Berg 5 Speed

I think my was close to $5000 from the builder in 2017.

Since you have a Berg 5 you already know that to buy a core transaxle, the kit, the gears (and anything else it may need) and have someone assemble it is in the neighborhood of what Mike said.  If someone has 1 and is willing to let it go (but doesn't need the money) then you 2 will have to come to an agreement on what it's worth.  If the guy needs the money, then you're obviously at an advantage and even $500 less than what he has into it would be a good deal.  If you can get it for $1000 (or more) less, then congratulations!

I'd want to see receipts.  Al

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Did someone say Berg 5-speed?

Chris, any more to share about how or why the pinion shaft blew up? Any precautions to take in the future or early warning signs?

From my own experience, anything involving Berg 5's seems to happen in a parallel universe where time and money are counted differently than here on earth.

If anyone involved in the transaction uses the word 'week', you can interpret that to mean what we on earth would understand to be a 'month'.

Five thousand is a nice, round number to start with (some would say an excessive round number), but many factors could drive that up or down.

We found one on the Samba for about $1500 less, but there were extenuating circumstances (there usually are in that parallel universe). The seller had had one built up for a drag car but never built the car, so the kit was there but it had to be torn down and rebuilt for my use because the gearing was all wrong for me.

This particular build also had a Quaife diff which I didn't need, so I was able to swap that for some shop time at my friendly, local mechanic, who needed the Quaife for one of his own projects.

I'd suggest if you're buying one that's already built that you have your transmission guy check it over before writing the check, if possible.

And remember that there are some hidden costs involved, too. You will need to start buying bronzer and linen sport coats. People just expect more of you when you have a Berg 5.

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I have heard of a couple of instances when people were waiting for Berg to build a lot quantity of something and those "several months" turned into something much longer.  It all depends on the demand.  If you can get another 5-speed that's decent for a reasonable price (you now have a range of price) I would jump on it.

PS- I've never heard of a pinion shaft (4 or 5 speed) break between 3rd and 4th gears before...

@Gordon Nichols posted:

I have heard of a couple of instances when people were waiting for Berg to build a lot quantity of something and those "several months" turned into something much longer.  It all depends on the demand.  If you can get another 5-speed that's decent for a reasonable price (you now have a range of price) I would jump on it.

GBE says they build the 5 speed kits in batches of 10.  Waiting for 10 prepaid orders takes a while, and since they don't inventory all the possible combinations, need your pinion and mainshaft for lengthening and some other parts (shift rods, forks, sliders and some other stuff) for modifying as well.  They claim doing everything in quantity is needed to keep the cost from going even higher, and I believe it- doing them individually would be (who knows how much) more expensive .  You'll commit to the process, including paying up front, not knowing how many people are already waiting in line, all the while being told "2 months"- every thing is "2 months" and they won't even tell you if there's enough prepaid to start the production run yet.  Same with every machining step along the way.  Count on a year from the time you put your money down to when you receive your kit (if you receive it earlier, hooray!), and now someone has to build it.  One of the guys here found out (after finally getting his back and taking everything to someone to build it) that a lot of the inner parts out of his core were worn out and pretty much unusable (very common in transaxles from southern climates where some have been rebuilt 3?, 4?, ?? times and who knows how many miles are on them?) , adding substantially more cost (iIrc 1500 or $2000) and extra time to collect it all.

All that said, a 5 speed in a Speedster is FANTASTIC!  These things are just so much more fun with close ratio gears AND a highway gear for travelling.  It makes every twisty road better, and it even makes just driving around town better!  It's on the same level as going from a totally stock 1600 to a 1776, 1835 or 1915 with ported heads that revs to 5500 or 6000 rpm, or upgrading from a stock stroke to a 2 liter plus stroker with ported 40x35 mm big valve heads having tons of low end torque and making power to 6000 rpm or more.  If you've never driven a Speedster (or Beetle)  with close gears you really don't know what you're missing- it totally transforms the car that much!

The best way (I think) to do it- spend the time, find a good late model core transaxle, disassemble, send the needed parts to GBE and patiently wait while still driving your car.  If you're insistent on modifying the trans in your Speedster, find a transaxle to throw in the car so you can drive it while you're waiting- don't miss a driving season with the car up on blocks just taking up room in the garage!

Yoda out (for now, but back you know I will be!)

The one I may have a line on was built by my transaxle guy...But he did not buy any of the parts.  I know it was built well and that it was never been installed.

@ALB and @Gordon Nichols,  I have heard the same stories, in fact the 5 speed I am looking at was at GBE for 2 years before he got the parts back.  I am really worried I may lose the spring driving season which is not cool!

@Sacto Mitch,  The pinion shearing is not very common but does happen.  When mine went, it was not under a heavy load.  It felt like it just popped out of gear.  See attached pictures of the break.  We have magna flux'ed all the other parts and all look good.  Not sure why or how it happened, just my luck!

@Csquared- do you know what gears and ring & pinion are in it?

I bought mine from Wright Gearbox because, at the time at least, he stocked the parts and I wouldn't have to wait for Berg to produce another run.

@ALB, it has a 4.12 r&p.  See attached gearing chart.  I am going to go with a slightly taller 5th gear.  

@Michael McKelvey, do you know if Wright Gearbox stock any Berg ring and pinions?

I just have a basic rule I follow.

If somebody, anybody, tells me that they are waiting on sufficient prepaid orders to come to them before they will order/machine/build something for me, I move on.

I'm a simple schlump and since I have no leverage and no control over when the product will be available, I don't invest my money or my hopes in getting it.

Also, I'm old. And that means I want what I want as soon as possible, so I can enjoy it for as long as I can before I return to ambient room temp.

I'm more likely at this age to settle on something different and maybe 80% of what I really want then to put up with waiting.

Just my useless 2 cents, and not worth that to anybody but me.

Carry on!

@Csquared posted:

@ALB, it has a 4.12 r&p.  See attached gearing chart.  I am going to go with a slightly taller 5th gear.  

By lengthening 5th gear you will be creating the classic 3-4 hole that happens when people use a 0.82 with a stock 3rd.  You will have a 200-300 rpm area where 3rd rpm's are too high and 4th will be too low when going up a long hill and having to use enough power that the carbs are drawing on the main jets instead of loping along on the idle circuits.  You'll be overrevving in 3rd trying to keep the speed up while in 4th you'll be lugging the engine, the fan not spinning fast enough to remove the heat created by full throttle at such low rpm's.  A bigger engine ( 2 liter or larger) will alleviate the situation somewhat, with substantially more torque at lower rpm's, so you're using less throttle (and creating less heat), but won't take away the awkwardness of the larger than stock rpm drop when shifting into 4th.

@Panhandle Bob- While I hear what you're saying (and totally get it), Berg's been doing it this way for over 40 years now, and another 10 or 20 people line up to join the 'way of the 5'.  If you want a 5 speed that fits with a minimum of mucking around (no fabricating a front mount or shifter set up), they're the only game in town.  And as I said above (and every time this is brought up) having close gears and a stock 4th in 5th has to be driven to be appreciated.

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@Csquared , my 1st through 4th gears are the same as the box you’re looking at, but 5th is the stock .89. This closes the 4-5 hole Al is talking about. However, my r&p is a 3.88, which yields about the same cruising speed in top gear as your box. 70 mph comes in at about 3250 rpm.

After driving these gears for about five years now, I have to agree with almost all of Al’s conclusions. My whole reason for going with a five speed was to close up that hole and this does the trick.

Revs on the interstate are slightly higher than I would like, but the flip side is you can hold top gear going up steeper hills, so I almost never have to downshift on the freeway. And if a slow car pulls out in front of you climbing a hill, downshifting with this gearing doesn’t send the revs through the roof.

We’ve been though the whole gearing thing here many times, so if you do a little searching you’ll find all of the arguments for various options, but I came to the same conclusions as Al, so opted for the gearing I did and have been happy with the choice.

My engine is a pretty mild 2-liter. If you’ve got a real monster, you might get away with wider gaps, but if that’s the case, you probably don’t need a 4.12 r&p.

Cheers!

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I'd listen to Mitch. Not only is he smart, he looks JUST like Brad Pitt.

And if you look mahvelous...

ALB

I get it. And I have a couple of Berg products. My comment was not meant to be specific to Berg.

If we were talking about a kidney, I'd wait.

@Csquared posted:

@ALB, it has a 4.12 r&p.  See attached gearing chart.  I am going to go with a slightly taller 5th gear.  

Take a look at the link below- I've inputted your gears vs later stock.

http://www.teammfactory.com/ca...48/0/7800/8400/0/0/1

Your 4-5 spread is about the same as stock 3-4 now.   A longer 5th will increase the drop between gears even more and create that 4-5 mph hole where the engine's revving just a little too high in 4th to sit there for any length of time but in 5th it's not turning quite fast enough to cool itself properly with any kind of load.  Shifting from 4th to 5th at 3500 will happen at 56-57 mph, rpm's will drop to about 2250, the engine won't see 2400-2450 till over 61 mph- right at legal highway speeds.  I would think twice about this.

http://johnmaherracing.com/cal...ar-ratio-calculator/

I got the numbers in the previous paragraph from the ratio calculator I referenced above but it doesn't seem to keep the settings when linked.  To see what I did- enter your ratios with .070 in 5th.

Just a heads up @ALB-- Adobe stopped supporting Flash, and Chrome (and Windows) stopped playing it late last year-- so I think that unless a guy has a Flash emulator or a browser where Flash will play, we can no longer see the plots. If you CAN see them, none of the rest of us will be able to by following the link unless you do a screen shot and post that here.

Adobe acts like it's no big deal-- like websites have all moved away from Flash. But on the sites I visit (the Team Factory calculator and CB Performance website) it's a big problem.

I'm aware, @Stan Galat- I posted the page to show the rpm drops and speeds. It's a pain in the patooty, I know!

@Panhandle Bob- anybody else and I wouldn't recommend it either!

@Csquared, I don't know if Wright has Berg ring & pinions.

@ALB, you've definitely got me thinking about leaving my gear as it was.  I have some time before I need to make a decision.  Thanks for enlightening me, much appreciated!

@Michael McKelvey, I called Rick at Wright and he does have both 3.88 and 4.12 pinions in stock, but they are all the new style which are a 1/4" too short.  Mine is a early style build that has a 1/4" mounting plate that requires a longer pinion and main shaft.   I'll try Rancho tomorrow on the off chance they have one laying around.

Nothing is ever easy!!

Thanks All!

@Csquared- I forgot to ask before- have you driven these gears?

Oh- and also- got a first name? My apologies if you've told us before and I've forgotten...

Did you find a 4.12 first gen Berg 5 r&p?

@ALB, My first name is Chris, thanks for asking.

Below are the gears I have been running with a 4.12 R&P since I purchased the car a few years ago.  

My only small complaint is I like to keep the RPM around 3000 while on the freeway which has me running around 65 MPH which is a little slow for freeways these days.  This is why I "thought" it would be good to with a 0.77 5th.  

In looking at the gearing chart with my current 0.82 5th gear, if I shift around 3500rpm in 4th gear I will be around 55 MPH and my RPM will drop to 2498 in 5th.  If I go to a 0.77 5th gear, my rpm from 4th to 5th at 55 MPH, the RPM drop to 2346.  At 70 MPH, with the 0.82 5th, my RPM will be 2180 and with a 0.77 5th, it will be 2986.  

With a 2165 engine (78mm stroke x 94mm bore) would you recommend I stick with the 0.77 5th gear?

I have not been able to locate a 1st gen R&P, unfortunately.  I would take a 4.12 or 3.88 (in which case I would leave the 0.82 5th).  I you know of any sources, please let me know.

Thanks for your help and advice!!

-Chris

I talked with Berg today and they have enough orders to start their production run.  They said 4 weeks, so it should be done in 6-8 hopefully.   At least there is progress!!

Glad Berg's in a position to help you out, Chris.  As for your gearing- I think you should stick with the .82, but it's only 150 rpm drop (when shifting at 3500) to go to the .77 so with the Speedster's aerodynamics I'm guessing your 2165 will carry it.  I would just be wary of putting a real load on it in that 55-59 or 60 mph range.  Watch temps and see how it does.  Do you have a compensated head temp gauge?  I ask because it takes a minute or so for oil temp to react, while head temps (when taken at the spark plug) are pretty well instantaneous.

When you've got it back together and enough time on it I definitely want to know what you think!  That's how we learn, by sharing information (and don't hold back- feel free to tell me I'm full of sh*t if it's working just fine!).  Al

Gene Berg once said he thought that perfect, "no compromise" gearing for a street VW would actually take a 6 speed, but with the rear torsion tube in the way there's just no room to add another gear and it still all fit within the stock sheet metal.  You'd start with a 4.12 (4.37 if sub 2 liter) r&p, 3.78 1st, 2.25 or 2.31 2nd, 1.58 (or better yet- 1.69!) 3rd- it'd be killer!

@Csquared posted:

I talked with Berg today and they have enough orders to start their production run.  They said 4 weeks, so it should be done in 6-8 hopefully.   At least there is progress!!

They should double or triple their production run so people don't have to wait around so much.

@Robert M posted:

They should double or triple their production run so people don't have to wait around so much.

While I agree with you, Robert, there's too many combinations to stock in this economic climate.  I get why they do it the way they do.

@ALB posted:

While I agree with you, Robert, there's too many combinations to stock in this economic climate.  I get why they do it the way they do.

The business model is reminiscent of supply houses in my industry trying to go to a "just in time" 6 Sigma (or whatever) model. "Just in time" means they don't have enough of anything for me to fix anything in a reasonable timeframe. If parts are 2 days out, all bets are off - I can get them anywhere in that amount of time, and often will, just to make the point.

If a business wants to charge a premium for parts (and the cost of the Berg kit is a premium price), stock the parts. The business model ensures that they will have no business in 20 years.

20 bucks says 95% of the people buying a Berg 5 get a stock mainshaft. Lengthen a 3.88 pinion and a 4.12 pinion and you'd have 95% of them covered. It's only weirdos like us who want a 3.44, and we can wait.

@ALB posted:

While I agree with you, Robert, there's too many combinations to stock in this economic climate.  I get why they do it the way they do.

They have to have records of what people have ordered in the past. Then the math tells you which percentage to make in each configuration. It’s not like meat that’s going to spoil. If 75% are X and 12.5% each in Y and Z then manufacture and stock them that way. I’m sure more people might get a 5 speed if it weren’t for the 6-12 plus months wait.

@Robert M posted:

They have to have records of what people have ordered in the past. Then the math tells you which percentage to make in each configuration. It’s not like meat that’s going to spoil. If 75% are X and 12.5% each in Y and Z then manufacture and stock them that way. I’m sure more people might get a 5 speed if it weren’t for the 6-12 plus months wait.

The highlighted section is the money-statement. The way I put it to my parts houses:

"Does it have a S/N? If not, then why in the name of all that's good do you care if you sell it now or next summer?" The price goes up more than the cost of money, so parts houses are actually AHEAD to stock items people want. Even if that isn't the case, you can't sell it if you don't have it.

If you wait until they're asking for it, they're going to go somewhere else for an alternative.

In the case of the Berg 5, people are starting to use Subaru 5-speeds with the SubiGears ring and pinion. Mid-engine guys don't even need to do that. Berg is going to lose what business they might have had by continuing an insane wait time for parts lots and lots of people would like to have, but have no desire to wait up to 2 years for. No replica builder anywhere is going to offer it as an option, because an indeterminate wait for parts that may or may not come is not going to sell cars. This is really too bad, because a 5-speed is one of the nicest additions a guy can make to a car.

It's an insane business model.

When I was thinking of getting a 5-speed I considered a Subi but not for long because it moves the engine up and back.  I didn't think that would work well in a Speedster.

Maybe I should have taken a close look at exactly how the new engine location would fit.

@Stan Galat posted:

20 bucks says 95% of the people buying a Berg 5 get a stock mainshaft. Lengthen a 3.88 pinion and a 4.12 pinion and you'd have 95% of them covered. It's only weirdos like us who want a 3.44, and we can wait.

I don't think GBE does more than one 5 speed production run a year (I'll ask Bruce and see what he knows).  I also don't think the r&p's are the issue- it's the mainshafts.  Of the 10 or so Berg 5's I know of around here, 3 or 4 are either stock mainshafts with 2.25 2nd's (grafted on from a type 1 autostick trans) or custom 1st-2nd gears.  The 2.25's are hard to find and the aftermarket shafts are too expensive to stock.  I totally get (and agree) that they way they do it isn't the best business model, but I really don't think they have the cash to invest in stock that will sit around for 2? 3? years or longer.  They're not the shop they once were, stock a fraction of what they once did, the shop is down to a 4 day work week and if their doors closed tomorrow I wouldn't be surprised.  I'd be disappointed, because they were there in the beginning and are a large part of the history of this hobby, but not surprised.  I think you'll see Rancho take over production should the Berg family call it quits.

Anyone who's been around this hobby long enough knows that Gene Berg either outright invented or had a hand in originating a lot of the performance products (that are now made in China at not always nearly the same quality) we take for granted today.  He cast up the first intake manifolds to put Solex 40 P11's on type 1 engines, made the first type 1 close ratio gears by hand for drag racing when guys were breaking Porsche transaxles on a regular basis (and the P stuff was even expensive back then!).  The first (couple?) sets were, by Gene's admission, horrible, because although modelled after the Porsche gears, being made by hand were quite rough, but they got him down the track and showed the rest of the crowd what they could do.

Gene wrote an article- "The Killing of an Industry" in 1979 or '80, as people were already making money on inferior offshore built copies of his stuff.  Even back then, many VW people were cheap-assed and would buy junk more than once expecting a better result.  So many people just don't get that quality costs (hence the whole Pertronix toasting fiasco).  He predicted what we have today.

PS- When GBE did the first run of 5 speeds it took them over 5 years to sell 112 kits (a kit being everything you didn't have to send in for lengthening/modifying- you still had to provide a pinion and a mainshaft, sliders, shift forks and ...)

Stan also said- "Berg is going to lose what business they might have had by continuing an insane wait time for parts lots and lots of people would like to have, but have no desire to wait up to 2 years for. No replica builder anywhere is going to offer it as an option, because an indeterminate wait for parts that may or may not come is not going to sell cars. This is really too bad, because a 5-speed is one of the nicest additions a guy can make to a car.

It's an insane business model."

Again, Stan, I agree with you, but given present circumstances, I don't know how they'd change it.

I agree with all of that, @ALB, but I obviously don't have the So-Cal Hakuna Matata vibe going. Being in business means you hustle or you find somebody who will. This is especially true in the age of "2-day delivery on anything" Amazon expectations..

How can they change it?

When a small business starts running into liquidity issues, there are really only two tools in the box to pull out and use:

1) Find a money-man to loan or invest money.

2) Sell the business before there's nothing to sell.

Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is a great way for Rancho to get into the 5-speed business for nothing when the once proud Gene Berg Enterprises fails.

Gene must have made a lot of money along the way for the family to be able to half-heartedly continue riding his coat-tails for decades. They have some fantastic parts-- but most of them are NLA.

Regarding the 5-speed-- I have no idea why they don't just build the parts or sell the casting molds and process. 

What I find interesting about the Berg’s is that the 3 sons run/ran there own VW businesses but left GBE.  They could have kept the legacy alive with their passion, so there must be an inside story on why that didn’t happen.

I used to buy parts from them back in the 80’s and 90’s, but got tired of calling and hearing “out of stock”.  That said, anything I ever bought from them was top notch.

I'm really glad that I bought the Berg sand seal cutter a couple years ago. I also bought a couple extra seals to have for the future. It's a beautiful tool.

I bought some other things from them years before but I forget what they were right now.

@LI-Rick posted:

What I find interesting about the Berg’s is that the 3 sons run/ran there own VW businesses but left GBE.  They could have kept the legacy alive with their passion, so there must be an inside story on why that didn’t happen.

Bingo.

I too have wondered why the sons aren't involved.

@ALB, Thanks for your thoughts about going with a 0.77 5th vs. 0.82.  Still not sure what I will do, but leaning towards trying the 0.77.  If I go that route, I will definitely let you know what I think about after I spend some time in the seat.  

I really do appreciate your insight...Thanks!!

@Michael McKelvey- All 3 boys (Gary, Clyde and Doug) have had their beefs with the parents over the years, Michael.  Both Clyde and Doug left the business in the mid? '80's- Doug doing his own thing up around the Seattle area (where the family is originally from) for the longest time and has been back in the L.A. area for the last 10 or so years (I think working at GBE), while Clyde stayed local,  I believe doing heads (his specialty) and building engines.  Gary left sometime in the early/mid '90's, spent a few (8? 10?) years in Hawaii running a VW camper van rental business before coming back to Orange County where he builds custom VW engines and transaxles.

@Csquared- The difference- the .82 is close enough to 4th that it will still feel like it's pulling under full throttle (although it should be a little shorter yet for maximum acceleration), while the .77, with the spacing a little larger than early 3rd (1.31) - .89 4th will feel just ever so slightly longer than a normal 3rd- 4th shift.  And I'm happy to share what (little) I know, Chris, and am looking forward to hearing your observations when you get it up and running (and, if we should ever actually meet, maybe even get to test drive it!).  Al