David,

I know that your have a dry sump system-- converted from a wet-sump system, and I'm 99.9% sure that the conversion was done by Ron L. after he had the engine built, installed, and running. That's why there's a dipstick on the engine-- because the dipstick tube was already there, and putting a dipstick in it is a decent way to keep from puking oil out the hole. Here's what I did with mine:

Blank-off

I think I finally understand the confusion. I believe you want to know why there's a level in the sump, as it can't bleed backwards that quickly (it's not overnight, it's "right now").

I've got one big question-- does your oil pump look like this?

CB Dry Sump

^^^ A CB dry-sump pump is only about 1-1/2" thick. ^^^

Or does it look more like this:

AutoCraft Dry Sump

^^^ An AutoCraft or Buck-Pack pump ^^^ sticks much further away from the case-- like about 3- 4" out to the face of the pump.

The pumps we are talking about are "2-stage" pumps-- they are 2 separate pumps in the same housing*. With both of the pumps above, there is a "scavenge" pump, and a "pressure" pump. The scavenge pump sucks the oil out of the engine and puts it into the reservoir, the pressure pump sucks it out of the reservoir and puts it back in the engine bearings. The oil can be filtered and cooled in either system, but almost everybody (except me) does it in the scavenge circuit.

The scavenge pump will always be bigger than the pressure pump, because the whole goal is to keep the sump dry ("dry sump", get it?).

As you can see from the thickness of the pumps, the impellers on the AutoCraft pump are a lot bigger than those on the CB pump. A LOT bigger.

Why? Well... packaging. The big drawback to a nice, big dry-sump pump is two things

  1. The crank pulley gets in the way.  
  2. The header collector almost always gets in the way (unless you have a Spyder).

My crank pulley is small enough to clear, but that means it's way smaller than a power pulley even-- small enough that in order for the fan to spin at the right speed, I need a much smaller alternator pulley. That's why I've got a serpentine set-up. Mine was one of the first ones, before everybody was making them-- it was just a guy in his machine shop doing them after work. He (and only he) offered a dry-sump set-up that replicated the stock fan ratio using smaller pulleys that would clear the pump. When everybody in China started copying the systems, he moved on the other things, and the dry-sump pulley set-up became unobtainium.

The other thing is the header, and I had to wait 6 months for Tiger at A1 to build me a custom sidewinder (2 actually, one was 1-3/4" when I had the 2332) that would clear the pump. It was less than awesome trying to do it two time-zones away.

Anyhow-- that's why CB does it the way they do: to allow the use of a 6" power pulley, since the pump doesn't stick out super-far, and the cover plate can sneak behind a 6" pulley, and to allow you to run any exhaust you want. It's slick, except that it may not pump fast enough to keep the crankcase empty of oil.

There's the trade-off. It sounds like yours isn't doing everything it could be doing, and I'd suspect it's because you have a CB pump.

OTOH, it isn't hurting anything either. You aren't carrying any more oil in the crankcase than you would be with a wet-sump, and you are pumping out of the tank. It'll probably run just fine with that, but I'd definitely want an oil pressure gauge in the pressure side of the system to see what kind of oil pressure the pump is producing. I'd guess it's less than you'd think, because the pressure pump on the CB dry-sump pump is pretty small as well. It's hard to fit two nice sized pumps under a pulley. 

*FWIW, AutoCraft (and Moroso, and a lot of other people) make multi-stage pumps with many scavenge circuits pulling from a lot of different places (valve-covers, etc.), all dumping back in the reservoir. They're really, really funky looking and are typically belt-driven.

The deeper you go into this stuff, the cooler it gets. Good luck. If you decide to go to a bigger pump, get out your wallet-- it's goes pretty sideways, pretty fast.

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Last edited by Stan Galat
Jack Crosby posted:
Stan Galat posted:
Gordon Nichols posted:

IIRC, George Brown had one on his engine, too.

An Accusump? Yes, he did. That's where I got the idea. I'm pretty sure it was the only thing GB and Jake Raby ever agreed on. I figured it had to be worthwhile if neither felt the need to sling mud on the other one for it.

Stan--I didn't know you knew about George B.  Those emails were the best entertainment since  Vince was around here.  Glad you brought GB up.  Goes back what---10 years?

Jack, I've been here since '00, and GB and Jake were going at it hot and heavy about 2003 or 2004.

Crazy times, indeed.

Yeah, I came on board in 2002-ish and when the Brown/Raby wars hit it was like "Whoa!" and then it became great entertainment for a while.  I'd start reading the posts and smoke would start coming from my laptop.   

Stan Galat posted:

 

 

 

The header collector almost always gets in the way (unless you have a Spyder).

 

Not really, we have other issues. I don't think there's enough room in a Beck or TR with the torsion tube for Autocraft or Bugpack pump. In my Vintage, I need to disconnect the tailshaft trans mount and push it down a few inches so I can clear the clutch from the input shaft and bellhousing.

But you are correct, the exhaust doesn't go anywhere near the crank pulley. I have a JayCee dry sump pulley.

I wonder what is going on with David's system as well. If I check my dipstick with the engine running it has little to nothing on it. 

Stan Galat posted:

David,

I know that your have a dry sump system-- converted from a wet-sump system, and I'm 99.9% sure that the conversion was done by Ron L. after he had the engine built, installed, and running. That's why there's a dipstick on the engine-- because the dipstick tube was already there, and putting a dipstick in it is a decent way to keep from puking oil out the hole. Here's what I did with mine:

Blank-off

I think I finally understand the confusion. I believe you want to know why there's a level in the sump, as it can't bleed backwards that quickly (it's not overnight, it's "right now").

I've got one big question-- does your oil pump look like this?

CB Dry Sump

^^^ A CB dry-sump pump is only about 1-1/2" thick. ^^^

Or does it look more like this:

AutoCraft Dry Sump

^^^ An AutoCraft or Buck-Pack pump ^^^ sticks much further away from the case-- like about 3- 4" out to the face of the pump.

The pumps we are talking about are "2-stage" pumps-- they are 2 separate pumps in the same housing*. With both of the pumps above, there is a "scavenge" pump, and a "pressure" pump. The scavenge pump sucks the oil out of the engine and puts it into the reservoir, the pressure pump sucks it out of the reservoir and puts it back in the engine bearings. The oil can be filtered and cooled in either system, but almost everybody (except me) does it in the scavenge circuit.

The scavenge pump will always be bigger than the pressure pump, because the whole goal is to keep the sump dry ("dry sump", get it?).

As you can see from the thickness of the pumps, the impellers on the AutoCraft pump are a lot bigger than those on the CB pump. A LOT bigger.

Why? Well... packaging. The big drawback to a nice, big dry-sump pump is two things

*FWIW, AutoCraft (and Moroso, and a lot of other people) make multi-stage pumps with many scavenge circuits pulling from a lot of different places (valve-covers, etc.), all dumping back in the reservoir. They're really, really funky looking and are typically belt-driven.

The deeper you go into this stuff, the cooler it gets. Good luck. If you decide to go to a bigger pump, get out your wallet-- it's goes pretty sideways, pretty fast.

Thanks for all that, Stan. My pump is more like the CB Perfromance example you showed above. Here's two pics. The second pic (from the rear) has a very dirty finned surface and two rows of lettering and only part of the bottom row is legible....last three digits might be HES. 

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Stan gave a great explanation I think for how your system works David, it makes the reason you have a semi wet sump clearer to me now, anyways. 

 

@David Stroud IM Roadster D wrote- "...The second pic (from the rear) has a very dirty finned surface and two rows of lettering and only part of the bottom row is legible....last three digits might be HES."

That is is an older pump, David. CB Performance used to be called Claude's Buggies, and that's what is on the pump cover. Back then not all their stuff was as good as it is now. Al

Al if the oil pressure that it gives is sufficient for the engine he should be ok I would think if not... are you suggesting he changes it anyway?

IaM-Ray posted:

Al if the oil pressure that it gives is sufficient for the engine he should be ok I would think if not... are you suggesting he changes it anyway?

Not at all Ray. If it's working fine then there's no need to mess with it. My comment was about the company in general- how today they're at the forefront and providing great parts, whereas 30-40-50 years ago it seemed everything was low budget and there wasn't nearly as much concern for quality control. The CB Performance of today is a different company.

David Stroud IM Roadster D posted:

Thanks for all that, Stan. My pump is more like the CB Perfromance example you showed above. Here's two pics. The second pic (from the rear) has a very dirty finned surface and two rows of lettering and only part of the bottom row is legible....last three digits might be HES. 

 That's an older CB pump, and it explains why you have oil in the crankcase. As long as it doesn't start puking out the crank-seal, and as long as you have a good supply of oil in the tank-- it might not be ideal, but I don't see what it will hurt.

At least it explains why you're seeing what you are seeing. The scavenge pump isn't keeping up.

I have a set of authentic 15 X 8 and 15 X7  Fuchs wheels for sale for $800.00 on the Classified page if any of you racer types are interested. The wheels are in super condition with the original anodized finish.

Jimmy V. posted:

I have a set of authentic 15 X 8 and 15 X7  Fuchs wheels for sale for $800.00 on the Classified page if any of you racer types are interested. The wheels are in super condition with the original anodized finish.

If anybody is interested, Jimmy's wheels are very nice. I remember admiring them at Carlisle last year. I don't know what he's doing, trolling them over here (actually, that's not true; I know exactly what he's up to!) but they are in very nice shape...            (ok, Jimmy, you can send me that 6 pack now!)

Stan Galat posted:
David Stroud IM Roadster D posted:

Thanks for all that, Stan. My pump is more like the CB Perfromance example you showed above. Here's two pics. The second pic (from the rear) has a very dirty finned surface and two rows of lettering and only part of the bottom row is legible....last three digits might be HES. 

 That's an older CB pump, and it explains why you have oil in the crankcase. As long as it doesn't start puking out the crank-seal, and as long as you have a good supply of oil in the tank-- it might not be ideal, but I don't see what it will hurt.

At least it explains why you're seeing what you are seeing. The scavenge pump isn't keeping up.

Which begs the question: what exactly is the oil pressure at different rpms warm and cold? And, it is entirely possible David just has way too much gosh darn oil in his engine/sump/tank/system. Too much oil is bad, very bad. Almost as bad as not enough, maybe. I'd be willing to bet it's overfilled some, and that is part of the problem.

Running a three(?) quart Accusump accumulator on the Spyder and I think it's sweet. Fun to pull the switch before startup and watch the oil pressure light go out. With the "thinline" deep sump I can also run with about 5 quarts total, showing a quart down on the dipstick and still have a quart or two in the accumulator, so oil splosh in the crank case should be no issue.

Tucks in nice too. Subtle:

IMG_5115

Easy to set up, no new pulleys needed; just T it into the return line from the remote filter or the remote oil cooler if equipped. If they work right (and I have heard of cases where they don't), a 2 or 3-quart accumulator should be all anyone with a strong VW engine needs to keep the bearings wet. You could even omit the deep sump and drive happy anywhere except maybe a banked oval race track. 

The dry sump is of course the ne plus ultra. You get the oil capacity, guaranteed no uncovered pickup tube ever, and a couple HP extra (maybe) at 7000 RPM from the zero windage.

Having both dry sump and accumulator is the sort of thing only a mountain gorilla would consider. My god.

 

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Last edited by edsnova
DannyP posted:
Stan Galat posted:
David Stroud IM Roadster D posted:

Thanks for all that, Stan. My pump is more like the CB Perfromance example you showed above. Here's two pics. The second pic (from the rear) has a very dirty finned surface and two rows of lettering and only part of the bottom row is legible....last three digits might be HES. 

 That's an older CB pump, and it explains why you have oil in the crankcase. As long as it doesn't start puking out the crank-seal, and as long as you have a good supply of oil in the tank-- it might not be ideal, but I don't see what it will hurt.

At least it explains why you're seeing what you are seeing. The scavenge pump isn't keeping up.

Which begs the question: what exactly is the oil pressure at different rpms warm and cold? And, it is entirely possible David just has way too much gosh darn oil in his engine/sump/tank/system. Too much oil is bad, very bad. Almost as bad as not enough, maybe. I'd be willing to bet it's overfilled some, and that is part of the problem.

You know more about this stuff than I do, Danny but I have put more than 12,000 km on the car since I bought it and it seems to have come to no harm yet. I get the car warmed up totally and then check the oil in the reservoir with the engine running. I keep it topped up to the fill mark on the reservoir's dipstick. Oil on the engine dipstick never seems to go over the full mark. What more can I do ? Do you suggest I install a new CB pump system ? I don't know for sure but the existing Claude's Buggys pump may have about 52,000 km on it. Would your last sentence above suggest that the reservoir is filled too high...like the dipstick is marked full at too high a point ? 

Because this is a relatively new car to me with this system, I have no history / pattern to compare current conditions to. 

Last edited by David Stroud IM Roadster D

@edsnova : You forgot foam-free oil feeding your engine as a dry sump advantage.

I don't have that fancy accusump, but it is amazing how quick the oil light goes out, about 2 cranks and usually before it starts.

I think you're OK too David, I'm just curious what the oil pressure is and if there is a quart or so too much in the system. I hope you get your pulley issue sorted.

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