I have no evidence, but there are big rumors floating around this morning about a non-California builder having declared bankruptcy.
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Does the rumor indicate west or east side of your fair country?
Well name names, saying as much as you have could scare people that may have deposits with a builder for no reason.
Geez, welcome to 9th grade.
@Troy Sloan posted:West
In a state that starts with A?
@ALB posted:In a state that starts with A?
Yes. I learned about it yesterday....the group near Scottsdale. Can't remember the exact name. Apparently deposits not being refunded.
Umm, why are we being so evasive? Obviously it's Vintage Speedsters of Scottsdale AZ.
Or am I wrong?
Yes. I received more information and can confirm now that it's Vintage Speedsters of Arizona. Sad to hear about it and I'm sure there are going to be people who will lose their 50% deposits.
This is an email reportedly sent out to a customer yesterday.
"Good morning,
First apologize for the content of this email as it is going to be upsetting. But I want to paint you a clear picture exactly what’s going on. Over the last 12 months it has become increasingly difficult to complete vehicles due to inflation, parts, shortages, and numerous challenges with vendors.
Since February I have invested nearly $250,000 of my own money, which constitutes everything that I have. In an attempt to assist the business through this challenging period. Unfortunately, things have not gotten any better over the ensuing months and have led me to the point of now longer being able to maintain the business.
I have exhausted every option, including loans in an attempt to continue operations. At this point, I have no money or assets left and have no choice but to close the business and file bankruptcy both corporately and personally. I have taken almost no income from the business over the last 12 months and when taking into account, my personal investment has made no money from Vintage Speedsters and more than three years.
Where it stands right now the assets of the business need to be liquidated to facilitate any payback to creditors and clients were possible. This is going to be a process that takes some time I will provide you information as it becomes available.
This is not a decision taken lightly understanding the impact on everyone involved. While I understand that certain attorneys will be involved in this process for the sake of transparency, I want to be very clear that I personally have no assets left that haven’t been sold or used to facilitate the survival of the business.
I am devastated by this development, both emotionally and financially. I have been advised that Communication via email is preferred going forward to insure a record of anything communications.
Matt"
... and then there were two.
The real surprise here is that it took this long.
I wonder how many deposits they took when this was inevitable
he invested $250K of his "own" money LOL
@Stan Galat posted:... and then there were two.
Not really. There is still Kitman, Ramon, and @PaulEnvemo
IIRC, you can also order kits from the guys that took over Chamoix after Carey moved production back to the states, through a guy it TX or FL.
But yeah, I’m catching what you’re laying down.
Mike M's question is a good one, how many deposits, indeed? Yes I can attest this is so. I put down my deposit 3 years ago, we put the project on hold at the height of covid, then I told Matt to go ahead and build 1+ year ago. All I've heard since are inventive excuses. Being here in Scottsdale I've been able to drop by...a few weeks ago they were still in operation but in the last week Sam has not been answering the phones, I dropped by today to find a ghost town, save for a couple of unfortunate customer cars now locked in the showroom. And of course Matt has gone silent. Also interesting to note that Matt moved back to Minnesota months ago, which fits with an attempt to insulate himself from liabilities and potential criminal charges. His comments in his email speak to how HE is personally ruined by this bankruptcy (I saw that email this morning)...this has been a slow-moving train wreck and Matt obviously is not surprised by the result (as evidenced by his move). This whole thing speaks to fraud ("3300 cars built to date") and possible Ponzi scheme (new customer deposits to keep the doors open). I know from Sam and Matt they were delivering 5-6 cars/month in better times but that's been squeezed to 1-2/month recently, what with parts shortages (and maybe not able to finance parts purchases). While at the abandoned shop today I ran into another aggrieved party who has filed a police report with the Goodyear Police and also filed w/ the AZ Atty General's office. I am about to do the same and I'd recommend that to all other victims. We should also share our experiences with each other, compare notes and possibly pool resources - we may or may not recover any funds but at a minimum this should be properly dealt with legally. ...and all I ever wanted was my car!
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Another reminder of how difficult it must be to make a quality product as complex as these cars are, sell it for a marketable price, deliver it on a predictable schedule, and still make a reasonable profit at the end of the day.
Doing some of those things may be possible for mere mortals, but doing all of them at once seems like a miracle today.
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@dlearl476 posted:Not really. There is still Kitman, Ramon, and @PaulEnvemo
IIRC, you can also order kits from the guys that took over Chamoix after Carey moved production back to the states, through a guy it TX or FL.
But yeah, I’m catching what you’re laying down.
You missed JPS and a couple of other guys in Mexico (Silverstone, et al)
... but I'm gonna' stand by the statement.
To speak to @Sacto Mitch's point - business (especially small business) is by no means a slam-dunk. The temptation to run on borrowed money is too great for a lot of owners to resist.
Iam another victim and Iam devastated by all of this , I really believed him when I called him , Iam in England . He must of taken a lot of deposits .
@Dave Graziano and @Andrew1111 - It doesn't help, but I'm so sorry for you.
It really is much appreciated . I still can’t believe it ….
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I'm guessing a lot of entrepreneurial types, with some experience selling cars, look at this from afar and think it will be easy money. Guestimated production costs are 'x', customers are lined up out the door, I'll sell them for 'y', and — mo' money, mo' money, mo' money.
How many now have found the equations aren't quite that simple?
It took me a while to figure out why Kirk was cutting so many corners towards the end of his run and why so many VS owners before me were reporting happier experiences than what I encountered. I realize now I was lucky to get what I did, when I did. To deliver the car I was expecting, Kirk would have had to charge $10K more than he did, and would have priced himself out of his market niche by doing so.
If you're going to dive into this today as a builder, you'd better know what you're about.
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I'm guessing karma has a lot to do with this. When VS was sold the buyer said he was staying put and retaining all of the employees. Then over the weekend he moved what he wanted to Arizona and abandoned all of the employees. He got his comeuppance but unfortunately he's taking some innocent victims with him.
I think a lot of people are going to be nervous about putting deposits down on companies who build speedsters .
Thanks for your comment. Since the backlog had grown to 3+ years, I assume there are many more recent victims. In fact Matt had bragged to me a year ago that with build prices increasing over 50% from my contracted price and the backlog growing, he had new customers who would pay a $30K premium to jump the line, and that he could get that for me if I wanted to sell. Just a guess but I'd bet he was playing games w/ that dynamic to stay afloat.
I assume he was ok when the business was predictable but when covid hit with supply chain problems he was screwed and got desperate. But he was a BSer from the beginning.
I need to post a correction! I stated earlier that Vintage Motorcars does not take upfront deposits, but that was incorrect.
Vintage Motorcars of California does require a $1,000 deposit at the time the order is placed, but they don't require an additional deposit until the car is ready for paint. Sorry for the confusion.
@Sacto Mitch posted:If you're going to dive into this today as a builder, you'd better know what you're about..
Respectfully, I'm not sure anybody who's never owned and operated a small business knows what they're about before they step off the cliff. I sure didn't. I thought I did, but how could I? There are way, way too many things you don't learn about yourself until you are freefalling.
I can tell you this - if you're the "mo' money, mo' money, mo' money" guy, you're not going to make it. Period, full stop.
The guys who successfully build and operate their businesses shove all of their chips into the middle of the table on a do-or-die bet many, many times over the course of building the thing. They suffer through a lot of lean times, even as their business is growing and expanding. The guys who just want to pull money out end up like this.
There are no slam-dunks. You get out and do battle every day - not with your competition (there's always more than enough to go around), but with yourself - your own fears, insecurities, personality flaws, and risk tolerance (or intolerance) level.
You may know what you're about after a couple of years, but most likely you'll be surprised with your capacity or inability on a daily basis forever.
When I bought my speedster from VMC I compared with JPS. I already owned a used JPS and loved it. But JPS wanted a huge deposit and much earlier payments than VMC. I can’t remember the details but I remember being way too leery to pay so much up front with a two year wait time. I felt the same about the guy in Scottsdale.
I’m surprised VMC is not asking for up front money. What is their current payment schedule?
BTW I love my VMC. Awesome build.
I think this will not be the last bankruptcy we will see in the Vintage-Classic-Replica market in the next year or 2 ,
Many we’re using their houses and property going up to finance the business,
that worked with very low interest but not at 6-7% that it is today.
but this Arizona builder sounded sketchy for a couple years ,
@Stan Galat I agree with you completely. I started a software business in 1988 and from day one it was always about providing value; not making money. And boy did we ever sacrifice to build a strong business. If you succeed in providing value then you make plenty of money. Most people starting businesses think only about making money and don’t take a long term approach to building a business. Greg at VMC has done a fantastic job at this. He has a great business and rest assured it wasn’t easy to build.
Stan is spot on, even though I drove big truck for 38 years before venturing out on my own. I thought I have a good grasp on the trucking business, but it was an on-the-job education. I made out quite well even though there were quite a few times when I didn't pull a paycheck for 2 weeks or more in the name of keeping the boat afloat. Aften 9 years of running mostly 500 mile days, I was able to retire. First thing I did when we relocated here to West Virginia was to drop in at the local DMV to surrender my CDL as I was done with it.
I am Penny Charles husband the one who tried and failed to buy a car from Matt Teerink Vintage Speedster owner and Phoenix Arizona police department officer. I got very lucky, there was an error on my build which he alerted me to which was breach of contract, I immediately requested a refund around May this year. He immediately refunded it to me within an hour and I was relieved and surprised at the same time. Some time passed and my wife found Vintage Motorcars in Palm Beach Gardens in California who uses two U.S. dealers - one being cloud 9 classics in Georgia. I immediately contacted Roy Podolin the owner of Cloud 9 Classics who had a car coming in a month or two which I put a deposit on and waited for delivery. Once I communicated with Roy, he sent me a link of the car Matt built for me for sale for a large premium over what I contracted for. While I thought Matt was being nice in alerting me of the build breach, I later realized he saw a window for me to walk away and he to make more money. Prior to this Matt and I had many “fishy” conversations about the status and why my car was taking so long. I am grateful to be rid of Matt and his shotty build as the car from Vintage Motorcars is exceptional for everyone’s reference. Cloud 9 classics Roy Polodin is also really a top notch honest guy and very professional. My opinion is Matt was a cop and trying to run a business and grossly mismanaged his time. I question his truthfulness but that is all I will say on this forum. For those of you who have outstanding non-refunded balances ORGANIZE! Find a way to identify who you all are, determine the sum of outstanding balance and seek qualified legal council. There are laws to protect consumers regardless of what legal corporate organization his company has in place. There is no sympathy for a potentially dishonest incompetent custom car builder who squandered peoples money. Good luck to you all!!!
@dlearl476 thanks for the mention. Being in the early stages and someone who has been on this board for many years i will say there was a ton of “what not to do” when running a business like this that I learned from several of the “cases” we have all seen. The constant always seems to be under capitalization which dominoes into all the other shenanigans we have seen by several players. Deposits can be tricky. As a business owner you want someone to have skin in the game and not just walk away especially given the costs to build. But If they are asking for absorbent amounts up front with no chassis to show for it the that should be a red flag
The model we’ve come up with is not unlike most regular car dealers. Have cars in inventory in popular color combos and sell from inventory. Sure the carrying costs are higher but in the end everyone is happier. Heck, who wants to wait 2 years for a car. I will admit in the 2 years of development of our business with my partner it has been a challenge with Covid, supply chain parts issues and shipping costs, but you push forward. Stan is right, it can’t be about the mo money thing. It’s gotta be for the love of the game.
I love it @PaulEnvemo.
When one door closes, another opens.
@imperial posted:I think this will not be the last bankruptcy we will see in the Vintage-Classic-Replica market in the next year or 2.
Chesil in England was purchased by Westfield Sportscars in 2019. In June of this year, Westfield Sportscars went into bankruptcy. Last month they were bought out of insolvency by Westfield Chesil Ltd.
I'd proceed with caution out there.
When you look at the history of small volume fiberglass cars, whether real or replica, successes like IM, VMC, and Special Editions are the exceptions, not the rule.
@Sacto Mitch posted:.
Another reminder of how difficult it must be to make a quality product as complex as these cars are, sell it for a marketable price, deliver it on a predictable schedule, and still make a reasonable profit at the end of the day.
Doing some of those things may be possible for mere mortals, but doing all of them at once seems like a miracle today.
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Exactly! To quote a current customer:
"How hard can it actually be?"
Indeed.
@Robert M posted:I'm guessing karma has a lot to do with this. When VS was sold the buyer said he was staying put and retaining all of the employees. Then over the weekend he moved what he wanted to Arizona and abandoned all of the employees. He got his comeuppance but unfortunately he's taking some innocent victims with him.
I was under the impression that the business was sold at least once since the initial AZ move.
My heart goes out to all the victims of these guys.
May the perpetrators contract gonorrhea!
To DannyP's comment above, yes, the guy who originally bought it and moved to AZ went belly up (I believe in the first year), and Matt took it over w/ the shop guy Will. How these ham-and-eggers have gotten away w/ marketing it with the Hawaiian Gardens history ("3300 units sold"..."Est. 1988"..."largest vintage replica builder"), that's another story for the Fraud Squad
I am quite happy working for others. Independent business owners have always earned my admiration, and when possible, my business.
Here is some interesting information about legal shenanigans that occurred recently.
Justin was the original purchaser in 2017. Matt acquired it a couple of years ago.
They bought the company so I believe they were legally allowed to say the company built over 3,300 Speedsters. Very dishonest advertising in my opinion, but probably not fraud.
Two weeks ago, at a C&C here in So Cal, I approached my speedy after walking about to find a few people closely inspecting my car. I asked them if they had any questions, and soon learned they were employees at VS in Arizona. They worked on interiors. Nice fellows, and looking back I think it is fair to say they had no idea the end was approaching. I do not know why all three were in California, but I did not sense they had any ulterior motive - they were three friends at a car show and were pleased to spot my single replica speedster to inspect (not counting Jim’s JPS coupe visible in the background).
Sad all around.
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@Stan Galat posted:Respectfully, I'm not sure anybody who's never owned and operated a small business knows what they're about before they step off the cliff. I sure didn't. I thought I did, but how could I? There are way, way too many things you don't learn about yourself until you are freefalling.
I can tell you this - if you're the "mo' money, mo' money, mo' money" guy, you're not going to make it. Period, full stop.
The guys who successfully build and operate their businesses shove all of their chips into the middle of the table on a do-or-die bet many, many times over the course of building the thing. They suffer through a lot of lean times, even as their business is growing and expanding. The guys who just want to pull money out end up like this.
There are no slam-dunks. You get out and do battle every day - not with your competition (there's always more than enough to go around), but with yourself - your own fears, insecurities, personality flaws, and risk tolerance (or intolerance) level.
You may know what you're about after a couple of years, but most likely you'll be surprised with your capacity or inability on a daily basis forever.
This exactly. Going into my 19th year of being in the car building/restoration business and there have been plenty of lean times, frustrating times, eating jobs and dreams crushed. I still love cars and while I never seen the growth that I wanted, I am content with the direction that we are going in. Looking forward to an awesome 2023.
To Troy Sloan's comment, thanks for that background. But to clarify, in a legal sense the original sale to Justin was an asset sale as opposed to "buying the company". He did not purchase it as a going concern but rather bought the assets and wiped the balance sheet clean. The key point would be what rights to trademarks and trade names they acquired. As an asset sale and a total restart of the operation with all new personnel, this is clearly not continuous operation of a going concern. And then the transition between Justin and Matt, my impression was that the business had failed, in which case it may have gone through a bankruptcy...again, not continuous operation. I'm not a lawyer but I believe their claims would legally be considered fraudulent
Anyone who has been a victim of Vintage Speedster is encouraged to file a case with the AZ attorney generals office and also with the Goodyear police dept.
When calling the Goodyear police please reference the attached case number. They are compiling all victims together to file felony charges and working with the AZ attorney general office.
I was at Vintage yesterday and they are closed up.
3 customers cars in the showroom all w license plates. When I left the PD the officer was driving over there to gather info and hopefully try to contact the owners and landlord.
AZ attorney general site:
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Following Adam's lead (we ran into each other at the shuttered shop), I filed reports yesterday w/ the Goodyear PD and the AZ state AG's office. I would strongly encouraged any other VS victims to do likewise. It's pretty straightforward and the more the critical mass, the better likelihood of getting action. You just call the Goodyear PD office and speak to an officer who will take the info. For the state AG, search for the AZ attorney general office, click on "Complaints", then "Consumer Complaints" and it will lead you thru an online filing. While I would temper my hopes about recovering funds, I also know from experience w/ Matt not to trust his pronouncement that this failure has busted him. He's been setting up this exit for months...in June he lost his legal appeal w/ VS Cal, in July he sold his AZ home, he was giving encouraging build signals to buy time, then poof. It's time for a little personal accountability, and both criminal and civil pressure can be brought. Victims, rise up!
When a business owner " prepares for Bankruptcy " and makes certain financial moves within 6 months of filing Bankruptcy, to benefit themselves it is known as "creating Insider status " and is frowned upon heavily by the bankruptcy courts and they can, charge the individual accordingly.
@Dave Graziano posted:To Troy Sloan's comment, thanks for that background. But to clarify, in a legal sense the original sale to Justin was an asset sale as opposed to "buying the company". He did not purchase it as a going concern but rather bought the assets and wiped the balance sheet clean. The key point would be what rights to trademarks and trade names they acquired. As an asset sale and a total restart of the operation with all new personnel, this is clearly not continuous operation of a going concern. And then the transition between Justin and Matt, my impression was that the business had failed, in which case it may have gone through a bankruptcy...again, not continuous operation. I'm not a lawyer but I believe their claims would legally be considered fraudulent
Thanks for that clarification Dave. I was not aware it was just "an asset sale" and have been under the false impression that they were legally allowed to say they had built over 3,300 Speedsters. That certainly does sound like fraud to me.
Yes, that was in the "legal shenanigans" provided by Jon T above - a legal decision on royalty payments rendered in June this year, providing some legal history
Guys. most people in his position prepare and count on the “you can’t get blood out of a turnip” strategy. I’m sure there will be a long line in bankruptcy court. They will determine if any improprieties have occurred but that doesn’t mean there is any money to be distributed to debtors. Not sure where customers are in that line compared to debtors. Best of luck to all who put down their hard earned cash. Not to mention the disappointment of not getting your car!
Just to avoid any confusion for anyone who reads the legal document that Jon T posted a link to:
References to Vintage Speedsters of California is referring to Kirk Duncan who sold the company in 2017.
References to Vintage Motorcar Ltd is referring to Matt Teerink of Arizona, the person who has declared bankruptcy.
Greg Leach's name shows up in the document because he gave a deposition in the case. Greg is the owner of Vintage Motorcars of California and was not a party in the case between Kirk and Matt.
@MikeM posted:Guys. most people in his position prepare and count on the “you can’t get blood out of a turnip” strategy. I’m sure there will be a long line in bankruptcy court. They will determine if any improprieties have occurred but that doesn’t mean there is any money to be distributed to debtors. Not sure where customers are in that line compared to debtors. Best of luck to all who put down their hard earned cash. Not to mention the disappointment of not getting your car!
Not that every person with a deposit shouldn't try, but getting legal judgement is far different from collecting on the debt. If trying to get him jail time for fraud is the goal, have at it but I'd be surprised if deposit holders get more than pennies on the dollar back. Bank comes first, then secured creditors (whoever he buys bodies from, engines etc) and then you
I have contacted the attorneys general and will fill out the form . I have also contacted the Goodyear police and will explain my story , I just waiting for a call back . I can’t believe he was a policemen ! I hope everybody effected does the same , I understand it’s going to be very hard getting any money back . But it does not sit right and collecting deposits after deposits then delay people till it just oozes fraud . Any help or advice is welcome . Thank you
Yes please just call and report.
The assigned officer actually just called me and what they are really looking for is proof of fraud to file criminal charges. Mainly him either showing a car or selling the same car to multiple people. So far we have one case of this where he was sending progress pics of a car to someone then sold that car to someone else. This is going to be hard to prove since most people have no idea where their car actually went that was in process or maybe was never kn process yet Matt was sending pics. Again this all needs to be provable and the AZ attorney general will need to piece all this together.
I don’t know who owns those 3 cars in his showroom however they are still waiting on a call from the landlord to get in the building and run plates. I know one has a Hawaii plate on it. I’m sure at some point here they will be all reported as stolen vehicles.
When I was briefly chatting with the three VS employees standing next to my VMC speedster, I asked them how many cars per month they were building. One of them offered they had three cars just waiting for an engine.
I wonder if those are the cars visible through the front door.
To Jon T, no, these were cars in the front showroom that had been there for months - I had been told previously they were customer cars, they had plates on them; one was from a guy who returned his car to have them do an EV conversion.
From the outside we could not see into the shop in the rear. I know from being in there 3 weeks ago there were a good half dozen cars in process in the shop and the regular comment was they were awaiting engines (I believe they were shy on engine casings). There's no telling whether those cars are also trapped in there, along with tools and fixtures. There are still decorations on the walls and Matt's personal classic stock car (an old Studebaker GT Hawk) is sitting outside in the parking lot. It looks like a sudden closing with no notice so I suspect the shop might look much like I saw it.
As for your question on run rate, they said they were producing 5-6 cars per month pre-Covid, and then when parts shortages occurred they were squeezing out 1-2 per month. Matt told me this but I heard the same in the shop, so I actually believe that.
Ok so I just spoke w Goodyear Police. They stated they have so many people reporting fraud at this point they request people quit calling.
They would like all people who have been affected to contact the AZ atty generals office in which I provided a link above. They need to take the case before any criminal charges can take place.
Again please refrain from calling Goodyear police as i mentioned above. They have what they need.
@ADAM SCHROEDER posted:Ok so I just spoke w Goodyear Police. They stated they have so many people reporting fraud at this point they request people quit calling.
They would like all people who have been affected to contact the AZ atty generals office in which I provided a link above. They need to take the case before any criminal charges can take place.Again please refrain from calling Goodyear police as i mentioned above. They have what they need.
That escalated quickly.
Hopefully someone in San Mateo, California can get Sheriff Carlos Bolanos to send a group of four officers to Minnesota to raid and arrest Matt Teerink.
@Andrew1111 I think your best bet is to solicit as many people as you can find who placed a deposit and did not get a car. Maybe you can find 20 or more. Then seek an Arizona attorney who would be willing to take your class action on a contingency basis. You may find a willing attorney if they think there is any money on the table. From the comments it appears there may be some criminal activity, which would bode well in a class action suit against a party declaring bankruptcy, but again, depending on how smart (and evil) a defendant may be, there may be no money. Sorry for your loss.
PS suing merely for revenge is a losing proposition, no matter how appealing that may be.
I hired a lawyer several weeks ago pursuing a refund against Vintage Speedsters of Arizona. They certainly have a leg up of what’s going on and can certainly help. Turner Law Firm in Glendale, AZ. (480)340-2184. Very easy to work with.
If the owner is a cop it's worth asking his department whether an internal affairs complaint/investigation has been generated.
Lots of cops have side hustles. IMHO it's not good policy for departments to allow it.
@edsnova posted:If the owner is a cop it's worth asking his department whether an internal affairs complaint/investigation has been generated.
Lots of cops have side hustles. IMHO it's not good policy for departments to allow it.
If he moved to Minnesota he's not a cop in Arizona anymore. Might be worth seeing if he's employed in Minnesota though.
Ah missed that part.
@americanworkmule posted:Hopefully someone in San Mateo, California can get Sheriff Carlos Bolanos to send a group of four officers to Minnesota to raid and arrest Matt Teerink.
Hell! Knowing Carlos...and I have for 30 yrs....he might have been an investor in Matt's Arizona con job. 
Anyone know what painter Vintage uses? My body has apparently stuck at the painter they use for months as they have been backed up, not sure if this is even true at this point but if it is I'd love to at least have a body to shop for my 1.5 year wait and 50% deposit.
Sam’s Auto Body in Phoenix
@Maurice Alma posted:Anyone know what painter Vintage uses? My body has apparently stuck at the painter they use for months as they have been backed up, not sure if this is even true at this point but if it is I'd love to at least have a body to shop for my 1.5 year wait and 50% deposit.
Unfortunately, I don’t see how the body shop could give you the body. They would have no proof it’s yours, and they may hold it on a mechanic’s lien against any money they are owed.
@LI-Rick posted:Unfortunately, I don’t see how the body shop could give you the body. They would have no proof it’s yours, and they may hold it on a mechanic’s lien against any money they are owed.
Exactly right. Besides Matt said that was my body
...I'll bet my VS deposit that the body in question is either not there or it's been promised to every other victim!
I spoke to the body shop and they haven’t had any speedster in months they said, mine was black and they mentioned they haven’t painted a black one in a while. My car was supposed to be completed in May 2022. Lies
@LI-Rick posted:Unfortunately, I don’t see how the body shop could give you the body. They would have no proof it’s yours, and they may hold it on a mechanic’s lien against any money they are owed.
My buddy just got nearly robbed of a 911. Took it to a Body shop to have it painted. He ran into a guy at a car show that asked him if he knew the shop was going under.
He stayed in LA and camped on their doorsteps until he got most of it back. Unfortunately, they were all disassembled. But he got them
Of course, he could talk to the owner and the property owner, which isn’t the case here. But I think receipts would go a long way a court of law.
I may have asked this before but is there not a way that the forum threads can jump to the last place you stopped reading when you open it again? Every forum I am part of does this and it makes re-opening threads like this much less frustrating. Thx.
@WNGD posted:I may have asked this before but is there not a way that the forum threads can jump to the last place you stopped reading when you open it again? Every forum I am part of does this and it makes re-opening threads like this much less frustrating. Thx.
When you go back to the thread click on "First unread post."
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@dlearl476 posted:My buddy just got nearly robbed of a 911. Took it to a Body shop to have it painted. He ran into a guy at a car show that asked him if he knew the shop was going under.
He stayed in LA and camped on their doorsteps until he got most of it back. Unfortunately, they were all disassembled. But he got themOf course, he could talk to the owner and the property owner, which isn’t the case here. But I think receipts would go a long way a court of law.
Completely different scenario. Your buddy owned the 911, had title. There is no ownership for a car under construction by a replica builder.
@edsnova posted:When you go back to the thread click on "First unread post."
I usually go through "newest speedster topics" on the home page where that option doesn't appear to be offered, no idea why.
If you go through the "Topics" tab and all topics there, it is. I guess I'll try to read a different way, thx. All these years here and I never saw that.
Holy S! Always knew that the Arizona operation was a little sketchy but didn’t know it would end like this. I am sad for the victims who put deposits in; I hope they can recoup their investments.
@WNGD posted:Perhaps if you'd already been given the assigned VIN on the chassis and can prove it?
Even if you did already own it the paint shop could still put a lien on it and being the registered owner, if you had a title, you’d be responsible for clearing the lien. Hence you’d be paying for the paint job twice.
But that’s not how it works here. You’re under contract to buy the car when it’s finished. Until then it isn’t titled yet. The other reason it isn’t titled yet is it has to be inspected by the titling authority of the state where it’s going to be titled.
@Robert M posted:Even if you did already own it the paint shop could still put a lien on it and being the registered owner, if you had a title, you’d be responsible for clearing the lien. Hence you’d be paying for the paint job twice.
But that’s not how it works here. You’re under contract to buy the car when it’s finished. Until then it isn’t titled yet. The other reason it isn’t titled yet is it has to be inspected by the titling authority of the state where it’s going to be titled.
Manufacturers don’t have titles. They have MSOs. It all depends on their process how they generate those Ser # and that paperwork. Given the rest of their MO, I’d venture a WAG that it was a “day late and a dollar short.”
A title is generated when the first owner turns it in to their state DMV.
Lied too and mislead for two years! Came out and visited the shop and everything seemed on up and up. Gut told me very mismanaged but I had hope.......stupid!
For those with deposits and "cars in production" have a plan of action?
I was hoping one of you guys had a plan of action , im sure some one here is clued up . I’m in England but I will do what ever I can to assist . Etc . I have made a report to Goodyear police and done the attorney general , so I I presume I just wait but as a collective that’s got to be something .
What did Goodyear police say? I wasn't sure local PD could do anything?
Please refer to Prev posts.
The Goodyear police have requested to no longer file complaints. They would simply like all parties to file AZ atty general complaints only. They will determine if there are criminal charges and then the Goodyear police will collectively gather all victims complaints from them.
Getting any money is prob not going to happen anytime soon if at all.
I would recommend anyone who wired funds to also contact your bank and report the fraud.
The investigating officer has been contacting me daily in regards to this so I believe I prob have the most up to date info.
Thank you Adam
No that’s fine , they were really helpful . They just wanted all my email correspondence.
@dlearl476 posted:Manufacturers don’t have titles. They have MSOs. It all depends on their process how they generate those Ser # and that paperwork. Given the rest of their MO, I’d venture a WAG that it was a “day late and a dollar short.”
A title is generated when the first owner turns it in to their state DMV.
I got that. My explanation above was two part. The first part being a hypothetical IF.
Second part explaining why there is no title yet.
They need to determine if there is any fraud by him sending pics of same cars to multiple people or even progress pics of wrong cars to people. Selling same car to multiple people is a Ponzi. If you simply just put down money for a car that is not what Goodyear PD is looking for
I have pictures, emails, and text's. I even have the VIN number Matt had sent me assigned to my car.
Well that may work If they can trace that vin and see if it was sold to someone else etc. @MidCentury
@Robert M posted:I got that. My explanation above was two part. The first part being a hypothetical IF.
Second part explaining why there is no title yet.
Robert, I'm not so sure that dlear1476 is entirely correct, at least in the case of Vintage Speedsters Arizona. The MSO thing might be correct for builders like Special Edition (BECK) who don't use a VW pan, but Vintage Arizona was building cars with a VW pan and had VW title when they acquired the donor VW, which they would simply pass on to the new owner when the build was complete.
@Troy Sloan posted:Robert, I'm not so sure that dlear1476 is entirely correct, at least in the case of Vintage Speedsters Arizona. The MSO thing might be correct for builders like Special Edition (BECK) who don't use a VW pan, but Vintage Arizona was building cars with a VW pan and had VW title when they acquired the donor VW, which they would simply pass on to the new owner when the build was complete.
I would bet that the majority, if not all, of those VIN#s are on a PNO, or Planned Non Op. That is so they can have a few dozen or a few hundred pans in storage and they're not paying registration fees on them. As soon as the vehicle is completed the VIN is transferred to the buyer who can go get the car registered.
Porsche has already sent me the VIN number for my 2023 Boxster but I can guarantee you it isn't in my name yet. It hasn't left the port as it is just sitting there waiting to be loaded onto the RoRo.
@Robert M posted:I would bet that the majority, if not all, of those VIN#s are on a PNO, or Planned Non Op. That is so they can have a few dozen or a few hundred pans in storage and they're not paying registration fees on them. As soon as the vehicle is completed the VIN is transferred to the buyer who can go get the car registered.
Porsche has already sent me the VIN number for my 2023 Boxster but I can guarantee you it isn't in my name yet. It hasn't left the port as it is just sitting there waiting to be loaded onto the RoRo.
Agreed, but my point was that in this case they do have a title, not an MSO which is what dlear1476 stated.
@ADAM SCHROEDER posted:They need to determine if there is any fraud by him sending pics of same cars to multiple people or even progress pics of wrong cars to people. Selling same car to multiple people is a Ponzi. If you simply just put down money for a car that is not what Goodyear PD is looking for
The only thing that adds teeth to the case at this point is the kind of thing Adam points to here, such evidence of a blatant misrepresentation or Ponzi scheme, like representing the same car to multiple people or sending progress pics or VIN# from a past build (hard to prove). I finally pinned him down w/ an email of a completion date of 60 days, which came and went, but even that is understandable legally in the scheme of business failure. Unfortunately from a legal standpoint, as long as he was operating and delivering cars (even 1 per month), he was a going concern and could make the defense he would get to the backlog in time, he was hindered by "Covid supply chain issues".
Aside from something like my email, he didn't have a deadline so he would not be in default (I was in the process of using it to force refund). We all can pretty well guess what was going on but legally, going broke is not criminal. So anyone with that evidence of true fraud should bring that to the Goodyear PD and AZ AG. And then there are civil suits with uncertain recoveries. Otherwise not sure what there is short of torches and pitchforks
@Troy Sloan posted:Agreed, but my point was that in this case they do have a title, not an MSO which is what dlear1476 stated.
Correct, except it wouldn't be in the buyer's name, even if they sent the VIN number to the buyer. The title remains in the name of the company until the car is completed and sale is completed. And that's if the purchase of the donor car was done properly and title transferred to the business as it should have been.
@Dave
I believe you are correct, best in my opinion is provide all information (emails, pics, text's etc..) and hope for the best. If we get anything will be penny's on the dollar. I firmly believe Matt negligent and borderline criminal....all about proof.
FYI: Best to use the term "alleged" than have said individual alleged retaliate which happens all too often. Use the PM option for specifics to individuals. AND ...... use common sense when replying to unfamiliar persons posting.....
@Alan Merklin posted:FYI: Best to use the term "alleged" than have said individual alleged retaliate which happens all too often.
Exactly the reason I was very vague in my original post. FYI. The title of my original post was revised, I guess by Theron, but for the record, I did not mention a company name in my original post.
Wow, this is terrible.
Did anyone see the VS new build on Bring A Trailer a few weeks ago? The seller had this car on consignment... I'm curious to know if this was a customer's car being consigned by Matt through the selling dealer (911r on Bring A Trailer) Avant-Garde Collection in Portland, pretty sure the car wasn't in the physical hands of the consigning dealership. Here is the VIN on that car's auction: VIN: 118639916. Speedster only had 360 miles on it, still brand new. Curious if Matt was taking orders funded by clients and spec-ing them out to sell on BaT to acquire more funds for the company to keep it going?
Link to auction: https://bringatrailer.com/list...a-vintage-speedster/
Here is also another one built by Vintage Speedsters of Arizona that was sold on Bring A Trailer back on 5/18/22 with 466 miles on it, still brand new. VIN: 1332157079.
Link to auction: https://bringatrailer.com/list...ster-1957-speedster/
Here is a third one, sold out of Phoenix, Arizona which was completed by Matt in Arizona. Brand new build, says completed Feb. 2021. VIN: 117228533.
Link to auction: https://bringatrailer.com/list...speedster-replica-4/
Maybe these were promised to other clients? Not sure, hope this helps.
@WallyNeil Are you a victim of Vintage Arizona also?
@MidCentury @Andrew1111 @Dave Graziano @ADAM SCHROEDER
I sent you guys a private message about this ordeal. Hover your cursor over the blue box at the top right of the page and the drop down box will open so you can access it.
@Robert M posted:@WallyNeil Are you a victim of Vintage Arizona also?
Thankfully no. I always browse this forum in hopes of one day owning a speedster replica and felt I should share what I've observed. Hope it helps.
@Alan Merklin posted:FYI: Best to use the term "alleged" than have said individual alleged retaliate which happens all too often.
As for "alleged" representations here, I know we all get sensitized to maintain the legal out (like every car listing now says restoration "is said have been performed"). But again, while I'm not an atty, I know the bar for libel includes 1) a misstatement of fact, 2) malicious intent and 3) demonstrable damages such as monetary loss or tangible reputational loss...all of which is a stretch in this case. Just the same, good to be mindful and stick to the facts
@WallyNeil posted:Wow, this is terrible.
Did anyone see the VS new build on Bring A Trailer a few weeks ago? The seller had this car on consignment... I'm curious to know if this was a customer's car being consigned by Matt through the selling dealer (911r on Bring A Trailer) Avant-Garde Collection in Portland, pretty sure the car wasn't in the physical hands of the consigning dealership. Here is the VIN on that car's auction: VIN: 118639916. Speedster only had 360 miles on it, still brand new. Curious if Matt was taking orders funded by clients and spec-ing them out to sell on BaT to acquire more funds for the company to keep it going?
Link to auction: https://bringatrailer.com/list...a-vintage-speedster/
Here is also another one built by Vintage Speedsters of Arizona that was sold on Bring A Trailer back on 5/18/22 with 466 miles on it, still brand new. VIN: 1332157079.
Link to auction: https://bringatrailer.com/list...ster-1957-speedster/Here is a third one, sold out of Phoenix, Arizona which was completed by Matt in Arizona. Brand new build, says completed Feb. 2021. VIN: 117228533.
Link to auction: https://bringatrailer.com/list...speedster-replica-4/
Maybe these were promised to other clients? Not sure, hope this helps.
The first link shown above was NOT sold. It didn't meet the Reserve and the auction ended @ $54,500.
@Dave Graziano posted:As for "alleged" representations here, I know we all get sensitized to maintain the legal out (like every car listing now says restoration "is said have been performed"). But again, while I'm not an atty, I know the bar for libel includes 1) a misstatement of fact, 2) malicious intent and 3) demonstrable damages such as monetary loss or tangible reputational loss...all of which is a stretch in this case. Just the same, good to be mindful and stick to the facts
That doesn’t mean you’re immune to thousands of dollars of attorney’s fees if you’re dealing with a bad actor. Anyone can sue anyone for anything. It’s only after possibly thousands of dollars that a judge rules the above. I know several people who have had to deal with it.
@WallyNeil posted:Wow, this is terrible.
Did anyone see the VS new build on Bring A Trailer a few weeks ago? The seller had this car on consignment... I'm curious to know if this was a customer's car being consigned by Matt through the selling dealer (911r on Bring A Trailer) Avant-Garde Collection in Portland, pretty sure the car wasn't in the physical hands of the consigning dealership. Here is the VIN on that car's auction: VIN: 118639916. Speedster only had 360 miles on it, still brand new. Curious if Matt was taking orders funded by clients and spec-ing them out to sell on BaT to acquire more funds for the company to keep it going?
Link to auction: https://bringatrailer.com/list...a-vintage-speedster/
Here is also another one built by Vintage Speedsters of Arizona that was sold on Bring A Trailer back on 5/18/22 with 466 miles on it, still brand new. VIN: 1332157079.
Link to auction: https://bringatrailer.com/list...ster-1957-speedster/Here is a third one, sold out of Phoenix, Arizona which was completed by Matt in Arizona. Brand new build, says completed Feb. 2021. VIN: 117228533.
Link to auction: https://bringatrailer.com/list...speedster-replica-4/
Maybe these were promised to other clients? Not sure, hope this helps.
Good info. Thanks for posting. The trick now is to match those cars with possible buyers that had deposits on them.
Unfortunately, none of the above is relevant to the facts of the bankruptcy. The big picture is that a company in bankruptcy does not have the funds to repay all creditors. Creditors will be ranked by the bankruptcy court as either secured or unsecured.
Secured creditors are paid first, and are almost always institutions that have a security interest in the debtor's assets. Think banks, mortgage companies, etc.
Unsecured creditors are those like customers who pay deposits, but have no security interest in the debtor's other assets, either by collateral guarantee, lien, etc.
A local law enforcement agency, or the BK court itself, may find that the bankrupt applicant himself/herself has committed bankruptcy fraud, in which case criminal penalties may apply. However, while this may delight a creditor, it will not help repayment of any debt that is covered by the BK proceedings. If local law enforcement prosecutes a local company for criminal fraud, they need to prove intent. A competent criminal defense attorney will make it difficult to do so, absent written admissions of same. Even the local district attorney's (or prosecuting attorney) office can find it hard to prove fraud beyond a reasonable doubt. These types of prosecutions are time-consuming and expensive. Crooks know this. That's why so many unscrupulous companies go the bankruptcy route.
The foregoing is not legal advice. I have been involved in two BK proceedings as a creditor, and have learned the above, much to my dismay.
Gnash your teeth and beat your breast, but be prepared to receive bad news. BK is a federal body of law that is designed to aid the debtor, not the creditor.
I’m afraid there’s a long line of creditors waiting in front of us, maybe the govt too for unpaid taxes. As any of us have found in these situations, the one thing you can count on is, we’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg, there’s more bad news we can’t imagine yet
@Jim Kelly posted:Unfortunately, none of the above is relevant to the facts of the bankruptcy. The big picture is that a company in bankruptcy does not have the funds to repay all creditors. Creditors will be ranked by the bankruptcy court as either secured or unsecured.
Secured creditors are paid first, and are almost always institutions that have a security interest in the debtor's assets. Think banks, mortgage companies, etc.
Unsecured creditors are those like customers who pay deposits, but have no security interest in the debtor's other assets, either by collateral guarantee, lien, etc.
A local law enforcement agency, or the BK court itself, may find that the bankrupt applicant himself/herself has committed bankruptcy fraud, in which case criminal penalties may apply. However, while this may delight a creditor, it will not help repayment of any debt that is covered by the BK proceedings. If local law enforcement prosecutes a local company for criminal fraud, they need to prove intent. A competent criminal defense attorney will make it difficult to do so, absent written admissions of same. Even the local district attorney's (or prosecuting attorney) office can find it hard to prove fraud beyond a reasonable doubt. These types of prosecutions are time-consuming and expensive. Crooks know this. That's why so many unscrupulous companies go the bankruptcy route.
The foregoing is not legal advice. I have been involved in two BK proceedings as a creditor, and have learned the above, much to my dismay.
Gnash your teeth and beat your breast, but be prepared to receive bad news. BK is a federal body of law that is designed to aid the debtor, not the creditor.
Wouldn’t misleading customers, selling off assets, and moving out of state prove intent. I mean nobody robs a bank by accident.
Not to mention using the interwebs and FICA insured banks makes it a federal felony wire/banking fraud if I’m not mistaken.
Maybe you know something that hasn't been published on this site, which is where I've gotten all my knowledge of the matter.
You don't seem to get it. A competent BK attorney will advise the debtor how to maximize the amount of assets he can legally keep. Misleading customers may be unethical, and there is no law against selling corporate assets or moving locations. What a creditor sees as illegal behavior may be a debtor minimizing his losses. Of course, when a debtor reduces his losses, creditors lose once again.
You need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the above were done with intent to defraud. In addition, if you complain to a local law enforcement agency, they will enforce state laws, not federal laws.
I have not written any of this in defense of the behavior of the company or the owner. Far from it. However, I'm busy, just like all of us, and my dog isn't in this fight. Do some research. Criminals already know the law, it's the squares like us that need to understand what the law can and can't do.
Re Jim above, all very true, that is the reality. Another thing that is true, that we're all speculating way ahead of the game here and can only guess what will (likely) happen. We know Matt seems to have gone silent, the business appears to be shuttered, but we're really in the dark and it's all conjecture. He sent an email that we know of to one customer where he signaled an intention to go BK and also signaled that he's judgment-proof (broke). And the other thing we know is that we (i.e., the victims) have all allegedly learned not to trust what he says, so disregard the contents of that email, it could just be a ploy. He has not filed the business and I don't know what might force him to file it - I guess creditors filing liens, which will probably take time. This is likely a slow-moving train wreck, all we victims can do is strap in and stay tuned for opportunities to keep the pressure on
BTW also occurs to me that, unless anyone knows otherwise, we have no idea as to the ownership of the business, the legal form, etc. I believe was the principle owner and I heard him refer to Will as a minor partner. On the other hand, the legal judgment doc from the VS CA royalty procedure referred to the VS AZ "owner" as "Michael Teerink". Who knows if this was a really lame clerical error or if the owner is someone else. Unfortunately we have more questions than answers
Which molds was “AZ” using ?
Did they make new molds , or ???????
@imperial posted:Which molds was “AZ” using ?
Did they make new molds , or ???????
If you read the court case posted above you will find it; I did but can’t recall off the top of my head because it’s a convoluted story.
Yes, based on what I understand from the legal doc, it was bodies from the shop in Ensenada which would have been the VS-CA molds. Matt claimed to me that he was having trouble getting bodies from Mex this past year, had made new molds and was trying a local AZ shop making bodies...then he said they weren't sufficient quality and turned back to Mex. I don't know if there was any truth to that or just buying more time, but it appears all the AZ cars produced had the bodies from the VS-CA molds in Mex. At least that's my understanding
@Dave Graziano posted:Yes, based on what I understand from the legal doc, it was bodies from the shop in Ensenada which would have been the VS-CA molds. Matt claimed to me that he was having trouble getting bodies from Mex this past year, had made new molds and was trying a local AZ shop making bodies...then he said they weren't sufficient quality and turned back to Mex. I don't know if there was any truth to that or just buying more time, but it appears all the AZ cars produced had the bodies from the VS-CA molds in Mex. At least that's my understanding
And when he said he 'turned back to Mexico" that doesn't necessarily mean Greg's source. There are a couple of other Mexico sources.
This scenario is classic of a small company that acquires a business from another. I hope that Kirk or his family received all of his money from the sale and the sale was not structured to depend on future payments. If so at least he should be a secured creditor. It will be interesting to see if this company is acquired out of bankruptcy. It probably would have a better shot of being bought out of bankruptcy if it was still in Hawaiin Gardens and still had Kirk's crew in place so that it would be more turnkey.
As Troy says, any number of scenarios are possible...again, I'm going on what I heard from Matt. As for Kirk's payout, the legal doc would say that he got some money upfront but the bulk was to be from ensuing royalty payments which were soon terminated (and the subject of the lawsuit). I'm guessing that judgment this June spelled the end for AZ. As for whether Kirk would be a secured creditor, that could be an obligation of the business or a personal obligation of the buyer, depending on the sale agreement - either way, tough to collect now
"Criminals already know the law, it's the squares like us that need to understand what the law can and can't do." - @Jim Kelly
THIS ^
Those of us that have owned businesses or dealt with unscrupulous business partners, or employees, have learned through that experience that 'what is right and what is law are two totally separate universes'.
Let me say that again...'what is right and what is law are two totally separate universes'.
In case I didn't make it clear enough...'what is RIGHT and what is LAW are two totally SEPARATE universes'.
Yeah and while sometimes it would be nice to be back in the wild west it might not be unless your the fastest. 
@GTman posted:It probably would have a better shot of being bought out of bankruptcy if it was still in Hawaiin Gardens and still had Kirk's crew in place so that it would be more turnkey.
Yeah, with respect to that, there is a company in Hawaiian Gardens now. Vintage Motorcars, Inc. is the company. Greg Leach bought/leased the building and ALSO hired on all of Kirk's old employees who were left in the lurch by V-AZ.
Read that again: Greg hired on all of Kirk's employees who were left in the lurch by V-AZ between Christmas and New year's day about 5 years ago.
Vintage Motorcars, Inc, maker of pre-A 356 coupes, 356 Speedsters, and 550 Spyder replicas is run by Greg Leach since the early 90s. Greg used to be Vintage Spyders, and for his first 10 years or so, worked out of the exact same HG location that he is back to.
I'd say there is no need for anyone to buy any business. I hope the bankruptcy will pay off all buyers and creditors. Then let V-AZ go to the bottom of the dust-pile where it belongs. It's karma, starting off the way they did and moving out of state. Consequences.
"...and ALSO hired on all of Kirk's old employees who were left in the lurch by V-AZ."
An act that contributed greatly to my opinion of Greg and his company. Good on him!
@DannyP posted:Yeah, with respect to that, there is a company in Hawaiian Gardens now. Vintage Motorcars, Inc. is the company. Greg Leach bought/leased the building and ALSO hired on all of Kirk's old employees who were left in the lurch by V-AZ...
That was such a smart move- no learning curve training new people. It's turned out VERY well!
I am sure the workers did not want to move to AZ , but it was a smart move to hire them before they all go separate ways ,
and it seems to have worked out well for him
I'm pretty sure it was a win-win for all involved.
Not to make light of a terrible situation for everybody who's owed something by these AZ charlatans... but at the very minimum, this should finally eliminate the befuddlement of having two nearly identically named companies (Vintage Motorcar and Vintage Motorcars) each building "Vintage Speedsters" with bodies laid up by Greg Leech's guys using different molds (the subject of the linked lawsuit). It's enough to make even experienced guys corn-foozed.
Now, if we could figure out some alternative naming for the guy selling re-pop Chinese trim pieces (Vintage Speedster Parts) and Ming's company (Vintage Speed) we'd be getting somewhere.
Isn't that true. Naming confusion galore.
Yeah, and my buddy Dennis a few miles down the road from my house has a VW restoration/body business entitled "Vintage VW".
.
Speaking of Vintage Speedster Parts, they still show these in the catalog:
I'm thinking this will one day be worth more than the easy-to-find P-Car badge. They're only replicas once! Twenty years from now, they'll be making cheap copies of these in someplace like Wisconsin, and to think you can still buy the Chinese originals for bubkas!
I should probably scoop up all the remaining stock and corner the market.
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@Sacto Mitch posted:They're only replicas once!
To quote the sage from Sacramento:
"The quality is going in before the name is going on"
@Stan Galat posted:To quote the sage from Sacramento:
"The quality is going in before the name is going on"
Sorry to steal his thunder but wasn’t that Zenith advertisement
@IaM-Ray posted:Sorry to steal his thunder but wasn’t that Zenith advertisement
Well.... not quite.
The Zenith ad copy English was a little less... stilted. Almost as if English was Madison Avenue guy's native language.
Since I am not english, and having a mother tongue that is not english, what do I know about Zenith... not much except for the tv ads when I was a kid.
.
"The quality is going in before the name is going on"
It is indeed, Stan.
Here is my own VS badge, which my car still wears proudly:
At one point I toyed with the idea of replacing it with a P-Car badge, as so many of my less secure brothers have done. But eventually, I thought, we all must take responsibility for our actions. We must man up. Was I ashamed of this car or proud of it, dammit?
The badge endures.
In time, I discovered a hidden feature of the badge that is probably little appreciated. Besides proclaiming its origins, this special badge also reveals to the world the provenance of the vehicle to which it is affixed.
After about 20K miles, one of the red stripes neatly peeled off. Not in a shabby way, but crisp and clean — revealing a neat gold bar underneath. My car was coming of age. It was maturing.
And then, after another 20K miles, a second red stripe peeled away and I had discovered the hidden Easter egg.
The badge records and proudly displays, if only to the cognoscenti, the car's total accumulated mileage, in a quiet, understated manner.
I drive my 'two-bar' VS with a pride of ownership not easily described, eagerly anticipating every mile, every oil change, every carb adjustment inevitably leading us to that hallowed third gold bar.
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Well with all the naming confusion you could say that it is a Very Special Build since your in Caulifornia.
Go ahead and rock that two-bar VS with pride, @Sacto Mitch. You've earned it.
Now is coming the Time of Miller. If you are having the time, we are having the beer.
To honor the shop team without any deceit about the company name, many of the older speedsters could wear an HG nose badge. Or a Hawaiian Gardens variation on the Reutter badge, even more appropriately.
Nice patina Mitch.
Yeah, and Mitch’s car is aging well, too.
@Stan Galat posted:Go ahead and rock that two-bar VS with pride, @Sacto Mitch. You've earned it.
Now is coming the Time of Miller. If you are having the time, we are having the beer.
legit lol
Great taste you will find, we're number one of its kind
Really gutted for those that lost money...
When England, Chesil went under they had over 50 cars ordered that customers lost their money for, plus hundreds of suppliers.
I've heard the new company took on various old members of the company, one of them a guy called simon Westwood , where most peoples anger was aimed at, but now they have all been fired by the new owner after only a month or so.
Must have found out Westwood and co had turned the brand toxic.
There is another new company in the UK called Sebring speedster, and they seem to have a different way to work, by not being too big and a pay as you build model.
I'm going to keep my hopes alive here at home first though, different regulations can complicate imports.
I wish Porsche themselves build one, it'll be expensive but at least get built.
Given the prices the used market is commanding it would seem not being able to run this kind of operation is a cash and most importantly a competence issue. The $250K comment sounds like a hobby business not a real manufacturing operation. From my businesses experience and education it would take a Capitalization of at least $10m.
Hello all. I'm also a victim. Just signed with Matt in July 2022, said someone backed out of a contract due to cancer, he told me if i gave him a deposit i could get this car April 2023. Really sucks. I filed with the AG and contacted my bank. Good luck to all.
I'm sorry Steve, seem one of the many including myself. Will you bank do anything? I never thought of contacting my bank, I wired in February 2021. I filed w/AG and Goodyear police which is also looking into.
Steve,
Matt must have dealt with a lot of cancer patients, that was the story he presented me in September 2021. He is a dishonest and untrustworthy human being. At this time, I only wish the worst for him and his family. Let’s hope he finds his “Bubba” behind bars and they eat baloney sandwiches together.
Steve I'd encourage you to call Det. Baca at the Goodyear PD as well
@Napa Paul posted:???"To send money to Mathew Teernik in the future..."??? WHY in hell would anybody SEND him money, now or in the future?
This was just an auto notification showing he changed all his info and opened a new bank account with new phone number.
On behalf of @Theron I’d like to admonish everyone to limit their posts to facts re: the bankruptcy. Impugning someone’s character and congratulating them on their upcoming prison wedding are all well and good, but it puts the website in a precarious position, legally.
Like I posted previously, you don’t need a case to sue someone into oblivion, only a lawyer that will to do the dirty work for you.
As more and more people are coming out of the wood work, the stories are all the same. That's what frustrates me and I believe most of you how long this show lasted. Not until my legal action got presented to VS, the curtain slowly dropped.
For what it's worth....On 10/28 I posted FYI: Best to use the term "alleged" than have said individual alleged retaliate which happens all too often. Use the PM option for specifics to individuals. AND ...... use common sense when replying to unfamiliar persons posting.
@ADAM SCHROEDER posted:This was just an auto notification showing he changed all his info and opened a new bank account with new phone number.
My question was entirely rhetorical.
And I thought CMC was bad.......
Man, I'll never understand why some of you are so afraid. Free speech is one of the protected rights in this nation. Go back, reread the only legal advice from an actual lawyer (Jim Kelly) earlier in this thread. There's nothing even close to libelous here.
These defrauded guys (fellow members) didn't "allegedly" lose money, they gave a guy money and got nothing but broken promises and BS. This is really their thread. I'm not comfortable with all the 3rd party keyboard warrior saber rattling, but I can understand being frustrated for these guys. There, but for the grace of God go any of us.
Thieves and charlatans love it when their deeds go unreported. Mold and infection thrive in darkness. Light is by far the best disinfectant.
Theron is a big boy. He can moderate his own website.
Sorry I can only "like" Stan's post once.
@edsnova posted:Sorry I can only "like" Stan's post once.
Stan’s obviously never spent $100K and three years of his life defending himself from a bs defamation suit brought by someone who took offense to being called a liar over a misrepresented motorcycle from an online classified ad on a motorcycle forum and “called Saul.”
@dlearl476 posted:Stan’s obviously never spent $100K and three years of his life defending himself from a bs defamation suit brought by someone who took offense to being called a liar over a misrepresented motorcycle from an online classified ad on a motorcycle forum and “called Saul.”
Wow that really sucks; that guy was a real Richard, wasn’t he? 🙄🙄
@dlearl476 posted:Stan’s obviously never spent $100K and three years of his life defending himself from a bs defamation suit brought by someone who took offense to being called a liar over a misrepresented motorcycle from an online classified ad on a motorcycle forum and “called Saul.”
I was going to let this pass, but I decided to answer it.
Firstly, I'm really sorry for what you endured. It's awful to be singled out by a sociopath.
I might get hit by a runaway bus while walking on the sidewalk, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hide under my bed in case it happens. Free speech is a bit like that - stuff can happen, but living in fear of an unwarranted and irrational lawsuit seems to me like a pretty lousy way to move through life.
As to the personal aspect of your post - respectfully, Dave, you've got no idea how much I (or anybody here) have or haven't had to pay for exercising the right to express an opinion, or to defend oneself against a frivolous lawsuit (or governmental overreach). But even given that - the people sharing their experiences are not expressing opinions, they're stating facts. Cancelled checks with nothing to show for it are infinitely (by definition) different than getting something you perceive to be less than you paid for.
One is subject to interpretation, one is not.
As the saying goes” you can’t change a pickle back to a cucumber “. I like many others that work hard for the money and we’re intentionally deceived much like what happened with Bernie Madoff. For me its not about the financial impact, but more about justice and doing the right thing. I do not believe I walk alone. That’s what makes this country so great.
@Stan Galat posted:I was going to let this pass, but I decided to answer it.
Firstly, I'm really sorry for what you endured. It's awful to be singled out by a sociopath.
I might get hit by a runaway bus while walking on the sidewalk, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hide under my bed in case it happens. Free speech is a bit like that - stuff can happen, but living in fear of an unwarranted and irrational lawsuit seems to me like a pretty lousy way to move through life.
As to the personal aspect of your post - respectfully, Dave, you've got no idea how much I (or anybody here) have or haven't had to pay for exercising the right to express an opinion, or to defend oneself against a frivolous lawsuit (or governmental overreach). But even given that - the people sharing their experiences are not expressing opinions, they're stating facts. Cancelled checks with nothing to show for it are infinitely (by definition) different than getting something you perceive to be less than you paid for.
One is subject to interpretation, one is not.
Not my personal experience. One related to me over its course. Run with scissors if that makes you feel free. It’s not my call. But IMO we shouldn’t do it on Theron's white carpet.
@dlearl476 posted:Not my personal experience. One related to me over its course. Run with scissors if that makes you feel free. It’s not my call. But IMO we shouldn’t do it on Theron's white carpet.
David, Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act is what protects a content host from liability from what others post on social media. This is how platforms such as Twitter, Facebook, ect can exist. I’m with Stan, I don’t believe Theron has much to worry about, in regards to what others post.
@dlearl476 posted:Stan’s obviously never spent $100K and three years of his life defending himself from a bs defamation suit brought by someone who took offense to being called a liar over a misrepresented motorcycle from an online classified ad on a motorcycle forum and “called Saul.”
The backstory on this is probably really interesting. Perhaps you could start another thread and give us the complete story?
And you've got zero knowledge of what any one of us have been through and spent over the years, just as we've got no clue about your personal battles.
This thread is way off topic.
Please start a new thread and keep this one about Vintage and the subject at hand.
@ADAM SCHROEDER posted:This thread is way off topic.
Please start a new thread and keep this one about Vintage and the subject at hand.
You haven’t been here long enough? Thread hijacks are what makes this site what it is….🤣😂
Adam:
I understand your frustration about thread drift. It is a time honored tradition here, and I wouldn't expect that to change if I were you.
Having been registered on the site for a week, you may not be aware of that.
This certainly isn't the first time the hobby has been victimized like this and it probably won't be the last.
In at least one case, that of SAS, the folks that were taken advantage of set up their own board to exchange information and discuss legal strategies etc. Doing so in this case might alleviate your frustration and keep the discussion limited to the single topic of interest.
I hope everybody recoups their losses.
@Dave Graziano posted:Thanks for your comment. Since the backlog had grown to 3+ years, I assume there are many more recent victims. In fact Matt had bragged to me a year ago that with build prices increasing over 50% from my contracted price and the backlog growing, he had new customers who would pay a $30K premium to jump the line, and that he could get that for me if I wanted to sell. Just a guess but I'd bet he was playing games w/ that dynamic to stay afloat.
I assume he was ok when the business was predictable but when covid hit with supply chain problems he was screwed and got desperate. But he was a BSer from the beginning.
Add me to the list of people who put a deposit down !!
Well, unfortunately I’m one of the customers that got screwed out of my deposit. A few month back I told Matt I wanted my deposit back. He said he would have to get another contract on the car before that could happen. Then he told me that these cars were going for about $25 k more than my price. Like a dumb ass, I told him to keep working on it. And here I sit, out my deposit and pissed off beyond measure. I was ready to fly out there myself to aggressively encourage him to give me my money, but today I find out he went out of business. I gave him every opportunity to make things right, and he didn’t. I wouldn’t piss on him if he was on fire…unless I was pissing VP racing fuel.
Dido. I never so this coming.
Hi Folks,
my name is Christian and i own a Restauration Shop for Classic American Cars in Germany.
I do Imports since 15 Years to Germany, I never had such a bad expirience with other Shops. I ordered the first cars from Kirk Duncan, the Founder of Vintage in Hawaiian Guardans L.A.
Well a little here and a little there. Then he sold the Company to Justin, a Guy who had no Idea about cars. Then Matt took over. Well, what shoud I say: I wish i could deal with Kirk again. I had six cars in line... I was waiting on cars for over two Years. The only thing i heard from him are excuses. The Quality is very bad. I had new cars with paint chips repaired with a paint pen, two cars with burned engines after 800 Miles, wipersystem wrong installed.
So we decided to take the engines out and check them before leaving it to the customer. Not even one engine was build correct.
I had a broken front axle!!!! On a new car the steering is broken...Missing Parts...The list is so long....since August he was telling me that one of it is ready to ship. We had a fix date to pick it up, but i didn´t believe him, so i didn´t send a truck. What should i say... It was not ready. I asked for Pictures... Nothing. Six weeks later after hundreds of Messages, he told me, that the car has the wrong interieur and he is waiting on the material...
Well there was no chance to get any information from him.. Then the E-Mail with the Bankruptcy! I have nearly 140.000,00 USD in his Company, most of the Money are Deposits, the rest are complaints and the parts and labor to resolve them. I didn´t sleep that night and the first thing I thought about was how I could pay back the down payments to my customers. Thank God I had earned well in the last few years despite covid. After informing everyone, I was able to pay three quarters of it back directly. Unfortunately, part of my car collection now has to be sold in order to satisfy my customers. You won't believe what I was allowed to listen to, even though it's not my fault.
So i called my chamber of commerce and they get me to a attorney in Phoenix.
To make things clear: Here in Germany this is a scam! The deposits are to be used to cover parts and costs required to build a vehicle to our contract. And not to plug financial holes! So if anyone wants to join my lawsuit, here is my email address: chr.ruehl(at)caronics.de
That is awful @Christian Ruehl. I am so sorry for you and hope you can retrieve some of your money. Vintage Motorcars of California is a great vendor. Honest and producing great cars. Perhaps you could try them going forward.
Christian,
I feel for you and all the other victims. I have have about 38K in deposits and an additional 4K in in legal fees. I dropped my lawyer last week only for the ongoing cost. It just did not make since to keep pushing to make pennies on the dollar. Vintage Motor Cars in Hawaiian Gardens is certainly a better option for you any anyone else looking for cars and parts. I highly recommend you file with the Arizona Attorney General Office and the Goodyear PD. If you wired money to VS, I would also recommend to put a claim in to your banking institution.
I doubt there will be much money left unless he was hiding piles of money thru the years , and I doubt that ,
It is amazing how much money a poorly run business can go thru ,
Do a police report , Attorney General report and see if your bank can do anything ,
Then get on with your life ,
Sorry this happened…..
@imperial posted:I doubt there will be much money left unless he was hiding piles of money thru the years , and I doubt that ,
It is amazing how much money a poorly run business can go thru ,
Do a police report , Attorney General report and see if your bank can do anything ,
Then get on with your life ,
Sorry this happened…..
I agree about how much money a poorly run business can go thru, on the other hand, if you just look at what they all claimed was the backlog (2-3 years), minimum $25K deposit per, and a modest 2 cars estimated per month, you've got well over $1 million in deposits for undelivered cars. Even funding operations for some time with customer deposits, I would not assume it all got burned up.
...having said that...you need to prove such money exists from financial records, and then find it
Thanks all, I just found this forum thanks to Anna from VMC. I also lost money with Matt. I never did receive an email so this was helpful Troy thank you. Matt was not the most organized person for sure but I didn't see this coming. My last communication was September 10 and then no responses. He played it off till then for sure asking about "samples' I should have received. It's sad for so many people. None of us deposited our last dollars but it still stinks. The little Speedster has also been a dream of mine since I was a kid and somehow Matt has tainted it. I hope that someday I can tell the story and laugh a little. I too will contact the AZ Attorney General but not in hopes of getting any money back. I will just be more cautious in the future if I ever pursue this again. Also, good to know that there is this great community of owners....maybe someday for me too In the meantime enjoy the time you have in those little gems that I still spot miles away on any street. Blessings.
I'm really so sorry for the losses you guys have suffered - not just the money, but as Ben said, "the tainting of the dream". A dream is a hard thing to lose, harder than money, IMHO. Even worse to me is the loss of trust in other people. Not everybody will let you down, but it's really hard to know who it's going to be if you've been really, really burnt.
I hope you can all reclaim your trust.
Ben you couldn't have said it better. My dream as well that will be forever dead and it's truly painful to see one on the road or in a television ad.
Ben there is a private forum for those of us that have lost money, not sure how to add you but someone here can.
Stan, as usual you've summed up what all of us here are thinking in just a few sentences, and I regret that I only have 1 like for your post above. All of you caught in this miserable web- most of us here do feel for you, and (as Stan said), worse than the "tainting of the dream" is the loss of faith in other people. I'm sure you'll all bounce back, but yeah, it still bites. I hope you all do find cars and join our little community. Al
PS- @MidCentury- I hope that with time you'll get to the point where you can realize your dream. I've never been burned intentionally by anyone, but I did lose upwards of $60,000 in the mid-'80's in a friend's business venture (but that was because of his ineptness and my foolishness in believing "the dream") so I understand a little of what you guys are going through. Stay in touch here until you get there- this is a pretty good group (except for Danny, of course, but what can you do...
)
Thanks guys, I would love to be invited to the private forum of "Teerink" victims. BTW, nobody gets in this deep in business without first recognizing that the water is up to his knees. He had to know when it was waist deep but I am positive he took deposits when he was up to his neck in commitments. Lot's of help out there in business especially for a unique product like this. There are Angel Investors that would have loved a company like this. I am also betting dollars to donuts that he took PPP money, ERTC money, and possibly one of the EIDL loans from the SBA during the period he started struggling. So many avenues to commit fraud, I wouldn't want to be him. No one ever wants to see a document that reads "The United States of America vs. "your name here" and I bet he gets one of those before it's over. I'm glad I only lost $20k+/- and not my dignity.
It is really offensive to be scammed but unfortunately as our resident Cyrano Stan, has so eloquently mentioned it does frustrate to find out human nature continues to disappoint us. If you live long enough you will face a situation like this, unfortunately.
I would like to be added to the private forum too. I live in Phoenix and have been by the shop multiple times over the last month.
In 2003 I built the first Subaru powered Spyder ever with Greg Leach at the then Vintage Spyders. First Subaru car ever for Greg so he asked me to source the engine. There was a company in Temecula that was rebuilding Subaru engines and putting them in sand rails. I met the owner and discussed my build with the engine builder. I even asked the owner whether I should purchase a new short block. He assured me that he would use a low mileage engine and it would be fine. When I got the car it had so much crank case pressure it would blow the crankcase breather filters off and drench the engine compartment with oil. Did a blow by test which showed incredibly high pressures. Turns out the engine builder had quit months earlier and the owner was going out of business and selling people old worn out turbo charged sand rail engines. I guess I’m lucky to have received any engine. So I had to buy a new short block and have the engine rebuilt. A buddy of mine rebuilt it. $5k later I was back on the road. I guess $5k is not that much but this was 2003. The whole thing put a really bad taste in my mouth. Mentioned I was thinking about selling the car on Spyderclub.com. Some rich guy from Ft Lauderdale called the next day and asked me how much I had paid for the car originally and I told him $36k. He offered me $37k and I said sure. He sent a truck and a cashiers check the next day. Got heavily into motorcycles and sport touring. I built a Caterham Super 7 myself and eventually got an intermeccanica. But I never stopped thinking about spyders. In 2017 I called Greg Leach and told him I was ready to try again. Talked to John at Outfront and insisted on a new short block. I’ve got over 5k miles on the car and have never had an issue. So don’t give up. Do your homework. A dream doesn’t always have to turn into a nightmare.
I'd like to be invited to the private forum as well. I'm going to talk with the AG and Goodyear PD also.
The unfortunately is nothing new to report either in the private forum or this thread. At this time no one has heard from either the PD or the Arizona AG office in regards to if they are going to be filing charges. The AZ police have advised not to call them to file any reports as they have so many at this time. All complaints need to be filed with the AZ AG office then if they take the case they will compile all info and work with Goodyear PD. There is a law firm (Turner Law Firm) in AZ which has taken the case of a couple different people however there is a heavy retainer plus hourly fees. I was the first to file with AZ police and AZ AG and have not heard a word since doing so.
Does anyone have a count as to how many of us lost deposits, I would also need a total dollar amount lost to see if attractive enough for a class action?
I'll do some homework to see if an attorney will take our case on contingency.
Sorry PM me
It’s over $1m I can assure you.
I think if people want to keep talking to police that they should do , i never heard of a police force saying stop calling us to report a crime ?? The more people the better. They will have a better understanding of everybody's situation . Please keep complaining to everbody . I don’t want Matthew Teerink to get away with anything .
Almost 30k for me
The Goodyear police have specifically told me to remove my initial post with the phone number and my case number. They are taking no further reports and encourage all parties to contact the AZ Attorney Generals office. They must take the case first and will determine if there are criminal charges to file. Until they can prove fraud there is nothing you can do to persuade them. Simply running a bad business is not a crime. That is a civil matter, not a police matter. The AZ AG is reviewing all complaints. Now if he sent you a vin or progress pics of a car, then sold that car to another party knowing this, then that is fraud. That is what they need.
@Andrew1111 posted:I think if people want to keep talking to police that they should do , i never heard of a police force saying stop calling us to report a crime ?? The more people the better. They will have a better understanding of everybody's situation . Please keep complaining to everbody . I don’t want Matthew Teerink to get away with anything .
It reminded me of the message I got once... leave a report of your theft and we will get back to you... they never did get back to me and this was after two thefts in our area. We don't have property rights and we don't have a second amendment here either.
In my experience (30+ years as a newspaper reporter), city and state police have neither the skill set nor the inclination to investigate fraud. Cops love to chase car-jackers and drug dealers; every so often they'll go after a "serial rapist." But flim-flam artists? Pyramid schemers? Insurance and mortgage fraud rings?
Forget about it.
You're more likely to find a municipal cop committing those crimes than solving them.
In all my time as a reporter I can recall only one instance in which a local law enforcement agency announced and pressed criminal fraud charges against someone over a business dispute. It was Sheriff Kevin Beary of Orange County Florida. The defendant was an Orange County deputy sheriff . . . who had just announced his candidacy for high sheriff.
Now it is true that the US Attorney from time to time will rouse him- or her-self to target fraud. But private business frauds are way down on their list. Way below, say, food stamp fraud, or mortgage fraud, or public corruption, which are way below a lot of the drug gang sweeps, terrorism investigations and other stuff they do. Some FBI guys, Posties, etc. know how to read a spreadsheet, but even they don't spend much time on that.
It's a matter of resources.
If anyone wants to get a working idea of how much fraud can be carried on, unmolested by the constabulary, gendarmes, or assorted jack-booted flatfoots of any description, just google pink sheets stocks and dive into a few companies. There are thousands of them. Don't invest.
@edsnova posted:... But flim-flam artists? Pyramid schemers? Insurance and mortgage fraud rings?
Forget about it.
You're more likely to find a municipal cop committing those crimes than solving them.
... or taking deposits on Speedsters, as the case seems to be.
Google: Officer Matt Teerink, Phoenix City Police. I'm no longer confused with the indifference being shown by Goodyear's finest.
I was always under the impression that Vintage Arizona bought the Vintage Speedsters company and that gave them the legal right to advertise that they had built over 3,300 Speedsters. Turns out that they only bought the Vintage Speedsters assets, not the company so I don't see how claiming you built thousands of Speedsters when you only built a few wouldn't be fraud. Making that claim is what gave the buyers the confidence they were dealing with an upstanding company and write deposit checks for 50% of the Speedsters total cost. I'm no attorney, but if that's not fraud, I don't know what is.
The legal definition of fraud is the same for civil and criminal matters.
The difference is in the burden of proof. A civil plaintiff must prove their case by a preponderance of evidence. That's like 50 percent plus a wink. A criminal prosecutor has to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. That's a lot harder.
Example: When DJT formed "Trump University" to sell real estate seminars and "coaching" to gullible people for $35,000, and did it without notifying New York higher education regulators even as he claimed Columbia, Stanford and Northwestern University were affiliated with the scam. He operated out of his pocket and lacked even the most basic corporate clothing; Trump personally owned 93 percent of the business.
Trump lied about picking the instructors personally. He lied about everything, basically. TU was by every public measure an open/shut felony case for any state attorney general who cared to take the task.* NY AG Eric Schneiderman ended up leading the charge—as a civil matter.
Trump ended up agreeing to pay $25 million to settle. Months before that I called Schneiderman's office to enquire as to why, given such a juicy target, he chose civil instead of criminal.
His spokesman never answered it. She claimed (falsely, it turned out) that her boss's hands were tied by a provision in the law that prohibited him from developing the criminal case without first getting a referral from a law enforcement agency.
Trump, of course, was able to pay the settlement. That's what makes a civil claim viable.
In our instant matter, it is doubtful that the defendant will have sufficient assets to attach. And that's why fraud goes unpunished.
All that said, the line between fraud (Trump has spent his career on the far side of it) and normal business failure is blurry. Vintage Arizona may have had every intention of making good on its promises, suffered unforeseeable financial setbacks, and collapsed more or less honestly. That happens every day, particularly as economic conditions shift.
=
*The main impediment to Trump's "university" was that the flipping houses market was already saturated. When TU appeared, Baltimore City had at least three notorious "real estate schools" operating on the same principles. At least one still operates and is one of the state judiciary's online portal's most consistent advertiser. Fraud, unchecked, begets fraud.
I got caught up in the CMC backordered parts debacle back in late '80. I was lucky, I did get all my parts and some cash compensation before the Florida Attorney General took action against George Levin. This was before the internet, so I was flying on my own. Seems someone needs to summarize all these cases and publish an article on (I guess) RCN magazine to warn others of issues. I've not seen VS AZ's demise anywhere but here. A side mention of SAW/SAS would add interest.
I find it weird that there is still a CMC web site!
@edsnova posted:In our instant matter, it is doubtful that the defendant will have sufficient assets to attach. And that's why fraud goes unpunished.
All good points, and clearly civil fraud is the sensible claim. I would only argue the point about the defendant being judgment-proof. Having collected well over $1m in deposits for un-built cars, with rent and major obligations paid current, never a late payroll (not to mention a 5-month orchestrated exit from the scene)...these are not the indicators of a business that has been having cash flow issues and has stretched its resources until there was no more.
The leaked email with claims of poverty was a good ruse. It could be he was that poor a businessman to burn through all the deposit money, but I wouldn't operate on that assumption.
RCN won't be interested in any article that sheds light on dishonesty and fraud in the replicar industry. There will be no advertiser or possible advertiser negativity. They prefer to sweep everything under the carpet. Unicorns and rainbows, everybody!
Get real, Greg.