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Hi-dee-ho folks, I need some sage advice.  Or even a few raspberries, if that suits you. Item 1: I recently retired the 15 year old Mazda 6.  A V6 5 speed that was a pretty nice sporty 4-door.  125K mi, and the list of things it was needing was getting too long, and the ~$2500 estimate for a clutch job, after already dropping >$2K on new radiator and main engine seal, to name just two recent cat's-astrophes, sorta sent me over the edge.  Soooo . . . I dithered a little and shopped and ended up with a Honda Accord Sport 2.0T, 6 spd.  Pretty cool ride; seems a bit, but not much, bigger than the Mazda.  Main feature: it's new and does not need a clutch job.  Also looks kinda cool, and has depths of digital control and entertainment and communications capabilities I may never fully grasp. The two liter 4 banger is direct injected and turbo charged to about 20psi, they say.  Turns about the same power/torque as the old V6: 250 hp, good flat torque curve.  I have had it for a little more than one day, 100+ mi.  Pictures to follow.  Item 2: I want to add a hitch, like I had on the Mazda, to tow my 5x8 trailer as situations demand, and the Speedster.  Honda says max towing weight should not exceed 1,000 lbs.  Believe Speedy is ~1800. Hmmm . . . "will lead to damage to your transmission, and will be unstable" or words to that effect are buried in the 197 page Drivers Manual.  Question: are they shytting me??  If you tweak the ECU tables, this engine will produce 300 hp.  Stock, it will push this 3300 lb  car 0-60 in 6.something sec.  So I think it has a pretty decent tranny.  One special feature of the new Honda is the extensive use of high-strength steel in a number of important parts.  It Has a stiffer body than previous versions, and also accounts for the notable increase of interior volume and improved sight lines.  Ok, where's the question, you ask.  What could possibly go wrong with flat towing the Speedy?  Hitch equipment is Class I rated at 2,000 lb.  Can't get a straight answer from the 3rd party hitch folks, since they are required to follow mfr guidelines, and can't comment about exceeding them.  If one minds one's speed, separation distances and exercises judicious use of gearing (has 6 speeds for heaven's sake) , this does not seem like a huge risk to me.  Therefore, I humbly bring my dilemma to those who know shyt from shinola.  Lay on, dear friends.

2007 JPS MotorSports Speedster

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Think you made wise decision on not attempting to tow so soon --- plus such long distance.  Doubt 6th or 5th speeds are suitable for towing - suspect it would put strain on clutch (with the towed car pulling/pushing back).

I recently put a hidden Hard Dog hitch in my Mazda MX-5 (Miata) -- not to tow the 4Runner or even the Speedster.  I want to be able to put a bike rack on the back for short 10-mile trips to safe bike roads.  Plus a cut-down aluminum hitch hauler.  The new MX-5 truely has less space ithan  Speedster!  I had to remove the rear bumper - which was near the size of the rear of the car.  I covered edges with lots of blue painters tape (multiple thicknesses).  Since bumper was so flimsy, I had a helper pull it off without twisting it - and also to reattach it.  I did find detailed instructions on Miata website which was very helpful.  You might find some on You-Tube too. On the Miata the receiver is L shaped and totally removable so unseen.

As your retired resident professional transporter .I'll say this ….  Honda states max towing weight not exceed 1,000 lbs for more than one  reason  Safety being  job one. The arse end of a Honda is light in compared to the towed weight , sure local short towing is do-able but at highway speeds there is a real time opportunity to  begin to oscillate left to right and with each second the swing gets bigger there is minimal chance to recover. Should you be tooling along at highway speeds and you make a sudden aggressive move your gone in a blink of an eye and it gets way ugly. Some may feel I am over stating this and will  disagree but I speak from 47 years of car carrier trucking and one incident ( see above) of towing three stacked open deck car trailers behind a short wheel base Ford Explorer...the only thing that saved me was my years of trucking experience.    Kelly, smart move is to rent / borrow a pick up truck.

 

Last edited by Alan Merklin
Art posted:

Three trailers ???  Where in the world can that be done?  Not here in the land of fruit and nuts.. . , I think that's correct ? @Robert M

California is one of the states that allows towing of two trailers behind a single tow vehicle, called a triple tow because three vehicles are involved. Maximum length cannot exceed 65’ from the front bumper to the rear bumper. 

Several states even allow the towing of three trailers. 

There are other rules that restrict how much the combination of trailers can deviate in their side to side movement while traveling on the roadway in a straight line. So if you’re going to do it make sure you read all the rules. 

Last edited by Robert M

Lane, My plan is to drive the car for three straight days on roads much like those for which it was designed.  At least when you come to Carlisle, you spend those three interim days sitting around on your ass eating egg samiches and sipping whiskey.  Just sayin'

Short of the story: I have decided that playing pokey with 18 wheelers on the interstate, while often done for various stretches, is just not that enjoyable.  One could take all secondary roads, I suppose, but that might take a week. Google says I'm about 550 mi out from MV.  And as it appears, I'll have no wingmen.  So that is the calculus. Pls also know that I lived for many years in one or another daily driver 356s (coupes, BTW) when I was significantly younger.  Never thought a thing about it.  Longest trip was out and back to the PCH; that one was 6 weeks, and quite literally living in the car.  Camping, in other words.

Alan, so its the wiggle waggle jackknife risk??  Augmented by a light rear end of the towing car? They think the car has enough control authority to handle 1,000 # oscillating at the back, but not more.  Hmmm.  My one time flat towing so far was up and back to Carlisle this year.  Used a Subaru Outback, which Subaru says is good for 1500 # I think.  Never had a lick of trouble, other than the push/pull thing at times.  I was very conservative in my driving.  Mileage sort took a hit, but not too bad.  Never had to panic stop, although I did do a few hard ones.  And then there was the semi about 20 miles out of Carlisle on I81, came roaring down the on ramp to my right, which ramp had a really long merge lane, but that did no good, as I guess the driver just was going to damn fast and could not, or would not, turn the rig sharper, so he (might have been a she, happened real fast) just whizzed right over to my lane. Lots of traffic to the left of me, and a sharp driver also saw what was developing, scooched to his left a bit, I got to the left a bit too, and I guess all three of us whipped by on something like two lanes.  Lots of horn. And some prayers, although those came a moment later and were of the thankful kind.  Even so, never felt anything like an oscillation or uncontrolled tracking, and that was the sharpest steering input administered.  Mostly just toodled the right lane, modest speed, paid attention.

Kelly, one thing Alan didn't mention is that the Honda, being front wheel drive, will be even more prove to the problems he describes.  Remember how forward weight biased that are - probably 60% on the front wheels.  Not only will that exacerbate the problem Alan describes, but the tongue weight of the trailer will reduce traction on the driving wheels.  A friend of mine and I had to rescue a family in a big honking' front wheel drive SUV trying to pull a boat up a wet ramp.  He and I had to sit on their hood to give them enough weight to get traction on the ramp.  Towing much of anything with front wheel drive isn't wise.

First of all, there is no tongue weight when flat-towing. I have MANY miles of experience with towing a 1500 pound Spyder behind me , on it's own wheels. Three different cars. Every one is AWD, and a wagon. I guess I like that combo LOL.

First with a 1998 Subaru Legacy GT(basically an Outback with lowered suspension and bigger wheels). It towed fine, but I had to drop the 5 speed manual into 4th on some hills on I-81 South to Carlisle. 165hp was enough, but sometimes lacking. 3300 lbs. car with 2000 tow rating.

Then, I got an '01 Passat V6 4-motion. 190-200 horses, better, but more than sometimes the Tiptronic goes down to 4th on hills. Less noise and vibration, and the heavier tow vehicle was more of a solid feel. 3700 lbs. or so, same tow rating as Suby.

Now, I have the Allroad. 2005, 300hp V8. 4700 pounds. Almost never downshifts with almost the same Tiptronic 5 speed as the Passat. The quietest by far, almost like there isn't anything back there at all. Until you brake, then it reminds you of the extra weight. But other than the braking, the Spyder follows the Audi perfectly. It's the best setup by far, decreases mileage the least. This one has a 3500 rating.

I've never experienced any waggle with any of the three cars, towing back and forth to Carlisle many times. I have almost crashed, one time with a Ford pickup, towing a heavy 2 axle trailer with a Vanagon Westy on it. No trailer brakes hooked up, and the weight bias too far back. Not enough tongue weight WILL kill you.

Kelly, wise move. If Honda gives you a 1000 pound limit, I wouldn't exceed it.

Alan beat me to it but to repeat: The issue isn't the clutch or the trans or the engine or the strength of the chassis. 

It's all about the weight distribution.

Case in point: Our friend and colleague Bill Ascheman has been flat-towing his front-engine TD replica up to Redding twice a summer to run the hill climb races. He's got a small Ford pickup truck and never had an issue.

This year he threw out the Pinto engine for a 302. Not much more weight. As wasn't much more weight the jungle gym style bolt-on six-point roll cage he's got as a racing requirement. 

The car probably weighs 2400 pounds. The truck can handle that all day, up hill.

Going down though, on slick roads a few weeks back, this happened: 

The TD tried to pass him on a steep, wet switchback. Jackknife city.

Also, a lady was coming up the other way.

Dang.

So remember, with towing, getting up to speed isn't usually the challenge.

The lady looks like was driving a Honda.

Lane: flat tow = no tongue weight.  And yes Honda FWD has more on front tires than rear.  The Soobie Outback we used to flat tow to Carlisle this year is AWD, whatever that means.

And Ed, that there scares the shyt outa me.  No mountainous wet switchbacks on road to Carlisle, but it was raining, as I bet you remember. No issues.

I still think the Accord can handle the 1800 lb flat tow.  Maybe need a couple hundred lbs of rocks in the trunk??

Side note, manual says this four door sedan has a gross load rating of ONLY 850 lb.  It seats five comfortably.  Five 200 lb guys is 1,000 lb, so no go?  That seems ridiculous.  Four 200 lb adults only get 50 lbs of luggage between them?  Hmmmm . . .

I flat towed my CMC full of stuff 860 miles from No. VA to NW FL with a 4 cyl automatic Toyota Camry years ago.  It was front wheel drive and same weight at Accord. I turned off the overdrive button.  No real difficulties other than the rolling hills of NC at the very start.  I towed I95, I85 and I65 so straight road and constant speed --- and (LOL)  all down hill the whole way!  Made sure I found 2 spaces that I could merely drive through at motel that night.  Don't back up using a VW tow bar.

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Yeah, that’s a given.  They can void your warranty in a heartbeat even with a cl 1 hitch (and I personally wouldn’t install anything less than a cl 3 to tow anything with).

How often will you be towing your Speedster?  Once or twice a year?  And you’re going to risk your brand new car for a couple of tows a year?

Rent a proper trailer with trailer brakes and a proper tow vehicle, either pickup truck or adequate SUV (either preferably with integrated trailer braking package) and do it right.  You’ll be nervous enough, because you don’t trailer anything very often.  Using a barely adequate tow-car just makes the worrying worse.

I towed for a couple of years with an F150 5.4L that I added a basic trailer braking module and a Reese CL 3 hitch to. My trailer had electric brakes.  It was, I thought, an OK setup, but accelerating/passing required planning a mile or so ahead, heavy stopping was always a white knuckle experience and pulling up through the NC/VA/WV mountains had me watching the temp gauge a lot.

Then, I moved up to an F250 with a complete trailer package (suspension, cooling, integrated load-sensing brake controller, bigger brakes, stiffer chassis, etc) and that was a totally different experience.  It felt like it belonged towing something.  I never had to worry about accelerating or stopping or pulling hills - it just did.  

Do yourself a favor.  For a couple of instances a year versus screwing up your new daily driver, rent a truck and trailer and do it right.  And get decent insurance.

Come on, Gordon, an F250? I mean, yeah, U-Haul's an option. But U-Haul is expensive and also sucks, so...

I have towed Bridget (1800 pounds, rear-engine TD) to 250 miles to CT and back a couple times to Pittsburgh once and to Carlisle once with my 4 cylinder, 2-wheel drive Nissan Frontier pickup, using a bumper hitch. 

The truck is rated to tow a max of 2000 pounds and, with this rig, the limit really is in the torque. Doing the mountain ranges on the way west was a bit of a challenge. You gotta be OK with using the right lane.

Weight distribution-wise, we good. With the engine in the back of Bridget, there's very little chance of something like what happened to Bill happening. Even empty, the back end of the truck can stay planted in a directional change and the car will follow. 

Braking is longer, and it was way, waaaay longer on the trip back from Carlisle a couple years ago, with the truck bed AND Bridget piled illegally high with Merklin's shop tools and 25 years of random spares. 

That final leg of the trip was truly dangerous, as I probably had about 800 pounds of junk along with the towed vehicle. Never again, OK? 

But just the car, empty? Sure thing!

All of which is to say: No way. NO FREEKIN WAY Kelly needs a goddamn F250 and a trailer to drag his Speedster a couple hundred miles. That's insane, as the trailer alone almost outweighs the car, and the truck's engine outweighs both, and the fuel he'd burn outweighs all three. How much unneeded mass do you want to haul? 

He could flat tow with the Honda. But it'd be better to get something a little heavier, maybe with rear wheel drive or at least some mass in the back.

That's all.

"Get you an F250 to tow your 1600-lb Speedster replica" is like telling a dude who's asking about bolt sizes he really oughtta spend three grand on a Wilwood four-wheel disc kit. 

I mean, if you're gonna go all suspension, cooling, integrated load-sensing brake controller, bigger brakes, stiffer chassis then why not tell Kelly to get this?

Agreed, Ed.

Although I take offense(no, not really!) to your 3 grand brakes/bolt sizes comment LOL! It was only 2 grand!

My Audi setup for flat tow is MORE than adequate. The only thing that would make it better is one of those brake buddy contraptions. 

That's all most of us are saying, Kelly. You need a more suitable tow vehicle. I like the idea of renting an SUV or truck occasionally. But that new Accord scares me. It has "Nanny" overload with all those electronic doo-dads. It will probably automatically accelerate because it thinks you have a tailgater LOL! Not really but I don't like all that self-control crap.

Copy all of that sage advice.  First off, I AM renting a pick-up truck at U-Haul, so there is that.  I'm not doubling the weight towed using a trailer, will flat tow.  Gordon's lash up w/ a F250 sure is a proper approach, but without hyperbole or inappropriate metaphors, it seems overkill if all you got is a Speedster.  I will assume Gordo wanted that truck for other reasons.  Like having it die a sudden death in the middle of the busiest interstate intersection in the middle of eastern PA, just sayin'.

Voided warranty: there is a law in this land about warranties that says a seller who offers a warranty cannot void it if the modification to the car had nothing to do with the failure.  They cannot void a warranty claim for a problem with your brakes or door latch, lets say,  because you added a  sound system to your car.  If you modify a part on your car and that part fails, then you will be on your own.

As to the Honda,  if equipped with the 1.5 l engine, they say car is not designed to tow.  Honda does not offer a towing (hitch) package for this car as an option.  If the car has the 2.0 l engine, as does mine, then they say the towing limit is 1,000 lb, and they go on for a couple of pages in the manual about how to tow.  So while they do not actively support towing as an option, they clearly accept that towing is a real deal. They say nothing explicitly about any warranty waivers, should you decide to tow within their stated limits.  Perhaps it is implied that if you do tow more than 1,000 lb, your warranty will not cover any subsequent damage/failures directly connected w/ such towing.  Hope to never find out.  I have the hitch eq't from e-trailer, looks pretty well considered.  Will put that on so can use my 5x8 trailer to go to the dump, etc.  Will also lash up the Speedster one fine day, and take it for a spin locally to see how it all goes.  Then will decide about future excursions.

Footnote: As many of you know, I have had some issues with the running of the engine associated with improper (inexperienced??) attention to the carbs.  Plus a few other minor catastrophes, owing mostly to user error, but still disconcerting at the time, and not confidence building. All of that has been deviling me for a while.  Recently, proper attention was paid to the Webers (txs yet again, Mr. Pip), and the car has been running well since May.  I am not averse to just driving the damn thing for some distances to rally up if I can regain confidence that it will run properly for that duration.  I am getting there.  If I can put a year on the car and have it run reliably, would consider running up and back to Maggie Valley or wherever next year.  And then there is the weather issue . . .  So towing one way or the other is a very viable option for me.

PS: renting a vehicle that will tow (U-haul seems the only option here) is not cheap.

I never said anyone needed an F250 (or a 600CI Pete) to haul a Speedster.

I just pointed out that I started out with Stock F150, which I think most people on here, myself included, would think to be an adequate Speedster-hauler, and then found, when I upgraded to something designed and built specifically for trailering, how barely adequate that F150 truck was in my situation.

It all boils down to; (a.) Do you feel safe while you’re hauling your (insert car/trailer here)?,

(b.) Are you doing no harm to your tow vehicle?  and,

(c.) Will your towing combination (tow vehicle and towed vehicle) act as expected under panic circumstances?

If you are happy with whatever set-up you have and those three things, then go for it.  If you can eliminate a trailer by flat-towing and are comfortable with that, that’s fine, too, as long as you remember the eccentricities of flat-towing, like, don’t back up unless you KNOW what you’re doing and remember to allow extra room when braking.

I did a Panic stop in Philadelphia in morning rush hour traffic on I95 once.  7,000 pound truck, 2,000 pound Pearl on a 1,500 pound trailer (with electric trailer brakes) and about 600 pounds of stuff in the truck bed.  70 to zero in about 100+ yards and actually stopped sooner than a delivery truck next to me by a few feet.  The trailer never waivered because it had trailer brakes - the controller pulsed them the same as ABS.  

Do you need all that?  Prob’ly not, but I don’t want to ever read on here that someone had an accident for some reason when they were towing their car, that’s all.  Call me an overkill guy if you want.  I’m OK with that.

Kelly - Try Penske Rentals.  They might be cheaper than U-Haul (and often much better equipment, too.)   No, renting isn’t cheap, but how often do you need to do it?

Last edited by Gordon Nichols
Gordon Nichols posted:

It all boils down to;

(a.) Do you feel safe while you’re hauling your (insert car/trailer here)?,

(b.) Are you doing no harm to your tow vehicle?  and,

(c.) Will your towing combination (tow vehicle and towed vehicle) act as expected under panic circumstances?

 

I've trailered stuff for business for many years. I won't say I trailer "a lot", because truck-drivers trailer "a lot", and I just tow when I need to. But my son learned to back a trailer (mirrors only, no back windows) the first summer he had his licence. It's a skill we just have to have. I own several trailers, which all see occasional use.

Towing means compromising, no matter what. If you have a set-up that meets all 3 of Gordon's criteria, you're going to have >$50K in your kit. Towing is always a risk, and no truck/trailer is ever going to stop like a car, so you need to leave yourself room. How much room is a function of how elaborate your set-up is. Better rigs need less room around them. "Acting as expected" (c) means having realistic expectations of your ability to stop and turn. Forewarned is forearmed.

Flat towing means that you can have a marginal (b) tow vehicle, because you're only pulling 2000 lbs, and you've got no tongue weight. However, because you have no tongue weight, the car behind you is going to have a tendency to oscillate if you try to fly down the interstate. Putting it on a trailer really helps, but then you are adding the weight of the trailer as well.

So it really boils down to (a)-- do you feel safe with your load? I'm not talking about, "I'm too stupid to know how dangerous this is", I'm talking about feeling confident with the load, the speed, and how much room you are able to leave around you.

I pulled my car down to NC on a 1500lb car-hauling rollback trailer last weekend (total load was approaching 4000 lbs). I used an E320 diesel with 240K mi. and had the cruise set in the high 70s. It was perfect. Any more would have been no good, but I felt very comfortable with the rig.

Your mileage may vary.

 

My Spyder flat tows like it's not there. No oscillation at all. I've momentarily exceeded 80 with it back there. Usually run it around 70-74 with no problems. I even use cruise control in light traffic.

It takes longer to stop, no brakes on the car. It takes longer to get up to speed as well, as it should. Leave PLENTY of space, which means people will jump into it, and you'll back off even more.

The Spyder WILL push the Audi a little if you brake on a corner, but not excessively so. I try to do all my braking in a straight line, then roll through the corner. I just did 1600 miles, no troubles. Trans gets warm. That's it.

I had a transmission temp gauge in my pickup, a few years back.  It almost never moved except on that 11-mile uphill on I-81 going from North Carolina north into Virginia.  I was zoned out, just driving along, sitting in Cruise Control at 72, while pulling Pearl on her trailer, Kathy looking out the window, bored, and the dogs asleep on the back seat.  I think we had "Click and Klack, the Tappet brothers" from "Car Talk" blaring from the iPod (no wonder she was bored, huh?) and we were just smokin' along, heading North.

I should have noticed that I was passing Big Rigs like they were going backwards, but it took a mile or two for that to set in.  I scanned the dash gauges and the Transmission temp was a couple of needle widths high and I thought, "hmmmmmm.....Wonder what's causing that?  Maybe some trash in the grill?"  

I noticed that I was passing Big Rigs with a "Whoosh!" as I went by, me still in Cruise at 72-mph and them at maybe 30-35mph as they slowly ground up that long, steep uphill.  

And then I looked at the turbo boost gauge and it's sitting just above 40 pounds of boost and I realized why the exhaust was snorting as loudly as it was.  Say what you want about Ford 6-liter diesels, when they're happy, they get the job done and then some!

Last edited by Gordon Nichols
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