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guys, 

i was hoping I could tap into your expertise and maybe get some guidance.

Problem:

- last night after an oil change I noticed a little gas on the outside of one of my carbs.  I found a small, very very small leak on the top cover, gas inlet plug.  The plug for the gas inlet appeared to be leaking, pealing off/ being pushed out.

- after last years small carb gas leak, I check the carbs for  gas leaks before/ after every ride.  I'm scared of fire ;-)

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- this morning, i was going to remove the carb, to inspect for cracks, and see if the fix was as simple as a little JBWeld to seal it back up again, and I noticed the chrome velocity stacks insides were nearly black, the inside cover of the air filter was charred/ black sud, and the rubber edges of the air filter were charred and partially melted.

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question:

- I'm I right to assume this was caused by more than a back fire?  Maybe a small fire?

I experienced a big backfire 5 days back... car lost a little power but seemed to run ok.  first time in over a year it had backfired.  So I took it to my local engine guy... he is 70 now, but awesome, and one of the leading aircooled vw mechanics in Seattle.  

Car  returned 2 days ago from getting a tune up- carbs/valves, etc, by my local go-to-guy.  Mechanic mentioned my #3 was not running well, tracked it to a clogged jet... which he cleaned up before balancing the carbs and finishing his tune up. Pressure of all cilinders was good/about equal.

-  I'm assuming this happened after his tune up.  I would assume that if he saw this during his tune up he would have mentioned something.  Also, the rubber on the air filter melted the parts together and I had to pull them appart.  I will need to ask him... I don't like to assume.  But car has been running great, no backfires since I picked it up.... SO STRANGE!!

- could his have been a small fire?  What could have caused it?  Clogged jet?  

- what could make this particular plug fail....  once on each carb.

- should I consider changing the carbs?    Or just th top cover like I did last year to fix the same top cover failed gas inlet plug of the other carb.  ( as well as the air filter).  Seems strange that both carbs had the same plug fail.

-- other than this, the carbs / engine have been running great...  I drive the car daily, in traffic and over mountain passes.... and dip stick temperature only peaked to 208F during a 98F day after and 40 minutes in stop and go traffic ( I don't have an external cooler...).  Typically it runs between 188f and 198F ....  BUT the evidence of fire SCARES THE CRAP OUT OF ME.

Any guidance would be much appreciated,

many thanks 

Luis

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Last edited by Lfepardo
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Yeah, with those I'd be scared of fire too! The plugs are failing because as usual, although Empi seems to have reverse engineered these carbs properly, they've cheaped out dropped the ball when it comes down to the details. If you can get another carb top, great; just keep an eye on the plugs to see if one starts doing the same thing again. And I would be talking to my mechanic, as I'm guessing that big backfire before he looked at it was the source of the torched air filter. I could be wrong, but it looks suspicious. Al

Yup. Empi scores again.... 

PS- Do you know of an Empi dealer locally that you can inform them of this problem? And if they tell you "gee, never heard of this before", shake your head, 'cause with 2 carb tops doing the same thing you know you're being lied to.

If you are concerned about a possible fire, do yourself a favor and install an approved fire suppression device.  There are a number of members on here that have purchased approved systems, and a number that have installed non-approved ones.  To me, it's another form of insurance.  Would any of us buy insurance from an offshore company that was unregulated?  Pay extra for peace of mind.  Guys with approved fixed systems may chime in. 

I have been to LOTS of car fires in another life, and I feel strongly about approved, tested systems vs. an unknown product.  Pay once, cry once.

Thanks for the responses.

have it all appart now.  The #3 bowl is appears to be the source of the burn.  Both are pretty dark w/sud, the #3 even with a LED light on it is just black.  City  Qtip I cleaned a little to show the contrast

- can this be cleaned? And safe to drive afterwards?

- may just be time for new Webber carbs.  Cheap fix, if one compares it to a possible fire scenario.

- no local EMPI shops, but a Webber shop not far from the house.

- i have sent out a note to EMPI US, in California.  They were very helpful sourcing a new top and servicing the other carb last year.

- I do have an engine compartment safecraft extinguisher, as well as a hand held I carry in the cabin.

- also an agreed upon value policy with America Modern, which includes a 2 day per week "commuter clause"... in addition to the show/parade/and casual driving clauses.    I believe a member on this site put a similar policy to the test a year or two back, and he was happy how they treated them. ( the owner of the red car I attached earlier pictured in flames.)  I HOPE NEVER TO HAVE TO PUT THE POLICY TO THE TEST ;-)

...

looks like I will be driving the 2015 until I get this sorted.  Kind of a bummer because the weather in Seattle is spectacular!

im attaching some pictures forssual aids:

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Marty Grzynkowicz posted:

Just curious if the VW Dual carb setup is any more prone to fire over other engines with Webers?

 

I think the VW engine bay, being sealed off at the bottom, is what's more prone to fire.

Gas vapor, which is denser than air, settles to the bottom of a closed container. Most other engine bays are open at the bottom, so gas vapor vents away and can't accumulate.

It's for this reason that diesel is much preferred for inboard engines on boats. Standard startup procedure for gas-engined marine inboards is to ventilate the bilge thoroughly before starting and to check the bilge blower output for gas fumes.

Ever notice that most local building codes require garage floors to slant downward towards the outside edge and that, if the garage is attached to a dwelling, the floor must be a step or two below the floor of the dwelling? Again - this is to let gas vapors vent out of the garage and not into the house.

When gas burns, it's not the liquid gas that's actually burning, but the highly flammable layer of vapor just above the liquid.

Maybe our cars should have bilge blowers, too?

 

Luis,

the first picture was my VS with Webbers. I then bought a Beck (Rich Dreweck's car) with Dells. 

On your advise, I also installed the same Safecraft auto tube you have. 

Worth every penny to know it is back there over carbs. 

The Raby 2.7L in back of the Beck is an engine I would never want to have to replace. 

Cheers,

Tom L

Those "plugs" painted black look like that area was simply patched with JB Weld or chewing gum.  Shouldn't there be a threaded brass plug (or lead/aluminum plug)  securely fixed in those holes?  I'd pull the black out and check for threaded and get a brass plug. I can't see the black plugged area in your second set of pictures - is one of circled brass areas a black plug?

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Thanks Guys...  

So what should I do? Thoughts are welcomed!

1- fix the current carb? I JDWeld the plug leak, cleaned everything I could, including all the jets.  ( to pass the time).  I did notice the #3 idle jet was missing the rubber O ring... And gas appeared to have leaked from here as well. ( will need to talk to the mapechamic about this... how could he forget to not put it back last WED after he tuned the carbs and clean d the clog jet).  The JD Weld is a band aid until I hear back from empi about a replacement top.  The carb may benefit from a rebuild kit to make sure all the soft parts are ok after the BBQ.... for now everything is just on the bench.  

2- get a new Empi HPMX to replace my current BBQ edition? 238$ no tax, free shipping.  May need to buy a spare card considering the failure rate of components.

3- get two new Webber 40s. Local shop has them in stock and ready for pick-up.  329$ per carb + tax.

4- get different carbs.. like a Dells if I can find them?  

Side not...Apparently Empi now also makes a Dell knock offs. Anyone tried these?

... this is not my dream engine, but it goes strong for now.   I would love to get the car safely back on the road as soon as possible.

any thoughts/ recommendations? Many thanks!

Last edited by Lfepardo

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@WOLFGANG  All three circled areas in you picture match what I have - a brass plug in each of these areas,

In the center of these three brass pieces, there is a bored hole, which is typically filled with a plug/circular fitting... for some reason, on top f that fitting my HPMX had what looked like epoxy/gum like /jdweld.    This is where my small leak was coming from...

the EMPI service dept put this  over the plug as a belt and suspenders preventative measure last year, when they serviced the carbs and the other carb top cover was replaced....

 back ground--- as part of my guarantee service last year... I sent them both carbs, they replaced the top of one, and the other, which was not leaking, they just put that gum like substance over the non-leaking plug. Then sent me back both carbs at no charge.  It was actually GREAT customer support considering I did not buy the carbs, as they came installed on the new build car and I did not have any proof of purchase of the carbs.

this gum like epoxy paste  pealed right off when I pulled on it today... reveling the cleaner plug like in your picture, or Webber carbs.

hope this makes some sense... I have been sniffing gas fumes working over the carb all afternoon.  ;-)  ;-(

 

 

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I'm guessing the JB Weld (even if surface was perfectly clean when applied) doesn't bond during the heat/cooling cycles experienced and perhaps isn't all that impervious to gas.  Years ago my dad used Devcon 10610 Aluminium Putty (F) to repair an inboard boat manifold - it lasted years.  It can be machined and has a high aluminum content.  If a good machinist can't tap and plug with aluminum/brass plug, it might be worth a try. Maybe MarkT @MARKSBUG will read this and comment (he's machinist with VW/Speedster interest).

@WOLFGANG. Many thanks.

im really leaning forward just picking up a new carb ( a replacement HPMX), or just getting two new webbers.    The idea of driving with one carb which may have incurred any fire damage makes me a little unsettled.

i will take it in to the Webber shop Monday ( CarbsUnlimited).  They told me they wouldn't work on it... but maybe while there, a friendly mechanic may look at it and give me his/her opinion.

Fingers crossed.

many thanks Alan and Bill.  Can't wait for the stores to open tomorrow and to have a conversation with my mechanic. 

I did notice reading carb specs over coffee that the stock set up of the 40 HPMX and the 40Webber she is a bit different... ( jetting wise)

while the empi scare me a bit after this last BBQ, my mild 1915cc VS built car with the Hpmx has run great for over 40,000miles, with basic maintenance...  ( pulls strong from 1000-4800 rpm's... seldomly do I take it much higher...)

as a carb novice, would I try to match the jetting /set up of new webbers to match the Hpmx? Or just start from Webber stock set up, and see how it runs/tune/sincroniza?

i was lucky, and the current engine/carbs combo ran great right out of the box ( after initial tuning/sinchronization)... until the top cover gas leak in 2016 ... which was fixed by replacing the top cover,.,..  so having to replace/tune new carbs to the engine is new to me.  

Fortunately they local engine guy is good... most of the time.

cheers!

For anyone interested.

- Empi stepped up again, and offered to replace the leaky top, at no expense to me. I will get them fixed, and probably sell them/ with full disclosure and history of the two replaced top covers due to leaks. Their customer service, in California, has been VERY VERY good the two times I needed help with the carbs.

They fixed/ replaced parts at no cost, all with-in the week. Other than the leak, the HPMX w/ Jet Doctors ( from CB) have run great, and required very little tinkering with over the past +30,000 miles!   But very strange that the gas inlet plugs failed in both of the carbs. I feel I got lucky by catching both leaks before a fire.

- For piece of mind, I ordered two new Webber IDF 40s from CB Performance.  Pat and his team where awesome. He offered to re-jet the carbs to try to match the VS 1915 with the vintage speeds exhaust. Can't wait to put them on.

- I researched buying Dell's....  not easy to find.

Thanking you for your help.   Hopefully I will be back on the road this weekend.

happy motoring!

Last edited by Lfepardo

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