Skip to main content

Thankfully, most folks haven't discovered the joy of hooning around in 2'-3' of fresh powder with studded snow tires yet. TBH, climate change being what it is, you haven't needed all out winter tires here except for 2-3 days the last 4 years I've been back. Unless you ski, winter camp, or fish, there's really not much need. 

In fact, I replaced my Conti Contac/Winter Contac setup on the Smart with some Vredstein Quadtrac last month. Supposed to be excellent 4 season tires. Even have the newly-required-here snowflake. I have studded Coopers for my SUV for the "snow days."

@dlearl476 posted:

The CB performance Wide Five one (4501?) It was the only one John (@aircooled.net) knew for certain had the same track width as OEM. 

 

Vintage 190's are on my list, but my next investment is going to be my aluminum tank. 

I went back to the beginning of this thread and looked it up. I was curious because AFAIK there is no such thing as a "stock" track width wide5 ball joint disc set.

Part #4501 is the Fast Fab truss bar setup. I almost bought their(Fast Fab's) filter mount with bypass, but ended up using JayCee, a very nice piece.

#4201 is the ball joint wide5 disc kit. 

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/4201.htm

It says right there it's 7/8" wider per side. They recommend using a 2" narrowed beam.

I'm saying what I've always said, there is no such thing as a wide5, ball joint, stock track disc brake kit. CSP and Airkewld increase the track width by at least 3/4" to 1" total.

All the kits use a ball-joint drum spindle, and instead of a thin backing plate you get a 3/8" steel caliper bracket. That's the minimum widening right there. Then you've got more width, depending on packaging around the caliper/rim/disc. The hub has to add more width unless the caliper is thinner than a stock drum.

I'd like to see a wide5 disc hub that uses a Karmann Ghia disc spindle, this SHOULD allow a stock(or very close to stock) width.

Last edited by DannyP
@DannyP posted:

I went back to the beginning of this thread and looked it up. I was curious because AFAIK there is no such thing as a "stock" track width wide5 ball joint disc set.

Part #4501 is the Fast Fab truss bar setup. I almost bought their(Fast Fab's) filter mount with bypass, but ended up using JayCee, a very nice piece.

#4201 is the ball joint wide5 disc kit. 

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/4201.htm

It says right there it's 7/8" wider per side. They recommend using a 2" narrowed beam.

I'm saying what I've always said, there is no such thing as a wide5, ball joint, stock track disc brake kit. CSP and Airkewld increase the track width by at least 3/4" to 1" total.

All the kits use a ball-joint drum spindle, and instead of a thin backing plate you get a 3/8" steel caliper bracket. That's the minimum widening right there. Then you've got more width, depending on packaging around the caliper/rim/disc. The hub has to add more width unless the caliper is thinner than a stock drum.

I'd like to see a wide5 disc hub that uses a Karmann Ghia disc spindle, this SHOULD allow a stock(or very close to stock) width.

Well that sucks. John assured me they were stock width. I bought them from his site after numerous emails with him. I had no idea it was a CB kit until it arrived. 
But thanks for the info. I’m glad I found out before I installed them. Now that I’ve balanced them, there’s no way I can return them. $550 out the f**cking window. 

@DannyP posted:

I'd like to see a wide5 disc hub that uses a Karmann Ghia disc spindle, this SHOULD allow a stock(or very close to stock) width.

Which begs the question: what sort of “challenges” would you encounter if you were to graft a ghia disc front end  on, from the ball joints out? And would it be the same track?  

100 miles of Spyder therapy, and I’m feeling better. Expensive lesson. Next time I’ll talk to Spyder guys like you, instead of trusting a VW guy to know what’s what. 

What are the differences in bearings? If they use the same bearings, or even if they don't, adapters could be made. We need a wide5 pattern hub with the same track width as stock. There has to be a way.

Ed, how thick are wheel adapters? They have to add at least 3/8", probably 1/2".

In my old Spyder, which had the same body as Beck and TR, I had wheel rub on the fender tops. It got really bad when I went from the CSP brakes to Airkewld. I moved the wheel centers myself about 3/8" and had no more wheel rub. It's amazing to me that 3/8" matters(3/4" total track).

I believe the CSP brakes add 3/8", and the AIrkewld ANOTHER 3/8", so 3/4" per side, 1.5" total. That's huge for track width/fender clearance. If you have drums or KG discs, you're good. And I believe with EMPI/SOCAL barbells, you're OK clearance-wise, but OMG the unsprung weight.........

On my new car I had Greg build it with a 2" narrowed beam, and solved my problem WITHOUT custom wheels.

Last edited by DannyP
@edsnova posted:

Ghia discs are 4 x 130 wheel bolt pattern, no? They'd work perfect but you'd still need an adaptor if you wanted wide-5 wheels.

Oh snap, that's right. I forgot that part. 

@DannyP posted:

What are the differences in bearings? If they use the same bearings, or even if they don't, adapters could be made. We need a wide5 pattern hub with the same track width as stock. There has to be a way.

Ed, how thick are wheel adapters? They have to add at least 3/8", probably 1/2".

In my old Spyder, which had the same body as Beck and TR, I had wheel rub on the fender tops. It got really bad when I went from the CSP brakes to Airkewld. I moved the wheel centers myself about 3/8" and had no more wheel rub. It's amazing to me that 3/8" matters(3/4" total track).

I believe the CSP brakes add 3/8", and the AIrkewld ANOTHER 3/8", so 3/4" per side, 1.5" total. That's huge for track width/fender clearance. If you have drums or KG discs, you're good. And I believe with EMPI/SOCAL barbells, you're OK clearance-wise, but OMG the unsprung weight.........

On my new car I had Greg build it with a 2" narrowed beam, and solved my problem WITHOUT custom wheels.

You know what occured to me today during Spyder Therapy?  When I first got the car, and wondered why the brakes sucked, it dawned on me that 4 wheel drums stopped 2500# VW Bugs just dandy. Alfins stopped original 550's just dandy. 

Theres no way that proper drums won't stop this car on a dime. I think the drums/shoes are glazed, coated in grease, something. I've never bothered because I've been planning on upgrading for years.  When I put the Super Beetle M/C on it last year, they got significantly better. I've driven RVs, 26,000# trucks, and BMW /5s enough to know how to think 1/2 mild ahead. 

Bottom line, I'm just going to put new drums/shoes on all fours, along with the SS lines I bought for the upgrade. And try to sell these discs on the Samba. Hell, they're balanced to <1g now. Should sell quickly.

FWIW, I have the usual 4.5" wheels w/195/65-R15s (?) up front (whatever size Carey recommends on the website) and looking straight down at the top of my fender, the edge of the tread/top of the sidewall is exactly at the edge of my fender. (I checked, hoping against hope that I could actually make 7/8th" extra track work. I can't)

I think before I throw in the towel, I'm going to see if I can get some info on these. At first glance, it looks like they might work. And the new spindle eliminating the extra caliper bracket might help offset the increased weight of the cast hub. 

https://socalautoparts.com/pro...ug-ghia-1966-and-up/

image

I was all excited when I saw the silver calipers, thinking they might be aluminum. Alas, no.

 

FWIW, This same set-up, minus the spindles, is sold to convert disc brake Ghias to 5x205, so I'm assuming it's what we're talking about above. Another plus is that they're Rabbit calipers, so any O'PepBoysCheckerAutozone will sell pads. 

 

ETA: These may not be the zero offset discs. The ones that definitely are are 71lbs, so 35/side. No go. 

Attachments

Images (1)
  • image
Last edited by dlearl476

Right, That's what I'm talking about. You may be able to machine the CB hubs to fit the bearings that come with the Socal kit, moving them in some. And shim the caliper in a little, possibly machining some off the caliper bracket(the one on the caliper, not the spindle). Or even use a different and much lighter caliper!

Imagine that, aluminum hub and caliper with an iron rotor and a solid steel spindle. Perfect.

I'm curious how you make out with this, not for me, for others that are looking to do this.

@DannyP posted:

Right, That's what I'm talking about. You may be able to machine the CB hubs to fit the bearings that come with the Socal kit, moving them in some. And shim the caliper in a little, possibly machining some off the caliper bracket(the one on the caliper, not the spindle). Or even use a different and much lighter caliper!

Imagine that, aluminum hub and caliper with an iron rotor and a solid steel spindle. Perfect.

I'm curious how you make out with this, not for me, for others that are looking to do this.

I think for the time being, I’m going to punt. Put new drums, shoes, and SS lines all around, put the discs on the back burner and move on to getting my aluminum tank made. 

Depending how the drums work, I’ll revisit next winter. 

In my searching last night, I came across some Wilwood calipers that were $215. According to one of the posts re: the AC Ind kit, the rabbit calipers use a standard bolt spacing, so at some point I’m going to dig through the Wilwood website and see it I can find a caliper with that bolt spacing. 

Danny, do you remember what the ET is on your Vintage 190’s? And do you have 4.5’s on the front. I’ve noticed a couple of websites only sell the 5.5’s but I do remember seeing 4.5’s somewhere.  

Last edited by dlearl476

Go ahead, jump into that "aluminum tank" pool. I want to see how deep it is.

I figured that would be a winter project, at least for me. I'd remove that silly VW tank and take some measurements and have lots of cardboard on hand. I also had thoughts of removing that hump that prevents me from wearing shoes on my gas foot. Maybe install an aluminum panel there to access the bottom of the new tank without having to remove it for future service. Maybe also have access to a fuel cock...

Many ideas bouncing in this head.

Anyone who has a Spyder other than the Flared Thunder Ranch, has 4.5s up front with 185s as the biggest tire.

Last edited by Carlos G
@dlearl476 posted:

 In my searching last night, I came across some Wilwood calipers that were $215. According to one of the posts re: the AC Ind kit, the rabbit calipers use a standard bolt spacing, so at some point I’m going to dig through the Wilwood website and see it I can find a caliper with that bolt spacing. 

David, There's a place advertising on TheSamba (VdubEngineering) that makes brackets to use 4-piston Wilwood calipers with standard Ghia brake rotors. I'm not sure if this helps at all, but there are some people out there who are trying to use inexpensive hub/rotor setups and light/good Wilwood brakes.

Last edited by Stan Galat
@Stan Galat posted:

David, There's a place advertising on TheSamba (VdubEngineering) that makes brackets to use 4-piston Wilwood calipers with standard Ghia brake rotors. I'm not sure if this helps at all, but there are some people out there who are trying to use inexpensive hub/rotor setups and light/good Wilwood brakes.

I'll check it out. Thanks, Stan. 

 

Here's what's left to discover: if I can simply put a Ghia upright on my beam, or if Ghia rotors will fit on my upright, and if so, will it net the zero offset I'm looking for. 

Last edited by dlearl476
@Carlos G posted:

Go ahead, jump into that "aluminum tank" pool. I want to see how deep it is.

I figured that would be a winter project, at least for me. I'd remove that silly VW tank and take some measurements and have lots of cardboard on hand. I also had thoughts of removing that hump that prevents me from wearing shoes on my gas foot. Maybe install an aluminum panel there to access the bottom of the new tank without having to remove it for future service. Maybe also have access to a fuel cock...

Many ideas bouncing in this head.

Anyone who has a Spyder other than the Flared Thunder Ranch, has 4.5s up front with 185s as the biggest tire.

Winter project as in the place that's making it mostly makes boat tanks and when I called them in June they were swamped (pardon the pun). We already mocked up the tank last fall, all that's left it to finalize the measurements and start welding. I put a hold on it last fall because I couldn't find a decent flip cap for under $400. I have now. 

It's  not going to be some work of art like an original, or Ed's cover.  Just a functional gas tank that won't rust or leak. The guy estimated it will be about 8 gal. and we're working on it coming up to about .75"-1" below the frunk lid. The cap will pretty much sit on top of the tank, with only about a 1"-2" filler neck. Just enough to put a vent spout on it. 

The bottom is going to slant down to clear the steering column to a low point in front of the passenger footwell.  I tried finding a bung to match the OEM VW screen and spigot to no avail, so what I'm going to use is an HD peacock with a reserve, and rig it up like a T1-356 and the old Bugs, with a lever in the footwell. Based on the tank were imagining, it should give about a 1-1.5gal reserve. 

Last edited by dlearl476

Backspacing I'm not sure about. But yes I have 4.5" F and 5.5" R Vintage 190s in silver powdercoat.

Stan, nobody with a Spyder wants 4 x 130 pattern. Nobody.

I've started doing some research on the brakes. There is a local VW bodyman/restorer 3 miles from me. He has a CB wide5 kit on drop spindles lying on his shop floor. He also has a Karmann Ghia with discs. I'm free to measure at will.

It appears to me that MOST of the kits use a spacer on the spindle to push the whole hub out, then have that THICK flange for the studs/wheel bolts.

@IaM-Ray

Wildwood, it's in New Jersey. Wilwood, they make race car stuff.

I've had my Wilwood 4 piston calipers for 5 or 6 years now. They require nothing special for maintenance other than the periodic fluid changes we all require.

I have 4 piston non-floating calipers, and as such, there are no pins and/or sliders to muck up. The caliper simply mounts solidly to the caliper bracket. The 4 pistons have seals like any other caliper. The 2 piston models are the same way.

That's the problem with anecdotal "I heard" stuff. Probably some shill trying to push people to buy stuff that he sells.

Last edited by DannyP

Add Reply

Post Content
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×