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Hello 540 RAT. I’d like to understand the nature of the test you use to measure wear resistance. Could you elaborate? I’m intrigued by some of your conclusions, which, while counter to common wisdom mirror those expressed by Ed Hacket (ages ago) and AE Haas (a cardiologist, knows something about fluids in closed systems…).

I’ve been involved in testing and managing testing labs and understand both the desirability of actual mirroring of the use condition (e.g.: test it in a motor) and also the value and practicality of tests to simulate and exceed a specific measure. But without more info its very hard to have faith in the results.
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Hi Grant,

You obviously have not actually read my Blog, or you would know that I have already addressed the things you mention.

You are one of only two or three people out of over 370,000 Blog views, in about 4 1/2 years this Blog has existed, who wants to know the nuts and bolts behind my Engineering tests. Virtually all of my readers are only interested in the final results of those tests. Keep in mind that my Blog is not intended to be a chapter out of an Engineering text book. So, it is not my job to educate people how to be an arm chair Engineer. Perhaps you have an ulterior motive. There are a number of critics who just cannot accept the fact that Engineering tests have PROVEN, what they have always believed about motor oil, is completely WRONG.

I spent a LOT of time, money and effort developing my proprietary test equipment and test procedure, that is capable of repeatable test results within a small range of +/- percentage points, and at the same time, exactly matches real world experience. My Engineering test data provides the best motor oil wear protection capability information you will ever find anywhere, which I share with the whole world for free. But, I am not about to give up the details of all the blood, sweat and tears, it took to get there. What I do share about my Engineering testing, is in my Blog under the heading “METHODOLOGY”. You can search that or scroll to it, and check it out if you want.

And with regard to testing oil in an engine, if you had read my Blog you would also know that is a complete waste of time, effort and money, if you are looking to arrive at the same data I provide. Here’s why: Engines are not designed to force a motor oil to its failure point. So, you could test say a half dozen different oils in an engine, and perhaps nothing bad would happen. What would that tell you? It would only tell you that those oils had sufficient wear protection capability to prevent a problem in that particular engine, being operated in the particular manner in which it was operated, for that particular length of time. BUT, it would NOT tell you anything about how those oils compare to each other. Some oils might be quite good, while some other oils might be just barely good enough. And you could not tell which oil was which.

In addition to that, you wouldn’t live long enough to spend the decades and decades it would take to test over 200 different motor oils, in an engine, in an identical manner every single time. And don’t forget that over all those years, your test engine would wear out, skewing your tests. Plus, the oils you were trying to test and compare, would over the years, no longer be made, as new oils came along to replace them, making it impossible to keep up with changing motor oil formulas as well. So, that whole idea is completely worthless.

On the other hand, my test equipment and test procedure are specifically designed to bring each oil to its failure point. That way we can determine the maximum wear protection capability each motor oil is able to provide. And each oil’s maximum capability, given in psi, is what we can compare. With that data, we can make an informed decision as to which oil best meets our needs, and which oils should be avoided.

If anyone finds what I do share, along with my credentials, is insufficient for them to accept my Engineering test data, even after having read my entire Blog, then they are certainly free to ignore my Blog and continue to guess which oils are best. I don’t sell anything, so it does not affect me on way other the other. I have a long standing challenge to anyone, anywhere, to “prove” that my Engineering Test Data is wrong. And no one can do it, because my data comes from the Science of Physics and Chemistry that are involved in the testing. No one can prove Science wrong. And that is why my Engineering test data exactly matches real world experience. My test data is the real deal, and it could save your engine, by allowing you to choose the right motor oil.

Take care,

540 RAT

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That guy is a tool.

It was a legitimate question, not answered by anything other than, "I said so, that's why". Ridiculous. 

... as for the "white paper" blog-- it's unreadable, and I can mine through just about anything. Assuming he was an engineer (rather that somebody trying SUPER hard to puff up himself), he might be interested in gathering data, collating it in a readable form, and disseminating it for consumption. Real science is repeatable, and the methodology is clearly laid out so that anybody can check the results.

This isn't science. It's bloviating self-promotion. I'm done considering it a resource.

Last edited by Stan Galat

I agree with you, Stan, that it's unfortunate that he isn't a little less full of himself. Since I first came across his blog I've thought he was a little too blow- hardy for his own good. No criticism I've read, though, actually de-bunks his info (and I've looked), so until then I'll consider his findings (at least somewhat) credible.

The point is that published studies that are usually double blind show research methodology so that others might understand and even be able to duplicate the results of the test which will or should support the findings of the original author.    While I fully understand that his research is his own I found the spirit of this question asked by a previous blogger to be in the spirit of understanding his research, rather than in a spirit of criticism. Just Saying. 

You might like the response from 

Hi 540 RAT,

You replied to me: “You obviously have not actually read my Blog, or you would know that I have already addressed the things you mention.”

Well, i did read it, but its a looong blog, so I searched on “methodology”and read it again. You say a few things your test apparatus *isn’t*, and you assert that it is a severe test, but you do not in fact give any details aside from the oil temperatures at which you run them (230F and occasionally 270 for comparison). Convenient, since my track/race car’s oil typically runs around 225-230.

Please dont assume I’m here to find fault – I’m here to find good, and to learn from your experience – documented in the data.

I understand that for your commercial purposes this test method has proprietary value and you don’t want to give that away for free. But, by the same token, many folks, including those i speak with, are looming for concrete facts — especially when you are using this test setup to document surprising conclusions. Why do I say surprising? because most of the established interests (blenders, etc.) equate viscosity, HTHS viscosity and wear resistance. So does ACEA, and do many OEMs. So we are conditioned by established experts to make this same correlation. based on your note I read the ASTM for HTHS and you are correct – it is not a measure of wear under HT and HS per se, but rather a measure of viscosity loss under those conditions. Yet OEMs specify HTHS and ACEA AE/B4 as if it was a measure of wear protection under those extereme conditions. To get **your** message out and more broadly accepted, in the face of such, may well require more evidence to support your findings. Just sayin. I believe i also acknowledged that two very smart guys have voiced similar conclusions in the past, but without test data (at least none they published). So you have a unique position here and the more that can be added to its legitimacy, the better for the acceptance of your message.

I do think you misinterpreted my comment about in-engine vs dedicated tests intended to push the limits. I totally get that running engines to failure is a costly and time consuming process; and ompletely impractical for the data you seek. I’ll also note, however, that i have witnessed exactly that performed by a major motor oil blender/manufacturer (one of the huge ones we all know) — so its not unknown. I’ve also been part of burning up a million dollars worth of high tech electronics to satisfy fire codes (at places like UL and Bellcore). The reason these are performed is because there are rare but real interactions that we may not anticipate. I’ve been guilty of that myself when i created simplified, but more severe, tests (in electronics, not motors nor lubrication to be clear).

I do appreciate the effort you put into this information and your willingness to share. But if you want to change more minds, anything you can say about the characteristics of the test – aside from begin at 230 degF and not a 4-ball test, would undoubtedly be appreciated by anyone with an open mind to your findings. I think I;m one of them and simply seek a little more supporting evidence.

keep up the good work either way – I certainly appreciate it.

Grant
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Grant,

WOW, after my lengthy response to your original message, you are still right back where you started. You glossed over what I said, and do not respect where I stand on all this. What a waste of my time.

I’ll make one final response to further clarify things, and then I am done going back and forth with you on how I operate my Blog. I have better things to do with my time.

I do not answer to a Board of Directors. I do not answer to Investors/Shareholders. I do not collaborate with Oil Companies. I do not accept Advertising. I do not accept Sponsors. This allows me to be 100% independent with no outside influence.

I have no agenda. I do not sell anything. I do not charge for viewing the Engineering Test Data on my Blog. I do not charge people for the oil tests I perform for them. I do not make one single penny off my Blog. I operate this Blog in my spare time when I get the chance. So, I do NOT have to convince anyone of anything. And it does not matter to me how many minds I change. Intelligent people all over the world have no trouble understanding the value of my breakthrough Test Data.

As I have said before, I do not express an “opinion” about motor oil like most everyone else on the Internet does. I do not express a “theory” about motor oil like most everyone else on the Internet does. I simply share my Engineering Test Data FACTS as a courtesy for FREE, to other gearheads, so that they have the opportunity to benefit from the truth about motor oil, that cannot be found anywhere else. No one else performs the comprehensive motor oil Engineering Testing that I perform. I post the FACTS that Science proves to me.

And as I have also said before, if all the information I provide, along with my credentials, and the fact that my test data EXACTLY MATCHES real world experience, is not good enough for someone, then they are free to continue only “guessing” which motor oil is best for their needs. And that will be their loss, not mine.

540 RAT

All in all his theories are based on science and we cannot question science... gee sounds like a religion to me... the basis of science is QUESTION EVERYTHING...  

I looked at his stuff to buy oil and I came to the conclusion that high end Syntheric oil in Quaker State and Pennzoil seem to be equivalent or protection as in their monetary value or to their extra cost.  

 

Just saying..      5W30 Pennzoil Ultra xyzzy ... and 

5W30 Quaker State Ultimate Durability,  for my subie. 

Here is another posting in an older blog.... 

 

Thanks Johnny, I’m glad to hear that you appreciate my Blog. No, I do not get paid one penny for my time and effort. I simply share my test data with others as a courtesy, because there is so much completely wrong information about motor oil out there.

People cannot believe most of what they read on Internet Forums or on Internet motor oil tech articles. They cannot believe anything that cam makers say. They cannot believe most engine builders. They cannot believe most of their buddies. They cannot believe most motor oil Advertising, etc, etc. Because most of what they read and are told, is complete garbage.

But, I back-up everything I post about motor oil with hard Engineering test data FACTS. I have always challenged anyone to PROVE anything I post is wrong. But, no one can PROVE the Physics and Chemistry involved in my testing are wrong. Because Science is the real deal.

The Engineering testing methodology I developed is proprietary, so making a YouTube video is not workable.

Take care,

540 RAT

http://xtremerevolution.net/a-...bricants-world-1999/

Summary of above.. Marketing Ruling 

PAO and Group III UCBOs can co-exist in the market place.”
 

If a Group III basestock is acceptable as ‘synthetic,’ it helps all Group III products and weakens the meaning of the word ‘synthetic.’ Not all Group III lubricants are created equal.” He added, “True synthetics will continue to offer significant performance advantages, including high- and low-temperature performance under extreme conditions, oxidative stability, and lower volatility, to name a few.”

So in conclusion … ester's or PAO’s are real synthetic… there is now another component that is near semi synthetic but can be called synthetic but does not have the true PAO characteristics. and is misleading the public.
 

OMG, this sounds incredibly like what we refer to as, “the dreaded oil thread,” on all the vintage or active BMW Motorad sites.  Unfortunately, it seems that whatever opinion someone has, backed by science or not, there are others with opposite opinions, backed by science or not.  Just put the goop in the engine and let ‘er rip! 

Happy New Year from warm and sunny Buffalo NY!  Currently 8*F.  Ask me what the f stands for! 

 

In Conclusion... the test results previously posted by this individual which were shared on this list are to be looked at as dubious to say the least. 

More food for thought. 

Synthetic is a marketing word just like the word Natural ... it has nothing to do with a true synthetic or it being really Natural. 

I have through this discovered that Mobil oil seems to be the company with the most invested in the ester or PAO production and that Castrol Syntex., seems to be using the newer Group III compound that is not as good but better than Dyno oil.  

Weather (it's cold )  this is still true or not who really knows but a trip down to your local store can only lead to more confusion with every level of synthetic labeling. 

Look at any brand naming or nomenclature and there is no real understanding as to what your buying with the labelling... that in essence is  the confusion caused by this type of Marketing.  

 

Banzai Pipeline posted:

He happens to be an astute engineer and scientist....but YES indeed......bash him good like you do me as you obviously embrace and enjoy ranking on anyone who isn't part of the good old guys......bring it on

Oh get off it!

If you communicate in a confrontational manner (for example your constant running down of Starke) you are probably going to get called out. It is one thing to challenge, it is something else to just hammer incessantly. 

I don't know if the guy is astute, or even a scientist. I do know that his "holier than thou" attitude is off putting to me. He may be correct in what he espouses, I'm not qualified to render an opinion. But, I do know that he, and occasionally you, position yourselves as beyond reproach.

That is a pillar that is difficult to keep your balance on.

Good luck to you.

 

Banzai Pipeline posted:

He happens to be an astute engineer and scientist....but YES indeed......bash him good like you do me as you obviously embrace and enjoy ranking on anyone who isn't part of the good old guys......bring it on

I don t think your conclusion are correct...

This is an open forum ... you give your opinions ... then you must pause for others to engage 

if all you can focus on is Starke then the subject does exhaust others that is all we are saying ... if you take it personal ... well you can be hurt but if your goal is to only focus on Starke then start a topic go  for it but no one will be listening to it 

communication does go two ways and that is not bashing just common courtesy

 

When a guy won't reveal his methodology, it isn't science (or engineering). It's either voodoo or sales.

Since this guy goes to great lengths to say he isn't selling anything, his complete belligerence regarding how he acquired his data makes me suspicious. Very, very suspicious.

The fact that his blog (and correspondence) is long on self-congratulation, and short on methodology, most of what he's saying can be considered one guy's opinion. That's all. Everybody is entitled to his own opinion, but there are only one set of facts. We don't get to invent our own truth here.

Mr. RAT seems to be playing on people's innate distrust of "big oil", as if one guy and a badly written blog is the lone voice of truth in a sea of conspiracy regarding motor oil. I've always stood back in a kind of wonderment regarding how rabid car-guys can become regarding their perception. When one guy starts advocating for something radically different than the general tide of a fully mature industry, I'm skeptical.

There are thousands of guys who are petroleum engineers working for large companies, who do nothing all day long but try to engineer and produce a better product than the other petroleum engineers working for their competitors. In fact,  there is an independent certification body that assures that the motor oil produced by all of these pointy-headed guys conforms to certain standards, just so there are no crackpots in the mix.

Maybe Mr. RAT is all that, and everybody else is wrong. Maybe he's the lone voice, crying in the wilderness that we should rend our shop-rags in sorrow, and burn our Brad Penn on a pyre of repentance, a bonfire of our vanities behind the shop. Maybe there's some reason he can't divulge his test methods-- Chinese spies watching him from drones hovering overhead, the Illuminati peeking in his garage widows, the Russian mob waiting to rub him out

... or maybe he's just making it up.

It's impossible to know without knowing how he arrived at his conclusions. As such, I'm not using this information as a resource. Jim Ignacio's "whatever's on sale" method holds as much weight to me.

 

I started reading his blog to see how he came up with his research and I kept hitting the older comments button and then even older and as I read it became obvious quite quickly that what he was saying could only be supported in his mind as he would not share any details of his methodology when asked to substantiate his claim even by those who wanted him to be right.   

I won't comment on anything else but your description fits   

According to George the oil guy you get what you pay for    But in my previous post Ester PAO seems to be the best oil for Subie.... I guess you guys will have to make sure some zinc is in there... but everything else is marketing for sure. 

 

Maybe we should start a link for honesty in marketing... Now don't hold your breath.

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