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They sell ETOH free 90 octane gas a couple of blocks from my house in Charlottesville where I keep my Suby Spyder. Are there advantages to running ETOH free gas in a Subaru?

I’ll be putting a type 4 in my Beck 356 and I’m determined to try to run ETOH free gas in that car.

Phil Luebbert

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This is only slightly less controversial than an oil thread.

Here’s my take: When ethanol replaced whatever poison they used to put in gasoline to help emissions, many of the rubber/plastics used in fuel systems weren’t compatible. I’m in the process of replacing all that stuff in my 61 Evinrude.

In the years since, that has mostly changed, so if you’ve got a recent build, it doesn’t really matter. But…

Besides my infrequently driven Spyder, my Ducati sits almost all the time (103 miles last summer. And that was a 3 year high). It used to take the better part of an afternoon to get it running in the spring. Since I started using eFree gas 3-4 years ago, I charge the battery, open the petcock, pump the throttle 3 times, and it starts the 4-5 time.

Same with the Spyder. It sits a month or two and generally fires right up.

On top of that, all my vehicles require premium. In my market, eFree is generally 4/5¢ +/- the premium price. And the Porsche, Smart, and Mercedes all get 3-4 mpg better mileage with eFree.

If eFree is readily available in your area like it is here, I say go for it.

I run 91 octane no-ethanol in the BMW airhead bike and ALL my lawn equipment.

I'd run it in the Spyder, but I need the 93 octane...

So that's what I run, unfortunately it has ethanol.

Fortunately, my fuel pickup, pre and post filters, fuel pump, pressure regulator, fuel rails, injectors, metal lines (Nickel-copper) and braided EFI hose are all compatible.

@DannyP posted:

I run 91 octane no-ethanol in the BMW airhead bike and ALL my lawn equipment.

I'd run it in the Spyder, but I need the 93 octane...

So that's what I run, unfortunately it has ethanol.

Fortunately, my fuel pickup, pre and post filters, fuel pump, pressure regulator, fuel rails, injectors, metal lines (Nickel-copper) and braided EFI hose are all compatible.

You have Sunoco stations out there.

My buddy bracket races his supercharged 6 speed Impala SS out in CA. They have 4-5 banger pumps with everything from E-85 to 110 octane leaded gas. I’m pretty sure they had 93 octane eFree.

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@DannyP posted:

I run 91 octane no-ethanol in the BMW airhead bike and ALL my lawn equipment.

I'd run it in the Spyder, but I need the 93 octane...

So that's what I run, unfortunately it has ethanol.

Fortunately, my fuel pickup, pre and post filters, fuel pump, pressure regulator, fuel rails, injectors, metal lines (Nickel-copper) and braided EFI hose are all compatible.

Thanks Danny.  My 1984 R100RT airhead will do well without ethanol and 91 octane

BTW started running E free in all my other small machines as well sometime ago but around here they are trying to ban anything with a small motor.

Last edited by IaM-Ray
@IaM-Ray posted:

BTW started running E free in all my other small machines as well sometime ago but around here they are trying to ban anything with a small motor.

We talked about this a while back, and my rabies started leaking.

The usual suspects told me I didn't know what I was talking about, that leaf-blowers are noisy and evil (as if they are the only things with engines under 25 hp). Kalifornia has already taken the plunge because, well, Kalifornia. I'm wondering how that'll work in fire season, when the smoke-jumpers drop in with their Fisher Price tiny-tot chain-saws. The rolling blackouts should be fun with no <25 hp gen-sets - but hey, "rustic" might come back in vogue.

I watched my neighbor try to mow her size-tiny lawn today with a cute little cordless mower. It's a little-bitty lot - maybe 60' x 125' with a house taken out of that.

She had to stop and let the battery charge. I mowed, trimmed, edged, and blew 3 lots (and sprayed for weeds) in the time it took her planet-saving miracle-mower to recharge.

Let me know how that goes up there.

@Stan Galat posted:

We talked about this a while back, and my rabies started leaking.

The usual suspects told me I didn't know what I was talking about, that leaf-blowers are noisy and evil (as if they are the only things with engines under 25 hp). Kalifornia has already taken the plunge because, well, Kalifornia. I'm wondering how that'll work in fire season, when the smoke-jumpers drop in with their Fisher Price tiny-tot chain-saws. The rolling blackouts should be fun with no <25 hp gen-sets - but hey, "rustic" might come back in vogue.

I watched my neighbor try to mow her size-tiny lawn today with a cute little cordless mower. It's a little-bitty lot - maybe 60' x 125' with a house taken out of that.

She had to stop and let the battery charge. I mowed, trimmed, edged, and blew 3 lots (and sprayed for weeds) in the time it took her planet-saving miracle-mower to recharge.

Let me know how that goes up there.

If anything like that passes in Commie-fornia I will drive over to Nevada with my car hauler, fill it with gas powered whatevers, and resell them here on the used market. The service places will be busy as well keeping all manner of illegal gas powered whatevers running.

@Robert M posted:

If anything like that passes in Commie-fornia I will drive over to Nevada with my car hauler, fill it with gas powered whatevers, and resell them here on the used market. The service places will be busy as well keeping all manner of illegal gas powered whatevers running.

I can envisage prohibition-era stills popping up to produce pappy's patented go-juice unless reasonable alternatives hit the market. And there will be a market and money to be made...

@Robert M posted:

If anything like that passes in Commie-fornia I will drive over to Nevada with my car hauler, fill it with gas powered whatevers, and resell them here on the used market. The service places will be busy as well keeping all manner of illegal gas powered whatevers running.

Robert, my friend - you might want to tune up that car hauler and start making some contacts in Nevada.

From the CARB 12/9/21 Press Release on their website:

"SACRAMENTO – The California Air Resources Board today approved a measure that will require most newly manufactured small off-road engines such as those found in leaf blowers, lawn mowers and other equipment be zero emission starting in 2024. Portable generators, including those in recreational vehicles, would be required to meet more stringent standards in 2024 and meet zero-emission standards starting in 2028.

The new requirement, an amendment to CARB’s existing small off-road engine regulations first adopted in 1990, applies to manufacturers and will impact new equipment (Model Year 2024 and later) only. Californians can continue to operate their current CARB-compliant gasoline-powered SORE equipment; there will be no “ban” on using older models or used equipment purchased in the future. Older models on store shelves can also be purchased even if they are gasoline-powered.

Today’s move by CARB aligns with Governor Gavin Newsom’s Executive Order signed in September 2020 that moves the state closer to a zero-emission future. It also provides significant emissions reductions of smog-forming pollution needed for California to achieve stringent federal air quality standards in the future.

“Today’s action by the Board addresses these small but highly polluting engines. It is a significant step towards improving air quality in the state, and will definitely help us meet stringent federal air quality standards,” said CARB Chair Liane Randolph. “It will also essentially eliminate exposure to harmful fumes for equipment operators and anyone nearby.”

Despite their small size, these engines are highly polluting. The volume of smog-forming emissions from this type of equipment has surpassed emissions from light-duty passenger cars and is projected to be nearly twice those of passenger cars by 2031. Today, a commercial operator using one backpack leaf blower for one hour generates the same smog-forming emissions as a car driving 1100 miles.  These regulations will reduce emissions of smog-forming emissions by 72 tons per day.

The amended regulation will set SORE emission standards to zero in two phases:

  • First, for model year (MY) 2024 and all subsequent model years, emission standards will be zero. These emission standards of zero will apply to engines used in all equipment types produced for sale in California, except generators and large pressure washers. Emission standards for generators and large pressure washers will be more stringent than the existing standards by 40-90 percent starting in MY 2024, but not zero.
  • The second phase will be implemented starting in MY 2028, when the emission standards for generators and large pressure washers will be zero.

Zero-emission equipment in the SORE sector is widely available. It is quieter, cleaner, has less vibration, and has greatly improved over the last few years. Since 2018, CARB has operated the Zero-Emission Equipment Roadshow, which loans the equipment free of cost for 3 weeks to municipalities and other entities that express interest. There are approximately fifty pieces of professional equipment from eight manufacturers included in the Roadshow. The Roadshow has been to 25 organizations throughout the state.  Many users who may have complained about early models have become enthusiastic supporters (examples include the Los Angeles Unified School District, UC Irvine, Santa Barbara Parks and Rec, Capitol Park in Sacramento, and more).

Incentive funds will be available to commercial purchasers of new zero-emission equipment through CARB's Clean Off-Road Equipment Voucher Incentive Project (CORE), which was created to accelerate deployment of cleaner off-road technologies. The Legislature has allocated $30 million to be dedicated to sole proprietors and other small landscaping businesses in California to help them purchase zero-emission small off-road equipment, including leaf blowers, lawn mowers and string trimmers."

Insanity is what it is. Elitist, utopian, idiotic nonsense.

As far as zero-emissions generators - one can only assume that Governor Newsom is happy to announce that you'll need to replace the $500 generator you bought down at Home Depot with a $40,000 solar array and Tesla powerwall battery backup system in the event that your B&S gross-polluter throws a rod or something.

The planet is saved!

Last edited by Stan Galat
@Stan Galat posted:

Insanity is what it is. Elitist, utopian, idiotic nonsense.

As far as zero-emissions generators - one can only assume that Governor Newsom is happy to announce that you'll need to replace the $500 generator you bougth down at Home Depot with a $25,000 solar array and battery backup system in the event that your B&S gross-polluter throws a rod or something.

The planet is saved!

I suspect the truth is a little less extreme. Perhaps you were using hyperbole to express your opinion (except the part about the planet being saved)?

But seriously, Stan, it kinda sounds like what you're saying is "If I can't figure it out, then no one else can."

I don't buy that for me (and I have a healthy respect for me) and I'm not sure we have the kind of expertise (elitist, idiotic or otherwise) on this particular forum to definitively claim that all of this this isn't a good idea.

Like you, I'm scratching my head on how you might pull off the power generator in Phase II. It seems like they're pretty confident about the Phase I stuff based on the reactions they're getting from the Road Shows.

Because I can't solve the generator problem for them doesn't mean it won't get solved. Or maybe it won't...

We got opinions for sure, but let's not get carried away with predicting the future.

Here is an exact quote from a New York Times editorial posted on page 6, on Oct 9th, 1903:

“Hence, if it requires, say, a thousand years to fit for easy flight a bird which started with rudimentary wings, or ten thousand for one with started with no wings at all and had to sprout them ab initio, it might be assumed that the flying machine which will really fly might be evolved by the combined and continuous efforts of mathematicians and mechanicians in from one million to ten million years — provided, of course, we can meanwhile eliminate such little drawbacks and embarrassments as the existing relation between weight and strength in inorganic materials.”

The Wright brothers first flew on December 17, 1903.

.

I think you're getting overly agitated about this, Stan.

VW did some pioneering work a few years ago in effectively gaming the system, and I think this is the key to moving forward.

VW's engineering wasn't faulty. The problem was that they weren't quite thorough enough and got caught. Increasingly, the corporate world is teaching us that the only criminals are those who mess up and are found guilty. If you don't get caught, you're a hero. For 30 years, Bernie Madoff was a genius and lauded hero. He just got careless.

The guv's recent proclamation is a subtle signal that the future will be one of several parallel alternative realities.

There will be the universe of proclaimed reality and the somewhat dirtier physical reality that we actually live and drive to work in. Those of us brought up within a restrictive system of having to be logically consistent and somehow 'honest' will have trouble understanding the new order.

Once you're freed of the need to be 'honest' or 'responsible' or logically consistent (whatever that means) there are no limits to what you can claim to have achieved.

Some of our most successful politicians are already skilled in this 'alternative realities' approach to life and I've learned a lot about the future by studying how they think.

Throw off your chains of old-school logic and morality, Stan, and join us in the bright, shiny world of tomorrow.

.

@Robert M posted:

Regardless of what type of generator I put in my RV, gas or electric, it will be either powered by fuel and emit emissions or it will be plugged in at my home and recharged using electricity by a power plant that generates emissions.

Like I said, I'm not sure about how the Phase II goals (generators and big power washers) would be accomplished, and maybe they won't. The purported uptake of the Phase I tools mentioned in Stan's post makes me think they are much more likely to work out than the Phase II things.

The other point made in Stan's post, "a commercial operator using one backpack leaf blower for one hour generates the same smog-forming emissions as a car driving 1100 miles." makes me think that even if the Phase I tools are all charged by fossil fuel power plant electricity, it's going to produce much less smog, etc than a huge number of poorly tuned backpack engines.

Again, I'm not a frothing at the mouth environmentalist (I love my old air-cooled speedster). I don't think frothing at the mouth on either side of arguments really adds any light to questions. I also don't mind teasing and banter, but I do get annoyed when folks are just looking for an echo chamber.

But seriously, Stan, it kinda sounds like what you're saying is "If I can't figure it out, then no one else can."

I don't buy that for me (and I have a healthy respect for me) and I'm not sure we have the kind of expertise (elitist, idiotic or otherwise) on this particular forum to definitively claim that all of this this isn't a good idea.

Like you, I'm scratching my head on how you might pull off the power generator in Phase II. It seems like they're pretty confident about the Phase I stuff based on the reactions they're getting from the Road Shows.

Because I can't solve the generator problem for them doesn't mean it won't get solved. Or maybe it won't...

We got opinions for sure, but let's not get carried away with predicting the future.

I don't know, Mike - I'm pretty confident we're not going to have a "zero-emission portable generator" ready to go in 5-1/2 years. I could be wrong, but I'm not. I'll buy you a steak dinner at the place of your choosing if there is a "zero-emission portable generator" commercially available by 2028.

We play the cards we've got, not the cards we wish we had or hope to have. Every time we have this discussion, you and I come to the same sticking point - you talk about rockets, and about the Wright Brothers, and about how technology has always saved the day and I operate in with the tools I have in front of me. It's not that you and I can't solve it. It's that it's breathtakingly arrogant (and yes, "elitist, Utopian, idiotic nonsense") to say, "we'll have a perpetual-motion Mr. Fusion generator in 6 years".

The grid is precarious, and getting more so. Wealthy white people can afford solar arrays and battery walls and 26+ hp generators. Telling the rest of the world that they can eat cake when a rolling blackout takes out their power for a week in the middle of a fire seems... elitist.

As for our sticking point - it's true that technology has accomplished some amazing things. But we hadn't outlawed hot air balloon travel in 1900 because we were just sure some bicycle mechanic was going to invent the airplane soon, and we didn't kill all the scribes in 1400 because the Gutenberg press was imminent. The inventions and discoveries came first, and the old ways and technologies were laid aside because they were obsolete. To my knowledge, the process has never worked in reverse.

For every rocket to the moon, there have been at least an equal amount of times when the science of the time didn't save the day - when the breakthrough being counted on just never came. Alchemy was "science" for at least 1000 years. Ponce de Leon was sure he'd find the fountain of youth. Bloodletting was medicine. The vaccines were going to "beat Covid".

Smart people working really hard fail all the time. I fail all the time. Thinking we can solve any problem within a legislated timeframe if we just put enough intellectual horsepower to the task is hubris of the highest order. This is our fundamental point of disagreement.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be trying. I'm saying that politicians mandating what science will look like in a certain timeframe ignores everything I've seen in my lifetime.

So yeah, "elitist, Utopian, idiotic nonsense" is strong language, but it's not hyperbole - at least to my way of looking at it.

Your mileage may vary.

Last edited by Stan Galat

The key, dear friends, is don’t buy NEW. Maintain the dirty old ICE engines in our toy cars along with all the 4 stroke Briggs & Stratton powered lawnmowers and delightfully obnoxious 2 stroke leaf blowers!

Or…hold hands and sing “Kumbaya” while harnessing the power of the sun (with panels that can’t be recycled and will decay for decades in a landfill).

What is old is new again.

We certainly have a lot of force fed ideology from our supreme emperors and I genuinely believe as humans we can create and come up with some really great stuff, well at least just compare the patents per country to start.

Having said this, all the rest of the hyperbole is who gets to control.  We see the new E-Barons via fiat wanting to take over from the old oil barons.  Ideology is first and foremost sold as if the science is settled but, when they add millions of years to any explanation, to me, with no witnesses present, then it is just as much a faith walk as anything else.  A real Random Control Trial with a very large sample size is the only proof that an experiment is truthful and reproducible.  All the rest are just correlations.  Take a jump if you want but give me liberty to choose otherwise or let the market decide. Seems most times the one who controls the mass, by being the best ideology salesman wins the day for his political ideology, never mind given the ability to go deep into other peoples pockets.

Last edited by IaM-Ray
@Robert M posted:

If anything like that passes in Commie-fornia I will drive over to Nevada with my car hauler, fill it with gas powered whatevers, and resell them here on the used market. The service places will be busy as well keeping all manner of illegal gas powered whatevers running.

It'll be just like with abortions.

Coming soon to a future near you....

Last edited by DannyP

I still agree with my man Stan on this small engine/CARB thing.

You can't WILL or legislate technology into existence that doesn't exist yet.

I might have some magic beanstalk beans in 5.5 years as well...it's the same as plugging everything into the "magic grid" where power just materializes out of thin air.

Stan isn't wrong.

Y'all go stick your heads in the sand and pretend that pain in your back end ISN'T the government's winkie.

Last edited by DannyP
@DannyP posted:

I still agree with my man Stan on this small engine/CARB thing.



I remind everyone that the California Air Resources Board (CARB) was created in 1967 under Gov. Ronald Reagan, that "elitist, Utopian, idiotic" politician who mandated to the auto companies what science would look like in a certain timeframe (and of course they said it was impossible, but...).

Here's the obligatory picture of Los Angeles smog before the idiotic Gov. Reagan had CARB put the auto pollution regs in place. Maybe we could learn a little about the global impact of pollution from Gov. Reagan, Exxon, and BP scientists.LA Smog

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Speaking of Ronnie, he said (some years after creating the CARB by combining the already existing Bureau of Air Sanitation and Motor Vehicle Pollution Control Board into one all-powerful entity),

“No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth”

I'm not sure if he was talking about what he had wrought, but CARB has nearly limitless power to mandate whatever they want, without the usual checks and balances imposed on democratic governments. It is the very embodiment of what Mr. Ragan was talking about.

Last edited by Stan Galat

Reading this thread has been entertaining this morning while having my coffee. NOT.

I shouldn’t have messed with a good thing, my daily hit of Coffee with Scott Adams. Threads like this remind me why I have largely unplugged from both social and mass media. Between the Branch Covidians, the Wokies, and the straight up assholes all vying for universal adoption of their ideologies, it has materially degraded what should be an interesting and stimulating exchange of ideas and experience.

Very few here would appreciate my opinions on most topics, which is absolutely fine by me because I won’t offer them in the 1st place. I keep those to myself unless I’m asked to divulge them. Perhaps a suggestion however. When someone on a car forum asks a question or comments regarding a grade of gasoline, maybe it would be best to stick to the topic for the sake of audience who may be listening to the conversation, thinking it’s a conversation about gas and how it may affect our cars.

Think of it as a common courtesy, sort of liking not farting in a crowded elevator.

Last edited by Ron Mullis

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