Help ASAP! 356 slSpeedster repl. registration and insurance

@Gordon Nichols can you help David out as you are the resident expert on MA registration.

I’ll let Gordon weigh in as he has local knowledge, but my experience buying cars in 5-6 states through the years is that, generally, the problem is with the initial registration, transferring the builder’s MSO (Manufacturers Statement of Origin) to a title.

Once there is a title, with a VIN that matches something on the car that can be verified by a DMV VIN inspection,* (whether the VIN is in standard 17-digit format or not) registering your car in MA shouldn’t be any more difficult than buying an Oldsmobile in CT and registering it in MA.

*Typically this is the VW serial number located by the shift linkage access plate on the tunnel behind/between the seats on a VW pan based car or a Special Construction sticker like this on others.
Someone posted on another thread that CMC also had their own gold VIN sticker on some cars. In my Beck, they used the SC Id number, not the Beck serial number.

@David K ,
What does the Make/Model of the CT title read?  
"HO/RO" or something similar?
-=theron

Sorry for the late response - Been out fighting with my seat belts all afternoon.

Yeah, I would be interested in what the title says for both the vehicle description and the current VIN.  You can PM me if you don't want to make that public, but those two are crucial to get "right" for the Mass. DMV to go along with you.

OK, so Massachusetts has two ways to go about getting a replica registration depending on whether the car was built before 2007 or after 2007:

Built before 2007  on a VW pan or tube frame, use the "Mass Registration PAN" file attached, written by me:  

Built after 2007 use the "Mass Registration Frame" file attached written by Prarit Bhargava.   This should only be used as a last resort.

I know of two replicas built on VW pans that have been successfully registered in the last two years as VW convertibles and so far they have been passing the annual inspection.  IMHO, they are playing Russian Roulette with Applus, the guys randomly watching vehicle inspections as they are performed across the state.  If they see a car that doesn't match the vehicle's registration description (Looks like a Porsche, says it's a VW) they may flag it and haul you in before the Registry people for some 'splaining.  Applus has the final say whether you get or keep a registration or not.

I've attached the Massachusetts Replica law for reference, too, and I also have an example document showing how to request a title change - I'll attach that to your PM and send along my contact info in case you need to talk over anything.

Wow.. Thanks. This is both better and worse news thanks I thought. There are now 3 cars in play. I have photos of two of the registrations from the sellers. One Doug Miller, may have been a member here I til 5 years ago. Is it cool to post them in public? I asked for them because my insurance agent wanted to see them. But he is clueless about these cars. He keeps asking for the "make and model".

@David K see other thread about agreed value insurance under Speedsters-General.

Conventional insurance agents don't usually know what these cars are about. Gordon can help you with insurance in Mass. as well as the Motor Vehicle Dept.

@DannyP posted:

@David K see other thread about agreed value insurance under Speedsters-General.

Conventional insurance agents don't usually know what these cars are about. Gordon can help you with insurance in Mass. as well as the Motor Vehicle Dept.

Other thread? I will search in main site search box for "agreed value insurance" but if it's easy, post a link.

I don't know how you view the site, but I always surf it by clicking "Topics" at the top of the banner on PC or clicking the three bars in the upper left corner of a mobile, then clicking topics from the drop-down list.

There is a TON of information on this site, good reading to be had.

I'd think it would be safe to say body manf name (IM/CMC/FF/VS etc) then Speedster Replica (or Tribute).  Not sure on year though as that has emissions/safety implications (year built, year it represents or year of engine/pan?).  What to do about a coupe or Cabriolet though. If DMV even gives you a choice. 

I would think avoiding Porsche and 356 should be avoided. Some states tax (initially and annually) by looking value up in Kelley Bluebook - your $16k CMC replica could be takes at $160k+!

VW as said could be iffy BUT there are a lot of VW models pretty much unknown by young folks in US.  Thing and Karmann Ghia - even 411/412 and Ghia Type34 and SP2.

I'm only on here sporadically for the next couple of days, so sorry if I'm a little late to the rodeo.  OK, so, from the top:

Here are a couple of links to when I was going through re-registering my car from a 1969 VW sedan to a 1957 Porsche Speedster Replica.  

General info:
https://www.speedsterowners.co...3#592697186277616913

A little more detail about getting the VIN:
https://www.speedsterowners.co...8#581716013612850438

More titling detail (beware - some of it is inaccurate!)
https://www.speedsterowners.co...1#586924462016391711

If you have a stamped title from another state (yes, Connecticut counts) then Mass should be able to transfer it over, but then you may need a new VIN and THAT is assigned by the Mass. State Police.   I can't remember which order I did those two things in (it should tell you in the Mass. Registration Pan doc) but I do remember that I had a request for a new VIN all filled out and the State Cop doing the inspection didn't think the RMV would accept it that way so he re-wrote the entire form to insure that it would pass - It did.  The State Cop inspection is mostly to insure that no stolen car parts were used in the construction.  For you, that may be moot.

On the titling, I would deal directly with the RMV titling office in Quincy (857) 368-7491 They saw the whole process as just another title to change and process, while the Worcester RMV office freaked out because only one supervisor knew sort-of what to do or who to contact (but they gave me the phone number of the head of titling).  I dealt with the head of the titling office in Quincy, but he's retired.  The number I supplied for him at the titling office should get you into the office and you can tell them what you're trying to do and they can suggest the best person to help.  The Quincy office proved to be extremely helpful and knowledgeable - I was in and out in less than 20 minutes with no hassle, the total opposite of dealing with local offices.

On insurance, I had Liberty Mutual on ALL our cars until I changed the Speedster registration from a VW to a replica - Then Liberty Mutual freaked out and didn't know how to deal with an agreed-value replica of something.  I ended up with Hagerty and although I have an insurance company in my town who is a Hagerty rep, they are completely clueless (and useless, too).  None of my many Hot Rod friends use local insurance offices - they all go with Grundy or Hagerty and deal direct.  I deal directly with Hagerty (online or the phone) and have had great support, even though it is a CMC.  I emailed photos and they came up with an agreed value.  Done.

Wow. Thanks Gordon!

@Gordon Nichols posted:

I'm only on here sporadically for the next couple of days, so sorry if I'm a little late to the rodeo.  OK, so, from the top:

Here are a couple of links to when I was going through re-registering my car from a 1969 VW sedan to a 1957 Porsche Speedster Replica.  

General info:
https://www.speedsterowners.co...3#592697186277616913

A little more detail about getting the VIN:
https://www.speedsterowners.co...8#581716013612850438

More titling detail (beware - some of it is inaccurate!)
https://www.speedsterowners.co...1#586924462016391711

If you have a stamped title from another state (yes, Connecticut counts) then Mass should be able to transfer it over, but then you may need a new VIN and THAT is assigned by the Mass. State Police.   I can't remember which order I did those two things in (it should tell you in the Mass. Registration Pan doc) but I do remember that I had a request for a new VIN all filled out and the State Cop doing the inspection didn't think the RMV would accept it that way so he re-wrote the entire form to insure that it would pass - It did.  The State Cop inspection is mostly to insure that no stolen car parts were used in the construction.  For you, that may be moot.

On the titling, I would deal directly with the RMV titling office in Quincy (857) 368-7491 They saw the whole process as just another title to change and process, while the Worcester RMV office freaked out because only one supervisor knew sort-of what to do or who to contact (but they gave me the phone number of the head of titling).  I dealt with the head of the titling office in Quincy, but he's retired.  The number I supplied for him at the titling office should get you into the office and you can tell them what you're trying to do and they can suggest the best person to help.  The Quincy office proved to be extremely helpful and knowledgeable - I was in and out in less than 20 minutes with no hassle, the total opposite of dealing with local offices.

On insurance, I had Liberty Mutual on ALL our cars until I changed the Speedster registration from a VW to a replica - Then Liberty Mutual freaked out and didn't know how to deal with an agreed-value replica of something.  I ended up with Hagerty and although I have an insurance company in my town who is a Hagerty rep, they are completely clueless (and useless, too).  None of my many Hot Rod friends use local insurance offices - they all go with Grundy or Hagerty and deal direct.  I deal directly with Hagerty (online or the phone) and have had great support, even though it is a CMC.  I emailed photos and they came up with an agreed value.  Done.

It’s weird to me that MA would assign a new VIN for a transfer of title. I’ve always understood that a VIN was assigned by the manufacture (or the first state titled in case of home-builts) and that altering it was a federal crime.  

I’ve now seen blue tags with an “Assigned Identification Number” like the one I posted from 3 states, CA, AZ, and FL. That’s the number Utah used when I changed my title from a “96 Beck Spyder” to a “55 SPCN BCK” (special construction Beck) when I registered my car in Utah, but maybe MA has different rules when you modify the vehicle description.

Do they affix a new ID plate to your car as well?

The deal with a new VIN for Mass was that I was changing from a VW standard VIN to a Porsche Replica VIN.  Since the Speedster loks nothing like a '69 VW sedan they issued a new Mass. VIN for the new look of te vehicle.  The same would happen for a kit car or special build.  Some Hot Rods are handled differently, depending on what they're building on as a donor, too.  It's not complicated, just different.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

The deal with a new VIN for Mass was that I was changing from a VW standard VIN to a Porsche Replica VIN.  Since the Speedster loks nothing like a '69 VW sedan they issued a new Mass. VIN for the new look of te vehicle.  The same would happen for a kit car or special build.  Some Hot Rods are handled differently, depending on what they're building on as a donor, too.  It's not complicated, just different.

Did they give you a new VIN plate?

Seems like if they didn’t it would lead to problems if you ever sold the car, what with the car having a different VIN than the title.

Like I said, Utah just used the same number from the CA ID plate when I retitled mine. But then my Spyder never had a VW VIN.

@dlearl476

"Did they give you a new VIN plate?"

Yes - a MA specific VIN, the same as if it were in California with a special build VIN.

"Seems like if they didn’t it would lead to problems if you ever sold the car, what with the car having a different VIN than the title."

Nope, same VIN on the registration and title.  Their system keeps a record of the original, super-ceded VW VIN same as California does.  YOU may not be able to see it, but the RMV can.  The Mass. titling office could instantly trace my old VW donor VIN back through three states to when I bought it.

"Like I said, Utah just used the same number from the CA ID plate when I retitled mine. But then my Spyder never had a VW VIN."

Some VINs are OK to use state-to-state, some not, depending on their make-up.  They'll re-use them if they can.  If not, they issue you a new one.  I specifically wanted a new VIN for my replica car to end the identity of the VW donor sedan.  That's why the new VIN for me.  They referenced the original VW VIN in their database against the new Mass. VIN, but that's it.

Gordon - What year of Manufacture did you get? Are you exempt from emissions/safety inspections?  Assume now you can't use antique tags from say the donor VW?  Or can you somehow uses 1957 antique tags.

@WOLFGANG

My car's year of manufacture, regardless of what it says on the CMC plate, is 2001 because THAT is the year I completed the entire car and got it on the road - That's documented by Mass. registration records.  The CMC plate is only for a component of the entire car (the body).  Not only were they not interested in the CMC YOM plate, they didn't even wish to see it!  All they cared about was the sales invoice showing the sales date and that the body was not stolen and was legit.

I later added the CMC plate to the door jamb just to make it look like a coachbuilder made the car (yeah, ME!)  (Actually, I got tired of it sitting on my desk for 20 years).

Because I could prove that the engine was built before 2007 ( I had the invoices for 1997 ), I am emissions test exempt.

I cannot use YOM plates for a 1969 car any longer, because the title/registration says it is now a 1957 car, so I could use a single, green-on-white, butt-turr'ble Mass. '57 plate on the rear only, or an "antique" plate but those restrict how much and when you can drive the car (to/from shows and on weekends under mileage XX)      I could do a vanity plate, but the ancestral "Sumner" side of the family and "Cheap Yankee" in me won't let me shell out the vanity bucks (and besides, some lady in Roslindale already has the "Pearl" plate - We checked).

BTW, all of this titling and registration stuff sounds very involved and mysterious, but let me tell you, it is not.  All 50 states and most territories (not sure about ALL of the territories just yet) can share title and registration info instantly between states and offices - including boats in many states.  IIRC, aircraft are handled in a different database, but the info is shared the same.  When I visited the Mass Title offices I had a complete title history from the initial delivery from the boat to the first dealer through subsequent owners in three states up to my purchase and my three state moves, in my hand in less than a minute after I asked for it.  Even Florida and South Carolina can do that, if they want to (some states do not share this info with the public).

@Gordon Nichols posted:

… The Mass. titling office could instantly trace my old VW donor VIN back through three states to when I bought it…

Truly impressive, Gordon.

California DMV can’t do ANYTHING instantly.

If the building were on fire, it would take them “up to 30 days” to call the fire department.

@Sacto Mitch   🤣😂🤣😂

I know what’cha mean……

I remember returning home in shock after visiting the RMV central titling office.   They were friendly.  They were competent.  They were helpful.  They had living plants.   They offered me coffee!  

I really couldn’t believe I had just left an RMV office!

@Gordon Nichols posted:

@dlearl476

"Did they give you a new VIN plate?"

Yes - a MA specific VIN, the same as if it were in California with a special build VIN.

"Seems like if they didn’t it would lead to problems if you ever sold the car, what with the car having a different VIN than the title."

Nope, same VIN on the registration and title.  Their system keeps a record of the original, super-ceded VW VIN same as California does.  YOU may not be able to see it, but the RMV can.  The Mass. titling office could instantly trace my old VW donor VIN back through three states to when I bought it.

"Like I said, Utah just used the same number from the CA ID plate when I retitled mine. But then my Spyder never had a VW VIN."

Some VINs are OK to use state-to-state, some not, depending on their make-up.  They'll re-use them if they can.  If not, they issue you a new one.  I specifically wanted a new VIN for my replica car to end the identity of the VW donor sedan.  That's why the new VIN for me.  They referenced the original VW VIN in their database against the new Mass. VIN, but that's it.

That’s wild, I’ve transferred 5-6 out of state car and bike titles to three different states and never run into that. The closest I came was when I transferred the CO title on my 968 to Nevada, the computerized emissions machine wouldn’t accept my VIN. I guess 1992 pre-dated the practice of excluding O’s and Z’s from VINs due to their similarities to 0 and 2’s.

The VIN began WPOC… so I had to go to the head honcho at the Clark Co DMV and have him transfer my title and change the paperwork to WP0C…

To this day I can’t have a computerized emissions test. I finally found a place here that understood how to bypass that, enter my license plate, and check it with the sniffer.

But I’m over that. My next renewal he’s 30 years old and I’m going to Vintage plates ie no emissions. WooHoo!

@Gordon Nichols posted:

@Sacto Mitch   🤣😂🤣😂

I know what’cha mean……

I remember returning home in shock after visiting the RMV central titling office.   They were friendly.  They were competent.  They were helpful.  They had living plants.   They offered me coffee!  

I really couldn’t believe I had just left an RMV office!

I had the same experience with the main office in Las Vegas. After all the issues I’d had transferring 3 cars and two bikes, I wasn’t looking forward to a mtg with the head guy.
He couldn’t have been nicer. We spent 2 minutes checking my CO title and BoS against my windshield plate, and 15 minutes talking about cars while he worked his magic on the computer. He had never seen a 968 before and was unaware of the whole water-cooled Porsche line. He was a HotRod and BOTD racing guy  

Nowadays, I don’t even waste my time with the local office. The main Utah DMV is 30 minutes away and they’re super knowledgeable and super friendly. And they have a drive up window!

@Sacto Mitch posted:

Truly impressive, Gordon.

California DMV can’t do ANYTHING instantly.

If the building were on fire, it would take them “up to 30 days” to call the fire department.

try being 1 day late on registration,,,ZING 15% penalty

@barncobob posted:

try being 1 day late on registration,,,ZING 15% penalty

Dang, that’s brutal. With Covid, they aren’t even giving out expired tag tickets here until 90 days past due.

But I’m glad we had this little talk. I realized I hadn’t renewed my tag. 5 minutes online and $22 later: Done deal.

Your initial plate in FL is $225 - an antique (30 year old car) is only $75.  Your plates expire on your birthday - Happy Birthday.  (Same for boats and trailers).  I put wife first on some of the registrations so all don't renew at same time.  DMV is the local tax office!