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Hello my friendly experts!  It has been quite a while.  Busy is an understatement. However, I have completed the build on my CB Performance 1776 with dual webers and the fancy dizzy along with new sheetmetal and the Panchito heads.  It runs like a roadrunner chased by Wiley E. Coyote!   

So, here is my question.... I installed 1-1/2 " J tubes and an EMPI stainless muffler.  The muffler looks great but sounds like a Harley with straight pipes!  Not my style at all.  Can I install a stock muffler with out doing damage or losing too much HP? Or is there and alternative set up that looks original but allows better flow? 

I did search the forum, but none of the responses were exactly my situation.  Your thoughts, ideas and comments are always welcome. Thanks in advance!

Jim Lanz

Speedster Jim, Buffalo NY

Original Post

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Can I install a stock muffler with out doing damage or losing too much HP?

No.

Or is there and alternative set up that looks original but allows better flow?

Yes.

Check out the Vintage Speed website.

Vintage Speed

You sound like a perfect candidate for an SS143 in either 38 mm (1-1/2") or 43 mm (1-5/8"). Alternatively, perhaps a 130 mm Super Flow (assuming you shut it down at 5500 RPM).

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  • Vintage Speed

At the very least you'll be limiting power output and may even cause the engine to run hot.  For the best drivability the exhaust must be matched to the carbs/heads and powerband.  With stock valve heads a 1 3/8" (optimal for best bottom end/lower midrange power) or 1 1/2" (if you really like to feel the top end! but drivability and hence mileage will suffer a wee bit) will be best.  With big valve (40x35 mm) heads 1 1/2" primaries are the best choice.  I would wager that a 1 5/8" system is too big unless the engine makes power to 7500 or 8,000 rpm. What cam/rocker combo is in it?  And I don't offhand know what this translates to with the Vintage Speed exhausts Stan's talking about.  Al

Stan & alb: Thanks so much. This is the motor as listed by CB.  110 HP.  So, it looks like the, "Sporty"  130mm sport 38mm should do it per Stan's recomendation.  I will look into that one. I wish they published average decibel readings at idle and various RPM's. That data would be pertinant to this decision.... 

   Thanks again!   Jim

CB Perf Builders Choice.

  • 1180 - 105 HP 1776cc Builders Choice Engine Kit includes:
  • 2241 - Cam Only T-1
  • 043-101-003.3 - Universal AS41 Engine Case (fits Type-1 & Type-2)
  • 1289 - Super Race Rods (VW rod journal) 5.400" (set of 4)
  • 1859 - Maxi 30 Full Flow Oil Pump
  • 1278 - CB High Performance Case Kit
  • 1537 - 28mm Ultralight Lifters (set of 8)
  • 1941 - Rear Main Seal - 13, 15, & 1600cc
  • 1804 - Main BearingsS STD
  • 1865 - Rod Bearings T/1 STD
  • 1525 - Eagle Cam Gear
  • 1565 - Racing Push Rod Tubes (set of 8)
  • 1672 - Panchito 044 (40 x 35.5) 90.5/92 Bore (two heads) w/ Dual Hi Rev Valve Springs
  • 1770 - Thin Line Oil Sump - 1 1/2 qt.
  • 1628 - Chromoly Push Rods - blank end (.035")
  • 1052 - Super Big Bore Kit, 90.5 x 69mm
  • 1030 True-Arc Wrist Pin Locks (set of 8)
  • 1999 - 8mm Deflector Plates - fits 13, 15, & 1600cc (set of 2)
  • 1904 - Case Washer Set
  • 1946 - Posi-Seal Cam Plug
  • 1105 - 69mm 4140 Forged Chromoly Crank
  • 1303 - Forged Chromoly Lightweight Flywheel - 200mm (o-ring seal)
  • 1360 - Racing Gland Nut with washer
  • 1229 - 8mm Chromoly Head Stud Kit - Dual Port
  • 1849 - Racing Camshaft Bearing Set
  • 1918 - Crankshaft Gear Assembly Kit w/Racer Spacer
  • 1692 - CB Super Stock 1.25:1 Ratio - High Lift (Rocker Arms Only)
  • 1643 - High Performance Rocker Shafts
  • 1644 - Rocker Arm Spacers - fits 1.1:1 and 1.25:1 High Performance Rocker Shafts
  • 1523 - Swivel Feet - Stock or 1.25 VW Rockers (set of 8)
  • 1665 - Valve Adjusting Nuts - 8mm (set of 8)
  • 1536 - Rocker Arm Block Shims (.060) (set of 4)
  • 1362 - End Play Shim Kit
  • 1908 - Case Lock Nut Kit
  • 1277 - Engine Case Bolts (set of 3)
  • 1973 - Gasket Set - 13, 15, & 1600cc Dual & Single Port Engines
  • LABOR-MC-BB - Machine Case - Big Bore
  • LABOR-FLOW - Full Flow Case
  • HP is rated using Dual 40mm IDF Carbs, 1 1/2" Merged Header. Compression is set at 8:1 using listed parts in kit. Mid Grade fuel is required for this kit.

Thanks again to all of you!  Alb, Stan and Sacto, I ordered the SS143 with 130mm sport 38mm from vintage speed.  They have a great site with plenty of video & audio and specs. And, thanks to Sacto for the video he sent.  Right now I can drive it. However, it is not enjoyable at the sound level produced.  Why would EMPI make a nice looking stainless muffler that is missing the baffles and sound deadening materials inside?  So, annoying!

Ray in Canada!  Thanks for chiming in. So good to hear you are up there surviving this crazy year!  I hope the border opens soon and we can all have a real get-together again!

P.S. Since I have the new exhaust coming in, I may open the EMPI stainless and see if I can, "glass pack" it. Or, fill with #4 course stainless steel wool to see how that sounds. It may be used on another project. (1600cc in a Karman Ghia may be in my future.)

Jim

I would love a sound as quiet as Mitch's on my car (like, there is NO WAY I can ever hear the whine of the fan), but I'm wondering how much power I would lose going from a noisy Berg extractor to, essentially, a stock 356-style muffler and lots less noise.  I'm guessing 10% - 15% but only guessing and also guessing that the power loss would be at 5 grand and above.

Still, to ride without a constant drone would be really, really nice.  Given that, I suppose I would just complain about wind noise.....  

Jim, glad to hear from you and happy the motor is running well. Sounds like you made good choices, and this new exhaust should finish it off.

Thread drift/story:

At work we had a guy named Ed, who had stuff written about him on bathroom walls. Nothing bad, but he drilled through a wall into a customer's electric panel. He was shocked slightly but generally unharmed, company paid to fix said electric panel. Thereafter he was known as Sparky. But on the bathroom walls were written things like "Spark-Ed", basically any words that described him with an "ed" at the end. It was pretty funny to read as more and more were added LOL! Thanks for the comedic reminder, Jim.

Jim, I have passed on a lot of KGhia' for two reasons, they want stupid money for junk that is bondoed up to the ears ....

So no matter what you buy you have to have a full pan off restoration which would be needed unless of course someone has already done it.  I know @Rich Drewek has a beauty that he totally restored in red with full suspension upgrades that is awesome.  

You guys have me kind of salivating at the idea of a Ghia with subaru power on a new chassis and all kinds of upgrades.   I have done a bunch (4) VW body off restorations and have always made out pretty well when the sale time came. I like to be sure things are running and work like new or as close as I can come.  I do the interior and the body work. The engine work is always new with jugs/pistons and outward or more inside if needed.  The idea of a F/glass body is awesome!   So, who is game to start making molds? 

PS.  After a 10 mile drive on the new motor today, I found a small puddle in the garage and a little trail of oil dots up my driveway.  So, I cleaned up underneath to find the culprit and I could not locate an ongoing leak.  Starting the motor, crawling underneath and voila! The oil was dripping from the very near the pully.  I shined a light inside the compartment and saw a running drizzle coming out of the dipstick tube cover.  Ugh!  Now I started looking at the, "recommended" airbox plumbing and found that there was no vent from the airbox. I drilled the right carb cover and tapped it for a fitting. Ran a hose from the airbox to the carb cover and, no more leaks!  Wow, so simple but easy to overlook.

Jim

Very cool. It looks like an exact copy of the Berg unit. I just cleaned one up and re-installed it on a motor I just rebuilt.

I see you have crossbar linkage, as does the motor I just did. It's funny, Berg says this breather won't work with crossbar linkage. It does work, you just have to be careful and make sure there is no interference.

@DannyP posted:

Very cool. It looks like an exact copy of the Berg unit. I just cleaned one up and re-installed it on a motor I just rebuilt.

Looks like a Gen stand that’s been modified to take a 2 bolt 356/912-style oil filter as opposed to the screw in Type 1 type. I found one in a box of spare 912 tin right after I bought a CB angled filler to use with my shroud update.
8BB47B74-1846-44A7-BE56-9DAE039C42D3

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Last edited by dlearl476
@Impala posted:

Wow! That was quick; where did you order to get it in two days? I ordered mine from aircooled.net and it got to me all the way from the Vintage Speed shop in Taiwan in a couple of weeks. They are very well made units and you will be happy with it. It's quieter than people think; never as loud as the Tri-Mil units.

I ordered it directly from Vintage Speed. I got it in 2 weeks

@MarylandGuy posted:

@Sacto Mitch sounds really good with the superflow.  For my 1776 the sport will probably work best and is supposed to be a little quieter so I wanted to hear that too.



Hey, I've got a 1776 with the superflow sport. Here's a video from a year ago with my wife complaining about my driving. We like it. Conversations at 55 mph are fine, but it sounds sporty. We dumped the TriMil for this one.

Fuel Injection and Electronic Ignition for VW engines - Speeduino Style | SpeedsterOwners.com - 356 Speedsters, 550 Spyders, Replicas and more

Last edited by Michael Pickett

Thanks Michael.  Is yours the superflow or the sport from Vintage Speed?  Sounds really smooth.  Below is a link to a video of my 1776 dual carb so you can hear the sound after a cold start.  My issue may not actually be the exhaust.  The engine has this whistle/whine sound that really comes out too.  Could be from some of the upgrades we did, but not sure.

https://youtu.be/XcA3aS3VUTE

Let me know what you guys think.

Last edited by MarylandGuy

Thanks @Impala.  The engine definitely does still have some shake to it when idling.  I'm at about 500 miles.  Had adjusted the carbs mix and throttle at about 200 miles and thought we had it smoother, so maybe they just need to be dialed in more. 

So you think the sound fix is going to be the exhaust replacement?   My recording was close up with the lid open.   If I step away, that whine isn't as noticeable and it does seem to be more on the exhaust that is making the Harley sound. 

If you have a Facebook account you might try to see if aircooled.net still has the offer in which if you give them a like in their Facebook page you get 20 or 25% discount on an order. They are a Vintage Speed dealer. I was lucky to take advantage of that offer and basically the shipping was free when all was said and done. Got it delivered about two weeks after ordering.

Oops, I spoke to soon; you already ordered. I believe I posted this suggestion earlier in this thread. Hope you caught it. Either way you’re going to be pleased. It looks the part, is quieter than the Tri-Mil (although I don’t dislike their throaty sound) and will very possibly be the last exhaust system you buy.

Last edited by Impala

I did check the aircooled.net facebook page and didn't see any promotions for that for a few years.   I was able to get 5% off from the vintage speed facebook page, so all in the exhaust was $617 including the shipping fee.   

I plan to sell the Tri Mil to hopefully get a few bucks to offset the cost. 

I think its the right call to go right to the final solution rather than waste time testing cheaper options... now just need to count down to when it arrives.

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