-poison with the potential for deep, initially painless burns and ensuing tissue death. By interfering with body calcium metabolism, the concentrated acid may also cause systemic toxicity and eventual cardiac arrest and fatality, after contact with as little as 160 cm² (25 square inches) of skin."

 >>

Yikes

 I would like to do a CO.2 system It doesn't make a near the mess as a power extinguisher could    and it would be just as effective

Hi Guys-

I am the seller of this system.  You all raise a lot of good questions in this thread and I will do my best to answer them for you.

The Agent is Hexaflourapropane otherwise known as DuPont FE-36.  There is an inherent risk with any sort of chemical, period.  I would not place this in a passenger compartment.  FE-36 is the replacement for Halon, and Safecraft uses Halon 1301/1211 or FE-36 in their systems.  From DuPont-

"DuPont™ FE-36™ is proving to be the standard in-kind replacement for Halon 1211 in portable fire extinguishers. DuPont™ FE-36™ has comparable performance and efficiency to Halon 1211, lower toxicity, as well as zero ozone depletion potential. In a portable fire extinguisher, DuPont™ FE-36™ is discharged as a stream of gas and liquid droplets that penetrate into the fire area, ceasing the combustion process through heat absorption and a chemical interaction."

There is a gauge on one end of the tube.  There are pictures of the gauge in the listing.  Same as what was said Bob 2004 IM stated, as long as it is in the green you are good.  It will only "go bad" if you develop a leak in the system somehow.

The zip ties are rated at a higher temp then the tube.  If the zip ties are a concern for you, There is no reason you could not use an alternative mounting method, but it is not needed.  Eventually a zip tie will fail, sure, after what, 5, 10 years?  That is acceptable maintenance interval for me.

The Blazecut website does have video's of the product working, Bim55.  In my opinion they are not that great of quality videos, so I made my own.  I finished it yesterday and have now posted it as well.

Re-ignition is always a concern for a fire like this.  I have Blazecut installed in my bus and also carry a fire extinguisher in the cab.  The only way to be 100% safe is to not drive your car, which isn't an option for me!

MangoSmoothie-  I am interested in what you got for $60.  Please give us details!  If you have a system like this available for $60 I will buy a bunch.

I would not put this on the same level as a safecraft system.  Safecraft is designed for race cars.  I consider this the "homeowner" version.  It is a great, simple system that you can install in a few minutes for extra piece of mind.  For people with classics or original condition vehicles you can install this without drilling holes and fairly discretely which I know is important to a lot of folks with pristine engine bays.  

I will find out what certifications the product carries and update this post.

If you have any other questions, don't be afraid to email me through the site or directly at sameshirt@gmail.com.  I think it is a great product.

I respect a guy who jumps in to defend and explain his product. Whether I'm convinced to invest in one for my car is a different matter, but kudos for providing additional information in a straightforward and clear manner.

Ditto here.  Had I not invested a goodly sum in my Safecraft unit, I might consider this.  Although, as said above, a second extinguisher in the passenger compartment is a necessity.

Respect for jumping into the middle of the hornets nest.

my fire suppression system:

http://www.mangosmoothie.ca/fire-suppression

i only made one. for me. 

Thanks guys.  It is a new type of system for the US, so I know there will be lots of questions.  I'll do my best to answer them.  We all love our vehicles and do the best we can to protect them.

MangoSmoothie, that is a great DIY system you put together.  Being handy is worth its weight in gold.  I hope you never have to use it.  Is your 356 Mango Green?  My 61 Mango bus is part of my family.

JOGR,

You may have the best of intentions, but your business model is backwards.  Most folks would research the product they are selling first, including finding out if it is approved by the relevant authorities, then offer it for sale.  Seems like you have offered it for sale, and now will try to see if it's approved.  Kind of like selling tires then going to DOT to see if they are even rated.

Jim-

I'll have to disagree with you on that.  I am not marketing this to race cars or any sort of regulated activities that have stringent quidelines for product approval and use.  I can tell you do not like this product, and that is fine.  But I do want to address your claims so that there is no misinformation.

Jim Wrote:

Hopefully, no one would seriously consider purchasing an unproven unit such as this.  This "extinguisher" is probably legal to sell ony in instances where an extinguisher is not required. 

If you watch my video, I would consider that proven.  In situations where a fire extinguisher is required, say in a race setting, you would want to familiarize yourself with those regulations and buy an appropriate unit.  SFI-approved is what you would need in that scenario.  Blazecut is not SFI approved and I am not marketing the product towards that demographic.  I am unsure what you mean by the rest of that, as a fire extinguisher is not required in your engine bay to drive around on the street...  and that is exactly what this is for..  So I think you are making a "dig" on the product, but that is what it is for.  

FWIW, I am looking at the Safecraft site, and reading about the RS series, which is their least expensive option.  Some are SFI certified, some are not.  The metal cylinder is DOT approved.  That is the only mention of certification and testing I can find on their site.

Jim Wrote:

This extinguisher contains no rating and claims that its flammability is what makes it effective, since it will melt at the hottest spot of the fire.  In addition, there is no inspection gauge that indicates the level of "clean agent" present.  This is the worst kind of subterfuge, since the buyer will now think that he is protected.

Blazecut is ABC rated.  There absolutely is an inspection gauge and it is pictured on the samba listing and on my website and on blazecut.com.  I am wondering how well you looked at the info, or why exactly you are so against it.  Every "automatic" fire extinguisher product relies on heat to activate, whether it is a safety pin that melts away or this tube that melts.  In my opinion this is a benefit.  You can route the tube through the danger spots and the fire will be extinguished with a large discharge focused directly at the hottest part of the fire, before the entire engine bay is engulfed in flames.  The "Clean Agent" is FE-36.  Subterfuge is a strong word and frankly it offends me.

Jim Wrote:

Most folks would research the product they are selling first, including finding out if it is approved by the relevant authorities, then offer it for sale.  Seems like you have offered it for sale, and now will try to see if it's approved.  Kind of like selling tires then going toDOT to see if they are even rated.

I have researched this product first, but certifications are not required for the applications in my target market, therefore that info was not important to me.  I wouldn't compare this to a tires DOT certification, i think that is a long reach and not a fair comparison.

You do not have to have a fire extinguisher in your engine bay.  You don't have to have one at all.  I have driven my bus for years without a Blazecut and everything has been fine.  If you want to install something like this, I would research the options available and pick something that you are comfortable with and can afford.  I did, and am very happy with Blazecut and am proud to be able to offer it other hobbyists and collector car owners.

Thanks for the interest and questions. 

Wow.  I like this concept.

A few more questions come to mind. 

How suseptable to "false positives" is this hose.  Is there any way the hot ambient temperature could trip it?  Friction from vibrations in engine compartment wearing thru?

Seems a bit long for our engine compartments?

Otherwise, I am tempted...

I would second Ronins inquiry...looking forward to response.  something has got to be better than nothing and that video seems to present the solution pretty well!

Hi JOGR,

I am not against your prouduct if it is approved.  You state thata it it ABC rated, but I see no proof of that, nor do I see any mention of it in your ads.  You also seem to state that you are not concerned about approval, since you are selling it to users who don't require an extinguisher that is rated.  To me, that's the same as saying that the life preserver I am selling is fine, trust me, even though it is unrated, since you don't really need an approved life preserver in your case. 

If your device is approved by NFPA or UL, where is the approval sticker mounted?  I didn't see one in your material.  If it itsn't approved, why not?  I am not attacking you personally, but if you are selling an unpermitted device, you are placing your customers at risk.  Underwriters Labratory does an excellent job of rating all types of devices, and weeding out those that fall short of the safety standards needed.  I would think that you would proudly display your UL certification.

Just for my knowledge does not approved mean against the law?

No, "use case" comes into play.

To quote "Empi" which I am sure we have in all of our Speedsters in some form:  EMPI® does not warranty the legality of its products, which do not comply with Local, State, or Federal Laws. We recommend that you check local regulations prior to ordering or installation. -or- Not for highway use. For off-road use only. :-)

The above product is simply not approved by certain organizations.  UL, etc.  Just like the FDA when it comes to "Supplements" in you local Organic food store. ;-)

I agree with Kelly's rational and legitimate skepticism...Why is the question of NFPA or UL certification being skirted?

But I approach the efficacy of this product from a dollars and cents perspective

What is the cost/value of open heart surgery if it will save you life?...Whatever the traffic will bear, of course.

What is the value of an item fabricated at a cost of 40 or 50 dollars (at most) if it will prevent your car from melting?...$225? Hummm! Is this what the traffic will bear?

Since there's no comforting certification of this questionable product, then Take a closer look at Mango's innovating solution...and your pocket book!!!

Hi Ronin, melting point for the hose is 120*C or 248*F.  I know it is hard to tell without holding it in your hands, but the tube is very tough, it is resilient and as long as it is secured and not allowed to wiggle around up against something sharp it is nothing to worry about.  It is 6' long and contains 1lb of FE36.  It is perfect for smaller engine bays.  There is a ton of empty space in a bus engine bay and you can see how well it extinguishes in the video.  In a beetle, or your 356's, I would just install it as a spiral or double back on itself if space is an issue.  You would not want anything shorter as the length determines how much chemical is available.  Blazecut offers a 12' tube as well, Which i will have on the next order, but I believe is overkill (for the uses I have previously stated, of course, bigger couldn't hurt).

Jim-

Blazecut is not UL listed.  The ABC rating came from my inquiry to Blazecut earlier in the day.  I have suggested to Blazecut that they submit it to UL, because it would help ease the fears of some people.  I suggested this even before I was turned on to this thread.  

I guess it is just your analogies and terminology that I have a problem with.  It could be like the life jacket I guess, except I would say here is this life jacket, look over there at it working on that guy in the water.  It is a new type of life jacket, it is not listed as a floatation device yet, but man does it work great and the price is right.  You don't have to buy it...  Look it over and see what you think.  

This is the first time the product has been available in the US.  Blazecut is located in the Czech Republic and has not sought UL approval, as it is not required.  

I also think the term "unpermitted" is misleading.  Unpermitted for what?  I already stated what this device is for and there is "no permit required" so to speak.  How am I placing my customers at risk?  If you think using this is risky, I would suggest you do not buy one.  I wanted to see exactly how these work, and to be able to confidently sell these to my fellow enthusiasts, which is why I went through the trouble of creating the video I posted earlier.  For me, and lots of other people, seeing is believing, and in this case, you will just have to trust me, the product, and your own eyes.  If you choose not too, that is your choice and that is fine.

Todd-  

This product is not against the law.

I don't really have anything else to add.  I am grateful for the interest and it is my hope that some vehicles will be saved by this device that would have been lost if it were not installed.

If you have more questions please email me.

Hey don't get me wrong please. all the talk of unpermitted, not this not that was just wondering for my own knowledge...

One last thing, I am all for DIY solutions and I think Mango Smoothie's solution kicks ass.  I really do.  But to be fair, and compare apples to apples, on his website he stated $80 for initial parts, then he bought a second extinguisher for testing purposes, which is it was the same as the first one is another $32, and two fancy T bolt clamps at $6 each.  That is $124.  What do you value your time at?  How long did it take to fabricate and install?  Do you want to drill holes in your car?  Do you want something automatic or that you have to pull the handle for?  Like I said, I have a lot of respect for his solution and I do think it is great, but it wasn't 40, 50, or even $60. 

And neither is it 40 dollars of inert chemicals and fittings stuffed in a tube that retails for $225.00 !!!

You guys crack me up.  First, you have no idea what FE36 costs, or what the product costs to produce and ship here.  If it is so cheap and easy go down to the FE36 store and make your own.  Please let me know where you live that products are sold at cost, I'd love to take advantage of that.  I'm unsubscribing from the thread and will not be checking it any longer.  If you are interested in buying this effective and reasonably priced product please contact me directly.  Have a great nite.

Yikes.  No offense but as the owner of multiple small enterprises in my day, people are entitled to a profit.  Somewhere there was R&D, sourcing the right materials, and guessing anyone just can't walk in and get the necessary $40.00 worth of inert gas.

I applaud the seller for going through the hassle of importing these, dealing with customs, putting together a marketing effort, torching a bus, etc.

Most would pay $225 for their SmartPhone that costs about $50 to manufacture in China.  Your $225 SmartPhone, won't save a burning ~$20,000 Speedster.

Just a thought, no offence.

-Ronin

I just checked may ipad and there is no app for fire extinguisher so you might be right!

Ronin, you're 'skirting' and minimizing the exorbitant profit equation of this item... just as you glibbly skirted its certification question...by playing on the fears of its potential buyers.

Is a legitimate profit whatever the traffic will bear?? or is extortion a more apt verb than exorbitant? 

Carl, can you make something better for a cheaper price?

I'm thinking of buying one just to piss Carl off...

Hey Terry,

I'm going to bed with a big smile on my face...Thanks

I guess I just have a different perspective.  I have spent that much money on Sushi only to crap it out.  And yes, a legitimate profit is whatever the traffic/market will bear.  For a small enterprise, with a niche product, I would expect at a MINIMUM a 100% mark up.  Until the product catches on, his per unit cost might be higher until he can purchase larger quantities. (guessing)

Consider, the average mark up on (non-Ikea) furniture is 300%.  That bottle of wine at a restaurant, again 300% mark up on average.  Wine "by the glass", the general rule is the "glass price" pays for the entire bottle more or less.

So, I fail to see exorbitant profit.  I Googled FE36 fire extinguisher.  I see prices of $525 for a 9.5lb extinguisher, and $195 for 2.5lb.  The cheapest FE36 system at Summit Racing is $517 and a hell of a lot of work to install. 

What they have done is package up a plug-n-play system that could save your car for $225 and installs in under minutes.  It can even save your car when you are not around to push a button.  My time is worth more than that.

As far as the question of certification.  A "Rapid Startup" company model these days is go live as soon you have a product.  And again, EMPI, Dietary Supplements, and cheap Chinese products with "FAKE UL" stickers all fall under the same umbrella in my opinion.  I fail to see the downside, in a false positive, accidental going off of the system the worst that is going to happen is your engine will get dirty, and possibly stall.  No different than a Compufire/Pertronix module failing as you drive down the road.  Now, if it fails in a true positive, yes your out $20,000+$225, unless you are nearby and carry a fire extinguisher already like I do.  If you fear a failure under a true positive, than invest in something else.

I do not know JORG, nor have a vested interest.  However, as someone with an entrepreneurial spirit, I applaud him and this time saving product that has been demonstrated to work.  

I think I am going to buy one, and help support the little guy business man. 

-Ronin

Now--  Economics, Economy of Scale, and regulatory agency aside-- something just occurred to me whilst in the shower.  Flow??? 

I hope we have not lost Josh/JOGR, here is a legitimate question.

The demo shows a non-running engine.  We all know, our big Aircooled engines move a lot of air.  The doghouse fan has high CFM, our dual carb's move a lot of air.  And then the question, how good are your engine compartment seals.

That said.  Airflow while cruising at 3000 rpm???  My fear is that the suppression gas will simply get sucked through the fan and out to the road....  What about at idle sitting at a red light or freeway traffic?  Will it have enough to still work?

Again, I am a fan (no pun intended) of the product.  My scenario above however assumes an oblivious driver who can't smell the flames or see the smoke in the rear view or sense an issue.  In my estimate, a smart person would; a.) notice the fire b.) shut off the ignition and coast in neutral.  Hopefully before the system goes off maximizing efficiency of the suppression gas.  

Finally, in my estimate, in the case of a running engine-- this would need to be mounted on the deck lid of our cars.  It probably could NOT be mounted behind the shroud area.

-Ronin

Carl, you sound like a real jerk.  

AHH BACK TO GOOD OLD THREADS

JIMMY GET ME A BEER

Hey Guys.

Yesterday I emailed Safecraft because I am truly interested in all of this certification talk that has been brought up.  It was a non issue in my research and decision to import the product.  I asked about their RS products as they are the closest to Blazecut in price and market.  

This is my email to Safecraft:

Can you tell me has the RS series product you sell been tested, rated, and qualified by ANSI (American National Standards Institute), UL (Underwriters Laboratory), and NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) and is it SFI approved?

Actually, Carl is not a real jerk.

Actually Carl is a good contributor to this site and a fine man. I met Carl in Carlisle and he was terriffic---a U.S. Marine too, which I am as well.

I think we need to keep the discourse civil.  It was getting better and better, I thought.

We can all relax now that Jack has given his blessing about Carl and his coolness.

This site is now much more civil (boring) because "El Diablo" has left the building....

    Gerd, please pass the penis, I mean Peanuts...... 

Further research gets scarier.  But hey, different strokes for about to become way different folks.

JIMMY, PASS VINCE THE PEN__

JACK, U SHOULD BE WEARING A PEACE SIGN AROUND YOUR NECK. U SURE U WERE NOT A CLOSET HIPPIE BACK IN THE DAY.  COME ON JACK SPILL THE BEANS.

Gerddddd, can't wait to see you.....

I CANT MAKE THIS TRIP

Promises, promises...

you are totally right!  how quickly i forget how much $ i spend on this car.  It was not $60, it was closer to $100 for everything.  i am not including the other test extinguisher as i plan on putting that toward my air suspension budget total (don't ask LOL)

took several evenings to fabricate this.  probably total time of 6 hours.

i value my time, but i value doing things myself and learning first.  if the folks who built their own cars on here counted the hours we put into the builds, the hourly rate (when it came to reselling) would be $<1. 

Actually it costs Apple $167.50 to make 1 Iphone5

And the unsubsidized no contract phone costs you $649. 

http://store.apple.com/us/buy/...one5?product=IPHONE5

Jogr,

You really don't have to defend your price point. The market will dictate in the long run. Kudos to you for recognizing a viable product and the area to market it. 

I wish you the best of luck.

The concern I see for this replica market is whether there would be enough material in the case of an engine fire. Fiberglass burns much quicker than metal. I remember one speedster that was gone in a few minutes. Would the longer unit work?

I carry a Halatron extinguisher in my ride but I figure the car would be a total loss, regardless.

Ron O,

Yea, sometimes I 'shound like a jerk'...and that's only because sometimes I am!

Me too.

I just ordered the the Blazecut for the following reasons:

1. It's simple.

2. It gives me another layer of fire protection.

3. I have a fire extinguisher, but there is a good chance that the Blazecut will suppress the fire before I could. I have to notice the fire, pull over, get the extinguisher out, pop the lid and then extinguish the fire. I'm not sure how long that might take, but I'm guessing the Blazecut will beat me to it.

4. The cost of a fire is high and I am interested in a product that could helps me avoid that. After watching the video, I think this product could give me a extra 1-2 minutes. 

I know the odds of losing my car to a fire are relatively low, but I never purchase "insurance" based on the odds, but instead I consider the costs if a tragedy were to occur. 

Bottom line: I think this is a cheap second layer of protection that may give me an extra minute or two to avoid a costly meltdown.

I think it's a brilliant idea, and no I don't know these guys or own stock in the company!  I just admire clever and simple solutions. 

Cole