Anyone running one? Good/bad worth it?
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Just hooked mine up last week. Already it's better than the 009/Pertronix, and I've not yet begun to adjust the timing map.
See also my very long thread in the Spyder section. The Black Box talk in in the last couple pages. I will continue to report results.
I’m running a Magnaspark dizzy. How do you pick up the vacuum?
I don't, yet. Waiting on delivery of this.
Key to know: there is a difference between the vacuum advance takeoff on a carb—which if you're running IDFs is that long post with the screw in it facing outboard—and the manifold vacuum required for the Black Box's MAP [Manifold Absolute Pressure] sensor. Those are tiny screws on the bottom of the carb and there's no simple way to get them hooked to vacuum lines.
The port circled in red should work with the Magnaspark. T them together from both carbs and rock on. Those little screws inboard of the idle mixture screws need weird M5 threads. Those ports are completely below the throttle plates. That's what you need for MAP to work right.
The $50 CP Performance kit obviates the need to either
A. drill out those little screws and solder or epoxy some tubes to them; or
B. drill small holes in the manifolds and solder or epoxy tubes to them.
For me it was a close call. If I had an extra set of those little vacuum port screws I'd have gotten after it with the drill.
I’m running large Kadrons one big hole branching to two. I called CB today, no answer.
@edsnova get some 7/32" brass tubing and a 5mm die. Screw them in with a bit of RTV and you're done. If I was going to use carbs I'd do it that way. But honestly a TPS works just as well for load sensing advance adjustment. That is if the black box allows that.
Be ready to tweak your throttle linkage if using the CB vacuum kit.
Thanks Danny If I do it I will just drill and tap what is there. I can always plug it if necessary.
@DannyP posted:@edsnova get some 7/32" brass tubing and a 5mm die. Screw them in with a bit of RTV and you're done. If I was going to use carbs I'd do it that way. But honestly a TPS works just as well for load sensing advance adjustment. That is if the black box allows that.
Be ready to tweak your throttle linkage if using the CB vacuum kit.
It doesn't. It would be great if it did, but no.
I ran a Black Box on my twin-plug engine and am an enormous fan. The interface with the computer is archaic, but the digital advance works fabulously.
Regarding the MAP vacuum load sensor - it's neat, but certainly not required. I'd never let an inability to get vacuum stop me from using the box. As a matter of fact, you'll do a lot better just setting up the curve without any vacuum advance until you get the hang of it. Trying to map for load on your first time out is a bit like drinking from a firehose.
Even if you never use the vacuum, your spark will be 10x more accurate and infinitely more adjustable than with any Chinese distributor.
I agree. The load table for advance is just giving up a couple miles per gallon at best. And really, that's not what these cars are about for most of us. You'll do much better to just worry about rpm/advance curve.
@DannyP I thought you bought the same CB vacuum reference kit I ordered?
I did and it's installed. I get my ECU MAP readings off the kit, and the fuel pressure regulator is also attached. I'm not using the MAP readings in the ECU yet, I've got TPS for load on both fuel(called Alpha-N) and spark.
I'll add a secondary fuel curve later for MAP. Probably much later.
The CB throttle bodies have a larger connector that I'm using for idle air control(warmup).
@edsnova posted:I don't, yet. Waiting on delivery of this.
Key to know: there is a difference between the vacuum advance takeoff on a carb—which if you're running IDFs is that long post with the screw in it facing outboard—and the manifold vacuum required for the Black Box's MAP [Manifold Absolute Pressure] sensor. Those are tiny screws on the bottom of the carb and there's no simple way to get them hooked to vacuum lines.
The port circled in red should work with the Magnaspark. T them together from both carbs and rock on. Those little screws inboard of the idle mixture screws need weird M5 threads. Those ports are completely below the throttle plates. That's what you need for MAP to work right.
The $50 CP Performance kit obviates the need to either
A. drill out those little screws and solder or epoxy some tubes to them; or
B. drill small holes in the manifolds and solder or epoxy tubes to them.
For me it was a close call. If I had an extra set of those little vacuum port screws I'd have gotten after it with the drill.
The threads are 4 x 0.70mm. And the threads measure about 0.1540" O.D.(3.91mm), so a 5/32"(0.15625") O.D. tube would work great along with the correct die. Brass threads easily, and you can get brass tubing at any hobby shop, Hobby Lobby, model train shop(are there any?) or online. Thread dies are available as well, and no harm will come to your carbs LOL!
@DannyP posted:I did and it's installed. I get my ECU MAP readings off the kit, and the fuel pressure regulator is also attached. I'm not using the MAP readings in the ECU yet, I've got TPS for load on both fuel(called Alpha-N) and spark.
I'll add a secondary fuel curve later for MAP. Probably much later.
The CB throttle bodies have a larger connector that I'm using for idle air control(warmup).
@DannyP how is it running so far? You like it? Do you miss carb sound?
It's running well in cruise, midrange, and WOT. Idle is perfect. It's the warmup I need to work on for that hit the starter and walk/drive away ease.
How do you install the Black Box with CB Performance Magnaspark distributor?
I have centrifugal advance not vacuum. Is it plug and play? between the distributor and coil?
thanks
Paul
Go to the CB Performance website and then go to the Black Box item. There's an installation manual link that will tell you about wiring.
If you do this, you will lock out all mechanical advance in the distributor - that's the box's job. The box uses the pick-up in your distributor (points or module), then sends a signal to the box, which uses RPM (and vacuum, if connected) to advance the spark as needed. It sends a signal to the coil, which fires at the appropriate time, and sends the spark to the rotor, which gets distributed (hence the name "distributor") to the appropriate spark plug.
The upside is that it's fully adjustable and can use any locked out distributor. The downside is that it still uses the tiny distributor pickup and the 1920s tech distributor cap and rotor.
It's a nice bit of kit for those who don't want to go all the way to crank-fire and wasted spark.
Thank you Stan
Paul ISAAC
Paul ISAAC
Hey guys I cannot find the PDF install instructions for the black box. It was there days ago on the CB site but now I cannot find it. Help please.
Richard
Here you go.
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Files (1)
Gracias
https://123ignitionusa.com/
looks interesting, check out the Bluetooth programmable dizzy for Porsche and VW 4 cyl
https://123ignitionusa.com/por...-aspirated-w-spacer/
better URL looks very cool to be able to adjust the curve with an iPad
This 123ignition may be the way to go more stable than points or Petronics/ Magnaspark and adjustable from an iPad
Yeah, but it’s also a bit more expensive at $500 smackers.
You can also adjust it with your iPhone (but hopefully, NOT while you’re driving!)
When you add a black box and a Magnaspark dizzy you come close to 500 plus you stuck with a very primitive interface that you need a Windoz computer to use. The selling point for me, and yes it’s not cheap, is the iOS interface, wireless on the go. There is a great video on the software.
You be the guinea pig Richard, let us know how accurate the spark is.
Danny,
I’ve emailed these guys and will give them a call. The idea of being able to make adjustments on the road through a wireless app is worth a lot to me. their demo vid of the accuracy is impressive. My 6 month VM warranty is up in May, then I will start experimenting. Cheers.
Richard
I agree, you should give it a shot Richard. It actually does look like a pretty neat piece of equipment.
It looks interesting, people worry about reliability, my Magnaspark II module failed two weeks after I got my car. I was stranded on a blind curve in the Hollywood hills I had to wave off Lambos and Bentleys until the flatbed arrived, very scary.
I agree somewhat. I had Megajolt for years, since 2008. It used a laptop and a serial connection. Once my map was sorted I didn't need to ever touch it.
I'm a tinkerer, so I kept tweaking and adjusting the map over the years, adding in temperature compensation(more advance around idle cold) with a head temp sensor.
But honestly I didn't need to keep tweaking it, the map stayed 95% the same as a month after installation.
I do have bluetooth connectivity on my Speeduino ECU to both my laptop and my phone. It is VERY convenient to easily connect by either Tunerstudio(laptop) or MSdroid(phone). But EFI is WAY more complicated than just an ignition map. And it's definitely easier to adjust on a laptop rather than the phone, but again, that's EFI not ignition.
BTW while stopped on a blind curve on Mulholland and Coldwater many fine young ladies in very expensive cars stopped to ask the distinguished older gentleman with the baby blue Speedster if I needed help “ cute car” is what most said.😛
Richard
Hey guys can I pick up vacuum for a dizzy or box by teeing off the balance tube that runs between the carb manifolds? Thanks
When I was looking at dizzy options, someone (John at AC?? Ed, the distributor guy??) told me that a single port on dual downdraft carbs didn't produce enough vacuum to properly run a vacuum advance distributor. Running my 4 gauge manometer off the vacuum ports on my Dellortos would tend to corroborate that (they won't. The vacuum generated is so low it can't indicate anything but the most rudimentary sync)
Running off the T might, I don't know. IIRC, OEM SVDA carbs take vacuum off the insulator plate between the carb and the manifold, drawing vacuum from all 4 cylinders.
In the end, I bought a German 009 that Ed rebuilt for me instead.
"Hey guys can I pick up vacuum for a dizzy or box by teeing off the balance tube that runs between the carb manifolds?"
Sure. That would actually be just about perfect.
@Gordon Nichols posted:"Hey guys can I pick up vacuum for a dizzy or box by teeing off the balance tube that runs between the carb manifolds?"
Sure. That would actually be just about perfect.
Actually, just to clarify: yes for the black box, no for a distributor.
Vacuum advance for distributors is "port vacuum"-- otherwise, you'd have full advance at idle. The black box takes manifold vacuum.
Yup. Stan's right again. My bad.
Thanks Stan
@Stan Galat posted:Actually, just to clarify: yes for the black box, no for a distributor.
Vacuum advance for distributors is "port vacuum"-- otherwise, you'd have full advance at idle. The black box takes manifold vacuum.
Exactly. For distributors there are specific ports on the carb that sit just-so with respect to the throttle plate. Just above but not too far above the throttle plate. No advance(vacuum) at idle, or large throttle opening, but some at slight throttle: just off idle and cruising only.
Manifold vacuum can be used electronically to make a curve for ALL throttle positions.
Danny and Stan
I’m looking at a programmable dizzy from 123ignition after talking to them they recommend the version that also incorporates manifold vacuum. I was wondering where I could pick it up on my duel Kadron setup. I though the balance tube with a tee? Cheers.
No reason that won't work with the 123.
The balance tube is the perfect source for manifold vacuum, as it is fully UNDER the throttle plates and sees all 4 cylinders.
I wasn't aware that any dual carb setups had balance tubes. Mine sure didn't. Got pics of one?
Lane,
The carb itself in this case large Kadrons do no have a tube but the manifold below each carb has a tapped hole and in my case a rubber 3/8 inch hose runs between the two manifolds below the carbs. One can tap that hose to get MAP. I hope this explanation helps. The hose is there to balance the vacuum between each cylinder bank. You might try to add the feature to your setup it will improve drivability and also is a good place to get vacuum for electronic ignitions although some carbs have a vacuum feature, maybe yours do. There is a lot of info out there if you want to learn more. Cheers.
@Lane Anderson posted:I wasn't aware that any dual carb setups had balance tubes. Mine sure didn't. Got pics of one?
That's because you had Webers, which are individual runner carbs (one throat per cylinder). Kadrons are 1 bbl carbs, therefore cylinders 1 and 2 share a throat, as do cylinders 3 and 4. There needs to be a balance-tube between the sides for them to (sort of) work correctly.
Well ya larn sumthin' new ever day, doncha? 
Oh Webbers the carbs for people who like to tune carbs.
@R Thorpe posted:Oh Webbers the carbs for people who like to tune carbs.
Sure. Also people interested in getting the most out of what they have.
Don't get me wrong Webbers are fine carbs I had a set of tripple throat 46's on my Max Morritz config 911, found a NOS set in Modena, same ones used on Italian cars. Had them rebuilt. I had very little trouble with them as long as the gas was clean.
Webers: The carburetor for those who didn't want a "Quadrajet". 
@Gordon Nichols posted:Webers: The carburetor for those who didn't want a "Quadrajet".
^ That. All day long.
There were maybe 2 mechanics in 10,000 who understood those carbs. I can tell you I never did.
I actually rebuilt a Quadrajet 
and got it to run pretty well, thanks to a lot of guidance from the late Lowell Roher down in South Carolina. They are a bear to dial in, but probably not more-so than a Weber or Dell once you understand any of those three. Mine found it's way back to a '67 Toronado that still shows up at cruise nights in Beaufort.
I still have the chicken bones Lowell gave me after he showed me how to toss and read them for guidance in bending those little tabs and wires.
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we called them Qudrajunks
In hindsight: The lowly Rochester 4 barrel was certainly a better street machine induction system than 98 percent of the Holleys as run in the 70s and 80s. The spreadbore design and the smaller primaries meant better velocity and atomization for sure.
Holley had better advertising and those dual fuel bowls looked more purposeful.
By my recollection, not one hotrodder in 30 back then knew thing one about tuning and jetting any of 'em. And that goes especially for the guys who thought they knew.
@edsnova posted:By my recollection, not one hotrodder in 30 back then knew thing one about tuning and jetting any of 'em. And that goes especially for the guys who thought they knew.
In my neck of the woods, it was closer to one in 250.
@R Thorpe posted:Oh Webbers the carbs for people who like to tune carbs.
@Stan Galat posted:Sure. Also people interested in getting the most out of what they have.
You don't need to like tuning, or attend to them much IF you know what you're doing. I haven't touched my Webers in years, they are THAT reliable.
And yes, Webers or Dellortos are for getting the most out of a carbureted car.
Richard, I'm sure the Solex/Kadrons you have are sufficient for your needs. But as has been said before, it's a big tent, and there is no ONE correct/best answer for all.