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I reviewed previous posts on driving lights but found nothing in the last 8-9 years so most of the lights mentioned are very hard to find which may be problematic for finding lenses and parts if one breaks. Anyone have some recommendations of bright center of the road/highway, dark streets in florida useful ones? I should be able to run wiring right to battery in the front and then to the included switched tucked under the dash; right? I would prefer the easiest installation so I do not mess up anything existing on the car. I put the H4 upgrades in but they are still lacking and stressing out my wife on date nights. I found some Hella 500s but they seem to be black on the back vs chrome. I saw some people mentioning relays and whatnot but I believe that may be for trying to tap into existing headlight switches/wiring? If I mount to bumper or bumper brackets (preferred style of light/bracket) and run positive to battery/negative to battery and then pull wiring through firewall to an under dash switch  in the kit then I should be good? Just want very bright ones center of road pattern. I live in Florida so pretty much anything goes here and everyone gives me 200' space like I am OJ Simpson when we are driving...which is nice to have the road to myself but rough on trying to see the road.

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Used to be a lot more options out there 10 years ago -- and all were most likely incandescent bulbs.  Now all seem to be LED and plastic!  The NOS classic real chrome ones are quite costly.

Here's a Hella set I found on ebay - just can't tell if they are driving or fog lights.  The lenses sure look like driving.  Driving are need for the that herd of deer 300' feet down the dark road where fog are for armadillos and gators on side of road. These have all the wiring including the relay.

Hella Optilux 1900 Chrome Driving Lamp Fog Lights 100W 6" Kit Round H71020801 | eBay

thumbnail 5 - Hella Optilux 1900 Chrome Driving Lamp Fog Lights 100W 6" Kit Round H71020801Image 51 - Hella Optilux 1900 Chrome Driving Lamp Fog Lights 100W 6" Kit Round H71020801

Lucas, Cibie, Hella and Bosch were names I remember from years ago.

EMPI has a chrome one too for $25 each - C13-9309

Image result for C13-9309 - EMPI - CHROME 12 VOLT OFF-ROAD LIGHT WITH H3/100 WATT BULB- 5 INCH

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Last edited by WOLFGANG

OK, before you get too deep into this, ask yourself this:

1.  "Do I want to brightly light up the road 1/2 mile ahead and have to switch off the lights whenever some approaches from  the other direction" (that would be Driving lights) or;

2.  "Do I want to brightly sweep the road ahead of me for 50 - 100 yards and keep the beam low so I can leave them on all the time?"  That would be Fog lights.

Driving lights have clear, un-wavy lenses that project a beam of light down the center of the road and light things up way out there (1/2 mile or so), but they WILL blind on-coming motorists so they need to be turned off on low beam.  I have mine wired with the high beam switch through a relay so they always come on with high beam.

Fog lights have clear or amber lenses with a lens pattern (it's called "fluting") in the glass that cuts off the light at about 3' up off the ground so as not to blind oncoming traffic.  Often, the lenses allow the light to sweep up on the right to let you read street signs.  They may be left on all the time in most states, but people often turn them off when on high beam.  They work particularly well when driving in rain.  Most drivers don't look farther ahead than 50 yards at night, especially in urban settings, so these are good for most drivers.  Amber is nice (it works great in oncoming snow) but not necessary, other than spectator looks.

Given all that, the Hella 500 is a good choice, either round or rectangular.  So is the Marshall 672/682 (driving/fog)

Marshall:   https://www.ebay.com/itm/370493547371

Hella:  https://www.lmperformance.com/...h3-fog-lamp-kit.html

Unfortunately, All I can find for new Hella lights have the black ABS plastic case but you might try looking on eBay for a vintage pair with chromed metal cases.

Lenses are problematic.  I have a pair of reproduction Marshall driving lights and I broke a lens.  Found a pair on eBay to fit the originals and they fit my repros perfectly (the guy had sold his Jaguar and these were his spares). Marshalls were seen on Jaguars, Rover Saloons and some Mercedes models so parts are easy-ish to find (but getting scarcer).  Hellas were mostly seen on German cars but good vintage ones are getting hard to find and $$$$.  A pair of lenses on eBay (either model) bring from $85 - $175 the pair but are very scarce.

BTW:  Marshalls came in two bulb versions:  A Tungston bulb (big, bulbous thing) that didn't put out much light.  The light can be converted to an H3 bulb, but it's not a trivial upgrade, involving modifying the light housing and focusing the bulb.  

My advice:  If you can find a new pair of either for under $125 and they are either H3 bulbs or LED around 4000 - 5000 hue (daylight) and they have clear ABS plastic lenses, buy them.  If you're looking for a pair of reproductions then plan on $299 and up but inexpensive ones sometimes turn up on Bay.  If you have your heart set on a pair of new old stock original Marshalls then plan on $800 - $1,000 the pair.

Gordon's lighting advice is all spot-on. The lights are actually Marchal(not Marshall), I think auto-correct go him there.

Dave, I like the looks of those replica Cibie lights, and the price is nice too. The two wires is PERFECT for replicas. Mount them anywhere, we don't need no ground through the mount like original!

I can’t remember if posted this here or in another forum but last summer my brother was going through some boxes in the attic of his garage and discovered two pairs of original Super Oscars still in boxes. He figured he bought them to put in his old land cruisers and never got around to it. They’re going for $400-$500 on eBay now. (And I’m still kicking myself for telling him that before I bought a pair off of him for my Spyder!)

1.  "Do I want to brightly light up the road 1/2 mile ahead and have to switch off the lights whenever someone approaches from  the other direction" (that would be Driving lights)..."

Yes.  Definitely.    The more light the better. 

You can always choose two phase driving lights, so that they are on with both low beam and high beam.  That's the best solution.

Last edited by Bob: IM S6

Gordon made an interesting point: "Most drivers don't look farther ahead than 50 yards at night, especially in urban settings, so these are good for most drivers."

i have a particularly weird situation with my night vision in that in partial light (dusk to completely black) I can barely detect the effect of my headlights. I've found that using my fog lights to illuminate the area between the front of my car and 50' or so out where my headlight beam starts tricks my brain into seeing much better. It also helps to avoid potholes and other road hazards that I completely miss.

It's  really strange. Once it's completely dark I'm fine, but in low light, it's pretty scary. So much so that when I used to do a lot of motorcycle traveling, I'd stop for dinner at dusk and wait until it was completely dark if I was going to continue riding at night.

All that's true.  A good pair of driving lights (Cibie Super Oscar 10" or 8" Lucas "Flame Throwers") will totally light up BOTH lanes at a distance of 1/2 - 3/4 mile or more.  That's a long way and a distance that few drivers, these days, would feel comfortable with, whether or not it's day light out.  Most modern drivers are happy looking ahead to the next car, let alone the two or three ahead of them.  Those guys would appreciate fog lights sweeping the road immediately ahead of them more than driving lights.  

And as Dave pointed out, avoid the "Spotlight" version because they are unfocused and seem to light up half the World.  Great in the desert at high speeds, very un-cool on the highway.  

So to IM Bob's point, the absolute BEST setup would be a 4-light configuration with two fogs and two driving lights, two aimed out (Hi-Beam) and two aimed in close (Lo-Beam) that get automatically switched with the dimmer.  I have the wiring for that on my Speedster, but felt that four Marshalls - or Marchals, if you're French    - would look a little crowded out front.  

@dlearl476 @Gordon Nichols thank you for all the info. Once again, I think maybe I can go out and buy something without checking with the pros and I realize I would have messed that all up. I need the fog light 50' out lighting. Essentially, I think I have this same scenario where low light, dusk I cant see anything even though I put in the H4 lenses. I can see a little when there are no cars on the road but when any cars are around me I am actually looking where their lights are shining and trying to gauge what I will be seeing soon. Just need the same light as my Hyndundai Kona gives me at night with standard lights. I see this gear guy has these fog light clear version and I could buy the upgraded 100w and relay and switch from him so I would have everything to install maybe them. http://greggearhead.com/store/..._Amber_or_Clear.html I am not sure if this has the separate ground wire. I am assuming that I am supposed to drill a hole in the top of my bumper and mount to the plastic bumper? Scary. I would prefer a plastic lense light to avoid breaking them. I am searching the internet for that right now.

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True confessions time: When I bought my 968 I set about finding some driving lights for it. Then I RTFM.  They have integrated fog and driving lights from the factory.

3604B66E-5C14-4D19-AE66-A47415808D8E

Boy was I embarrassed. And it was too late to edit/delete my post from the 968 forum.

They’re really nice. The fog lights have a separate switch that’s hot with the parking lights, so you can turn them on at dusk and be visible, without having to raise the frog eyes. The driving lights come on automatically with the high beams.

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Last edited by dlearl476

So to IM Bob's point, the absolute BEST setup would be a 4-light configuration with two fogs and two driving lights, two aimed out (Hi-Beam) and two aimed in close (Lo-Beam) that get automatically switched with the dimmer.  I have the wiring for that on my Speedster, but felt that four Marshalls - or Marchals, if you're French    - would look a little crowded out front.  

That’s why you buy one fog and one driving. Mount the fog on the driver’s side in front of you and the DL on the passenger side, further away from oncoming traffic.

Almost all good lights are available as a DL or a fog light in the same style. Wire with an Off-On-On switch or with an Off-On for the fog and put the DL in series with the high beam.

Last edited by dlearl476

Also, John, it’s important to make sure your lights are properly focused.

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I do a little less complicated version of this: pull up as close as you can to a garage door or a light colored wall. (Make sure you’re on level ground) Use a couple of pieces of tape to mark the hot spots on the low beam. Back up 20’-25’. Adjust the hot spots to the specs in the owner’s manual above.

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Last edited by dlearl476
@barncobob posted:

those were cool in the 60s some even had yellow lenses for uber cool..

Yellow light reflects less light off the water molecules of fog. That’s why they used it for fog lights BITD. Less glare = better visibility. Modern technology has developed clear bulbs that produce yellow light. That’s what expensive fog lights have.

You’ve probably noticed how old sealed beam lights appear yellow compared to modern H1-H4 halogen bulbs and LEDs. Same thing.  

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"...I put the H4 upgrades in but they are still lacking and stressing out my wife on date nights..."

"...I need the fog light 50' out lighting. Essentially, I think I have this same scenario where low light, dusk I cant see anything even though I put in the H4 lenses..."

"...I saw some people mentioning relays and whatnot but I believe that may be for trying to tap into existing headlight switches/wiring?..."



John, if all you need is basic headlights so that you can see the road at 'normal' speeds in 'normal' conditions, then there's no reason why some decent H4's shouldn't do that.

But there are a few fairly simple upgrades to do for that to happen in our cars. My VS came with abysmal halogen lighting and it WAS scary. But I've done the upgrades and switched to H4's and the lights are fine for whatever night driving I do. No driving lights. No fog lights. And my wife doesn't stress about it (trust me, she would if there were even the slightest reason to.)

If you don't do these upgrades, there's a good chance that adding extra lights won't help much, either.

First, relays. There are very good reasons why ALL modern cars use these. Most of those reasons have to do with cutting production costs, but they also make lights significantly brighter.

Second, aiming the lights correctly. The VW headlight buckets weren't the best design for that to begin with, but the cheapo reproductions in most of our cars are far worse. It took me a while to figure out that as much as I turned those adjustment screws, the buckets weren't actually moving at all. With our very low seating position, and the headlights closer to the ground than in modern cars, getting that angle adjusted right is critical. It can be done, but someone has to do it. That someone is usually the car owner.

Third, proper wiring runs to the lights (short runs of heavy-gauge wire), directly from the battery, controlled by relays that are also close to the battery.

The relays helped some, and the proper wiring helped some, too. Together, they made a huge difference - enough that I've got what I'd call 'normal' lighting now. Nothing outstanding, but no longer scary. My wife doesn't grab the dash handle at night, like she used to. Problem solved.

If you'd like to pursue any of this, let us know. You'll get more free advice about it than you would ever believe.

.

@dlearl476 thank you. I went over to the shop and turned on lights in dark shop. It seemed like just a dim bulb at bottom of frame was on and reflecting up or something. I thought maybe there was a loose wire and the actual halogen center bulb may not be working as it was very dim in the shop like almost marker light brightness. Anyways, I took out bottom screw and opened housing, checked plug and put back in and now it doesnt work at all. This is why I try not to work on anything electrical or mechanical on the car as it costs me $100 an hour to have someone fix it and three weeks to get an appt....lol. I guess I will be having the stereo electrical guy fix the headlights and install the new ones when they come in. It is probably safer this way.

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@Sacto Mitch thank you, i will relay this to the wiring guy since I have now disabled one of my headlights trying to adjust it lol. I will just buy the fog lights and pay him to install those and then i can have two sets adjusted and set up correctly. Mechanical stuff just is not my niche. Everytime I try to do something other than changing carpet or something I end up having to have a shop work on the car and be without it for a few more weeks.

You can mount extra lights to the fiberglass bumper you just need to add large stainless steel washers above and below the mounting point to spread out the vibration stress over a larger area on the fiberglass.  Many of the new lights also have rubber in the mounting bolts. The fog lights in my Avatar are from a 914.  I stripped the black paint off old ones I had from a '72 914.  The bezel around the glass is brass which give a gold look that matches the PORSCHE script.  The backs are just painted black but they could be powder coated any color you want.  They have increased in coast but parts are available - lenses are about $50 now.

There are these mounts that attach to the bumper brackets too.  But not sure they are as stable as through the fiberglass.

See the source image

Amazon.com: KNS Accessories KC3303C Chrome Universal Heavy Duty Fog Light Bracket, 1 Pack : Automotive

Last edited by WOLFGANG

@John Bungen Vintage Car LEDs has a new version of their LED headlight that no longer utilizes a heat sink so the bulb SHOULD fit in our cars without any modifications. Previous version had a large heat sink that necessitated the enlarging of the headlight bucket pocket on our cars. It may substantially increase the brightness of your lights with the least amount of work.

Light Bulbs Only

Light Bulbs w/ New Buckets

@Robert M posted:

@John Bungen Vintage Car LEDs has a new version of their LED headlight that no longer utilizes a heat sink so the bulb SHOULD fit in our cars without any modifications. Previous version had a large heat sink that necessitated the enlarging of the headlight bucket pocket on our cars. It may substantially increase the brightness of your lights with the least amount of work.

Light Bulbs Only

Light Bulbs w/ New Buckets

I hope they are useful in euro style buckets as if they are close to h4 in beam pattern that might be an option for us to using p45t 90/100 bulbs

And if you are thinking of an LED replacement bulb for the H3 bulb in a driving/fog light, you need 5,000 or so color (daylight) AND a Lumen count of AT LEAST 2000 lumens for the same amount of light as a 55 watt Halogen bulb (5K Lumens would be more like it, if you could find one).  There are a lot of “H3” LED bulbs out there for “daytime running lights” that are putting out only 400 lumens - pretty anaemic, for sure.

As a comparison, a lot of H4 headlight bulbs are putting out 8,000 - 12,000 lumens.

Years ago I had a 71 VW Beetle set up for amateur road  road rallying, I had this wild idea (it sorta worked)  I used a Flea Market fund a 48v aircraft landing light for the countryside. Battery supply ... stock VW 12v battery & a 18 wheeler 12v battery supplied enough voltage  but because the alternator amps were sub par, the light wasn't on much at one time.

Last edited by Alan Merklin

And if you are thinking of an LED replacement bulb for the H3 bulb in a driving/fog light, you need 5,000 or so color (daylight) AND a Lumen count of AT LEAST 2000 lumens for the same amount of light as a 55 watt Halogen bulb (5K Lumens would be more like it, if you could find one).  There are a lot of “H3” LED bulbs out there for “daytime running lights” that are putting out only 400 lumens - pretty anaemic, for sure.

As a comparison, a lot of H4 headlight bulbs are putting out 8,000 - 12,000 lumens.

Thanks Gordon, it is not always easy to compare apples with apples when it comes to LED lights vs H4

@John Bungen posted:

@Robert M so do you just buy the bulbs and put inside the hella h4 headlight or do you need to buy the light and bulb on these led ones?

Yes, just buy the bulbs and put them inside an H4 housing

@John Bungen posted:

@Robert M do these operate on original wiring or does the car need to be rewired as it is using some higher power or something?

No wiring upgrades needed. That's the promise of LED: more light, less power consumption.

I can see Lane and IM Bob with these - Maybe point the Fogs a little more straight ahead, but you get the idea - I'm sure that they NEVER went to low-beam, anyway.  Marchal Fogs and Cibie Driving lights.  There's no substitute for lot'sa Lumens!

Check the 911 behind him, too.  Eventually, you need a bigger generator!

356 Rally Car

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