Finally getting to my “Winter Projects”

PS: I can’t tell you how good it feels to make a little progress, however slight. Posting that post re: thinking my sports car days were rapidly dwindling was really a kick in the face.

David, how come you didn’t use press in studs?

Because I had threaded drums. TBH, I don’t I’ve ever seen press-in OEM drums.

I don’t know if they sell unthreaded drums,  but they are easy to drill out.  Years ago before I had all the equipment I have now, I did a set with a 1/2” hand drill.  Now I would just use my mill.

For the life of me, I will never understand 4 wheel drums on a Spyder. Unless of course they are the large aluminum drums from an actual 356.

I did a lot of work on a 2001 Vintage Spyder last summer. It had CSP front discs and 356 drums in the back. I had a similar setup on my first Spyder(VW rear drums) and it was woefully inadequate. I'm sure the 356 drums help a LOT.

If I build a Formula Vee, I'll be using discs all around, because you can today. There isn't any performance advantage versus drums on the track with an 800 pound car. There isn't a weight advantage either(minimum weight requirement). It's all about wear and adjustment on the track. FV has had 4 wheel drums since 1963 and has only recently allowed discs. The brake shoes are expensive too versus pads($500 an axle for good ones).

The way I drive my Spyder on the street discs are a much needed item. I can't even fathom 4 wheel drums.

I would think a looser interference fit of press-in studs is needed. Cast iron is very brittle, and I'd also machine the backside to allow a nice flat area to seat the stud. There is nothing wrong with the screw-in studs, just Loctite them into the drums(blue).

Good info above Danny..  Are you seriously going to get into FV ?.......Bruce

Danny, One of my mechanics is a Formula Junior champion. He's won the circuit several times.  He's got  a shop and a sponsors though.   Is Fomula Vee expensive to get into?

@Marty Grzynkowicz posted:

Danny, One of my mechanics is a Formula Junior champion. He's won the circuit several times.  He's got  a shop and a sponsors though.   Is Fomula Vee expensive to get into?

It's the least expensive class in open wheel racing. Make of that what you will.

@DannyP posted:

For the life of me, I will never understand 4 wheel drums on a Spyder.

Given that they work fine on 800 Gazillion VWs, I figured they’ll work fine on my 1500# Spyder. I don’t need a race car, or want one.

I want an original early Beck, which is what I have.

@dlearl476 posted:

Given that they work fine on 800 Gazillion VWs, I figured they’ll work fine on my 1500# Spyder. I don’t need a race car, or want one.

I want an original early Beck, which is what I have.

Yeah, they'll work fine until you heat soak them, and then they don't.  If you're saying that you'll NEVER test it's capabilities, then go for it.  The problem is that the first time you find it's limits could be your last.  Good luck with that...

Brake fade is scary. Imagine going 80 into a 30 mph MAX corner and the pedal hits the floor. Happened to me once in my Spyder, CSP solid discs and stock VW drums, this was on the street.

I can race my Spyder, but I don't. I just drive it pretty hard. The Cayman is a better fit for the track.

Imagine going 135mph before the braking zone into the Bus Stop at Watkins Glen and NOTHING(Cayman S new stock pads but fresh Dot4 and street tires). About 80mph is a decent entry speed, had to straight-line the bus-stop weaving through the cones.

This year I'll have slotted(not drilled) rotors and Hawk blues, along with my Falken Azenis(200 treadwear) tires on Panamera rims with spacers for wider track. Also, switched to Motul 600 brake fluid after that scary session, fade never happened again. This year I'll be more than ready.

Marty, you can do a season(7-10 weekends) of FV for about 10-15k. That includes gas to and from, entry fees, tires, maintenance, hotel, and food. Add the price of a car to get started, along with helmet, 3-layer suit, shoes, gloves, socks, arm restraints, HANS device and a fire system for your car. It ain't cheap, but compared to anything else, it is.

From what I've seen so far, the community is very family-like and helpful. Kind of like all of the SOC characters, just at the racetrack.

Bruce, I'm leaning that way. I've seen Vee guys race into their 80s. Which if you ask me, is the ultimate car-guy cool.

Sorry. Not buying it. How many VWs were made from the 50’s on? How many tales have you heard of people dying in their flaming wrecks because of “brake fade?”  

And I know brake fade. Try driving an (over) loaded Penske rental full of sound gear down I-70 into Denver. The trick is to slow down or stop when you first feel it, not wait until it’s possibly fatal.

Whatever dude, just don't try to follow me.

I doubt I could keep up with you.

eta: Since I turned 65, I’ve pretty much lost my “need for speed.”  Going fast just doesn’t thrill me like it used to.

@dlearl476 posted:

eta: Since I turned 65, I’ve pretty much lost my “need for speed.”  Going fast just doesn’t thrill me like it used to.

Great.

Another thing to look forward to.

Regarding 800 gazillion VWs and drum brakes - there were 800 gazillion Model Ts that used a band around a drum in the transmission to brake the rear wheels (the fronts were unencumbered by such frippery) but I'm probably not going to run that setup either

... but that's just me - your mileage may vary.

@DannyP posted:

you can do a season(7-10 weekends) of FV for about 10-15k. That includes gas to and from, entry fees, tires, maintenance, hotel, and food. Add the price of a car to get started, along with helmet, 3-layer suit, shoes, gloves, socks, arm restraints, HANS device and a fire system for your car. It ain't cheap, but compared to anything else, it is.

Is that compared to anything else, or any other form of open wheel racing?

Because if we're talking about ANYTHING anything, I can spend a month in Italy looking at art, eating delicious food in 16th century courtyards, and drinking gallons of prosecco for about $15K. At least I could before "The Recent Troubles" pretty much shut down international travel (I must be protected from the Delticron 4.0 Teenage Mutant Ninja Variant).

I could spend the month of February in Florida (like the governors of the hardcore lock-down states did), regardless of the current status of "The Recent Troubles".

I could go to Brevard and drive like a Hooligan for a week 3 different times. Alternatively, I could go to Brevard and drive like a Hooligan one time - get arrested and thrown in the clink, hire a decent lawyer, skip bail, and fight extradition. I could do this every single year.

I could buy three different 5-speed transaxles every year (which would continue the pattern), assuming I could find the parts (which I can't) or find somebody interested in building (which I also can't).

I could build and blow up a twin-plug time-bomb every year (assuming I could get the machine work done in 12 months, which I couldn't).

I could go to Hawk's Grove Inn in Manito, IL and buy all-you-can-eat wings and walleye for 24 people every Thursday night into eternity.

I could buy about 15 sheets of 3/4 OSB, recently revalued by "7% inflation".

Or I could just keep buying food and gas, paying the taxes, living out my construction fanboy fantasies, and continue slogging away.

That's what I'll probably do

... that, or go to Brevard and get arrested.

Wow, that's quite a rant there. Is it past your bedtime, Dear Leader?

I should have said compared to any other form of actual wheel to wheel racing.

I apologize for that. But hey, you do you. I want to go racing, if that's OK.

Just havin' fun, Mr. @DannyP. Racing is expensive. I'll come and watch you do it.

I may at some point end up at Nelson Ledges or Pitt Race. They might be do-able for you. I could always use a good man in the pits!

@DannyP posted:

I may at some point end up at Nelson Ledges or Pitt Race. They might be do-able for you. I could always use a good man in the pits!

Gimme' the dates. That sounds like a blast.

.

@dlearl476 posted:

.

...Since I turned 65, I’ve pretty much lost my “need for speed.”  Going fast just doesn’t thrill me like it used to...

I like to tell myself I'm not turning into that wrinkly gent in the straw skimmer hunched over the wheel and squinting out the windscreen, with only foggy notions of where the road ahead might lie.

But, slowly, I guess that could be happening to me.

Whatever the reason, this is the first sporting machine I've owned in which I'm not crawl-the-walls impatient if the way forward is blocked by one of those gents - under the speed limit and still lighting the brake lights at every corner. These days, I just back off, drop down a gear, and enjoy the view or the weather.

Some of us obsess about infusing modern performance into our ancient cars. I can still have some fun in finding its modest limits and staying close to them as long as possible. With my swing axles, there's a narrow space between wheels sliding and wheels tucking that's a game of its own to explore.

Inevitably, there's the hoonigan in the lowered Type R or the fart-canned M3 suddenly in my mirror, but I no longer take up the challenge. I wait for the next corner and sometimes surprise them by not braking at all and using the gearbox to control speed, get the weight shifted aft, and powering through with a hint of a drift. It's amazing how often they're 10 car lengths back coming out. A lot of them haven't yet discovered there are other controls in a car that can help forward progress besides the go pedal.

Like Dave, going fast doesn't thrill me like it used to. Life is short.

And shorter every day.

.

Settle down, boys, or we're gonna have to start talking about pie AGAIN!

@dlearl476- Yeah, there were a gazillion Beetles out there running around on drums only, but that's a little out of context- it was a budget commuter car which most people knew enough to drive within it's operating parameters, where as we're talking about pushing the envelope a little while trying to keep it safe (and us alive!).  VW must have recognized the public's love for sporty driving, as Karmann Ghias eventually got front discs (as did Type 3's and 4's).  If you're comfortable with drums all around, you do you and the rest of us will do what we're comfortable with.  As Uncle Stan says, it's a big tent with room for us all (or something like that).

@Sacto Mitch posted:

.I like to tell myself I'm not turning into that wrinkly gent in the straw skimmer hunched over the wheel and squinting out the windscreen, with only foggy notions of where the road ahead might lie.

But, slowly, I guess that could be happening to me.

Whatever the reason, this is the first sporting machine I've owned in which I'm not crawl-the-walls impatient if the way forward is blocked by one of those gents - under the speed limit and still lighting the brake lights at every corner. These days, I just back off, drop down a gear, and enjoy the view or the weather.

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

I'm a go to Brevard and git me arrested! Carlos said he'd bring me BBQ.

@Sacto Mitch posted:

.

I like to tell myself I'm not turning into that wrinkly gent in the straw skimmer hunched over the wheel and squinting out the windscreen, with only foggy notions of where the road ahead might lie.

But, slowly, I guess that could be happening to me.

Whatever the reason, this is the first sporting machine I've owned in which I'm not crawl-the-walls impatient if the way forward is blocked by one of those gents - under the speed limit and still lighting the brake lights at every corner. These days, I just back off, drop down a gear, and enjoy the view or the weather.

Some of us obsess about infusing modern performance into our ancient cars. I can still have some fun in finding its modest limits and staying close to them as long as possible. With my swing axles, there's a narrow space between wheels sliding and wheels tucking that's a game of its own to explore.

Inevitably, there's the hoonigan in the lowered Type R or the fart-canned M3 suddenly in my mirror, but I no longer take up the challenge. I wait for the next corner and sometimes surprise them by not braking at all and using the gearbox to control speed, get the weight shifted aft, and powering through with a hint of a drift. It's amazing how often they're 10 car lengths back coming out. A lot of them haven't yet discovered there are other controls in a car that can help forward progress besides the go pedal.

Like Dave, going fast doesn't thrill me like it used to. Life is short.

And shorter every day.

.

That's exactly where I am at this point. I don't think it is going gently into that good night, it's more about the things that used to bother or drive me don't have as strong a hold as they used to.

Like I said earlier, @MusbJim has got it going on. Enjoying life without being at war with it has it's benefits!

.

Stan's poet left for parts unknown before he was 40.

He was a young man giving advice to men growing older.

All things considered, I'd rather survive the journey and be able to leave notes about how it went.

.

.

@Stan Galat posted:

Great.

Another thing to look forward to.

Regarding 800 gazillion VWs and drum brakes - there were 800 gazillion Model Ts that used a band around a drum in the transmission to brake the rear wheels (the fronts were unencumbered by such frippery) but I'm probably not going to run that setup either

... but that's just me - your mileage may vary.

That right there cracked me up! No front brakes and band brakes: sounds like a go-kart from when I was a kid!

It just occurred to me that @dlearl476 attempted to put EMPI discs on the front of his Spyder. Some fitment issue happened, and now drums are the way to go?

Sounds fishy to me. Also sounds like the same thing when we were talking about Sportrac5 tires and David was advocating SNOW tires year round on a sports car.

Huh?

@DannyP posted:

That right there cracked me up! No front brakes and band brakes: sounds like a go-kart from when I was a kid!

Band brake, that was a high end Kart! A buddy had one with scrub brakes, as in a flat piece of steel scrubbed against a tire.

My "Go Cart'\" had steel rear wheels driven by 2 stroke Maytag  washing machine engine .  My shoe soles were the brakes !  Never could burn rubber but slung a lot of sparks around !.......Bruce

early teens go cart made of plywood, carriage bolts,old 5hp Briggs motor,steer with feet on the 2x4 front axle, no brakes except to pull the choke open via some ropes/pulley

@DannyP posted:

It just occurred to me that @dlearl476 attempted to put EMPI discs on the front of his Spyder. Some fitment issue happened, and now drums are the way to go?

Sounds fishy to me. Also sounds like the same thing when we were talking about Sportrac5 tires and David was advocating SNOW tires year round on a sports car.

Huh?

CB brakes. But yeah. And I’m not saying they’re “the (only) way to go.” I’m saying they’ll be perfectly fine, for me, given the only options for my full width beam are a choice between 40# cast iron discs and hubs or $1000+ discs like yours from airkewld.

The only problem is the 4-piston Airkewld discs I have are 3/4" or 7/8" wider. Per side.

I had tire/fender rubbing problems on my first car. The second car has a 2" narrowed beam, now everything is rosy.

I'm pretty sure either the single or dual-piston Airkewld brakes are not as wide as the 4-piston, but I can't remember which ones.

I forgot you got the CB brakes, I thought they were the EMPI/SoCal barbells.

Back in 1962, I had a "Velocity" Kart, live rear axle with a 45hp McCulloch 2-stroke engine.  The live axle had a single (mechanical) disk brake pulled by a rod from the brake pedal.  This is me at 12 or 13 years old.

I can't find a photo, but my last Kart (a "Raptor" in 1965) had dual Power Products 65hp 2-stroke engines on a similar live axle rear.  That cart could lay solid 2-wheel rubber for 60-80 feet from the line.  Sold that one after one racing season to buy my Greeves 6-day bike.  My Mom thought Kart racing was too dangerous so we didn't talk much about crashing the trials bikes in the woods.  

@DannyP posted:

The only problem is the 4-piston Airkewld discs I have are 3/4" or 7/8" wider. Per side.

I had tire/fender rubbing problems on my first car. The second car has a 2" narrowed beam, now everything is rosy.

I'm pretty sure either the single or dual-piston Airkewld brakes are not as wide as the 4-piston, but I can't remember which ones.

I forgot you got the CB brakes, I thought they were the EMPI/SoCal barbells.

No, John sold me the CB discs because of the weight issue, forgetting that my prime concern was zero offset. Neither on his website or in any of our (numerous) conversations did he mention they were the CB discs with 7/8” offset. Thanks to you I figured it out before I tried to install them.

It’s crazy, there are tons of zero offset drop link kits out there. So few choices with OEM links.

This was my hand built independent suspension 100 hp Yamaha Virago powered dirt track "Ciller Kart"

@Gordon Nichols posted:

Back in 1962, I had a "Velocity" Kart, live rear axle with a 45hp McCulloch 2-stroke engine.  The live axle had a single (mechanical) disk brake pulled by a rod from the brake pedal.

My brother had a Macoullough  R-1 that had the same. Boy was that metal on metal sound grating.

I miss my go cart. 

Marty........You just have a little bigger one now !.......Bruce

Pinterest just sent me this one:

@aircooled posted:

Marty........You just have a little bigger one now !.......Bruce

Ain’t that the truth? The motorcycle/go kart DNA is strong in a Spyder.

After posting the photo of Alfred I had the thought that many of the younger members of the group may not know who he is>

@dlearl476 posted:

Sorry. Not buying it. How many VWs were made from the 50’s on? How many tales have you heard of people dying in their flaming wrecks because of “brake fade?”                                       

And I know brake fade. Try driving an (over) loaded Penske rental full of sound gear down I-70 into Denver. The trick is to slow down or stop when you first feel it, not wait until it’s possibly fatal.

Try a full panic stop from 75 mph and let us know how it goes. I know what happens in a Beetle- at 35 mph or so the brakes are gone.  I'm wondering if the slight weight difference will allow you to come to a complete stop.  If you're thinking this scenario isn't realistic, imagine coming to the top of the hill on a highway and just over the crest there's a semi laying across the road and cars everywhere.  Will you stop in time or end up in the pile?

Or, try a panic stop in a Vintage Speedster from 80 to 0 with disc fronts and drum rear. Ask Jack Crosby about it, he'll tell you almost crashed, and now has 4 wheel discs because of it.

Michael, I knew that was Alfred Hitchcock.

I feel a little bit bad for those who don't know Alfred and his work. He was one of a kind.

@DannyP posted:

Sounds fishy to me. Also sounds like the same thing when we were talking about Sportrac5 tires and David was advocating SNOW tires year round on a sports car.

Huh?

Yeah. Because running tires with a softer compound and better anti-hydroplaning characteristics is such a dumb idea. What was I thinking?

You guys crack me up. You sound like a bunch of old women. It’s surprising you can work up the courage to drive a plastic car with zero crash protection at all.

Hear, hear, David!

Drive whatever tires you want and don’t be intimidated.

Snow tires wouldn’t be my first choice, or my second, but I will defend to the death your right to drive them if that’s what you want.

Well OK, on second thought, probably not to the death, but I would definitely feign indignation and post some blustery stuff online under a screen name.

But I am curious about the snow tires. Is this something you’ve always done? You CAN find tires that are good in the rain, have soft compounds (my Conti’s are 280) are quieter and have better grip than snows for not too much bread. And all without joining the Sportrac cult (not that there’s anything wrong with that).

You wouldn’t be messin’ with us, would you?

@dlearl476 posted:

Yeah. Because running tires with a softer compound and better anti-hydroplaning characteristics is such a dumb idea. What was I thinking?

You guys crack me up. You sound like a bunch of old women. It’s surprising you can work up the courage to drive a plastic car with zero crash protection at all.

I didn't realize you were a tire designer/engineer.

Hey David, "I like you. You make me laugh." The quote is from the movie "Gung Ho" starring Michael Keaton. It was said with a totally straight face by a Japanese auto exec to Mr. Keaton's character.

Well, this "old woman" likes to drive hard. And I HAVE crashed my clown car and made it to the other side. So, whatever floats your drum-braked snow tires, dude.

@Sacto Mitch posted:

But I am curious about the snow tires. Is this something you’ve always done?
You wouldn’t be messin’ with us, would you?

Not something I’ve always done. I discovered it quite by accident when I procrastinated taking the winter Contis off my Smart. (They were pretty worn, and I knew they wouldn’t work for another winter) I was amazed at how well they handled on hot pavement.

That fall a fellow Smart owner was raving about Quadtracs so I   replaced the  Contis with them, and they’re head and shoulders better than both the summer and winter Contis.

Normally it would be dumb to run winter compounds in the summer because they’d wear too quickly, but I put so few miles on the Spyder it doesn’t really matter. They’ll dry crack before I ever wear them out.

And no, in the famous words of a former coach, “I wouldn’t sh*t you, you’re my favorite turds.”

And don’t get me wrong, if Sportracs were readily available I’d be rocking them in a heartbeat. But they’re not, so I don’t.

Those Quatracs are all season with a slight lean to snow.

I was considering them as my all season tire when my Sportracs are stacked in the corner.

I think they have a 400 tread wear. Sounds sticker than my 7 year old Pirellis at 740.

7-FREAKIN'-40!!!  Are they made of concrete?

@Carlos G posted:

Those Quatracs are all season with a slight lean to snow.

I was considering them as my all season tire when my Sportracs are stacked in the corner.

I think they have a 400 tread wear. Sounds sticker than my 7 year old Pirellis at 740.

Yes, they are. Odds are low I’ll ever be canyon cruising in the winter, but they passed a law here a couple of years ago that required chains or “snowflake” designated tires in the canyons 11/1-3/31. Not a stand-alone tickets, but if you require any E service and you don’t have them it’s a $199 ticket.

I’ve been a Vredestein fan since before Sprints were “classic.” When my buddy told me about the Quatrac, I couldn’t wear my Coni winter Contacs out fast enough.

If they’re half the improvement on the Spyder they were on the Smart, I’ll be ecstatic. It’s a shame they aren’t as cheap as the Sportracs, oh well. Maybe when I wear my current tires out in a couple more seasons,  they’ll have the Sportrac 6.

Yeah, I know how you feel.  I have a track day scheduled in June with the Coupe and I'm a little nervous about wearing the SportTrac 5s I have.  I hope some equivalent replacements are available before too long.

@Lane Anderson posted:

Yeah, I know how you feel.  I have a track day scheduled in June with the Coupe and I'm a little nervous about wearing the SportTrac 5s I have.  I hope some equivalent replacements are available before too long.

I don’t know what size you’re running, but Tire Rack still lists 185/65-R15 Sportrac. Whether they have them in stock, who knows?

Then again, if I owned that hot rod, I’d probably have a spare set of wheels with Hoosier slicks on ‘em for track days.

I’m running 195s, which seem to be unobtainium.

@Lane Anderson posted:

I’m running 195s, which seem to be unobtainium.

Yep. I keep waiting for a big announcement. I can’t believe Vredestein doesn’t have a replacement in the works. From what Paul’s guy in Florida told me, they are hugely popular tire for classic sports cars in Europe.

I’d also be down with an expanded Sprint Classic line.

@Lane Anderson posted:

I’m running 195s, which seem to be unobtainium.

Well, well, well. Woulda lookie here:

https://www.vredestein.com/cla...ucts/1746-SPRINT%2B/

dlear476........Hoosier's ! Ha !  maybe I'll install a Suby rear axle up front in my Spyder to make it total Suby 4 wheel drive and slam on 4 Hoosier's ! That would be a Hoot !!  I wonder what Greg would say if I went down to see him and suggested that.  He'd probably throw me out after the hoops he went thru trying to get me a now front suspension.......Bruce

@dlearl476 posted:

Well, well, well. Woulda lookie here:

https://www.vredestein.com/cla...ucts/1746-SPRINT%2B/

Veeeery interesting.  I wonder if they have the cool Giugaro stuff on the sidewall.  I'm sure that adds a lot of performance.

Got out for a nice drive today. Went over to Rick’s to see his new RSK and Spyder.  Both very nice. He’s half-way through switching his 4 bolt discs to Wide 5 on the Spyder. Hit a snag because the wrong bearings came with his front discs.

Anyway, with his and his nephews help, we figured out what’s bottoming out. Its the KYBs. So I guess getting adjustable rear spring plates and a camber compensator just bumped up the list a couple of spots. I don’t really want to get in there to raise it, then do it again when I swap the plates.