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1626E232-436E-4376-8242-3887A535F8B29D81F944-C638-4D29-AA01-EE8F2404D151I’m not going to start a build thread until the build begins which is likely a year away. But I pretty much know what the car will look like. I did have to decide on the engine since Pat Downs is starting to order parts. This is what I’m shooting for. Gold and black 911 fan shroud. My engine will have Dells instead of throttle bodies so I’m using black and gold Vintage Speed air filter covers.

Phil Luebbert

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@550 Phil posted:

It will be a 2.65L Type 4. Pat Downs will be sending an invoice in a few days. If it has engine specs I will share on this thread. I’m sure it will be very similar to the 2.65L engines that Fat Performance built for Rod Emory. And since I’m plagiarizing one of his cars I thought this engine would be appropriate.

Ok, Phil, I like that!                                                                                                                     And it will be a MONSTER!

Here you go. Oh. The filters are Vintage Speed.

2650cc 78mm x 104mm type-4 engine kit with 48x38 ported and polished heads, dual springs, titanium retainers, 70cc reshaped combustion chambers. lightweight chromoly flywheel, 256@.050 duration cam, stage-2 Kennedy clutch, daycon 200mm clutch disc, .058 wall Manton chromoly push rods, JE 104mm pistons, Total seal piston rings, 5.158 length H beam connecting rods with ARP 2000 bolts, DIY-123 ignition

Looks good! Can the air filter covers be purchased separately? and if so, from whom?. Thanks

Vintage Speed sells those air filters with a foam insert for filtering. DO NOT use the cheap foam insert. It falls apart quickly. Use a 6" round (IIRC) K&N style filter. EMPI also sells one. The filter is malleable and can be squeezed into an oval to fit inside the filters. I have them and they are really nice.

Not sure exactly what you mean by intake. I’m hoping to use my new in box 48 Dells with K&Ns and Vintage Speed filter covers above. I know lots of folks think my 48 Dells are too big for this engine. Pat seems to think they are fine. We’ll see. If I have to go with 45 Webers that’s fine and it’s bookend time for the 48s.

Pat is saying 190hp and 230ft-lbs. Maybe he’s being conservative. I’ll let to know after I return from CA with the dyno results.

Last edited by 550 Phil
@550 Phil posted:

Not sure exactly what you mean by intake. I’m hoping to use my new in box 48 Dells with K&Ns and Vintage Speed filter covers above. I know lots of folks think my 48 Dells are too big for this engine. Pat seems to think they are fine. We’ll see. If I have to go with 45 Webers that’s fine and it’s bookend time for the 48s.

Pat is saying 190hp and 230ft-lbs. Maybe he’s being conservative. I’ll let to know after I return from CA with the dyno results.

48 Dels- intake- that's what I was wondering.  And I think Pat's right, not for something that's over 2600 cc's and uses a 48 mm intake valve; your 48's will be perfect!  I'd bet 44 IDF's or 45 Dels would be too small.

Last edited by ALB

Rod Emory seems like a good guy, and I really, really like Gary's (Rod's dad) cars. Rod is a gifted fabricator, and a better businessman than I could ever hope to be, but I'm less wild about his cars.

Rod's grandpa started out in the Rod and Custom scene in SoCal when it was just rich, talented kids looking for cool cars. When Gary took over the business, he started building "Emory Outlaws", stripped down 356s meant to be extremely functional sports cars that stuck a thumb in the eye of the PCA "numbers-matching windshield wiper" crowd. He eventually moved the operation to Oregon to get even further away from all the hype and nonsense. For my money, this was the golden age of the Emory Outlaw.

When Rod took over, he ended up moving Emory back to SoCal from Oregon (where Gary had taken the business), and the entire operation became pretty Hollywood and hit the afterburners. Exposure exploded from a fringe movement into a cultural phenomenon.

The timing was perfect. Classic cars in general were really taking off and hitting the mainstream. Porsche lovers also experienced a revolution - the Gary Emory "outlaw" and R-Gruppe 911 guys moved from the fringes into the dead-center of the frame. Everybody wanted to be the Porsche bad-boy.

Sure, there are still the 99-point coucours restoration weenies out there still worried about the date stamp on the brake drum, but the R-Gruppe and Emory cars (along with Magnus Walker) moved the stripped-down Mulholland Dr. street-racer look into the mainstream. When Singer (et al) started "reimagining" 911s as 7-figure cars, the lid blew off valuations. No longer would anybody ever say, "yeah, it'd be cool to do that, but these things will only ever be worth $100K, so why?" As recently as 2000, you could still buy a Speedster for $20,000.

Rod was perfect for this new world. He is personable, has good teeth and all his hair, a pretty wife, and handsome children. He hung black and whites all over the shop and posted 114 times a day on Instagram, Twitter, and FB.

I was OK with this until the whole "Emory 911/4" thing. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe Chuck Beck was the first guy to cut two cylinder spigots out of a 911 case and weld it back together. What's for sure is that Dean Polopolus has had a business selling 911/4 cases, cranks, and cams for years and years (as far back as 2002 that I know of personally).

But recently, Rod Emory began doing this himself, which is fine - what sticks in my craw is that he seems to be passing this off as "his 911/4", which it is (in that he's doing it), but which was certainly not his idea and not the only way to get one.

I looked at doing a 911/4 back in 2008. I contacted Dean Polopolous and got the prices - it was going to be about $30K at the time, which seemed about twice what I wanted to spend, but which would have been a screaming value as compared to what Rod is getting now. George Brown was looking really, really hard at one (as the ultimate way to better Jake Raby) during the George/Jake Holy-Wars back in the early 00s.

As far as the raw (gold) fiberglass shrouds - to me, that's not an Emory thing, that's a Porsche 917 thing. The R-Gruppe guys have been doing it for a hundred years on their cars and unless I'm mistaken the original Singer car had one as well. I think it's the coolest thing ever.

My point is that none of the visual cues of your proposed engine, Phil scream "Emory" - they scream, "serious Porsche". Having Pat Downs build the engine gives it instant credibility with anybody who knows anything.

It doesn't look to me like you are "copying" anything Rod's built, any more than Rod is copying what his dad built. Build what you want. It's going to be fantastic, and we'll all be waiting for a chance to crawl all over/under it.

But were the shrouds actually gold?

All the old aircooled racecars I've seen were done with light weight in mind. A few thin layers of glass and clear resin(they were almost see-though), no gold tone to them at all.

Unless they've yellowed with age or were painted?

Phil, you do you. Build exactly what you want to. Don't ask for advice, even though you'll get plenty of it unsolicited. I'm behind you whatever you do.

@DannyP posted:

But were the shrouds actually gold?

All the old aircooled racecars I've seen were done with light weight in mind. A few thin layers of glass and clear resin(they were almost see-though), no gold tone to them at all.

Unless they've yellowed with age or were painted?

The ones I've seen have a pretty strong amber (like pilsner) cast in the raw (no gel-coat) resin. It could be age, but it was my impression they were like that from day 1.

What I've seen is definitely less "gold" than the Emory car pictured above.

Now granted, it's not like I bump into 30 a day here in Morton, IL - but in pictures, you know?

Last edited by Stan Galat
@ALB posted:

48 Dels- intake- that's what I was wondering.  And I think Pat's right, not for something that's over 2600 cc's and uses a 48 mm intake valve; your 48's will be perfect!  I'd bet 44 IDF's or 45 Dels would be too small.

Thank you for saying that.  I've been told that the 48s are too big for a streetable car.  Now I have you and Pat saying that they will be fine.  That's a lot of street cred giving my carbs a thumbs up.  After the incredible performance and reliability I have with my Outfront Suby in my spyder it really took a leap of faith (and an open pocket book) to build a monster T4. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwln2ji-yOE

But recently, Rod Emory began doing this himself, which is fine - what sticks in my craw is that he seems to be passing this off as "his 911/4", which it is (in that he's doing it), but which was certainly not his idea and not the only way to get one.

Stan I'm not as well read about this subject as you.  And I'm sure that Rod Emory stands on the shoulders of giants but at least in this TV show he gives credit to Beck and Polopous for the development of the 911/4.

Last edited by 550 Phil
@dlearl476 posted:

Porsche started using the “raw” GRP after the 547 in the late 60’s.

The colors vary from almost clear to tan, based on the color of the glass cloth used.

57073C9D-FEC3-498E-A171-EB8D293D73CB

I, too, love the raw fiberglass look. If it hadn’t been a fortune, I would have bought one for my Spyder’s T1 instead of the Cooled1 Thing repro.

The material showing appears to be Kevlar.  Porsche used a cloth twill,  The color depended on the type of resin used.  In most cases it was an Epoxy which produced the amber color when the catalyst was added.

@550 Phil posted:

...I've been told that the 48s are too big for a streetable car.  Now I have you and Pat saying that they will be fine.  That's a lot of street cred giving my carbs a thumbs up...

I've read 36 mm venturis will supply enough volume for a 2276 to about 6,000 (or a tad more) rpm, Phil, so a 2650 (374 cc's more, or 16.47% bigger than the 2276) is going to need 38 or 39 mm venturis to hit the same redline.  Guys have done it, machining vents out to 38 mm for 44 IDF's for more rpm's and it works for drag racing, but vents that big in 44 IDF's or 45 Del's don't work well on the street. The volume of the big vents is too much for the transition circuits so you don't get smooth transition from the idle (which you drive on the majority of the time) to the main circuits, hence the need for properly sized carburetors.

And you have a pair of new, still in the box, never had gas through them 48 mm Dellortos- very cool!  I'm sure they will serve you well. I have a pair of mid '70's Italian manufacture, still in the box 48 IDA's (got them in a trade way back when I was planning a high 11/low 12 second engine for my Cal Look bug) and can't use them in my Speedster- even with the shortest manifolds I could find there's not enough room for proper air cleaners.  They are waayyy cool, but IDF's will make close to the same peak power (and better power through the whole rpm range) and with their more sophisticated float assemblies be better on the street anyway.

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