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I'm definitely getting the limited slip. It'll be probably be a Peloquin not a unicorn.  It's less pricey to have it built that way than to go back and do it later.  They list it as $1595 but my transaxle will come in at about $5200 as I recall (I just broke into a sweat typing that ).  Peloquin started as a VW mechanic and he made a unit for air-cooled VWs decades ago. He moved on to making ones for liquid cooled VWs and this is the Type 1 transaxle version of his latest.

The Peloquin and Quaife use invex gearing or planetary gear-sets that folks call Torsen differentials.  There has long been debate on which is better, clutch style or Torsen style limited slip differentials. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. There are even some hybrid ones with clutches and invex gearing.

The passive clutch type (I think this is what the ZF is) will always keep the axles spinning together with a maximum difference in speed of whatever % they've been set to whether accelerating or decelerating. So if you break an axle you can get home. The downside is that they have clutches and they are wear items.

The Torsen type uses invex gears (planetary gear sets), and act as an open differential until there is a difference in torque at the wheels. They will react instantly to send power to the slipping side. Under braking they will reduce torque to a locking wheel under braking, and in theory that will assist threshold braking.  The gears don't wear any quicker than the rest of the tranny, and shot syncros will probably happen first thing to take the transaxle down. On the downside, if a wheel is in the air it doesn't work at all and if you break an axle you're walking.

For what I have in mind the Torsen type will work well, which is good because that's pretty much all there is out there. There aren't any passive clutch type LSDs available that I can find.  Here is a link to Peloquin's   Type 1 LSD  page and here's a link to an LSD encyclopedia for those with inquiring minds Everything you wanted t know about LSDs but were afraid to ask.  Have fun!

I suppose it's a matter of terminology. Old school guys would refer to that as a TBD, and the clutch-type differential as an LSD. You've clearly done your homework and know what you're getting-- and yes, the Torsen (TBD) are the only game in town unless you want to wait and wait for something used that may never come along.

I've read all the debates regarding which is better (clutch or TBD). I think the only reason to go with the older ZF part would be the ability to dial in the accel/decel lock-up, and I'm not sophisticated enough to deviate too far from what a TBD does automatically anyhow.

You'll love it.

Total aside: $5200 for a transaxle, and I understand completely how you got there (and think it's worth it). If that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about "the madness" nothing ever will. 

Stan Galat posted:

I'm pretty sure Al knows that there are no unicorns hanging out on the Rancho shop floor, and something as game-changing as a true Limited Slip Differential would have been trumpeted by any/everybody. Most everybody refers to the Quaife torque biasing part as an LSD, but it's different internally, and it works differently as well. Regardless, the Quaife TBD is by all accounts a very nice piece, and worth the money.

Bruce's build is using a Subaru transaxle, so he may be getting a true LSD. I have no idea what they have in them. Unless I'm badly mistaken, the only true LSD differentials (with friction plates, etc.) for VW transaxles are original German ZFs parts from back in the day.

I searched online for over 2 years for a used ZF, before one finally popped up on theSamba and I snatched it up. They go for about $1500 +/-. Most need rebuilt for more money yet.

It's a slippery slope.

You are right, Stan- I try to keep up with what's happening in the high performance VW world (the Samba, Cal Look Lounge, a couple of other forums occasionally and know a number of guys with faster VW's through the local club) as I was heavily involved as a younger man, so when somebody mentions 'limited slip' or 'lsd' (and are not reminiscing about their youth) it gets my attention. The ZF is a true plate type limited slip differential (I saw 1 apart Saturday night), and as Stan said, while similar in operation to the Quaife torque biasing diff (both provide power to the 2 drive wheels under acceleration), they are different under deceleration/braking- the ZF applies force to both wheels for more control/faster deceleration while the Quaife acts more like an open diff.

 ZF differentials (type 1 swingaxle, irs as well as the various bus transaxles) were available from the VW factory in other parts of the world but were never in any cars officially destined for the U.S. or Canadian markets, hence the difficulty finding 1 here today. And as for finding 1 in a used trans- I don't think I've ever heard of or read about anyone in either of our countries opening a trans and finding a ZF; they're just not here, and you have to look outside our borders. 

For sure Stan is right, a clutch pack LSD will have a lot of adjustability in both directions.  Anyone that was auto crossing, running track days a lot, and trying to go 10/10ths would probably prefer it as long as their ride didn't have ABS. 

They remind me of the slipper clutches we used on big single and twin cylinder 4 stroke racing bikes. I used to set them up back in my racing days (number of friction discs, spring rate, etc).  It wasn't super difficult mechanically, but it was fussy work.  When you got it right it was a beautiful thing.  It kept the back of the bike from jumping around on downshifts, especially if you had just ham-fisted the rev matching. (Of course I never did that, so we're talking' theory here... mmmhmm)

I'm having a ball getting into the details and research.  I'm glad some of you are enjoying it, too.  It's keeping my mind busy so I don't become a pain in the ass for Greg.  

Subaru has a number of manufacturers that specialize in LSD's for Subis.  This is one of the many areas I don't know much about.  I assume that Rancho offers a VW transaxle with different interior options, such as Subi gearing, but the basic output, axles, etc. remain VW, since Rancho doesn't mention the Subi options for LSD's.  Below is a link that explains Subi LSD types, makers, options, etc. 

 

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Well, time for an update.  Things have been progressing apace. The transaxle is done and Greg picked it up. The only change from previous spec was a change to bus axle CVs instead of 930 size. The light weight of the car will leave these plenty under-stressed and it will buy little room, too.

I've been collecting things to send to Greg when the time comes.  Things like LED lighting (headlights, signals, 3rd brake light strip to hide in the engine grill) interior bits like a vintage speed shifter I picked up at a swap meet, a hidden audio bluetooth unit and some speakers, etc. etc.

I'll be making a visit to Hawaiian Gardens April 15th. I had the chance to add a stop to a trip to Salt Lake that weekend, so I'll get to meet Greg and the gang at Vintage Motorcars. Greg says they are currently prepping the body, though that seems to mean prepping the mold I think. There might be something of my car to see besides the transaxle, but that's OK, I mostly want to meet Greg and talk about things.  I've got some ideas for a few neat little touches, but I want to make sure I'm being reasonable. I'm also waffling on wide 5 vs 5X130 wheels. I think seeing things unperson will help finalize that item on the check list

I've been thinking a lot about the color, interior and all the little things that make things go from cool car to WOW!  I'll post about that soon.  I studied art and design as a young man and it's been interesting listening to discussions on the net about colors, confusion about this paint code or that, and some general misunderstandings about how color really works on your computer screen versus on an actual object. I actually wrote an article about color theory and such to help clarify my thinking on it. If there's any interest in that sort of thing I could clean it up and post it in the articles/resources section. 

Over and out for now, but more soon!

-Michael

JMM posted:

... I'm also waffling on wide 5 vs 5X130 wheels...

-Michael

Greg is finishing up my Speedster. He's setting it up so I can run my various OEM Porsche 5x130 wheel sets. I have two sets of original 6x15 Fuchs (Flats and Deeps with hearts) and access to a set of Porsche OEM steelies. If I didn't have factory Porsche wheel sets laying around, I would have gone with wide fives. Heck, I may eventually convert to wide fives before the end of summer - which means I am still undecided. I blame an episode on Leno's Garage that featured Chuck Olenyk's silver 356 Roadster converted Speedster. I wonder if Porsche OEM steelies ran without hubcaps, but with long studs and open lug nuts will look wide-five-ish.

I'm in Hawaiian Gardens today!

I had the chance to tack a extra day onto a trip through Salt Lake City this weekend.  I asked Greg if he was OK with a visit and he was welcoming as usual.  There won't really be anything having to do with my car to view except a transaxle on a shelf, but I'll get a hands on with a few things I'm pondering. The big plus will be talking about the build vision with Greg so we're on the same page. I'm sure he'll check me if I'm going off the rails or making a big mistake, too.  I'll update later today or tomorrow with pictures and such. I've made color decisions, but Greg gets to know first! 

If anyone wants a picture of something in particular let me know. 

-Michael

@JMM (Michael) wrote- "I studied art and design as a young man and it's been interesting listening to discussions on the net about colors, confusion about this paint code or that, and some general misunderstandings about how color really works on your computer screen versus on an actual object. I actually wrote an article about color theory and such to help clarify my thinking on it. If there's any interest in that sort of thing I could clean it up and post it in the articles/resources section."

Sounds like the car is coming along, Michael- don't forget to post pics! (what can I say, we're such a visual bunch). I'm a painter in construction, do mostly residential repaints, occasionally do the interior decorator part of it and help people pick colors so I would love to hear your thoughts on the subject. You could send it via private message if you like, or I can send you my email address. Al 

Here are some shots from the visit!

First off, Greg is every bit as nice and knowledgable as everyone says. I had to be there on a Monday to make the connections work, and he didn't bat an eyelash even though he was having a real Monday at times. Took the time to answer every question I could think of, had plenty of his own, and made really sound suggestions about where not to go.  I really can't say enough about him and Anna in the office. Quality people.

It was busy! Out in the shop it was "Nothing but asses and elbows" as my dad used to say. Everything organized well, and clearly running like a smoothly oiled machine. The level of attention these cars are getting amazing and the level of finish is top notch. The panel fits look better than a real 356 ever did and regardless of color the paint looks like it's still wet. 

I got to see more of my car than I expected. There transmission was there, and I'll get one of the coupe bodies pictured.  They've been aging in the weather, and I think one of the reasons the finished product looks so good is that they don't rush this step. It seems to be quite important in fiberglass work.  I'll post color pallet info in a separate post. 

My transaxle!

I'll get one of these bad boys.

Here's a Suby radiator on a wide body speedster.

Here's the engine, with a Suby transaxle in the same car.

Here's a coupe nearing completion, Very classic build with whitewalls, chrome, etc.

Greg already posted on of this car on instagram, by my it is pretty.

Same car, I'll be using this steering wheel in my build.

You say your speedster is too big and you're looking for something a tad smaller?

That's it for now. I'm off to the airport. Color thoughts and other tidbits tomorrow!

-Michael

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I promised a post about my color choices and @ALB asked for a little more detail, so here's a bit on my reasoning, a tiny bit of color theory, and a healthy dose of opinion. Scroll to the bottom if all you want to know is what colors I chose, I won't take it personally .

Why Are Some Colors Polarizing?

Face it, some colors everyone can live with, or nearly everyone, and there are some that have equal measure of haters and devotees.  Why is that?  I think in large part the problem stems not from the color itself, but where you put it.  In our case we are putting it on something that we see as an iconic object and each person brings their own expectations to the viewing.  For example some the traditional German racing silver paint scheme is so attached to their vision of this car that anything else seems a travesty. For others a childhood experience, say an uncle’s black speedster, is so inextricably linked to their vision of the car anything else looks less appealing.  With this object we are also looking at something that everyone sees as being of a certain vintage.  Therefore we expect color combinations and finishes that look like they are from a certain period and we would likely find a modern color-shifting paint in a matte finish off-putting.  So one’s goal for their build and their experience with cars of this era will obviously have a great deal of impact on their choices for paint, upholstery, etc.

My primary goals are:

  • An outlaw look. This will give me more leeway than someone doing a stock look.
  • A finished project that has a cohesive look and makes all associated with it proud.
  • A car that can easily be sold may years down the line.
  • A unique take on the classic color pallets (I don’t want to see myself coming and going, but I don’t want people to see the car and go WTF was he thinking?) I want it to rhyme, if you will, with the classic choices available. 

This goals first approach gives me the parameters within which to evaluate color choices.  The outlaw goal opens up some choices, plus it gives me some interesting sources to look at for inspiration. There are people that do this kind of thing REALLY well. I’m thinking Rod Emory when his customers let outside the silver and black box (for instance the John Hall outlaw) and Singer when the customers give them free hand. So I won’t be put in the “It has to be an official Porsche paint code” box unless I want to get in it.

The resale thought puts some constraints on the project. I don’t expect to ever sell this car unless I can no longer drive it (my left leg falls off, or I start driving a pine box). At some point, though it will happen.  This rules out polarizing classic colors like Stone Gray, Fjord Green, and modern choices like metal flake metallics and color shifting pearls.  This goal is also in tune with the idea of making choices that rhyme with the classic color combinations available in the 50's. 

So where did I look and where did I wind up?  I looked at all the classic Porsche colors, the newer iterations of the classics in their PTS series, and some of the modern ones.  I looked at colors in other makes that are doing interesting things with modern colors that have a vintage vibe, like Subaru, Toyota, Mini, Volkswagen, and Jeep. In every case I tried to see the color in person. I looked at other builds on Instagram, youtube, etc. The computer screen can only give you a rough idea of if you're in the right color neighborhood (and that assumes that the person posting the picture has even identified the color correctly). There’s nothing like seeing it in person. You really must do this!  If you can't see a car in a particular color, then order a spray can of touch-up paint in the correct code and spry a nice big piece of cardboard. Carry it around and look at it in differing light conditions.

Don't trust your computer!  A painted object creates color by a subtractive process. It reflects only portions of available light, subtracting the other wavelengths by absorbing them.  That’s why paint looks different in changing light; there’s more or less of the spectrum to be reflected, or only certain parts of the spectrum available. A computer screen uses an additive process, shining various amounts of 4 base colors along with black to add up to the desired color. Adjust your screen brightness to see a color change subtly. Plus the digital cameras are using different sets of sensors and different software to capture a hue.  Then there’s sending the image by various compression methods.  Most members here will remember that a photo taken at the same moment with Ektachrome, Kodachrome, and Polaroid films would look very different. It’s a similar effect except the variations are endless. So the computer screen screen is a rough cut tool only, unless you do design work, have expensive calibration software running, and have controlled the photography process. 

Anyway, I kept coming back to two different grays;  a vintage Porsche color known as Modegrau or Fashion Gray, and a modern car color called Lunar Rock .  They are both very rich grays with overtones of green/tan/khaki.  They change A LOT in differing light conditions.  Funnily enough when I mentioned Fashion Gray to Greg he said, “You have to see this!” and dragged me out to the yard to uncover a friend’s coupe build painted in Fashion Gray.  It looked really good. Rumor has it that Greg will be taking his friend’s coupe to the SLO west coast gathering, so those of you there can get a bit of a preview.  Anyway, I found myself in the classic Porsche color chart after all, but the process makes me really confident in my choices. This should look striking, yet "right", individual, yet not odd, and it definitely rhymes with a classic 356 look. A future owner could easily add the chrome trim, paint the wheels silver, put on hub caps, and go a completely different route.  The rest of the color choices are below.

-A classic carpet; the #316 medium/dark gray German square weave

-A beautiful dark, deep red leather that Greg has sourced called Medium Red

-A Light gray headliner.  I’m letting Greg make this aesthetic choice when he has samples in to look at. I totally trust him on this.

-A set of Black powder coated Vintage 190 wheels, no hubcaps

-A deletion of the chrome from the window trim on the windshield and rear window

And there you have it. I’d love to hear your thoughts!

-Michael

There’s nothing like seeing it in person. You really must do this!

I wholeheartedly agree with that statement. My wife showed me the online ad for our Speedster. Her reaction? Terrible color, great price. And I agreed. Between notifying the seller to arrange a viewing and actually seeing the car in person, I was talking with paint shops getting quotes to repaint the car. 

I still recall the moment the seller opened the garage door, my wife turned to me and said, we’re not painting this car. 

There are some colors that look so right in person that just photograph terribly. And some colors that change completely given the environment at the time. 

You have a great analytical tactic to finding a color. That said, at the end of the day, it’s your car; and the only person that needs to love the color is you. 

One more bullet point you may want to add is attraction. (Ie. How much attention do you want to draw?). There’s good attention and bad (as in why in the #@&* would anyone paint that car THAT color?).  Our cars are pretty standout. But once you add a standout color to the car, you now have moths to a flame. 

@Panhandle Bob Thanks for the props, I can't wait either!!!

@Karyadi I like the Slate Grey, too. I've never seen a picture of it that captures the green overtones. It has an almost olive green look in certain lighting. The speedster in the shop pictures above is slate. It's stunning! A lot of the Porsche grays have a lot of green in them (Slate, Stone, Alex, etc.)

@aircooled Rabbit hole alert!!! I think that pearl white would do a lovely, subtle job of accentuating the compound curves on the car and would change a lot as you got closer to it. 

@Speck This is a pan based car, so it's the VW independent rear suspension with the trailing arms narrowed by 1" for clearance. The front is the VW beam axle/trailing arm suspension that was also present on the original 356. The IRS should keep the rear end a little more neutral at the limit, raise the limit, and yet everything will have a very vintage feel. The pictures of the Suby engined car above show the same kind of set-up I'll be using. If one wanted a more modern feel, then go with a new Beck super coupe with a bespoke frame and modern suspension, or an Intermeccanica with a 911 suspension.

@Kevin - Bay Area You said it! I love the Irish Green of your car. I thought about it, too, as I had a friend with an Irish Green 911. Green is a very hard color to photograph accurately. One of the other colors I considered (still waffling???) is called Lunar Rock. Goolge images for Lunar Rock RAV4 and you'll see a crazy range of colors NONE of which look like it in person...I mean, not even close. I also considered Nardo Gray, again, nothing like what you see on the inter webs. Maybe next year I'll get to come down for SLO and see you and the green machine in person.

JMM posted:

... the silver and black box (for instance the John Hall outlaw) and Singer ...

This rules out polarizing classic colors like Stone Gray, Fjord Green, and modern choices like metal flake metallics and color shifting pearls. 

I think you mean, John Oates?

Why is 'Stone Gray' a polarizing color?  Not being argumentative.  I seriously want to know, and I am planning on painting my project Stone Gray.  My rational for choosing Stone Gray; I like it.

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Still thinking about that Pearl White with Burgundy interior. One thing that's is distracting with all the beautiful colors on Spyder is that tapered paint strip from the tail light up to on top of the fender. It catches my eye too much. I do like the shape of it and consider it as a trim piece. I will put that shape on my car but make it very subtle by pin striping the shape on with a little spider web to hint there's a Spyder around.

Here's a full size drawing of what I have in mind.  Keep in mind that these in my drawing cannot be transferred to the car directly because they are flat drawn and the car ones have to follow the curves of the body. The silver car is just here to show how I think the red stripes are Too much, visually, and need to be toned down......Bruce

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@Todd M oops...I bet that poor guy gets that all the time. I really like Stone Gray, too. It's actually a very complex color that changes a lot in the light (if you look at a formula for it you'll even find red in surprising quantities).  It's a very green/khaki toned color and greens seem to elicit a wide range of reactions. Interestingly our eyes are tuned to be able to distinguish shades of green the best.  There was a very similar color being offered on some Subarus. I'm not sure what they call it, but I'd swear it's just a lighter tint of Stone Gray.  I also suspect that some types of color blindness render these complex colors very differently.  In any case I had several non-car types say they hated stone gray, and a few that loved it.  I think @Stan Galat has boiled down the aesthetic judgement to its essence, though. Someone is always going to think they would have done it differently, and they're welcome to pony up the bucks and have at it!

@aircooled Bruce, that's clever! I like it! May I suggest the vanity plate PTR PRKR   Seriously, though, I like the idea of the fender flashes in a web pattern. 

Bruce, I think Pearlescent White on a Spyder with the spiderweb teardrops would be frikken AWESOME!  Someone had a witch-queen motif on a speedster at Carlisle years ago and included a painted-on spider somewhere on the rear clip, too.

I have photos of the outside of my Pearl White car, and other photos of my Burgundy interior, but this is the only one showing the contrast between the two.  It pops:

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Head to an automotive paint supplier or a decent body shop to look at the paint chip books from outfits like Ditzler and others.  There are around 40 different white pearls from blue tint to gold tint to pink tint, depending on the make and model car they were meant for.  Mine is 1999 Audi White Pearlescent.  Take the book out and look at them in the sun as they'll look very different between fluorescent, LED, Mercury Vapor or Sun light AND they change hue as you walk around them in a circle.

Good hunting.

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JMM posted:

@Todd M  In any case I had several non-car types say they hated stone gray, and a few that loved it.

Oh.  Got it.  Some folks don't like it.

Bottom line, ..., there is only one person's opinion that matters on color choice, and it isn't mine.  My wife has final say so on the color.  Actually, she the has the first say so, the final say so, and all the say sos in-between.

When we first talked about "our" project, her first question was, "What color?"  I said I liked Stone Gray, but I also showed her Meissen Blue which she liked, but she liked Stone Gray more.  We went to the Emory open house where she saw a Stone Gray painted coupe, and after seeing it she decided that our car would be Stone Gray.

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But Meissen Blue looks beautiful also.

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See, there's the thing about color. It's personal. It's subjective. It's about what it is that you want. You can take advice from other people, but at the end of the day-- don't marry a woman because your friends like her. It's got to be what you want.

A lot of guys go ape over Meissen Blau (like the car linked above)and that's cool for them, I guess. There was a guy here in Peoria who had one for about 10 minutes a decade ago, and he was over the moon on the color. But to my eye, it just makes a car already on the very edge of being effete and pushes it across a line into being effeminate. I could drive a dove blue Lincoln Continental, but a baby blue clown car is not my thing. My wife would look great in it, however.

Stone gray (on the other hand) gives these cars a much-needed and healthy bit of masculinity. Black is the ultimate, but I'm not the guy to try to own one. Silver may have jumped the shark for a lot of people-- but to me, it just looks serious, and metallic, and awesome. The argument that you see them coming and going seems to overstate how many 356s (replica or otherwise) there are in Buttscratch, USA.

Everybody's got their thing. If I have a stupid serious car, I'd be inclined to paint it some wild and crazy color-- a 917 in Gulf livery, a iridescent green hemi 'cuda, a Gallardo in some shade of metallic orange. But if I've got a tiny car, I'm inclined to paint it in a more conventional and serious shade-- a BRG vintage Mini with a Union Jack on the top, a blood red Fiat 500 Abarth, or a stone gray 356 speedster replica.

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