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70E3DA1D-CF7D-4CB7-B442-D3DDCC6661EAA lot of people have asked me the details about my speedster so I thought I would start a new thread. Let me start with a disclaimer: this is what I have found that works well through my experience  

I will start with the engine. I have a 2276cc. I’m running a doghouse cooler set up and a setrab oil cooler with a fan up front behind the horn grill. I used 1/2 SS lines to run the oil from front to rear. Cooling is the most critical part of these engines. 
I decided to go with a dry sump for several reasons. First, you make more power. The crank isn’t cutting through oil every time it rotates. This adds about 15 hp. Second, it takes care of the dreaded oil sloshing into the heads, which can starve the engine during long corners. Third, more oil capacity. I built a 8 quart sump in the spirit of the original Carrera cars. 

To make decent horsepower the engine needs to breathe. I have 42x37.5 heads that are port matched to the intakes. I’m running 44idf carbs with the CB update kit (38mm Venturi). I have a 1 5/8 exhaust that runs into a 2 1/2 flowmaster. 
I run a magnaspark distributor with a cdi 

I run an Engle 125 cam with 1:1.1 stock ratio rockers and super duty aluminum pushrods. I have had terrible luck with chromoly pushrods and would never recommend them. Plus they are really loud. 

I’ll stop here and open it up to questions. I’ll probably talk about suspension next. Thanks 

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Curtiss, this will be interesting for me to follow, as I've been on a similar path.

I've done HPDE and autocross with my Spyder. I had over 40,000 miles on my type1 which was equipped with a 2165cc Raby motor. In an ineffective attempt at reducing blow-by, I also did a dry sump conversion. The rings were worn out, but I took care of that last summer. I also sent the heads out and had them redone.

Motor is 78 x 94, Mahle pistons, CB forged crank and I-beam rods. Headflow Masters(Adrian Audirac) 44x37 flowed, welded and port-matched heads, welded manifolds also. 52cc combustion chambers, and 10.2:1 static compression.

Webcam 86B, Pauter 1.5:1 roller-rockers. Chromoly pushrods. I had the opposite experience as you, the aluminum pushrods mushroomed, so were replaced with steel. High seat/spring pressure on the valves did the aluminum pushrods in.

It has 1 5/8" primaries to twin mufflers, then a merge to a single center 3" outlet.

I installed a Megajolt distributor-less ignition a long time ago, and added a new hidden crank trigger on the backside of the crank pulley from thedubshop.com.

The performance is great, it feels better than when it was new with the added free-revving of the dry sump. Also, I notice the engine stays very clean, no blow-by anymore(good case vacuum and Berg sand seal). I never had any oil pressure issues before, but now I have ZERO worry about oil starvation. 

I bought an 8 quart aluminum tank from Speedway Motors, and run it a little over half full. If you add the capacity of the filter, cooler, and lines it holds about 7 quarts.

I have a lot of fun at PCA DEs at Lime Rock Park and doing a couple autocross events per season. I need stickier tires, it is very easy to overdrive the street "touring" tires.

DannyP, do you know exactly what pushrods you were using?  I ordered a set of the Aircooled.net heavy duty aluminum pushrods.  They are supposed to be good to 500 psi spring pressure.

Also, our cams have the same duration, but you are running a ton more lift.  I opted for less lift to reduce the wear on the valve guides.  There is very little flow difference on ported heads at .500 lift and .600 lift. 

Next topic: Suspension upgrades.  (I have narrowed IRS and a Balljoint front end)

A little background first.  The stock wheel spring rates for the VW bugs are 100# front and 100# rear.  The front wheels carry about 350# on each wheel.  So if you hit a bump the spring will want to move 3.5 inches.  The rear wheels carry about 550# each, so 5.5 inches of travel.  This is way too much travel to be effective for "sporty driving."  If you look at the way a track car is set up a mild set up is for about 2 inches of travel.  A very aggressive set up is for about 1 inch of travel.  A good resource is swayaway.  I am running 27 mm torsion bars in the rear, which gives a wheel spring rate of 222#.  That means about 2.5 inches of travel.  I wanted 2 inches of travel but i wimped out at the last second and ordered 27 mm bars instead of 28 mm bars.  This set up (222 pound springs) is still street-able, but you definitely feel the road.  

The front is where things get tricky.  There just aren't a lot of options out there.  Swayaway makes a stiffer set of torsion leafs, but they are only 15% stiffer.  So you would end up with 3 inches of travel.  That said, an alternative had to be found.  I ended up converting my Bilstein B6 shocks to coilovers.  Now the gates were wide open to infinite spring rates.  This set up uses a 2.5" ID spring, which is one of the most popular sizes.  A few notes: I had to slightly clearance the inside of the upper torsion arm and open up the shock mount hole (ball joint) to get everything to fit, but it does.  If you are starting from scratch, there are smaller diameter coil overs out there that would likely drop right in.  I'm running a 140/250 progressive (variable) spring.  So rather than a linear response, it gets stiffer as it is compressed.  This takes some of the beating out of your backside when you drive on the streets.  

Now the interesting thing about variable springs is when you set the car down the "softer" side of the spring compresses first.  So for my car it basically totally compresses the 140 pound section.  So why not just use a linear spring?  When you hit a pot hole, the softer part of the spring quickly goes down and back up.  So the jolt is softer.  When you are driving on a track the spring is primarily running on the stiffer 250 pound section giving great flat cornering.

I have the run of the mill 3/4" sway bars on the front and rear.  I am also running a rack and pinion, which makes a mountain of difference.  If you have the dough, this is the best upgrade you can do to one of these cars.  

Napa Paul posted:

Have you checked out Vredestein Sportrac5's for your need of "stickier tires?" They're "Dry only" and several SOC owners (myself included) are quite pleased with their performance. Let me know if you're interested and I'll forward the info as to their ONLY source in the US of A. 

 

I have the link. It's on my to-do list. But some things are on hold for now.

curtissb posted:

DannyP, do you know exactly what pushrods you were using?  I ordered a set of the Aircooled.net heavy duty aluminum pushrods.  They are supposed to be good to 500 psi spring pressure.

Also, our cams have the same duration, but you are running a ton more lift.  I opted for less lift to reduce the wear on the valve guides.  There is very little flow difference on ported heads at .500 lift and .600 lift. 

My lift is .550" at the valve. I don't know what aluminum pushrods they were. I sent them back to Jake and withing a week a new set of chromoly came via Fedex. Free. For a 5 year-old engine. THAT'S CUSTOMER SERVICE! 

My little 2165 revs well, and has torque, 147 ft. lbs. and 172 hp. I'm not changing a thing.

After 45k, my guides were in good shape, so not a ton of valve wear, the 86B has shallow ramp angles.

Suspension stuff: Koni adjustable front, 2" shortened beam, custom 16mm bar made by me(came from an early 911, I fabricated end links and bushings).

Rear end is swingaxle with custom tubular trailing arms(way longer tham Bug, mid-engine Spyder) and QA1 double-adjustable coilovers w/275 pound springs. Greg at Vintage uses custom-valved Bilsteins and 250 pound springs. No bar in the back, but I have downward limiting straps to prevent positive camber from happening. I also have the bearings under the spring seats, and corner-balance the car on scales.

Love your suspension mods Curtiss, I'd love to drive that thing.

I installed a 220 degree “idiot light” so I can at least be aware when things are heating up. I have also calibrated my temp gauge. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THIS. My temp gauge is at 240 degrees at about the 11:30 position. This is why I cooked my previous motor. I thought I was fine running in the middle of my gauge. Like Gene Berg says, gauges are good if they give you good information. 

calibration procedure: get a can and fill it half way with the oil that you use. I used an electric hot plate to heat the oil. Don’t tell my wife, but I used her very expensive fast read kitchen thermometer to test the temperature. I pulled my temp sender (extend the signal wire from your engine bay) and placed it in the oil. Just turn your ignition on and you can watch the temp gauge go up. I put a piece of masking tape on the face of the gauge so I could mark the temperatures I was interested in. When I was done I used a paint pen and marked my gauge. 

I'm having some issues with temperature in my Subie in my Beck.  My VDO oil gauge indicates about 220, and it ain't even summer yet!  I noticed that they only installed a large single fan on the radiator but Cary said that it was sufficient. I'm thinking of puling my clock out of the dash and installing a water gauge.  I'm wondering what the WATER temperature will be... Also, I need to find out where the sending unit is located on the engine.

Meade

IaM-Ray posted:

You guys seem to be growing in number, have you installed cylinder head temp guages and do the temp numbers show an advantage to the cooling of no. 3 cylinder?  Just wondering, I love the dry sump concept just never had it and I don't think it would do in my subie   

I really don't think the dry sump does a whit to cool the engine or the oil. The dry sump does two things: it ensures a continuous supply of non-foamy oil AND it prevents windage(or sloshing of oil wrapped around the crankshaft). The reduced sloshing frees up a couple HP because of decreased air resistance to the spinning crank.

If the dry sump oil tank is designed properly, the oil return swirls down the wall of the tank, becoming liquid and removing any air in the oil.

I put my dry sump in specifically for crankcase breathing and vapor reduction. It was a failed attempt to reduce blow-by, but that could only be fixed by new rings and cylinders.

The engine MAY run a little cooler due to the reduced friction/sloshing/foaming.

Only Stan put the 911 piston squirters in. I did not. The dry sump setup does not automatically mean piston squirters. The dry sump is a bolt-on and does not require complete disassembly. 911 squirters and Hoover mods do require a case split and some machining(and cleaning!). They are two completely unrelated things.

curtissb posted:

The dry sump itself does not help with cooling, but it does give more oil capacity. A good dry sump setup also has an external cooler on a thermostat (exactly the way Porsche built the four cam engines) which does keep the engine cooler. 

Correctomundo. Already had the full flow/external cooler/filter setup.

Adding Autocraft dry sump suction piece was kind of easy. All the studs were easy to replace with longer ones(Cast aluminum part is THICK), except the one that holds the pickup tube. I may have thrown a wrench or two that day, but I got it. An open-end wrench broke, and the piece that broke off went into the engine. Of course it did, engine was upside-down on the stand. I got the piece out with lots of patience and a telescoping magnet.

DannyP posted:
An open-end wrench broke, and the piece that broke off went into the engine. Of course it did, engine was upside-down on the stand. I got the piece out with lots of patience and a telescoping magnet.

A few years ago, I just had to have a twin-plug setup. I had sold myself on all the advantages, which are mostly for engines with a substantially bigger bore than the standard 94 mm Type 1, but I wanted this. Badly. And when I want something, I generally don't stop until I've accomplished it or ruined something valuable in the effort.

I had a guy make scrap metal out of a $1000 set of CB Super-Pro heads trying to machine in the second plugs. Undaunted, I started over at ground zero-- bought a set of Rev-Master 049 twin plug heads, and had them CNC ported by Rev-Master Automotive (who I'm sure subcontracted them to DRD). I got them exactly a year after I had embarked on this fools errand, and I spent another 6 months and many more thousands of dollars getting the long-block together. All that was left was dressing the engine.

It was late in the spring, too late to be doing this little project-- but I was hard at it in the garage, determined to get this thing on the road by the 4th of July.

The second set of plugs in a set of 049 twin-plug heads are accessed through the rocker box. The process involves taking off the valve-covers. In the bottom of the rocker box are two little plates, and under the plates are holes where the plugs can be accessed. It's a slick set-up, and the plugs come into the chamber at a good angle (instead of being badly canted). Anyhow, the head is spot faced around the holes, and the plates seal to the head with two tiny little screws and a bit of flange sealant. It's kinda cool, if a bit Byzantine. 

On this particular evening, I was running plug wires. I had the engine completely dressed otherwise, and this was the last task on the list. The engine was on the stand, and I was removing the plates to get access to the plugs. I had the 3/4 head pointed straight up so I could see everything better. I removed one screw, then the second-- and I saw it happening

i  n    s  l  o  w    m  o  t  i  o  n.

You know what happened. We all know what happened.

I dropped one of the size very tiny screws right down a pushrod tube. It was a perfect shot, and I couldn't do it again if I was being paid for it. I could hear it rattling around as it went down the hole. It seemed to take about 30 seconds to find paydirt, and sounded like it was taking the scenic route, bouncing off everything along the way before it stopped.

I thought I was going to throw up. I contemplated suicide, looking for a hook to throw a rope over.

But I was in luck! I could see the little chunk of micro-hardware by shining a light down the pushrod tube. It was laying on the lifter, leaning against the base of the pushrod. I tried to get it with a magnet, but the screw was steel, the pushrod was steel, and the lifter was steel. There is also considerably less real estate inside a pushrod tube (with the pushrod installed) than one might suppose. I needed a cleaner shot.

I very carefully loosened the rocker adjustment like it was the detonator to a nuclear bomb, and ever so carefully pulled the pushrod up in the hope that the screw would fall into the pocket of the lifter. I was looking with the light (held in my mouth) while I gently pulled the pushrod. I lifted ever so gingerly...

... and the screw teetered on the edge of the lifter, before bouncing its way into the bowels of the engine.

My shoulders slumped. I breathed a heavy sigh. I did not yell, or swear, or rage. I just walked over to the door and shut off the light and went inside. I contemplated why I thought I was anything more than an ape with tools. I went to bed and looked at the ceiling. I pondered taking up heavy drinking. I went through the 5 stages of grief. I castigated myself for the life decisions that had brought me to that point. I decided I truly hated cars in general and this car in particular. I bargained with God. I thought of boxing up the (nearly complete) engine to be 100% torn down to find a ridiculous little piece of micro-hardware. I thought about skipping town and hitching a ride on a freight train. I contemplated hauling the whole thing in for scrap. 

I pictured that screw getting sucked up the pick-up and happily grinding it's way though many thousands of dollars worth of softer metal. I envisioned the discussion I'd have with my long-suffering wife explaining why her special needs husband needed to inject another few grand into the garage art out in the shop. I pictured my father never laying eyes on my mother, and contemplated what a happy place the world would have been if they never met. I imagined the shame and anger of missing an entire season of driving-- all because I just had to be the cool kid with this twin-plug nonsense, and because I'm blessed with an ego unencumbered by intellect, fingers the size and shape of bratwurst, and a brain the size of a walnut.

About 4:30 AM, I got dressed and went back out, ready to face my Waterloo.

I slowly turned the engine to level. I rocked the engine around on the stand like I was mad at it (not that I was, or anything). I was attempting to rattle anything that might be squatting up on a lifter boss or in some other hidey-hole loose. I prayed that the Lord would grant me mercy, and somehow help me get this thing out or allow me to die in the effort.

... and then I started sweeping the entire sump with a magnet, which was no small feat considering the pickup leaves about 1/4" of space around it.

After a minute or two of graceless sweeping, none of which I was entirely sure was even touching the tip of the magnet to the bottom of the sump, I pulled out it out.

And there it was-- right on the tip, like a little beacon of love. The only thing missing was the sky opening, and the hand of God Almighty reaching out to touch my flaccid finger like Michelangelo's "Creation" scene in the Sistine Chapel. I'm pretty sure I heard angels singing, and the sun broke over the horizon at the very moment of rapture.

I was spared.

I went inside. I didn't touch one thing on the engine that morning. I made a big breakfast, I went to work. I lived to fight another day.

 

Last edited by Stan Galat

Hope you feel better now, Stan. BTY , my car has a dry sump system so maybe I'm   # 4 in your list. 

My number two Son, Jesse felt the ire of the dropping screw for the first time in his life while helping me with the Soob Frankenmotor install in the Speedster. The oil filler tube is fixed onto the top of the right side valve cover by two small screws. While making sure he had the right screw he dropped it right down into the valve train. A probe magnet found nothing available and nothing was in sight. He said "  I'll get it just leave me alone". I took the BSA out for a short run after telling my Wife not to bother Jesse in the garage. I came back about 1/2 hour later and the bugger is sitting with his feet up having a cold one in the garage and smiling. He couldn't pull it up and out so he loosened the two valve cover screws, pulled the valve cover out a bit ( there's about 1/4" clearance to the frame rail otherwise you pull the engine to get the covers off ) , found the screw and pulled it out the bottom. I let him ride the BSA that day.  

Also, if one carries 12 litres of oil instead of four or five would that imply that oil change frequencies would decrease in proportion ? 

Last edited by David Stroud IM Roadster D
David Stroud IM Roadster D posted:

Hope you feel better now, Stan. BTY , my car has a dry sump system so maybe I'm   # 4 in your list. 

Also, if one carries 12 litres of oil instead of four or five would that imply that oil change frequencies would decrease in proportion ? 

One would think so, David. As 911's are also dry sumped, does anyone know what the factory suggested oil change intervals are?

@Stan Galat wrote- "...and I saw it happening

i  n    s  l  o  w    m  o  t  i  o  n.

You know what happened. We all know what happened... 

What a well written piece- your story had me re-living yours and every "oh CRAP!" moment I've had to endure (and I've had a few!). You know, I've never told you this before, but now that we've met I feel I can say that for an ape your command of the language and your prose always amazes me! 

Have a great self-isolated evening everybody!

Yoda out...

 

As one who has 11 or 12 liters of oil in my engine, I get it changed each Spring, and if I have put more miles than usual on it during the Summer, I get it changed before Winter storage.  As Stan says, it's the age and acidity of the oil you need to be concerned with.  Two filters need to be changed each time, also.

And an oil change for my car ain't cheap...

And Stan, you forgot me..."I now know of 3 guys who are dry-sumped-- you, Danny, and me. I'll never go back."  

Add in my compatriot David Stroud, and we have at least five members of the Dry Sump Society.

Last edited by Bob: IM S6
Bob: IM S6 posted:

As one who has 11 or 12 liters of oil in my engine, I get it changed each Spring, and if I have put more miles than usual on it during the Summer, I get it changed before Winter storage.  As Stan says, it's the age and acidity of the oil you need to be concerned with.  Two filters need to be changed each time, also.

And an oil change for my car ain't cheap...

And Stan, you forgot me..."I now know of 3 guys who are dry-sumped-- you, Danny, and me. I'll never go back."  

Add in my compatriot David Stroud, and we have at least five members of the Dry Sump Society.

Everything cost more when your in the stratosphere of IM ownership   Good for you. 

Having a dry sump system is great.  Depending on where your dry sump tank is located as to level with motor or above over a period of time the oil level will rise in the crankcase.

Where am I going with this? 

If you store or park your car for the winter you may want to have a shut off valve or remove the inlet line to the pump to prevent oil seeping into the crankcase.

I known people to have a dry sump system store a vehicle for months and go to start it and when checking the oil level they add a few quarts/liters only to hydro the engine when firing or once the pump begins to scavenge they have excess oil in the tank.

Will it start if the oil crancase is full?  If it does would'nt a note to self be a better way.  While a shut off valve is a good idea, I can see someone forgetting to turn it on and smoking the engine ...

I think I would make myself a note to not add any oil how long would it take to pump the sump dry?  

Just a thought.  

Hand brakes are forgotten on all the time etc etc. An oil shutoff would scare me. 

Anthony posted:

 

If you store or park your car for the winter you may want to have a shut off valve or remove the inlet line to the pump to prevent oil seeping into the crankcase.

I known people to have a dry sump system store a vehicle for months and go to start it and when checking the oil level they add a few quarts/liters only to hydro the engine when firing or once the pump begins to scavenge they have excess oil in the tank.

I've discovered that my engine / dry sump system will allow some seepage as Anthony mentions above. I think that may be called wet sumping. Older British bikes were famous for it.

My last Roadster run before today was in Florida about a month ago. Oil level was perfect. I checked the dipstick on the motor today before startup and it was about a litre over. No big deal but some smoke on startup too. I checked the oil level in the remote sump when all was warmed up after a 20 km drive and all was correct. I then checked the dipstick in the engine and it was back to normal = full. 

Radial aircraft engines are famous for this and Jim Kimball down in Florida came up with a electric shutoff valve that was switched in such a way that the engine's starter would not work if the oil valve was still shut off.  If you hydro lock a radial aircraft engine various things can go very bad quickly...like bent connecting rods etc. My small 5 cylinder radial engine has two cylinders below the center of the crankshaft. After shutdown, on number four cylinder there is a little tin can hanging under the downward facing exhaust pipe to collect oil that might drip out of the exhaust valve and on number five cylinder there is a small valve you open to let any errant oil hanging around the low spot on the intake runner. 

 

Last edited by David Stroud IM Roadster D

@David Stroud IM Roadster D wrote- "...about a month ago. Oil level was perfect. I checked the dipstick on the motor today before startup and it was about a litre over. No big deal but some smoke on startup too. I checked the oil level in the remote sump when all was warmed up after a 20 km drive and all was correct. I then checked the dipstick in the engine and it was back to normal = full..."  

I'm confused, David- I thought that with a dry sump system there was almost no oil in the crankase. Why would you have a full 2½ quarts of oil in the engine- the wet sump would be full? The whole idea of a dry sump system is that there is no appreciable amount of oil in the crankcase area to be whipped around- correct? Doesn't the scavenge stage suck it out into the remote tank as fast as it's pumped in?

Last edited by ALB
ALB posted:

@David Stroud IM Roadster D wrote- "...about a month ago. Oil level was perfect. I checked the dipstick on the motor today before startup and it was about a litre over. No big deal but some smoke on startup too. I checked the oil level in the remote sump when all was warmed up after a 20 km drive and all was correct. I then checked the dipstick in the engine and it was back to normal = full..."  

I'm confused, David- I thought that with a dry sump system there was almost no oil in the crankase. Why would you have a full 2½ quarts of oil in the engine- the wet sump would be full? The whole idea of a dry sump system is that there is no appreciable amount of oil in the crankcase area to be whipped around- correct? Doesn't the scavenge stage suck it out into the remote tank as fast as it's pumped in?

Interesting point, Al and it's quite possible that I don't know exactly what I have. I didn't build the system, don't have a diagram for it and have never seen one before. Is it possible that I have an " auxiliary" type remote oil system rather than a true dry sump system ?  My engine does have it's stock type dipstick and there is oil showing on it from the stock VW sump. 

Edit:   I just checked Henry's website and my car is still in the "sold" section of used IM's for sale. It does mention there that the engine is high performance 2332 cc with dry sump and 911 reservoir. I just went out to check the engine's dipstick again and it's still at the full mark. Something amiss ? 

Last edited by David Stroud IM Roadster D

David,

It's a dry-sump system-- but I think it's got a CB oil pump, which isn't as nice as a Bugpack or AutoCraft.

Regardless, you don't ever check a dry-sump system in the crankcase. It's dry when running, and the only thing you have in it when not running is what bleeds back.

You want to check is in the tank, on level ground, with the engine running and warmed up. The tank is your sump. You carry oil in the tank, not in the engine.

Last edited by Stan Galat

David:

Where is the oil dipstick on your set up?  With a dry sump, the only dipstick is the one in the oil tank, which in my car is in the back right, accessible from the engine compartment.  There is no oil dipstick as part of the engine itself.

The oil filler is is also remote from the engine.  I have to remove the oil cap, and inside is a dipstick.

I have to check the oil while the engine is running, warmed up, on level ground.  That gives me a true measure of what oil is in the system.

 

Last edited by Bob: IM S6
Bob: IM S6 posted:

David:

Where is the oil dipstick on your set up?  With a dry sump, the only dipstick is the one in the oil tank, which in my car is in the back right, accessible from the engine compartment.  There is no oil dipstick as part of the engine itself.

The oil filler is is also remote from the engine.  I have to remove the oil cap, and inside is a dipstick.

I have to check the oil while the engine is running, warmed up, on level ground.  That gives me a true measure of what oil is in the system.

 

His engine is a converted T1, and therefore has a dipstick tube on the engine. This is the confusion. I've got mine capped and plugged, but if the last guy just left it in there to keep oil from spewing out, I can understand the confusion.

Regardless-- don't look at that one, David-- it's meaningless.

Stan:  Here is a shot of David's set up.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...m-72157697419866162/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...62/with/43551363524/

David:  Use the dipstick under the silver oil filler cap at the side, to check your oil level, car warm, engine running, on level ground.  There is a dipstick under the filler cap.

Last edited by Bob: IM S6
Stan Galat posted:

David,

It's a dry-sump system-- but I think it's got a CB oil pump, which isn't as nice as a Bugpack or AutoCraft.

Regardless, you don't ever check a dry-sump system in the crankcase. It's dry when running, and the only thing you have in it when not running is what bleeds back.

You want to check is in the tank, on level ground, with the engine running and warmed up. The tank is your sump. You carry oil in the tank, not in the engine.

Yes, checking the oil dipstick under the filler cap on the oil tank is what I was taught to do and that is what I do. Everything level and everything running and warmed up. Someone noticed that I do still have the original oil dipstick on the crankcase so me being me, I look at that sometimes too. 

Thank you all for your advice and concern. Motor on, eh  ? 

Bob: IM S6 posted:

Stan:  Here is a shot of David's set up.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...m-72157697419866162/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/...62/with/43551363524/

David:  Use the dipstick under the silver oil filler cap at the side, to check your oil level, car warm, engine running, on level ground.  There is a dipstick under the filler cap.

Shyt, Bob....that's a nice looking car, eh ? About $19,000 USD and the Bride and I got a nice cross Canada tour to boot. Thanks again for the info / confirmation.

I know, Ray...it's got patina which you're not so fond of...but hey, I've got it too. Trademark windshield treatment too. 

You guys are funny, dry sump society....

David, two things control oil seep into the crankcase. The first is the height of the tank, if it is appreciably higher than the pump inlet, the height can exert some pressure(measured in inches of water, or in this case, oil) on the pump gears. The second is the closeness of fitment in the pump gears. You could put a solenoid in the line or a valve, but I wouldn't. Too much chance of forgetting the valve or failure of a solenoid valve.

I don't know about the CB pump, but I do know that the Autocraft and Bugpack pumps have suction gears that are about 2x the length of the pressure side. Just like the 911 pump.....so any oil that may be in the crankcase is gone in a second or two of startup.

It is easier to control the height of the tank in a Spyder, there is more room in front of the engine. I have zero oil migration into my old "wet sump", even after the winter of sitting. What is funny is my dipstick is still in the engine to cap the tube. But I still use it. Just not in the normal location. I modified and installed a Vanagon dipstick tube, it is much longer and made it easier to check the oil with the old system and the 911 shroud. It's about a foot long, so it allows me to use it in the dry sump tank, then store it in the engine. I know it's weird, but it works well.

FYI, there is no crying in the DSS. HA!

Last edited by DannyP
Meade posted:

I'm having some issues with temperature in my Subie in my Beck.  My VDO oil gauge indicates about 220, and it ain't even summer yet!  I noticed that they only installed a large single fan on the radiator but Cary said that it was sufficient. I'm thinking of puling my clock out of the dash and installing a water gauge.  I'm wondering what the WATER temperature will be... Also, I need to find out where the sending unit is located on the engine.

Meade

The coolant temp sensor is on the coolant manifold on top of the engine, Meade. Image search Subaru coolant temp sender location and you'll see many examples.

That will give you the temperature of the coolant coming right out of the engine as it heads to the rad. Remember that the Soob coolant system has it's thermostat located where the rad cooled coolant enters the engine. 

Last edited by David Stroud IM Roadster D

Some of you guys may be able to give me some info concerning something this thread made me think of. Years ago I bought a type 1 engine built for road racing and it had an Accusump thing hooked to it. It was a tube like thing that as it was explained to me pushed additional oil into the system when and if the engine saw a low to zero oil pressure reading. This wasn't a traditional dry sump setup. Has anyone have any knowledge or experience to what this was exactly?  I have enjoyed reading this thread, thanks to all for the educational and entertaining posts.

I do, and I run one in addition to the dry-sump. They serve two functions:

1) as a safety to supply oil in the event that the oil pressure supplied to the galleys drops below a certain point (5 psi, generally)

2) as a prelube device-- pressurized oil can be supplied to the bearings before start-up

I put mine in pre- dry-sump, but am only using it for pre-lube now, as there's really no chance of exposing the oil pick-up to air or foam any more.

The principle is exactly like that of a diaphram pressure vessel for a well pump. The Accusump is a vessel with an oil chamber and an air chamber. There is a piston with a seal dividing the two sides. When oil pressure exceeds the pressure on the air side, the vessel begins to fill with oil. As the vessel fills, it pushes the piston into the air side, thereby increasing the air pressure. When the two pressures find equilibrium, oil stops flowing. If the oil pressure in a galley drops below this pressure, oil starts to flow back to the engine. This can all be controlled even more precisely with a  solenoid valve arrangement and pressure switch. It's really the cat's meow.

I can't for the life of me figure out why more guys don't run them.

Last edited by Stan Galat

Thanks Stan ! You gave a well worded easy to understand answer. You are right I would think anyone with a high dollar engine would have one of these things but I have only seen one of them in use. The dry sumps are a must for hard road course driving. I had a couple track experiences with loss of oil pressure during long hard turns and having valve covers flooded with oil and also oil coming from unfamiliar places on the engine. Things I wasn't prepared for or understood well. I can see how a dry sumped engine is the way to go. The new vette's have dry sumped engines. I cant wait to see more of those on the streets and in the used market 5 or 6 years from now(maybe 10-15 for my budget).

Stan Galat posted:
Gordon Nichols posted:

IIRC, George Brown had one on his engine, too.

An Accusump? Yes, he did. That's where I got the idea. I'm pretty sure it was the only thing GB and Jake Raby ever agreed on. I figured it had to be worthwhile if neither felt the need to sling mud on the other one for it.

Stan--I didn't know you knew about George B.  Those emails were the best entertainment since  Vince was around here.  Glad you brought GB up.  Goes back what---10 years?

Last edited by Jack Crosby
barncobob posted:

i believe that if the engine is running and it shows full then its full..U might be trying to outhink the system..

Bob, Danny Pip said this a couple of posts earlier....

"  I don't know about the CB pump, but I do know that the Autocraft and Bugpack pumps have suction gears that are about 2x the length of the pressure side. Just like the 911 pump.....so any oil that may be in the crankcase is gone in a second or two of startup. "

This implies to me that there should be very little to no oil in the crankcase if the dry sump system is working properly. I'm just curious to know what's going on with my system. 

David,

I know that your have a dry sump system-- converted from a wet-sump system, and I'm 99.9% sure that the conversion was done by Ron L. after he had the engine built, installed, and running. That's why there's a dipstick on the engine-- because the dipstick tube was already there, and putting a dipstick in it is a decent way to keep from puking oil out the hole. Here's what I did with mine:

Blank-off

I think I finally understand the confusion. I believe you want to know why there's a level in the sump, as it can't bleed backwards that quickly (it's not overnight, it's "right now").

I've got one big question-- does your oil pump look like this?

CB Dry Sump

^^^ A CB dry-sump pump is only about 1-1/2" thick. ^^^

Or does it look more like this:

AutoCraft Dry Sump

^^^ An AutoCraft or Buck-Pack pump ^^^ sticks much further away from the case-- like about 3- 4" out to the face of the pump.

The pumps we are talking about are "2-stage" pumps-- they are 2 separate pumps in the same housing*. With both of the pumps above, there is a "scavenge" pump, and a "pressure" pump. The scavenge pump sucks the oil out of the engine and puts it into the reservoir, the pressure pump sucks it out of the reservoir and puts it back in the engine bearings. The oil can be filtered and cooled in either system, but almost everybody (except me) does it in the scavenge circuit.

The scavenge pump will always be bigger than the pressure pump, because the whole goal is to keep the sump dry ("dry sump", get it?).

As you can see from the thickness of the pumps, the impellers on the AutoCraft pump are a lot bigger than those on the CB pump. A LOT bigger.

Why? Well... packaging. The big drawback to a nice, big dry-sump pump is two things

  1. The crank pulley gets in the way.  
  2. The header collector almost always gets in the way (unless you have a Spyder).

My crank pulley is small enough to clear, but that means it's way smaller than a power pulley even-- small enough that in order for the fan to spin at the right speed, I need a much smaller alternator pulley. That's why I've got a serpentine set-up. Mine was one of the first ones, before everybody was making them-- it was just a guy in his machine shop doing them after work. He (and only he) offered a dry-sump set-up that replicated the stock fan ratio using smaller pulleys that would clear the pump. When everybody in China started copying the systems, he moved on the other things, and the dry-sump pulley set-up became unobtainium.

The other thing is the header, and I had to wait 6 months for Tiger at A1 to build me a custom sidewinder (2 actually, one was 1-3/4" when I had the 2332) that would clear the pump. It was less than awesome trying to do it two time-zones away.

Anyhow-- that's why CB does it the way they do: to allow the use of a 6" power pulley, since the pump doesn't stick out super-far, and the cover plate can sneak behind a 6" pulley, and to allow you to run any exhaust you want. It's slick, except that it may not pump fast enough to keep the crankcase empty of oil.

There's the trade-off. It sounds like yours isn't doing everything it could be doing, and I'd suspect it's because you have a CB pump.

OTOH, it isn't hurting anything either. You aren't carrying any more oil in the crankcase than you would be with a wet-sump, and you are pumping out of the tank. It'll probably run just fine with that, but I'd definitely want an oil pressure gauge in the pressure side of the system to see what kind of oil pressure the pump is producing. I'd guess it's less than you'd think, because the pressure pump on the CB dry-sump pump is pretty small as well. It's hard to fit two nice sized pumps under a pulley. 

*FWIW, AutoCraft (and Moroso, and a lot of other people) make multi-stage pumps with many scavenge circuits pulling from a lot of different places (valve-covers, etc.), all dumping back in the reservoir. They're really, really funky looking and are typically belt-driven.

The deeper you go into this stuff, the cooler it gets. Good luck. If you decide to go to a bigger pump, get out your wallet-- it's goes pretty sideways, pretty fast.

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Images (3)
  • CB Dry Sump
  • AutoCraft Dry Sump
  • Blank-off
Last edited by Stan Galat
Jack Crosby posted:
Stan Galat posted:
Gordon Nichols posted:

IIRC, George Brown had one on his engine, too.

An Accusump? Yes, he did. That's where I got the idea. I'm pretty sure it was the only thing GB and Jake Raby ever agreed on. I figured it had to be worthwhile if neither felt the need to sling mud on the other one for it.

Stan--I didn't know you knew about George B.  Those emails were the best entertainment since  Vince was around here.  Glad you brought GB up.  Goes back what---10 years?

Jack, I've been here since '00, and GB and Jake were going at it hot and heavy about 2003 or 2004.

Crazy times, indeed.

Stan Galat posted:

 

 

 

The header collector almost always gets in the way (unless you have a Spyder).

 

Not really, we have other issues. I don't think there's enough room in a Beck or TR with the torsion tube for Autocraft or Bugpack pump. In my Vintage, I need to disconnect the tailshaft trans mount and push it down a few inches so I can clear the clutch from the input shaft and bellhousing.

But you are correct, the exhaust doesn't go anywhere near the crank pulley. I have a JayCee dry sump pulley.

I wonder what is going on with David's system as well. If I check my dipstick with the engine running it has little to nothing on it. 

Stan Galat posted:

David,

I know that your have a dry sump system-- converted from a wet-sump system, and I'm 99.9% sure that the conversion was done by Ron L. after he had the engine built, installed, and running. That's why there's a dipstick on the engine-- because the dipstick tube was already there, and putting a dipstick in it is a decent way to keep from puking oil out the hole. Here's what I did with mine:

Blank-off

I think I finally understand the confusion. I believe you want to know why there's a level in the sump, as it can't bleed backwards that quickly (it's not overnight, it's "right now").

I've got one big question-- does your oil pump look like this?

CB Dry Sump

^^^ A CB dry-sump pump is only about 1-1/2" thick. ^^^

Or does it look more like this:

AutoCraft Dry Sump

^^^ An AutoCraft or Buck-Pack pump ^^^ sticks much further away from the case-- like about 3- 4" out to the face of the pump.

The pumps we are talking about are "2-stage" pumps-- they are 2 separate pumps in the same housing*. With both of the pumps above, there is a "scavenge" pump, and a "pressure" pump. The scavenge pump sucks the oil out of the engine and puts it into the reservoir, the pressure pump sucks it out of the reservoir and puts it back in the engine bearings. The oil can be filtered and cooled in either system, but almost everybody (except me) does it in the scavenge circuit.

The scavenge pump will always be bigger than the pressure pump, because the whole goal is to keep the sump dry ("dry sump", get it?).

As you can see from the thickness of the pumps, the impellers on the AutoCraft pump are a lot bigger than those on the CB pump. A LOT bigger.

Why? Well... packaging. The big drawback to a nice, big dry-sump pump is two things

*FWIW, AutoCraft (and Moroso, and a lot of other people) make multi-stage pumps with many scavenge circuits pulling from a lot of different places (valve-covers, etc.), all dumping back in the reservoir. They're really, really funky looking and are typically belt-driven.

The deeper you go into this stuff, the cooler it gets. Good luck. If you decide to go to a bigger pump, get out your wallet-- it's goes pretty sideways, pretty fast.

Thanks for all that, Stan. My pump is more like the CB Perfromance example you showed above. Here's two pics. The second pic (from the rear) has a very dirty finned surface and two rows of lettering and only part of the bottom row is legible....last three digits might be HES. 

Attachments

Images (2)
  • Oil pump bottom view
  • Oil pump rear view
IaM-Ray posted:

Al if the oil pressure that it gives is sufficient for the engine he should be ok I would think if not... are you suggesting he changes it anyway?

Not at all Ray. If it's working fine then there's no need to mess with it. My comment was about the company in general- how today they're at the forefront and providing great parts, whereas 30-40-50 years ago it seemed everything was low budget and there wasn't nearly as much concern for quality control. The CB Performance of today is a different company.

David Stroud IM Roadster D posted:

Thanks for all that, Stan. My pump is more like the CB Perfromance example you showed above. Here's two pics. The second pic (from the rear) has a very dirty finned surface and two rows of lettering and only part of the bottom row is legible....last three digits might be HES. 

 That's an older CB pump, and it explains why you have oil in the crankcase. As long as it doesn't start puking out the crank-seal, and as long as you have a good supply of oil in the tank-- it might not be ideal, but I don't see what it will hurt.

At least it explains why you're seeing what you are seeing. The scavenge pump isn't keeping up.

Jimmy V. posted:

I have a set of authentic 15 X 8 and 15 X7  Fuchs wheels for sale for $800.00 on the Classified page if any of you racer types are interested. The wheels are in super condition with the original anodized finish.

If anybody is interested, Jimmy's wheels are very nice. I remember admiring them at Carlisle last year. I don't know what he's doing, trolling them over here (actually, that's not true; I know exactly what he's up to!) but they are in very nice shape...            (ok, Jimmy, you can send me that 6 pack now!)

Stan Galat posted:
David Stroud IM Roadster D posted:

Thanks for all that, Stan. My pump is more like the CB Perfromance example you showed above. Here's two pics. The second pic (from the rear) has a very dirty finned surface and two rows of lettering and only part of the bottom row is legible....last three digits might be HES. 

 That's an older CB pump, and it explains why you have oil in the crankcase. As long as it doesn't start puking out the crank-seal, and as long as you have a good supply of oil in the tank-- it might not be ideal, but I don't see what it will hurt.

At least it explains why you're seeing what you are seeing. The scavenge pump isn't keeping up.

Which begs the question: what exactly is the oil pressure at different rpms warm and cold? And, it is entirely possible David just has way too much gosh darn oil in his engine/sump/tank/system. Too much oil is bad, very bad. Almost as bad as not enough, maybe. I'd be willing to bet it's overfilled some, and that is part of the problem.

Running a three(?) quart Accusump accumulator on the Spyder and I think it's sweet. Fun to pull the switch before startup and watch the oil pressure light go out. With the "thinline" deep sump I can also run with about 5 quarts total, showing a quart down on the dipstick and still have a quart or two in the accumulator, so oil splosh in the crank case should be no issue.

Tucks in nice too. Subtle:

IMG_5115

Easy to set up, no new pulleys needed; just T it into the return line from the remote filter or the remote oil cooler if equipped. If they work right (and I have heard of cases where they don't), a 2 or 3-quart accumulator should be all anyone with a strong VW engine needs to keep the bearings wet. You could even omit the deep sump and drive happy anywhere except maybe a banked oval race track. 

The dry sump is of course the ne plus ultra. You get the oil capacity, guaranteed no uncovered pickup tube ever, and a couple HP extra (maybe) at 7000 RPM from the zero windage.

Having both dry sump and accumulator is the sort of thing only a mountain gorilla would consider. My god.

 

Attachments

Images (1)
  • IMG_5115
Last edited by edsnova
DannyP posted:
Stan Galat posted:
David Stroud IM Roadster D posted:

Thanks for all that, Stan. My pump is more like the CB Perfromance example you showed above. Here's two pics. The second pic (from the rear) has a very dirty finned surface and two rows of lettering and only part of the bottom row is legible....last three digits might be HES. 

 That's an older CB pump, and it explains why you have oil in the crankcase. As long as it doesn't start puking out the crank-seal, and as long as you have a good supply of oil in the tank-- it might not be ideal, but I don't see what it will hurt.

At least it explains why you're seeing what you are seeing. The scavenge pump isn't keeping up.

Which begs the question: what exactly is the oil pressure at different rpms warm and cold? And, it is entirely possible David just has way too much gosh darn oil in his engine/sump/tank/system. Too much oil is bad, very bad. Almost as bad as not enough, maybe. I'd be willing to bet it's overfilled some, and that is part of the problem.

You know more about this stuff than I do, Danny but I have put more than 12,000 km on the car since I bought it and it seems to have come to no harm yet. I get the car warmed up totally and then check the oil in the reservoir with the engine running. I keep it topped up to the fill mark on the reservoir's dipstick. Oil on the engine dipstick never seems to go over the full mark. What more can I do ? Do you suggest I install a new CB pump system ? I don't know for sure but the existing Claude's Buggys pump may have about 52,000 km on it. Would your last sentence above suggest that the reservoir is filled too high...like the dipstick is marked full at too high a point ? 

Because this is a relatively new car to me with this system, I have no history / pattern to compare current conditions to. 

Last edited by David Stroud IM Roadster D

@edsnova : You forgot foam-free oil feeding your engine as a dry sump advantage.

I don't have that fancy accusump, but it is amazing how quick the oil light goes out, about 2 cranks and usually before it starts.

I think you're OK too David, I'm just curious what the oil pressure is and if there is a quart or so too much in the system. I hope you get your pulley issue sorted.

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