Coupe Build! Plus Newbie

I wonder if a 3:44 R&P might not be more in order at highway cruising ?

A coupe is much more of a resonating sound chamber and once you get a subie the engine does not need to run at 3000rpm so why not have it drop to a lower Rpm?  it will be quieter at 70mph.   Also you will now be hearing the tranny a lot more while most A/Cooled guys hear the engine. just saying. 

Thanks for the input!  It's something we've batted around and currently with the altered ratios in the transaxle suggested by Greg we should be a bit below 3000 rpm at 70mph.  I forgot to mention above that I've also asked for a full dynamat job on the coupe.  You are right, they will turn into a resonator box at the slightest excuse...like starting them up.   I'll run it by Greg and Rancho one more time.

The ultimate IMO is to run a subiegears tranny and get that other gear.  

I have that and it works well but again getting the right ratios and R&P for the driving and cruising gear is still important  

A type 1 box is also good but you need to decide if you want more gears to row of if you just want to stay with a type 1.  Lastly, if your thinking you might want a 5th.  Think now rather than later.  

Oh Yeah,  if your altering the ratios the cost of doing that might be surprisingly close to a subie tranny 5th.  IMO, a well informed client just makes for a happier client as the choices you make you get to live with for a while...  just saying.

Hi Michael,

I own a coupe with mid-engine turbo Subi engine.  My engine is in what used to be the rear seat.  Rest assured, with proper sound deadening material, engine/tranny noise is not an issue. 

Ray:  I can't find the other thread, but I promised to do a run with Kathy's 2011 Outback and report back on RPM at 70, so here goes;

The car has an automatic CVT transmission so actual RPM at any particular speed is a bit vague, but holding around 70mph I'm seeing 1850 - 2100, so I would say the average is 2,000 rpm at 70.   That range included a few moderate hills and passing some old lady in a Buick.

Them's my numbers an I'm stickin' to 'em.....

@JMM (Michael)

Micheal, 'Welcome to the Madness' known as replica 356 ownership!

Your mechanical & business background certainly matches the demographic of a majority of the gearheads on this forum. Your build sheet looks like you have all your wish list covered.

Looking forward to following your project build and seeing the finished product on the road with you behind the wheel sporting a big-a$$ grin!  

Jim Kelly posted:

Hi Michael,

I own a coupe with mid-engine turbo Subi engine.  My engine is in what used to be the rear seat.  Rest assured, with proper sound deadening material, engine/tranny noise is not an issue. 

I think you forgot to add, being deafened helps when your past 50  

 "The build sheet currently says Vintage 190’s in 5.5” but I keep thinking about the 16X6” Porsche space saver spare wheels and the greater tire choices that would give. I think that the suspension was designed with high aspect ratio tires in mind, and the sidewalls are part of the suspension.  I also know it’s possible to over-tire a platform and make it steer like a truck. Part of the fun of these is the light steering and road-feel from the manual steering…but 200 horses, traction, etc.  Feel free to chime in, gang."

16" wheels do give you a lot more options when it comes to performance tires.  I have 16" on my IM6, 6" front, 8" rear.  I don't imagine you can go that wide, but the choice of tires should be a deciding factor.  Sixteen inch wheels won't look out of place when you can get a lower aspect tire.  

It sounds like you want to drive this car, so the better performance tires you can get, the more fun you'll have in the twisties.  I have Yokohama Advan Neo tires, and the grip is pretty good.

Wow, I love this place! Support, humor, ideas, and real numbers in record time.

@IaM-Ray Type one transaxle is what I want, and I'll triple check the ratios. A 200 horse fuel injected motor will be plenty flexible, heck it'd probably be fine with a 2 speed Corvair automatic.  I'm really looking forward to a shift lever that's connected to the shift forks with a steel rod instead of cables. And as you  pointed out, being half deaf from racing bikes will help with N part of NVH 

@Gordon Nichols Thanks for real numbers! I'm guessing the Outback is somewhat north of 1900lbs, too.

@MusbJim  Thanks for the support. I think I may need to add your name to my "Great-Jims-I-have-Known" list. I'm already sporting a big-a$$ grin. By the time I'm actually sitting in the coupe my face may have split. 

@Jim Kelly  I think you're right, It should be fine and I don't mind the added weight of the Dynamat. I think the air-cooled guys get a lot more intake noise in addition to the fan noise. Makes me wonder if anyone has put individual throttle bodies on a Subie. I also think I'll leave exploring that until way after I get it.

@Bob: IM S6 Thanks for the info. That's where my head is going at the moment. I do plan to drive the heck out of it.  I have a Mini Cooper ClubmanS and when I put on the 17X8 summer wheels with sticky rubber the smiles per mile go WAY up . Sadly, when the coupe gets done the Mini will go to a new home.

Over and Out,

Michael

FYI, with the weight of our cars I can start in any gear with the subie engine and tranny combo except 5th ... well I haven't tried fifth to tell you the truth  

Hi JMM and welcome to the madness. Far as the transaxle goes, if you are getting it from Rancho they build a special transaxle for Subaru powered cars they call the Pro Suby and they have it geared to match the Subaru powered band. I have one in my Speedster which was converted to Suby power by Special edition. It is a good match and drives out nice. I wonder if this is what Greg is getting for your build?

> We build what is called a Pro Suby trans
>
> Rhino case w gusset
> Weddle gears
> 3.88 German r/p
> HD axles
> Cromoly nut
> Super diff
> Dual HD covers
> This is the trans for the Subaru powered Replica car.

The gearing is 3.11-1.93-1.22-.82

Welcome to the madness!

Welcome aboard. Sounds like you have really put a lot of thought into the mechanicals. Good for you. The art is in the paint, trim and interior decisions. I'm certain you'll have a great driving and looking car. Sounds like you are heading towards an Emory look.

This is gonna be a fun one to follow! Congrats @JMM (Michael)!

@Jimmy V.  interesting.  What Rpm are you turning at 60 & 70 mph.  How are you liking the 4 speed?  

If I was going to paint my car, I would consider stone gray.

JMM posted:

I keep thinking about the 16X6” Porsche space saver spare wheels and the greater tire choices that would give.

 Great first post.

If I was doing this again, I'd absolutely do the 16" space-saver spares.

.82/3.88 is almost exactly the same gear as .93/3.44, which is what I've got. With a big water-cooled engine you may want to end up a bit lower, depending on the amount of time you think you'll spend on the freeway.

Ray is 100% correct regarding a 5-speed, as he is with 50+ y/o hearing loss. All other advice has been spot on as well.

I'm looking forward to following along with you. Put up pictures along the way, we love to live vicariously through other guys.

I love the 4 speed Rancho Pro Subie trans. My car is a wide body and I run 225/50/15 tire size on the back with a 23.86" diameter. I just drove my car after installing a GPS driven speedo. I was turning 3200RPM at 70MPH. Your tire size may have a larger diameter so your RPM at 70mph would be a little lower. The gearing seems perfect and 1st gear is actually usable. The acceleration is amazing going through the gears the RPM drop between gears changes is very well matched to the Subaru torque. It feels just right. I wouldn't want it turning much lower than this, it is right in the power band.

Thanks @Stan Galat I do my best.  I guess I have to talk to Greg again this week and rethink the wheels.  @Jimmy V.'s transaxle is what I'll be running with the addition of a limited slip dif.  

I'm pretty set the color at this point, but I own't post till I can add some pictures for entertainment value. Actual build pictures will have to wait for the actual building to start. Greg doesn't seem hang about once he's got a brief, so that'll happen soon enough I imagine. 

Thanks again everyone for the thoughts and info. 

JMM posted:

Thanks @Stan Galat I do my best.  I guess I have to talk to Greg again this week and rethink the wheels.  @Jimmy V.'s transaxle is what I'll be running with the addition of a limited slip dif.  

I'm pretty set the color at this point, but I own't post till I can add some pictures for entertainment value. Actual build pictures will have to wait for the actual building to start. Greg doesn't seem hang about once he's got a brief, so that'll happen soon enough I imagine. 

Thanks again everyone for the thoughts and info. 

I love your choice of wheels for the coupe. Very cool. 

Stan, the shadow of my wisdom has left   It is unfortunate that we cannot really try a whole bunch of combo's before we put down our greenbacks. 

IaM-Ray posted:

It is unfortunate that we cannot really try a whole bunch of combo's before we put down our greenbacks. 

That's a fact.

@JMM (Michael),  here's an interactive graph of speed in gears for the gearing @Jimmy V. describes above, with 185/65-15 tires. You can plug in other tire sizes to see how that will affect the overall gearing.

Looks like he's doing about 70 at 3000 rpm, 82 at 3500, and 94 at 4000 !

Michael, WTTM.  This is going to be a great story.  Glad you are taking us along.  I read through quickly, and have a dumb question.  Have seen Soobies hung out the back, and mounted mid -engine.  Which are you going for? As for noise, speak to Greg about what he can do or does routinely. Do the best you can here.  There will be lots of differing opinions and preferences, but for me, having the engine inside the car with me (mid-mount) would be an issue.  First, I have a hard time believing it would be no difference wrt noise.  Second would be the heat. Serviceability? Not sure about that either. Then I'd miss all that inside volume a lot. I carry a lot of stuff in the back of my Speedster, which is conventional wrt running gear, Type 1  A/C VW. And lastly, handling.  No debate here -- mid mount should be much better.  But these cars have had their engines hanging out the back for well over 60 years.  And oversteer can be very fun, once you get the hang of it.  Hang being the operative word. 

Kelly, I believe Beck and (snicker!) SAS are the only ones currently doing the mid-engine thing.  From what I've read Greg's cars are on Beetle pans but I think he's developing a tube (rear-engined) frame.

@El Frazoo I'm happy to take everyone along for the ride. We like rides.

Lane is correct, this build will be rear engined, same as a normal 356, real or replica. The car is pan based, in this case IRS with swaybars front and rear and discs all around. I wanted it rear engined in part because I'd have that lovely big area behind the seats for road trip storage, in part because I like the driving dynamics, and in part because I don't want to have another standard transmission car with a cable shifter.  There's something about a rod going right into the box, even if it's a long rod, that makes me happy.

I promised updates about color choices with pictures, stay tuned for that later today as long as real life doesn't get away from me. Also updates on engine spec and tranny build from those build sheets.

-Michael

Michael, you sound like my kind of guy -- with his ass hanging out in good form.  ;-)   So far, I am aligned pretty well with your thinking.  You have about described my Speedster, although it is not of the Outlaw style.  PS, I had two steel Coupes back in the day, the last being a '61 S90. Loved that car, wish I still had it.

No Kelly, you had two RUST Coupes back in the day, remember? 

Rusty steel in many places, just rust in many more.  Sheet metal, self taping screws and roofing compound kept it down so at least only your soles got wet.

My original coupe had holy and rusty floors  

I have a mid engine Subie A Coupe.  Dynamat on the engine cover works great and the noise is not an issue ( even thought your head is only 2 feet away from the engine.

I used a VW bus tranny with SubiGears reversed mod.... cable shifter 4 speed. tube chassis with custom A arms, Wilwood discs ( 4)  , fiberglass overlaying carbon fiber base on body.

Can see car at 

http://www.rcnmag.com/garage/wisdom-teeth

Cheers

Dr. Chris Kleber

www.kitmanmotors.com

Well, folks, this is getting real.  I can tell by the checks I'm writing!  The engine and transaxle have been specced out and are currently being built by their respective builders.  Greg hinted at a body not too far off in the future, which is quicker than I'd anticipated.

Engine Specs:

Subaru EJ25 SOHC later edition with larger heads and manifold and longer duration cam. This was originally a drive by wire engine modified to run a cable actuated throttle body. That means a little ore fiddling running said cable, but apparently nothing too is strange required. Greg prefers using the SOHC (easier valve adjustments, better packaging, etc) and says there's no problem with the larger manifold. Every engine will put up different power numbers even when everything is held to tight tolerances but this set-up should produce torquey and reliable 210-220 at the crank. That should do nicely.

Transaxle Specs:

Rancho is building an IRS Pro-Subie transaxle; Rhino case w/gusset, Weddle gears with ratios specific to the Subaru (3.11-1.93-1.22-.82), limited slip dif with 3.88 German R&P, HD side covers, 930 stubs. This should give a usable 1st gear and about a 3000 RPM at 70 mph cruising speed. This sounds fine to me as all the 4 cylinder cars currently in our household run at about that RPM at 70. I chose to go limited slip because I'll drive in all weathers (lots of rain around here..but coupe!), there are abundant mountain roads, and the narrow body/IRS combination will limit me to 185 section tires (maybe 195, but we'll see) and so it would be way too easy to light up one tire without one. 

I only want to do this once, so I'm trying to be sensible and take a lifetime's worth of learning to heart. And not just my lifetime's, but Greg's and John's and the boys at Rancho, and especially from folks here like Stan (thanks, everybody!). You really can create an expensive disaster, it's not that hard. I've done it.  Creating a usable work of art...that's tough.  I've done that, too, and I want to do it again here.  I'm willing to admit that I don't know what I don't know and ask for help. (I wonder how things would have turned out if I'd been willing to admit that 40 years ago?) Turns out wisdom is accessible to all of us.

Greg tells me he'll send some pictures when the body is there, John from Outfront will send motor pics soon (he's taking a greatly deserved few days off), and here's a picture of a gusseted Rhino case 'cause I said I'd have pictures and it's all I've got!

That's it for now,

Michael 

Good for you! I think you are clearly trusting the right guys to help with your decision making. 

Now you'll have to polish the transaxle case to keep up with Aircooled Bruce!  

(Just kidding....). 

I'd need to order up a new case of elbow grease and clear my calendar to keep up with Bruce... 

I had Rancho build me the same trans for my Subaru powdered Speedster except it doesn't have the limited slip. Are they using a Quaife torque biasing diff.? If not what type do they use? Can I ask how much more the Limited slip was? My trans. was $3995.00. Are you sure you are getting limited slip and not a super diff. ?

Below is the specs. from Rancho for the transaxle they built for me. Mine is a swing axle and yours is IRS of course:

      We build what is called a Pro Suby trans, retail is 3995.00
    
      Rhino case w gusset
      Weddle gears
      3.88 German r/p
     HD axles
     Cromoly nut
    Super diff
    Dual HD covers
    Completely built with axles, tubes, 1 pc boots,
    out to the wheel bearing.
   This is the trans for the Subaru powered Replica car.

Jimmy V. posted:

I had Rancho build me the same trans for my Subaru powdered Speedster except it doesn't have the limited slip. Are they using a Quaife torque biasing diff.? If not what type do they use?.. Are you sure you are getting a limited slip and not a super diff?

I'm interested in this as well, because as far as I know the only true limited slip differential available is the factory (and uber, uber rare) ZF. If there's something else available there's a bunch of us that want to know...

I'm pretty sure Al knows that there are no unicorns hanging out on the Rancho shop floor, and something as game-changing as a true Limited Slip Differential would have been trumpeted by any/everybody. Most everybody refers to the Quaife torque biasing part as an LSD, but it's different internally, and it works differently as well. Regardless, the Quaife TBD is by all accounts a very nice piece, and worth the money.

Bruce's build is using a Subaru transaxle, so he may be getting a true LSD. I have no idea what they have in them. Unless I'm badly mistaken, the only true LSD differentials (with friction plates, etc.) for VW transaxles are original German ZFs parts from back in the day.

I searched online for over 2 years for a used ZF, before one finally popped up on theSamba and I snatched it up. They go for about $1500 +/-. Most need rebuilt for more money yet.

It's a slippery slope.