Skip to main content

When I drive my new speedster from Vintage Motor Cars, when shifting up the 3rd the traction is great. When driving in 4rd at 90km/hour ~ 55miles/hours it feels likes that is the max safe speed. Over that speed the car is a bit shaking to the left and right. Is that all normal? Or what are you findings around that?

a beginner with just 800km ~ 500 miles on the car.

Carlos

Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Have you had a good shop do a 4 wheel alignment? I’d start there with Danny’s Camber/Caster/Toe In numbers. Also, you may want to play around with tire pressures.



Funny Story: (not really) When I bought my Spyder and drove it home from Chicagoland to NYC, it wandered all over the road. I didn’t do much with it for a few years, then I dropped it off at SE to have some upgrades done.
It wasn’t until I got the car back and swapped out the 165-15’s for 205/60-15 and 195/65-15’s that I realized that the two 4.5” wheels were on one side and the two 5.5’s were on the other.
When I got them properly F/R it handled a LOT better.

And I still have the new ball joints I was going to put on because I thought they must be shot sitting on a shelf.

Last edited by dlearl476

I have the tire pressure test to the advice setting. The car has only 800km ~ 500 miles on it. I ask our mechanic for a 4 wheel alignment. The mechanic noticed that that one of the axle's started to leak, they are fixing that soon, could that have impact on it?

For sure I will ask for a 4 wheel alignment when it goes in for the axle repair.

When I first bought my speedster, I used to travel at a maximum of 65mph on the highways, as that was my comfort level.  The more I drove, the more I got comfortable.    I'm guessing you will as well.  

I recently put 165/15's on my car, switching out the 185/15's. It appears the larger diameter tire (they are slightly over 1" taller) allows the car to travel at higher speeds and lower rpm's.  The new tires are also much more comfortable, but I have traded off cornering ability with the swap.  The steering seems much lighter, as the new tires are 1.25" narrower.  Regardless of the tires I had on my car, I've never experienced any shaking or vibrations.  

With all that said, I'm comfortable traveling at speeds of 80+mph in the car. Someone once asked me if I felt safe doing 70mph.  I told them the way I look at it, I'm dead if I crash at anything over 55mph. (I see these cars as motorcycles with larger fairings)

Your speed is a determination of your comfort level.  Perhaps it's not responsible to go a high rate of speed in these cars (or any older car) as safety wasn't really factored in during the construction of older cars.  Some may say the larger older cars (chevys, lincolns, cadillacs, etc) are safe due to their size.  But I've seen crash test videos that suggest otherwise.

OK, @Carlos P, Here's my 2 cents worth.

I have a full IRS (non-swing arm) car with 205/16" wheels all around.  

All four wheels are original Fuchs (not reproductions) from a 911 (now all 6" wide) and the tires are Michelin something or other running tire pressures of 22 front, 26 rear (yes, they are a tad stiff - I could probably drop a pound or two).

I have had all four wheels/tires "Road Force Balanced" to perfectly dial them in.  It took me almost 20 years to discover this service and get it done and I wonder each time I take her out why it took me so long - It's that good.

I have had a 4-wheel alignment done (1970 VW sedan specs) where the front end caster was set to 6º .  THAT was very important because before that, she wandered, chasing the crest of the lane and any bumps she found.  That made the front end seem squirrely and it wandered a lot, especially with cross-winds.  After a proper alignment and getting the caster between 5º - 7º, she became very stable above 60mph and stays that way all the way up to 100 or so (on the track, of course   ).   It is sometimes still a bit subject to cross winds, but it's a pretty light car so I can live with that and it's minor, to be sure.

I have run a combination of tires of 205/16 front and up to 225 rear (I have a wide body car) and after a proper alignment and caster adjustment I see no highway difference between the larger tires and going down to 205s - It seems to handle similarly on highways with either, but the 225's on the rear REALLY made a positive difference cornering hard on the track.  

So, to summarize;  I feel safe and secure at any reasonable highway speed up to and beyond 85-ish, including riding in the turbulent wake behind a tractor-trailer, given setting my 4-wheel alignment to the 1970 VW sedan specs but adding caster to get to the 5º - 7º range.  THAT made all the difference.

You need more caster than people generally put in their cars. You need something more than a bubble balance on your tires. You need every piece of steering linkage to be "as new" and tightened.

I feel completely fine up to 95. It gets skippy at a buck-ten (not that I'd *ahem* know). At around 100 mph, it's aerodynamics working against you as much as suspension - going faster means setting up the car to be lower. This sets other issues in motion (front caster, and rear camber on an IRS car), but they can be overcome.

If you only feel safe to 55, there's a problem. The car says "speedster" right there on the fenders. It's gotta go faster than a bicycle.

Last edited by Stan Galat

.

Stan, Gordon, and others are right about all the suspension and alignment bits that need to be set up right.

But if the car is jumping around at 55, the very first thing I'd check is tire pressure, especially up front. I once had a tire shop set the pressure to 32 psi, because that's sort of normal for sort of normal cars.

But our cars are very light in the front and need substantially lower pressure if you're going to have any grip at all. If they're not already there, set the fronts to 22 psi at most and see if that makes a significant difference.

.

Yeah, and with all due respect to your Vintage guys, 26/30 is WAY too hard.  As Mitch mentions, 22 front/26 rear MAX and probably a bit less than that.

On the track, where I would be cornering hard, I was at 24/28 and dropped back down to 20/24 on the street.  That seemed about right.

Oh, and BTW, my CMC has been 4-corner weighed at exactly 2,000 pounds so she's a tad pudgy.

@Carlos P posted:

When I drive my new speedster from Vintage Motor Cars, when shifting up the 3rd the traction is great. When driving in 4rd at 90km/hour ~ 55miles/hours it feels likes that is the max safe speed. Over that speed the car is a bit shaking to the left and right. Is that all normal? Or what are you findings around that?

a beginner with just 800km ~ 500 miles on the car.

Carlos

Carlos,

All of what you need to know is in the archives.

Tire pressure: 22 front, 26 rear. Weight in the front; spare tire & tools or add weight. I have 26 pounds added, no spare. 5-6 degrees of caster (add 2 shims to the front beam). Front sway bar. Rear camber compensator.

Your big engine is worthless if you can't drive the car.

Tire width isn't as responsive to pressure as the size of the sidewalls.  That's why a 55 or 60 series (tall and skinny) rides a bit softer than a 40 series (short sidewalls).

Come on, dude, a 55 aspect ratio tire is not "tall and skinny." This is especially so when fit to a chassis designed for an 80-series tire. A 165/80-15 (FKA 590-15, AKA F78-15) is tall and skinny. A 205/60-15, not so much.

If you check the load rating on tires of those respective sizes you'll develop an idea for what sorts of (comically, frighteningly, blasphemously low) PSI are appropriate for use on our plastic clown cars. Your 205mm wide tire is putting down significantly more rubber (i.e. square inches) and therefore will require concomitantly fewer pounds per square inch to support the weight of our mighty conveyances with an amusingly tooth-jarring ride.

Last edited by edsnova

Just to get some contrast data, I looked up some factory tire pressure specs. I'm truly trying to get a grasp on what they might tell us about setting pressures on speedsters/spyders.

2020 Honda Gold Wing (motorcycle)

Curb weight: 800 lbs

Engine: flat 6 cylinder 1833cc - 125hp - mid-engined

Front tire: 130/70R-18 - pressure 36 PSI

Rear tire: 200/55-16 - pressure 41 PSI

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

2017 Smart ForTwo (car?)

Curb weight: 2050 lbs

Engine:  turbo 1000cc - 89hp - Located in rear

Front tire: 165/65-16 - pressure 29 PSI

Rear tire: 185/60-16 - pressure 36 PSI

Last edited by Michael Pickett

Load rating, shmode rating.....If I run my front 205/50’s down below 20 pounds of air, they respond with all sorts of distressed animal-sounding noises while cornering, which doesn’t happen when I pump them up.  Thus far, I haven’t lost any teeth at my current pressures (surprisingly so, for a auld phart with lots of crowns covering up past indiscretions) and still consider that my original premise still holds.  However, a lower pressure will also tend to make the tread curl or ripple given sideways pressure from cornering (as much as an over-powered VW Beetle in wolf’s clothing can induce) and that rippling will cause portions of the tread to lose road contact.

At least that’s what I remember from an ancient, SCCA autocross driver ed class I took in the ‘60’s.  But that was when radial tires had just become popular and the class instructor didn’t believe that they would give better course times.

This chart MAY help you:

https://www.tiresplus.com/tire...re-load-index-chart/

An example would be the tires on my Cayman. Rear are 265/40R18. Load range is 101.

That means the tire will support 1819 pounds at 50 psi max pressure.

Cold pressure is 37 pounds, which is 74% of 50 pounds(or 1346 pounds).

Fronts are 235/40R18 Load range 91at 50 psi. Cold pressure is 30 psi, or 60%(813 pounds).

Doing the math: 813 on each front tire and 1346 max on each rear, so max gross weight is 4318 pounds. The car weighs 2976 dry, so add coolant(2 gallons?), oil(2 gallons), gasoline(15 gallons), and a couple people(max cargo of 419 pounds of people and stuff). There seems to be a fudge factor in there for overloading(maybe by high speed driving?).

The point is, you only need enough pressure to carry the load. My fully loaded Spyder is about half the weight of my loaded Cayman. There might be 700 pounds on my entire front end of my Spyder, that's 350 pounds a tire. That's why the pressures are best run so low on these cars.

@Sacto Mitch wrote: "I think car manufacturer tire pressure recommendations used to be based upon a mix of performance and comfortable ride back in the old days, but now they're based strictly on maxing out fuel economy."

Boy, have you got THAT right!

According to the door sticker in my Nissan Rogue mini-SUV, the official tires are Z-rated.  That means they're rated for 160mph.  I mean, really?  On a diddly little 4-door passenger car?  

Z rated tires are also wicked expensive.  I talked the Town Fair Tire guys into selling me a set of H rated but both the door sticker AND the tire pressure gizmos inside the tires all want to see 36 - 40 psi so I run them at 36 and they give me a low pressure warning once in a while and I pump them up.  The only reason I can see for 40 psi tires is better gas mileage, because the car has always ridden like a board.  My wife's Outback rides much better than the Rogue.

The fastest I have ever driven a vehicle was 138 mph.  This was NOT in my Speedster!

Speed is relative to me...and your comfort level is equally as important as the capability of the vehicle AND your skill level.  I've had my VS up in the 100 mph range on more than one occasion just to see what she could do.  I had plenty of room left to stretch it out in 4th gear (I have a fairly stout 2180) pulling well above 4000 rpm with room to go.  That was on a straight road and I could feel the front end lifting a bit.

My most harrowing experience was in the foothills at maybe 60...I was accelerating into a left hand turn on a slight incline.  As I hit the apex of the turn at the top of the rise the front wheels were turned left...but they had what felt like ZERO contact with the road.  I got off the throttle quick, the front end settled down and the car made a hard left.  To say it was exciting is an understatement!

Since that little burst of adrenaline I've entertained adding weight to the front beam...I've read ways to do that here on a different thread.  I haven't made that update yet, but I have added some weight to the front end using tools, etc.  I entertained adding diving weights down in the battery box but I'm convinced the weight will be too much for the floor to handle so my plan was to basically line the frunk near the wheel well / fuel tank with them.  If I ever get around to doing that I'll post my findings.

.

Posting inflation numbers for other cars is a little apples and oranges, I think.

My old BMW 1600 was a ’68 (and was designed in the early ‘60s - as the 356 was ending production). Its suspension was light years more sophisticated. It did a far better job of keeping the wheels on the ground and in keeping them perpendicular to the road as they worked over the road surface.

The difference in how the car handled, how much grip was available at any time (on relatively skinny 165/70 tires), how ‘planted’ the steering felt, and in how predictable everything was at the limit was enormous compared to my Speedster. By any comparison, the swing axle and beam Speedster suspension is laughable. It’s clearly from another era.

Which isn’t to say it’s not still fun to drive at its  limits, but if you’re used to driving modern cars quickly, you must realize these differences before firing up a Speedster or you’re courting disaster. I had a few puckering moments of my own when I first got the car which sobered me up right quick.

Lower pressures than we’re used to in modern cars will help to increase grip up front and help to counter the lack of weight there, but they won’t make the front feel like a 911 or any competent, modern car.

You simply must understand this about these cars, no matter what you might do to improve them. There are compromises ‘baked in the cake’, as Stan would say, that can’t be completely eliminated.

You can reduce the amount of ‘lightness’ and vagueness in the steering at speed on a rough surface, and you can learn how to handle it, and how far you can go before being in serious trouble, but you will never completely solve the problem without replacing the front suspension with a better design.

.

Hmmm. In the old Orange Speedster we topped it out on I -80 at 133 mph. The car actually had lots of down force at that straight away speed. Not there were practically no cars on the road. It was a rush.
I did drive a Mclaren 570s at 170 mph.
And we just missed the Bonneville  200mph  club  in 2011 with a 198.35 mph run in a 1962 Pontiac tempest  turbo ,injection

@Carlos P posted:

Thank you Jim Gilbert @Jim Gilbert - Madison, Mississippi adding the 26 pounds made huge differences! I drove easily now almost 80 miles hours!

If you just added some weight to the battery box you might want to look at the archives. I have a modification to add steel weights to the front beam down low where it should be.

I have several projects  in the archives that might be of interest. When I do something I post it.

Glad it worked for you.

I've been to the limits of a car's performance at both ends of the spectrum.

When I was just starting out after graduating college, I worked with a Manufacturing Engineering gentleman named Sam Hawley, who owned a 1914 Model T Tourer, the last year of the brass radiator Model T.  

Model T

He lived in West Springfield, Massachusetts, not far from where Ted Geisel (Dr. Seuss) lived and we went to Sam's place for a graduation celebration for one of his grandkids (Sam was a couple of years away from retirement when I first met him).  During the party and as was Sam's habit, he gave anyone who wanted a ride in his Model T so, after all of the kids had had their turns (some more than once), he gestured to me and my wife to hop in alongside him and off we went.  It was smelly, and bumpy, and noisy, and had a lot of wind blowing around - In short, it was a LOT like riding in a Speedster, just 4 feet off the ground!

We went south out of West Springfield headed for Connecticut and as we got away from the neighborhood Sam gets a big smile and says "Hang on, you two, I'm gonna OPEN HER UP!" and off we took, down this back road as the speed increased and the wind blew and the car shook and that little motor was chugging for all it was worth.  Kathy was scared, I was scared, little kids on the side of the road stopped their bicycles and turned and they looked scared (and their dogs turned and headed for the hills as Sam honked the big bulb horn at them).

After maybe a minute that seemed like an hour of wind-blown torture, Sam slowed down to a more normal speed and said, "She really flies, doesn't she?"

Kathy and I were both ashen-faced and just nodded that she did, indeed, really fly, especially when one is sitting almost 5 feet up on a horse wagon that's swaying back and forth and the wheel vibration becomes very harsh above, say, ten miles per hour.  I thought sure we had been doing close to 80mph on that old back road, perched up way high on those Conestoga Wagon-sized wheels, white tires and all, and a little bit of steam coming from the radiator cap that wasn't all that far away out in front of us.

"Geez, Sam.....  How fast were we just going?, I asked.

"She was really wheeling!", said Sam....."But she's all done between 35 and 40!"

*********************************

At the other end of the spectrum was a ride for charity during one of the Hilton Head Island Concours weeks.  For a $150 donation to a specified charity you could get three laps around Roebling Road race course (Not far from Savannah, Georgia) in a new Ford GT with Bobby Rahal at the wheel.  I figured THAT was never gonna happen again so I ponied up my Visa Card and got in line.  

Ford GT

My turn comes, Bobby pulls up to the start/finish line, some really pretty Southern Cheerleader-type lady hops out, I get in and someone helps me with the ( seemed like 27-point ) seat belt harness, the door is closed, we introduce each other ("Oh, you're the guy with that white, racing 356!", says Bobby.  So then I had to tell him what it was and what the engine was, yadda, yadda because he had been watching it go around the track (fast parade laps) and loved the exhaust note, so he said)  

Then, we take off.  Like a friggin' Tomahawk Cruise Missile.  No tire screech, no fish-tailing, just slam you back into the seat acceleration.  We get from the start/finish line to the first right turn in less than 1/4 the time it took me in Pearl, he lets off the gas way later than I ever would have dared, STANDS on the brakes, blips the gas, downshifts two and stands on the gas.  WHAM!  We're off out of that corner like it's a fireball, heading towards the back stretch.  

The back half of Roebling is a few sweepers that get increasingly tighter, then into the final right turn to the front straight.  He heads into each one way deeper than I thought anything could and comes out of the apex with his foot in it, and all the while he's calmly asking me about my car and telling me about how the original GT-40 and THIS Ford GT are so entirely different, like the GT-40 was naturally aspirated and made one helluva lotta noise in the cockpit from the engine in the back seat.  The Ford GT has twin turbos which really block most of the exhaust and intake noise so the cockpit is surprisingly quiet (you can have a conversation at speed).  It also has a very effective traction control system that seems to anticipate your next move and seems to already set up for you before you act.   He's telling me all this while he's calmly negotiating the track in, what I found out later, was the fastest lap time of the day - OK so the other cars were vintage racers, but still - Wicked fast.

As we come around to the front stretch he opens it up and we rocket down the stretch and I watch as the speedo rises up to around 150-ish and he brakes for the right turn.  "152!", says Bobby.  "That's about it for this track.  The front straight is too short before you have to brake for the turn.  Take this car to Daytona or Talladega and it could break 200, for sure.  Ford really pulled out all the stops on this car!"   Meanwhile, I was beginning to get that ashen look again so the next two laps were a bit (OK a LOT) slower, but I was certainly impressed.  I told him my measly 140 HP did OK, but this thing was a whole different concept.  

"Yeah, they're pretty slick.  When they told me I would be driving this around for a day I was tickled.  It's a blast out on the street, to!"

We got back to the start/finish line and I crawled out of the car and found that my knees were weak and I had to stay still for a few moments til things settled down again.  Then one of the track guys took my helmet and said, "Well.....  How was it?"

All I could say was "Holy $#!+"

Attachments

Images (2)
  • Model T
  • Ford GT


We got back to the start/finish line and I crawled out of the car and found that my knees were weak and I had to stay still for a few moments til things settled down again.  Then one of the track guys took my helmet and said, "Well.....  How was it?"

All I could say was "Holy $#!+"

Did you ever see "Ford Vs. Ferrari"? There's the scene where Carroll Shelby takes H. Ford II for a spin the the GT40, and he's reduced to a blubbering child, saying again and again, "I had no idea. I had no idea."

Thanks for the story, Gordon. I'd gladly have whipped out my Visa for a chance to ride shotgun with a real driver in a GT on a racetrack.

I'm a little surprised that the top speed was in the 150s in that car with Rahal driving as I've seen 163 from the passenger seat coming into the breaking zone for turn 1.  I saw it first in a modified Viper GTS and again in  a Porsche 911 Turbo GT.  My little commuter showed 121 at the same point, but it's speedo is a bit optimistic.  Still, going back to your performance envelope statement, it's surprising what a fairly basic can can do now.  What used to be the exclusive territory of high performance cars can now be done by a fairly low-spec sport coupe.

@Gordon Nichols said:

”My turn comes, Bobby pulls up to the start/finish line, some really pretty Southern Cheerleader-type lady hops out, I get in and someone helps me with the ( seemed like 27-point ) seat belt harness, the door is closed, we introduce each other ("Oh, you're the guy with that white, racing 356!", says Bobby.  So then I had to tell him what it was and what the engine was, yadda, yadda because he had been watching it go around the track (fast parade laps) and loved the exhaust note, so he said) “



Another one of my internet friends used to own an Elva-Porsche. He got a call from someone who was interested in buying it. Turns out that someone was Bobby Rahal. The Porsche was his first race car. He bought it and had it completely restored.
https://youtu.be/enDYLVOarhA

Check out the flat fan four cammer.

Last edited by dlearl476

Remember, Lane, that this was supposed to be a moderate thrill ride, not trying to crash with a charity supporter in the right seat. 😵

He got both things right - I got the thrill and he didn’t try to kill me.  I’m good with that.  

That was O. C. Welch’s GT we were in.   That’s the Ford dealership in Bluffton and it was on semi-permanent display in the showroom.  O. C. may still have it (he’s honestly too big to get in and out of it) but it may show up at Roebling again some time, usually during the HHI Concours or the bigger track days.

Hey....  I just found a photo of O. C. Welch and his GT in his showroom.  I bought my diesel pickup there so I can't cast aspersions, but he is kinda big to fit in the GT.  I remember he always had a live goat in his car commercials when we were down there.  That was a little weird.  

But to Stan's post about "The Deuce", Henry Ford II, riding in the GT-40 with Shelby -  O. C. kinda looks like the Deuce, too!  He would really have to contort to get into a car with a roofline at 40" !  I've heard that he sold a couple Ford GTs to people on or near Hilton Head Island - Wouldn't surprise me, considering the neighborhood GDP.

OC welch GT

Attachments

Images (1)
  • OC welch GT
Last edited by Gordon Nichols

But, going back to the original question about how fast.. As a lot of you say, it all depends on the car you have and how it’s been put together. Until recently my car was scary above 60 because of the incorrect tracking and vague steering. Once I’d adjusted the steering box correctly and with the correct tracking, I’m comfortable/safe up to 80, but the car tops out at that point with the short AH gearbox.

Post Content
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×