Obviously I am missing something here.
Has anyone ever installed one of the 3.5 Qt. Thin Line Super Capacity Oil Sumps offered by EMPI?
They advertise it can be added without the loss of any ground clearance associated with other higher capacity sumps.
How can it hold more oil than the Thin Line 1.5 sump sold by CB Performance which extends 2 inches below the engine case?
https://aapistons.com/products...er-capacity-oil-sump
Replies sorted oldest to newest
most 1 1/2 quart sumps are relatively square in their horizontal dimensions; the Empi (and Berg) 3 1/2 quart unit is close to twice as wide as the smaller unit. As to how much it hangs down I don't know. Hope this helps. Al
Cliff, read the fine print in their catalog:
"...without the loss of ground clearance associated with other super capacity sumps..."
I don't know what other 'super capacity' sumps they're thinking of. They show a depth dimension of three inches, which is exactly the same as the 3.5 quart sump I had on my car for a while.
Until I happened upon a manhole cover one fine day that taught me three inches is probably too low on a Speedster.
I switched to the CB Performance Thin Line which gives about an inch and a half more clearance than the EMPI. It holds only about a quart and a half, but that may not make as much difference as you think.
An oil cooling system gets most of its cooling from the cooler (or coolers). A larger extended sump will eventually heat up very nearly as much as a smaller one, although it will take a little longer to do so. The main function of any extended sump is mostly to give the pump plenty of oil to draw no matter how spirited your cornering gets.
If you want to maximize clearance and sump capacity all at the same time, you can always go with a dry sump setup - but that's a bit of overkill for most of us.
I appreciate the input.
My understanding is that center line on the oil temp gauge that came with my VS would be about 180 degrees and I would like to keep the needle from going beyond that point; therefore, I was just wondering if installing a larger oil sump with its higher oil capacity would be worth a try but apparently not.
Great reply above Mitch!
There are several things in Cliff’s last post that warrant some response.
Firstly, if you’ve got Chinese VDO gauges, I think you’d find that midpoint on the gauge is probably more than 180°, but you really do need to check with them accurate temperature probe to verify (don’t use an infrared gun). 180° is actually perfect, and if your engine stays there under all load and ambient conditions, you don’t really need to do anything. But since the engine is installed in the speedster (and it likely is not a stock 1600), in all likelihood it will run hot at high speeds on a hot day. That’s just the nature of the beast.
It’s a common misconception that an expanded oil sump (by itself) will do anything regarding oil temperature control. An extended sump doesn’t cool anything, it just stores extra oil. I’m not sure how this idea got started, but adding cooling capacity is not what an extended sump is for. An extended sump is meant to keep the engine from running out of oil, during high-speed operation or otherwise.
It’s also meant to keep you from running out of oil with a properly installed remote oil cooler, which chews up about a quart of oil when it’s operational. Most thermostatic bypasses have a bleed function so that they oil cooler still full of oil even when it’s being bypassed, but it is important to keep in mind that there’s a lot of them oil moving around through various systems, and the engine does not have very much capacity to begin with. An extended some helps very much in that regard.
If you want to add additional oil cooling (and I think you do), you’ll need to add an auxiliary oil cooler. In my opinion, there’s no point in doing it without all of the attendant accessories: thermostatic bypass, thermostatically controlled auxiliary fan, etc. You’ll want to full-flow the engine, and at this point, you’ll want to add an oil filter.
None of this is a huge deal, but it’s a lot of different pieces, and there is a strong temptation to cheap out and skip some of it. Don’t. There’s nothing worse than taking something 75% of the way and getting 25% of the desired result.
Good luck.
The Porsche dipstick thermometer from Precision Matters is a good one for checking what your oil temperature really is (none of us really trust the uncalibrated dash gauge), but they were expensive (around $50 bucks) and had a 1" dial that was pretty hard to read, way down in the engine compartment.
What you can get instead, is a candy thermometer from Bed Bath and Beyond, with a probe that's at least 8" long to fit down the dipstick tube, like this:
https://www.bedbathandbeyond.c...=candy%20thermometer
This is just a product suggestion - a cheaper, analog version with the dial facing up, so you can easily read it, is good, too, especially if it can be calibrated in a cup of boiling water at 212º by loosening the dial nut and rotating the dial to the proper temperature.
Pull out your regular dipstick and measure from the bottom to the cap that fits on top of the tube - that's about how long you want the new one to be so it gets down into the oil in the sump. Walmart/Target has them, too, and I suppose you could use a BBQ meat thermometer as long as you don't go sticking it into a steak later on. 
Yeah, with respect to the VDO gauges, on most of them I've seen, 1/3 of the way up from cold is 180 degrees. At least that's where mine finally went up to and stayed on a hot day, and verified with a plain old contact thermometer that I also use for A/C work.
And Stan is right, definitely, about the oil cooler. Do IT! and do it right. Don't cheap out with rubber hose and hose clamps, just cry once and spend the money on AN fittings and hose. And be very careful where you route them.
Be careful and thoughtful how you plan your system. Mine comes from the oil pump into the remote filter, then out of the filter housing to a thermostat(190 in my case). If the oil is cold, it gets routed right into the main oil galley. If it's hot it goes to the cooler and back.
When the thermostat opens is when oil cooler drainback comes into play and especially the extended sump. The cooler and lines can take a quart or more of capacity. If there is drainback, then the thermostat opens, then whoosh goes a quart or more of foamy air until the oil pushes it's way through. That momentary pressure loss at high rpm and/or load could toast your bearings.
You've got a couple choices when you design the system. You can have the cooler equal to or lower than the high level of oil in the sump(lower than the crankshaft center). Or you can position the cooler higher but with the inlet and outlet up so that the cooler is always full and can't drain back.
My setup is the latter, and if I have any drain back at all it is only a foot of hose times 2 of vertical hose above the thermostat. There is the entire cooler and about 6 feet of hose angled down hill toward the cooler that stays full.
Gordon and Danny,
Along with the excellent advice Stan and Mitch have given there can be no doubt about it, I've got a good bit of work to do 
. . . but I've already got the candy thermometer from Bed Bath and Beyond. 
The car is in the shop getting its rear brakes replaced but I'm to get it back later this afternoon. When it's picked up I'll speak to the mechanic, and maybe another fellow down the road, about having the original oil cooler replaced with a new Setrab FP119M22I oil cooler.
After doing a search on the forum this morning I also suspect it would be a good idea to have the new cooler mount in the left rear wheel well (if it will even fit) rather than in front of the shroud where the current one is now.
None of it is going to be cheap put I really love the car and would like to take it on some extended road trips this summer without having to worry about the engine overheating. . . or maybe even worst.
Any thoughts?
To add to what Stan and Gordon said- any time a type 1 engine is driven harder than it's intended use (low budget transportation) it needs more oil in the sump at the pickup than a stock engine can hold. Even a stock Beetle can be driven hard enough to uncover the oil pickup frequently, and needs more oil capacity (note that word!). An extended sump's function is to add oil capacity, plain and simple, and does nothing measurable for temperature- that's the cooling system's job. And it's not just higher revs that will cause the engine to run out of oil momentarily- a 1600 with dual carbs and a header will frequently uncover the pickup if driven 'spiritedly', and if you ignore what the dash light is telling you it won't be long before the engine seizes and it has to be rebuilt.
Fwiw- most people consider 180' "just getting warmed up", and temps from 180-220' are perfectly within the engine's operating parameters. Temps much higher than this and it's time to look at the cooling system, but that's another subject altogether. Al
PS- there was a member here 3? 4? 5? years ago with a modified engine (but no sump) that said the oil light came on "only occasionally" when slaloming his Speedsters and was totally surprised when one morning the engine would no longer turn over. I will say it again- if you drive it harder than the engineers at Wolfsburg intended (and every one of us does!) the engine needs more oil available to it at the sump pick up. Oil in the filter, cooler and lines is NOT AT THE SUMP PICK UP! Al
@Cliff Presley - Charlotte, NC
Cliff,
When I had my cooler installed the guy that put it in fabricated new mounts and the cooler was installed under and inside the frame rail on the left side of the car. The filter was put in the left rear wheel well.
@Cliff Presley - Charlotte, NC- Yeah, its a good idea to move the cooler and stop preheating the air going into the fan. Is the stock cooler still in the shroud? Does the engine have a full flow filter? And don't be afraid of oil temps climbing to 220 or even 225 or 230' as long as it's only very occasionally and not for extended periods. These things are tougher than we give them credit for. I consider 210-220 the top of normal operating parameters.
about having the original oil cooler replaced with a new Setrab
Leave the OEM cooler in the cooling shroud - no reason to remove it. That's not the best place for the hoses to an auxiliary cooler any how. Best is to drill and tap the case (difficult but not impossible when its assembled) or a new quality cover for the oil pump.
WOLFGANG posted:about having the original oil cooler replaced with a new Setrab
Leave the OEM cooler in the cooling shroud - no reason to remove it. That's not the best place for the hoses to an auxiliary cooler any how. Best is to drill and tap the case (difficult but not impossible when its assembled) or a new quality cover for the oil pump.
@Cliff Presley - Charlotte, NC
By "original cooler" did you mean the external Mesa cooler Kirk uses that he puts in the void in front of the firewall? If so then yes, a Setrab will be better and it should be moved to a better location.
If you meant the "original cooler" in the doghouse just leave that in place and either have the case drilled for full flow (best method but more expensive) or add a CB Performance oil pump (http://www.cbperformance.com/p...ct-p/maxi26early.htm) Easiest, least expensive method. This is what I have and it has been working very well. Resist going to the 30mm pump because the oil pressure will be too much.
Robert M posted:WOLFGANG posted:about having the original oil cooler replaced with a new Setrab
Leave the OEM cooler in the cooling shroud - no reason to remove it. That's not the best place for the hoses to an auxiliary cooler any how. Best is to drill and tap the case (difficult but not impossible when its assembled) or a new quality cover for the oil pump.
By "original cooler" did you mean the external Mesa cooler Kirk uses that he puts in the void in front of the firewall? If so then yes, a Setrab will be better and it should be moved to a better location.
Bob, Yes, I was referring to the external cooler VS used. In hindsight, I suspect the company may have used the same model external cooler for all the engines they installed in their cars not matter if they were 1600cc, 2110cc or larger.
Wow, to say that during the last 24 hours I've been given a lot of very valuable advice to digest and implement would definitely be an understatement.
Please accept my sincere thanks to each of you for your kind generosity.
Go Speedsters!!!!!
Love your little sign off thingy, Cliff! And to refresh my memory, what size engine are you running again? (I know I've asked before; must be getting old...)
ALB,
2110cc with duel 44 IDF Webers.
Cliff
Cliff Presley - Charlotte, NC posted:ALB,
2110cc with duel 44 IDF Webers.
Cliff
Yeah. You definitely want the full-meal-deal.
Full-flow, Berg bypass cast-iron cover. Setrab or 96 plate EMPI in the left wheelwell. Remote filter. Mocal sandwich thermostat. Fan controlled by thermostatic switch. AN fittings. Teflon-lined, braided hoses.
Buy once, cry once.
Hello Stan,
Buy once, cry once. Truer words were never spoken!!!
I'm not much of a mechanic but I really enjoy working on the car when ever I can. However, due to my poor mechanical skills, since it arrived back in August 2016, I've spent over $6,000 on parts and additional labor trying to get it sorting it out as best possible. Now it's time to tackle the last of the car's problems, an engine that wants to over heat but it will be worth every penny because I love the car.
Putting it another way, we are only on this old mud ball once and now that I am approaching the twilight of my years why not enjoy them as best as can be if given the opportunity? And that is the primary reason I bought the Speedster. . . for the pure joy it gives me when ever I drive it.
All the best my friend,
Yeah, when I did my "full-Flow" conversion I, too, got "sticker shock" when I went to get the hoses made up. I used stainless braided teflon hose and the rule of thumb is $10 bucks per foot of hose and $10 bucks per each end fitting and the total cost was around $150 for four short hoses (I did mine in 2004 so the prices may have risen since). Braided Teflon hose is really stiff, too, so you have to be thoughtful of where/how you run the hoses and/or fittings.
I found a "Tubes 'N Hoses" place to do them back then, but have since found several local places near me that do custom hydraulic hoses (and everything used in construction becomes "custom" once the equipment leaves the factory). I've found that showing them a photo of the car and explaining what you're up to usually gets pretty good service.
I used to do it that way, but have started just buying hose and ends from Summit Racing, and making them up myself. I've changed up a lot of stuff a lot of times, and this (at least) allows to me reuse the ends.
One thing to note, guys- there is a difference between hydraulic hose/fittings (and the demands of a hydraulic system) vs a high volume engine oiling system. Hydraulic systems are used to apply pressure, there is not a lot of fluid movement (like an engine oiling system) and some hydraulic fittings are very restrictive (by engine oiling requirement standards) as they are not designed to flow large volumes of fluid. The thing to remember- pressure doesn't necessarily equal flow.
Engine oil pumps and filters, otoh, are rated at how many gallons per minute (gpm) they will pass/flow. I've read that a stock type 1 oil pump is capable of 3 gpm, with some porting work substantially more and bigger geared (26 and 30mm) pumps will pass even more. The Wix 51515 filter, which they claim will filter down to 21 microns, is rated at 7-9 gpm (more than enough for our little watchwinders), while the 51515R (to quote Wix- "T-71 media lowers restriction and increases hp- not for street use") is good for 28gpm (I'm picturing Nascar and continuous high rpm road racing- engines with larger than normal bearing clearances) but only filters to 60 microns.
You can probably see that we need hoses (and fittings) that will flow substantial amounts of oil. It's generally accepted (within the automotive industry) that #8 is the minimum size for engine oil lines and Mark Thurber (a member and has posted here) has said (on the Samba) "the inside diameter of 3/8" (#8) oil fittings need to be at least .375" (10mm) and any sharp corners on the insides of the fittings need to be smoothed out for flow just like when porting a head". I've heard of some brands of automotive oil line fittings being unnecessarily restrictive (re-branded hydraulic fittings with colorful anodizing?), so pay attention to what you're buying, as just 1 restriction can reduce oil pressure to the bearings and, depending where the oil pressure sender is, vital engine parts may not be getting all the lubrication you think they're getting. Al
PS- although a couple people here use the 51515R filter you can guess that I don't think it's the right 1 for most of our engines. Bearing clearances in most of our engines (being built for the street) are on the small side (around .002") and since a 60 micron particle is over .002", that filter isn't doing your engine any favors.
I have been making my own braided stainless hoses with stuff from anfittingsdirect.com. The prices seem very good. The fittings seem slightly less beautiful than the more expensive ones but still look good. Plus, not many people are going to look really close at the fittings on my oil cooler lines.
Stan Galat posted:Yeah. You definitely want the full-meal-deal.
Full-flow, Berg bypass cast-iron cover. Setrab or 96 plate EMPI in the left wheelwell. Remote filter. Mocal sandwich thermostat. Fan controlled by thermostatic switch. AN fittings. Teflon-lined, braided hoses.Buy once, cry once.
Abso-friggin-lutely!!!!!!
Jeg's or Summit branded fittings and hose are just rebranded Russell or some other fittings and have been working well for me for TEN years and 40,000 miles. They'll save you a few bucks on each fitting.
I also bought a male-female AN-8 fitting with 1/8" pipe thread tap that I can put anywhere in my system and check temperature or pressure with mechanical gauges. Easy peasy to verify stuff.
I use the NYLON braided hose instead of the steel. Four reasons: It's a little cheaper, easier to cut, and more flexible, and the best reason of all, it won't abrade or rub through anything it touches. My lines run along my powdercoat steel frame, so I don't want that ruined. Be mindful of where you run them and use proper metal clamps with rubber on them.
Berg cast iron relief cover? This is a must have!
Full flow engine? Yup need it.
Ford aluminum filter flange with Wix 51515? Gotta have it. P.S.: Al Blanchette is 150% right!
Derale 190 degree thermostat, instead of Stan's Mocal sandwich unit, works perfectly.
An Empi 96 plate cooler with electric fan and 180 degree thermostat finishes it off.
DannyP posted:Stan Galat posted:Yeah. You definitely want the full-meal-deal.
Full-flow, Berg bypass cast-iron cover. Setrab or 96 plate EMPI in the left wheelwell. Remote filter. Mocal sandwich thermostat. Fan controlled by thermostatic switch. AN fittings. Teflon-lined, braided hoses.Buy once, cry once.
Abso-friggin-lutely!!!!!!
Jeg's or Summit branded fittings and hose are just rebranded Russell or some other fittings and have been working well for me for TEN years and 40,000 miles. They'll save you a few bucks on each fitting.
I also bought a male-female AN-8 fitting with 1/8" pipe thread tap that I can put anywhere in my system and check temperature or pressure with mechanical gauges. Easy peasy to verify stuff.
I use the NYLON braided hose instead of the steel. Four reasons: It's a little cheaper, easier to cut, and more flexible, and the best reason of all, it won't abrade or rub through anything it touches. My lines run along my powdercoat steel frame, so I don't want that ruined. Be mindful of where you run them and use proper metal clamps with rubber on them.
Berg cast iron relief cover? This is a must have!
Full flow engine? Yup need it.
Ford aluminum filter flange with Wix 51515? Gotta have it. P.S.: Al Blanchette is 150% right!
Derale 190 degree thermostat, instead of Stan's Mocal sandwich unit, works perfectly.
An Empi 96 plate cooler with electric fan and 180 degree thermostat finishes it off.
Awwww, Danny, you even spelled my last name right!
One question, guys- is the nylon braided hose available with the teflon or rubber lining?
DannyP posted:Derale 190 degree thermostat, instead of Stan's Mocal sandwich unit, works perfectly.
That's great too. I'd take either over the standard EMPI part most folks settle for, however.
Since we are in the Confessional , be sure to route the oil lines to the the proper In & Out ports on a remote oil filter, should you manage to reverse the lines the engine will run for just about 6 seconds and physically die a prompt death.
You are correct Alan.
Al, it's rubber hose. 275 degree rating and 350 psi. But no teflon.
Alan Merklin posted:Since we are in the Confessional , be sure to route the oil lines to the the proper In & Out ports on a remote oil filter, should you manage to reverse the lines the engine will run for just about 6 seconds and physically die a prompt death.
I don't think I need to ask how you know that...
DannyP posted:You are correct Alan.
Al, it's rubber hose. 275 degree rating and 350 psi. But no teflon.
And the reason I asked, Danny, is I've heard of the rubber lined hose swelling shut as it gets older, so it's something to watch out for.
PS- there are people who say (for your engine's sake) that any rubber lined hose needs periodic replacement, whereas teflon lined hose really is a forever thing.
AN fittings for TPFE are different than for standard AN hoses. Once you start down one road, you're committed.
With the dry-sump, Accusump, and remote cooler, I've got a billion oil hoses. When I started buying AN fittings and hose from Summit, I just got the standard ones. I wish I'd have gone with TPFE, but I didn't.
No adverse effects so far.
As an aside, it's possible to use rubber hose with the appropriate AN fittings, if you have the will and the hand strength to make it happen. I use these for my breathers, as they are about 15x better looking than brass barbed fittings.
Stan...you have an Accusump on a dry-sumped engine?
edsnova posted:Stan...you have an Accusump on a dry-sumped engine?
Yep. Pre-lube, baby.
Stan, I used push-on hose barbs for my breather hose, with heat shrink to cover the fraying cloth on the German hose.
DannyP posted:Stan, I used push-on hose barbs for my breather hose, with heat shrink to cover the fraying cloth on the German hose.
That'd be a nice solution. I did this:
I used 5/8" heater hose for my breather box to the carbs and have wondered about the fact that it seems to ooze an oily substance over time, so I've been just wiping it off once a quarter to make them look nice. I thought it was the oil vapor being sucked through and permeating the rubber or something, but the other week I found a piece of the same hose in a storage bin that was left over when I made my breather hoses and, guess what? I has an oily surface, too! Now I don't know what it is. Don't much care - I'll just wipe them off once a quarter.......
Stan, that is a nice solution. I had female bungs Tig-welded to my fake 
"Porsche" valve covers. The only heat shrink I had at the time was red, I don't know if I ever really loved the look. And that's my fake 547-ish breather I made.
I recently learned something as well, I had plugged the outlet of the breather that goes to my R side carb top. When the engine runs long enough and gets hot enough, oil runs right out of the front crank slinger. Ask me how I know LOL.
I had forgotten to unplug this hose and reattach to the carb top. Oops.
"Soot Happens"
DannyP posted:Stan, that is a nice solution. I had female bungs Tig-welded to my fake
"Porsche" valve covers. The only heat shrink I had at the time was red, I don't know if I ever really loved the look. And that's my fake 547-ish breather I made.
Danny...I've gone dry sump with my new air cooled motor and have a question about your red heat shrink. That heat shrink looks pretty tough ( like strong), does it provide any clamping strength or is it just a cosmetic finish to the joint ? Thanks..
If they are push lock fittings, the barbs on the fittings hold the hose on.
