Hydraulic lifters on sponsored car?

I noticed in the specs for the Vintage Speedsters Sponsored Car:
www.speedsterowners.com/sales/
that it has hydraulic lifters...
I thought that was a no-no for TypeI engines? Something about it being a high-reving boxer-type layout?
Can anyone shed light on this?

I would imagine it's your basic Mexican crate motor with some add-on upgrades; these motors are not known for robustness (ask Jim).

So does that mean hydraulic lifters are not robust in TypeI engines? I saw Intermeccanica offers it as an option on their engine.

(Message Edited 1/6/2003 5:40:37 PM)

IM engines are built from scratch by Pat Downs at CB Performance using quality components; I would imagine that the IM hydraulic lifter cam option is a CB Performance hydraulic cam grind and perhaps different lifters and valve springs. A major difference would be that the CB Perf. camshaft drive gear is bolted to the cam while the Mexican crate engines have the gear riveted on. The Mexican engines also have cast crankshafts, connectng rods, and flywheels, while the corresponding CB engine parts are forged.

Thanks George,
Did you go with hydraulic lifters on your new IM and if not, why?
Thanks!
Bugs


(Message Edited 1/6/2003 7:01:03 PM)

Ditto on George's advice. I'm the Jim he refered to. I spun a cam gear off the cam at 2,000 miles, at 3400 rpm, on an engine that was not abused, ever, and had only seen 4,000 RPM once. It was broken in prpoerly and the oil changes were per book, 300 miles, 800 miles, then at 1500 miles with changes every 3000 scheduled after that. The good news is that the supplier reimbursed me and Kirk at VS was exremely helpful and generous. I would recommend a VS car in a heartbeat.

Now, I have that Hydraulic engine sitting in my shop rebuilt as a back up... still a 1776, but with CB Perf Cam and lifter, plus a Scat c/b'd crank, Mahle Pistons, and lightened flywheel. The heads are still stock, but with heavier springs, and good rockers, and a P&P job. The Cam is about the same grind as an Engle 110, and it's plumbed for external cooler. It has a pair of Kadrons, on a Berg Linkage set up, and my, now, old 1.5" merged with boxes and PhatBoy set up. Ready to pop into my car if I ever get time and other to build a nice 2007 or 2110.

In the interim I run a 1776; new as41 case, CB44 heads with SS Valve, PPd, double springs, E110, Scat Crank and Rods balanced, light flywheel, compufire, 1.5" CPS system. Dual 40 IDFs going on, and boocoo other good parts like Mahle Pistons, Heat treated straight cut cam/crank gears, Berg Oil vent/filler filtering system, 1.5 qt sump, external cooler on Melling pump, yada. It runs very nice for a mid level engine. The 3:88 R&P really makes it nice on the road.

If I bought that car, I would negotiate a deal for the new 1641 traded back to Kirk in exchange for a 'built' 1776 from CB. Or, get Downs to freshen up that 1641 to a Hydro 1776 with good parts.... with all the other options on the car for free you will still come in with a killer car for the bucks! I could see this car being a sweet kicker for another 1500-2500 depending on what all you did to the engine..

One other thought. Kirk is like gold on his warranties and customer care. Maybe just buy it 'as is', and drive it a year while building another engine by getting parts, and a new case, and take your time, If the 1641 goes, it's warrantied. If not, sell it and recomp a nice rebate towards your replacement engine. I'm telling you that car is a sweet deal. Stan G and John H on this forum have the Mexican 1600/1776 hydros, and no failures....... baby it, then sell someone a turnkey motor on this forum or the Samba..... then put in what you want when you want. Again, I highly recommend doing biz with Kirk at VS I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Jim


(Message Edited 1/6/2003 7:36:02 PM)

Jim,
You've got a really sensibly built mid-performace engine there, and are right on with your advice. But I'd like to clarify one point... the engines John and I have are not hydraulic lifter crate motors. They are rebuilds, and have E110 cams and solid lifters, along with a few other standard improvements over a stock motor. I've got stainless valves and a few other minor upgrades, but otherwise the engine is pretty mild.

I've think I've decided on an IM and will ask them about the hydraulic lifter option. I plan on driving up to their facility soon. I want to spend as much time driving the car and not adjusting valves and replacing points. :-)

Note that the VW hydraulic lifters are limited to milder camshafts due to valve spring limitations; performance valve springs with higher tensions will not allow the lifters to "pump up".

Hi Stan,
I believe you are correct about my 1776cc not having hydraulic lifters. Since I bought the car used and the seller was not exactly a fountain of information, I do not know much beyond the displacement and the single carb arrangement. How did you come by the other information? Is this what Kirk does with the 1776cc upgrade? Just curious.
Thanks
John H

John H,

I suppose I should pay more attention to what I'm reading before I post. I thought I was talking about John Leader and my engines in reply to Jims post- both are JPS cars built at the same time. We both have the same engines- 1776 solid cam motors (E110 cam), cast pistons, lightened flywheels, 009 distributers with comp-u-fire electronic conversions, remote oil filters, and dual ICTs. I've got stainless valves, John L does not. We've both got 3.88 ring and pinions, with a .89/1 4th gear- I turn about 3000 rpm at an indicated 60 mph.

I think John uses Serranno (sp)in LA for his Type 1 motors, and Kirk uses Strictly Foreign in Oregon for his 1776, but I could be wrong.

Hydraulic+ aircooled engine= YUCK.

Jake, are the hydraulic lifters "yucky" because of reliability issues? Performance limitations? Other?
Thanks!

Hydraulic lifters in an aircolled ..........not !

While the initial "sell" of utlizing them to avoid pesty valve adjustments .......... consider that if and when one fails you are looking at a total shortblock engine teardown....... inclusive of splitting the case open to get to the offending lifter.
To reasssemble you are looking at a basic rebuild including new main bearings and so forth.

Alan Merklin

Hydraulic lifters in an aircooled ..........not !

While the initial "sell" of utlizing them to avoid pesty valve adjustments .......... consider that if and when one fails and it will in time, you are looking at a total shortblock engine teardown....... inclusive of splitting the case open to get to the offending lifter.

To reasssemble you are looking at a basic rebuild including new main bearings and so forth.

Alan Merklin

Of of the good VW engine builders that I've talked to say the same thing...don't go with hydraulic lifters. All are talking from personal experience.
Ron

Hey Jake, your responses are getting to be very short and succinct...almost poetic. Don't go Hake-Ku on us. I enjoy your 'full meal deal' responses.
Ron

Those long responses are only good for getting me in trouble! No more trouble, its just not worth it.

After all the negative feedback on the Hydraulic engines I would like to throw an intriguing question for anyone... If the rate of failure on these motors is prone to be on the high side, why would VS use them on their cars when the call back would be a hindrance to both VS & the customer?
BTW...I believe (& have experienced) that Kirk is a very honest & smart business man.~R

I think that is a question you need to ask him.

Article on CB Performance hydraulic lifter cams:
vwtrends.primediaautomotive.com/vw_trends_howto/009467ah/009467ahb.pdf

CB Performance website:
www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=57


(Message Edited 1/10/2003 11:45:50 AM)

George,
I did and he did not express the negative opinion that is reflected in the forum. Kirk also did mention that these motors are being used in Mexico and Brasil, logging thousands of trouble free miles.
I believe Jim's motor was the only posted here that experienced premature failure and perhaps the more realistic approach here would be to survey the overall rate of failure amongst the owners with Hydros. Probably not feasible but it would prove exactly how they are holding up in the real world.~R

Rick, there have been some negative postings about the Mexican engines on the cal-look forum, too.

George,
Thanks for the info. If I don't sell her this Spring or Summer for Xtreme lack of use & IF the MexBra blows, it's Pat or Jake time for me.~R

Anyone with a CB Performance engine with hydraulic lifters have any problems with your engine?