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I nagged Carey into sending me some pictures and an update on the Super Coupe (hereinafter called "SC" cuz I'm lazy).  The pictures below are the prototype/test mule that Carey calls "P1".  This will eventually be his car, but it has a lot of hand tooled bits that will differ in detail from the production pieces.  Once painted, Chuck will do final assembly and then it's back to Bremen for interior details, accessories, etc.

Chuck will also be making sure all of his jigs and fixtures work as intended for assembly.

Chuck will get the first production car, P001, which will be somewhat different in that it will have a Kia drivetrain (turbo, if I know Chuck) with an automatic.  P1 and P002 (my car) will have the Subaru/5-speed setup.  I believe the body for P001 has been done, but I don't know if any assembly has started.

Beck SC P1 in Paint 1Beck SC P1 in Paint 3Beck SC P1 in Paint 5Beck SC P1 in Paint 6Beck SC P1 in Paint 7Beck SC P1 in Paint 8

1964 Beck Super Coupe

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Images (6)
  • Beck SC P1 in Paint 1
  • Beck SC P1 in Paint 3
  • Beck SC P1 in Paint 5
  • Beck SC P1 in Paint 6
  • Beck SC P1 in Paint 7
  • Beck SC P1 in Paint 8
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It's funny that mine are quite reliable. Maybe it's your particular carbs?

I never got a chance to talk to you about your carbs after Carlisle. I thought of something a while back. You don't have a throttle stop to prevent too much throw on your accelerator pedal, do you?

I remember that the passenger side carb was open way more when the linkage got synched. So, you know how one barrel flows more air than the other on the same carb(right side)? And you also know how the idle air bleed had no effect? I think you have a twisted throttle shaft. It can be replaced for not too much cost. I think that would be the solution for you. Get back to me.

Last edited by DannyP
Sacto Mitch posted:

 

@El Frazoo

Mr. Frazoo, what kind of distributor are you running?

 

Pretty sure 009 with Pertronix or the like. It's the second one I believe. Probably nothing wrong with the first one other than the screw securing points eliminator to the breaker plate.........

It's a VERY typical failure point and an easy fix: Remove, clean, replace, use blue loctite on screw.

Jack, pretty sure Kelly has Spanish Webers but not sure. The original EMPI carbs(what you had) were junk, but have improved in recent years.

Last edited by DannyP

Danny, Junk is a complement.  Jake hated them and said he had a set of Dells that were just blueprinted by the famous Art Thaen.  He took such pride in the engine he built for me he practically gave them to me and did the swap at no charge.  Talk about standing behind your work.  Haven't touched these carbs since I got them.  Great response at any throttle position and solid idle which is something the Empi's failed to do. 

Glad the Empis have improved.  More glad I have a good set of Dells.  Love that "Dellorto chirp"---ever heard it?

Jack Crosby posted:

More glad I have a good set of Dells.

X2. I'm sure EMPI IDF copies can be made to be nice. I'm sure Spanish IDFs can be made to be nice. I'm sure Italian IDFs are nicer yet. Most anything can be made to be nice with enough effort.

Danny is the SOC defender of the IDF faith, and that's good. There are other Weber IDF whisperers/defenders/lovers out there, and that's good too.

It's just that nobody ever complains about their Dellortos. Ever.

 

Maybe there's a Dellorto mafia that quietly rubs out anyone who says anything bad about Dellortos.

Maybe, because there are relatively few folks with Dellortos (as compared to Webers), that we don't hear about problems with them so much.

Or maybe, because Dellortos usually aren't the first carbs you try, by the time you do, you've got ignition and most other trouble sources sorted out.

Whatever the story, I've never understood this shytestorm surrounding Webers.

My own experience has been pretty uneventful. For my new engine, a new set of Spanish IDF's was taken apart and some basic setup done. Float bowls cleaned, float levels set, shafts checked for any binding, and a best guess on jetting for my engine made. They ran well right away. We changed the idle jets up a size and they ran even better. Four years and 20,000 miles later, they still do. In that time, I've had NO clogged idle jets. Seriously - none!

I did notice one thing, though. The 'tune' did seem to drift around a little. Nothing terrible, but I am a little OCD about a smooth-running engine. I like that 'purr' when all four are pulling evenly and both sides of the engine come off idle together. I would dial this in just right, and two months later, it was a little off again. Getting it back wasn't that hard - a two-minute procedure of checking the mixture and idle stop screws. Usually, tiny adjustments of an eighth of a turn here or there and the 'purr' was back. I found I had to do this at the change of seasons and maybe once or twice more per year.

But then, last winter, I switched out the Pertronix distributor for a Magnaspark. Doing so made the idle jump way up and I had to retune the mixture screws and set the idle stops much lower. Gas mileage improved a bit. But the funny thing is that I haven't had to retune at all since then. My nervous Webers aren't nervous any more. A slightly soft transition completely disappeared - without touching the jets.

Which is why I asked about which distributor is being used. Inconsistent timing turned out to be the cause of any issues I thought my Webers were causing.

 

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Maybe there's a Dellorto mafia that quietly rubs out anyone who says anything bad about Dellortos.

Maybe, because there are relatively few folks with Dellortos (as compared to Webers), that we don't hear about problems with them so much.

Or maybe, because Dellortos usually aren't the first carbs you try, by the time you do, you've got ignition and most other trouble sources sorted out.

Whatever the story, I've never understood this shytestorm surrounding Webers.

My own experience has been pretty uneventful. For my new engine, a new set of Spanish IDF's was taken apart and some basic setup done. Float bowls cleaned, float levels set, shafts checked for any binding, and a best guess on jetting for my engine made. They ran well right away. We changed the idle jets up a size and they ran even better. Four years and 20,000 miles later, they still do. In that time, I've had NO clogged idle jets. Seriously - none!

I did notice one thing, though. The 'tune' did seem to drift around a little. Nothing terrible, but I am a little OCD about a smooth-running engine. I like that 'purr' when all four are pulling evenly and both sides of the engine come off idle together. I would dial this in just right, and two months later, it was a little off again. Getting it back wasn't that hard - a two-minute procedure of checking the mixture and idle stop screws. Usually, tiny adjustments of an eighth of a turn here or there and the 'purr' was back. I found I had to do this at the change of seasons and maybe once or twice more per year.

But then, last winter, I switched out the Pertronix distributor for a Magnaspark. Doing so made the idle jump way up and I had to retune the mixture screws and set the idle stops much lower. Gas mileage improved a bit. But the funny thing is that I haven't had to retune at all since then. My nervous Webers aren't nervous any more. A slightly soft transition completely disappeared - without touching the jets.

Which is why I asked about which distributor is being used. Inconsistent timing turned out to be the cause of any issues I thought my Webers were causing.

 

I'm glad the Magnaspark is working out Mitch.

Stan Galat posted:
Jack Crosby posted:

More glad I have a good set of Dells.

X2. I'm sure EMPI IDF copies can be made to be nice. I'm sure Spanish IDFs can be made to be nice. I'm sure Italian IDFs are nicer yet. Most anything can be made to be nice with enough effort.

Danny is the SOC defender of the IDF faith, and that's good. There are other Weber IDF whisperers/defenders/lovers out there, and that's good too.

It's just that nobody ever complains about their Dellortos. Ever.

Stan, you know I have the utmost respect for you.

What you said is a bunch of hooey.

There was absolutely nothing ever wrong with either Spanish or Italian Webers. Do you hear me? I don't care who makes a carb, I'm taking it apart and making sure all is well before I bolt it on my engine.

EMPI copies were junk. Bad jetting and inexperienced owners/mechanics? ABSA-FRICKIN-LUTELY. Even guys who ask my advice, I give it, then they don't follow it because they "suddenly know what's wrong". But they have improved them I'm told. Do I want a set? No, I'll stick with Spanish or Italian, thank you.

I'd say there are ten sets of Webers out there for every one or two Dells. And the owners are usually new to VW engines in general, and then you add 4 throats. Then add junk ignition parts(Pertronix and Chinese 009). We all know that 90% of carburetor problems are ignition. And don't get me started on linkage and synch issues. EVERY single car I have ever touched has been off synch, even those with the vaunted Dellorto. So we end up with a bunch of guys who end up with Dellortos because "they're the best". Hogwash. I'll take the Pepsi challenge on that any day.

I'm totally with Mitch on this one. He found out, as did you Stan, that there is no substitute for a hot, accurate, and consistent spark. As evidenced by my Megajolt installation.

I'd say the two carbs are equivalent, and there's no need to put either one on a pedestal or down.

I'm sure y'all are going to reference the difficulty I had with the jet doctors. Would have been a non-issue if I didn't change my velocity stacks and air cleaners. So I did that to myself.

DannyP posted:

Stan, you know I have the utmost respect for you.

What you said is a bunch of hooey.

 

... and you know I've got nothing but props for you, Danny. You sir, are the man.

But "hooey" may be a bit strong. I think I may have not expressed myself as clearly as I thought, because we don't disagree at all regarding IDFs

The original EMPI IDF copies were bad, but they were fixable. Art Thraen found the problems, documented what needed done, and EMPI came out with Gen2 carbs that mostly followed the recipe. They're still filthy inside and jetted badly as delivered, but they can be made to work, Gen1 or 2 with some work. 

Also, I agree that there is nothing wrong with either Spanish or (especially) Italian IDFs, other than the one thing that speedster owners perpetually complain about-- namely that when the idle jets plug, they're hard to access. It's not a big deal in a Ghia, Beetle, or Spyder-- but in a speedster (especially a pan-based car), they're a pain to access.

They don't plug up any sooner or easier than they would with Dells, but the idle jets on Dells are easier to access. Guys who may or may not know anything like the transition circuit of DLRAs better than IDFs, but I've never noticed anything different.

I lack the capacity to speak in code, so I meant it when I said, "I'm sure EMPI IDF copies can be made to be nice. I'm sure Spanish IDFs can be made to be nice. I'm sure Italian IDFs are nicer yet. Most anything can be made to be nice with enough effort." I'm not speaking with my tongue in my cheek. All of these carbs can be made to be nice if you clean things, measure things, and set them up according to specs. I can't imagine you disagree with that.

Dells take effort. Webers take effort. EMPIs take a bit more effort. All of them can be made to be nice. I even hear that Kadrons can be made to work adequately, but I've never had the patience to expend the effort to do it, and you'll notice that I left them off the list of things that can be made to be "nice".

None of this is magic, and all of it takes some work. The work is worth it with both Dells and IDAs, but I like my Dells a bit better for the simple reason that the idle jets are easier to take out and clean than they are with the IDFs. In my car that makes it worth the "extra" it take to run them. If I had a Spyder, it'd make no difference. 

Last edited by Stan Galat

Regarding Mitch's observation, I continue to agree that 95% of all carburation issues are ignition. Everybody wants better carbs or EFI, when their car would run 100% better with a better ignition system. 

In an engine using DDC (direct digital control), the vast majority of improvement is in the ability to accurately control and time the spark. I've got a hybrid system, Danny's got something better yet (crank-fire), but the Magnaspark Mitch and others advocate for is worlds better than the 009 and Pertronix that everybody is running.

Last edited by Stan Galat

Stan, I hear you. Agreed, they ALL take work, if you REALLY want them to run well. It may take two, three, or more jet changes. A wideband O2 sensor should be used, unless you like frustration. And ignition and linkage are WAY more important than most think.

Completely agreed about idle jet access: It sucks in a Speedster with IDFs. The Lord knows I've worked on enough of them. I really hate Speedsters with IDFs. Bruce Stumpp has a nice workaround though. He's got removable ports/panels into the wheel well and those longer hex jet holders. And a fancy little tool I made him to R and R them. It's a really good investment(not expensive either) to purchase those fancy jet holders. Just don't GORILLA-tighten them like Lane Anderson did.

Or you can switch to a 911 shroud and CB space saver manifolds. Or buy a Spyder instead. Or a set of Dells.

Oh boy. See what happens when you poke a stick into a hornets' nest??  

Yes to 009 dist, likely Chinese, and Petronix.  First electronic points failed, and yes I checked the screw before I replaced w/ current eqt.  I have a perfectly fine ( I think) Piperato/Nichols Heim joint linkage, so should be good there.  Would like to investigate different ignition system, as I understand about proper control of timing.  My timing light does jump around a bit w current lash up.  As far as I can see, crank fire is a true DIY business.  No kits  are available.  You go buy this from A, that from B, finagle something else from C and spend a few days lashing all up.  Not averse to trying, but have no clear advice on how to proceed.  Magnaspark??  I'd do that too, need to study up on what to buy.  Any CLEAR recommendations for what to buy and where to do so would be much appreciated.

As to throttle stops, not sure what/where that might be.  My cursory inspection would say that when the pedal is at the metal, the throttles are still not fully open.  Might be wrong there.  will look more closely. Bent or misaligned throttle shaft? Could be. Certainly the little bit it would take is going to be pretty hard to see. Clearly, if you you fuss with the air bypass valve and nothing you do to it (open closed or in between) has any effect, something else is wrong.

As I have a set of Dels in the wings, the plan is: next time I get to running poorly due to carb issues, these are going on, and I will do a comparison test.  It's a hobby, right??

As to all the opinions so carefully noted above Del vs. Weber, I can't really make any legitimate comment, other than I have yet to hear anybody who has ever tried them,  say anything bad about Dels.  set 'em, forget 'em, smooth and reliable, easy to finagle in a Speedster. Its what you hear.  As to Webers of whatever nationality, it is rare to find anybody who has similar comments -- except Danny P, and even he will tell you they are not fool proof. Only that if/when you get 'em set right, they work very well. My mileage has varied considerably.

I have what appears to be fairly stout 2332 and it occurs to me that possibly never have I had it running at its inherent best.  Not saying it has not ever run well, but there has ALWAYS been something not quite understood going on to confound the issue.  My dream then is that before I am too old to enjoy it, I find out all about what is not quite right, set it all right with complete understanding of cause and effect, and drive it like I stole it. Is that asking too much??

Kelly,

A big Type 1 is a finicky beast for a variety of reasons. I think you are experiencing the results of several of them. If I understand you correctly-- you catch glimpses of what you think the car is capable of, but are too often left wanting.

I have no idea who built your engine or what heads and cam it's got, but what we know about what is bolted on seems to be at least as important as what we don't know about what's inside (at least as far as it pertains to your complaints).

If this were mine, I'd start with the known problem (you have a lot of spark scatter), and only go forward after that is resolved. I've had nothing but bad luck with Pertonix modules, and would change that out before doing anything else. I've not had a bunch of bad luck with the 009 copies-- but I never tried super hard to make one work, as they are known to be suspect. It seems like you agree, when you say:

El Frazoo posted:

 Not averse to trying, but have no clear advice on how to proceed.  Magnaspark??  I'd do that too, need to study up on what to buy.  Any CLEAR recommendations for what to buy and where to do so would be much appreciated.

I would submit that several people with personal experience have recommended the Magnaspark distributor from CB Performance very clearly and specifically. It's $226, and comes as a kit with a nice coil and wires. There's nothing to program (like crank-fire or the CB Black Box), and swapping a distributor is about as easy a task as you're going to find. This one is "plug and play". You'll need a timing light, but it sounds like you have one.

Once you have the spark sorted, I'd turn to fuel. As many problems as you've experienced, I'd start at the beginning. 

I wouldn't start with the carburetors-- I'd start with the intake manifolds. If you've never had them off, I can almost guarantee you've got a vacuum leak at the intake manifold/head junction on one or both heads. There's a lot of weight cantilevered out on two little studs, and they tend to loosen up with the vibration and heat/cool cycles. Couple that with how difficult ported heads are on intake gaskets, and I'd bet you are leaking between the runners, or to atmosphere, or both. This is advice born of experience-- if your engine has ever backfired, they're leaking.

Fixing that means being a contortionist. you'll need to take the entire intake system off, then remove the manifolds. The gasket will stick to the heads, almost assuredly. You'll have to stuff rags into the intake ports to keep crap from falling into them, and then carefully scrape the gaskets from the heads. You may need to remove a rear wheel and some of the surround tin to do this. It's not easy.

Once clean, you'll probably have to make or modify your own intake gaskets, because the heads are likely ported, so the intake runner holes in stock ones will be too small. You'll probably want to make sure the intake manifold flanges are flat as well. Most guys lay a piece of sandpaper face up on a piece of glass, and move the manifold across it in a figure 8. You're out of luck on the head side, beyond making sure it's clean. I coat my gaskets with Never-Seize for the next time I have to do it. I also use special shouldered intake nuts that take a 10 mm socket on the studs. These are not hardware that can be purchased at Ace or Fastenal (they come from VW specific places. I got mine from a guy on TheSamba). These nuts from Gene Berg are something I'd like to try-- 10 mm hex head, peened to be lock-nuts (without plastic inserts)

Only then would I turn to the top of the intake, and start worrying about the carbs.

It seems like you've got a good set of carbs, but you don't trust them. I know it runs counter to your way of doing things-- but honestly, if I had as many issues as you, I'd send my carbs out to a "carb whisperer". Everybody used to talk about Art Thraen as the go-to carb guy. I sent many sets out to him. I stayed in his house a few times. Art is my friend. Here is a secret-- Art didn't do carbs himself since about 2000 or so, maybe longer ago. He trained a guy who worked for him to be the carb guy, and Dave (the guy) has been doing them every day for many, many years. Art sold the shop to Justin McCallister, but Dave is still there. The shop is called Blackline Racing, and they do fantastic work.

... but they aren't doing anything that Danny hasn't offered to you. I'm 100% sure that if you sent Danny your carbs, he'd go through them with a fine-tooth comb, rebuild them, set them up correctly, bolt them to an engine (probably his), set the mixture screws and air-bleeds, and get them back to you in a trustworthy state. After that, you'd still need to set your linkage up correctly, but that's something Cory can help you with in his driveway.

That's my advice. I'd either do all of it, or none of it. The "shotgun and hope" approach has not served you well so far, and I sense you'd like to be done with this for a while. This is a way you can get it running as well as possible.

Last edited by Stan Galat
edsnova posted:

CB Performance Black Box is what I got for the Spyder. Use the existing 009 disty, rig this thing into it with some vacuum hose and then break out the laptop and dial in your spark map. Hoping it's all that and a bag. If I hadn't given away my Megajolt crankfire setup I'd have used that on the Spyder, but that's how life is.

You'll really like the Black Box. Kelly would not.

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