It's Green, vol. II

OK, I'm going to do this for Tom. The Coupe is off the CA, and we all await the return, and a new thread is in order. I think it would be good if Tom could list of all the things that were not right (JPS's punch list, as it were), and what it was that finally drove JPS to take this drastic (IMHO) approach. Was the breaking point the too-high crank case pressure and the oil going all over the place? And while we're at it, I fully understand Tom's position that the deal needs to be on John Steele. Is he going to be a stand-up guy, or not?

PS: I am still sorting. So far it is a bunch of little things in my car that reflect poor Q/A at the Motorworks. I am satisfied, so far, to be the guy doing the R&R, and so learning about my car. The list is long, and really should not be. When I get to the end, I'll post up the long sad tale on my own thread.

Tom, the truth is that John really doesn't have the much interest in the outcome. A lot of builders quit caring after they get the last check. They don't care about any bad press or posts, because it will get lost in the thousands of other posts. On top of that some noobies have the nerve to post like they actually know something, when in reality they know nothing. They give crummy advice that shows how little they really know, but you don't realize that they don't know anything. Hey where is the guy who thinks the rating system means something, this car is overall a 9....LOL

To anyone and everyone....before you buy a car from anyone, talk to people who recently purchased a car from the company. And even more important talk to someone who purchased from that company and no longer owns that companies car. They are going to give you the truth without fear of reprisal or lack of support.

You have made a mistake, now your following it up with another mistake....your still not listening to the most valuable source of information on this site....the people with prior experience and are no longer owner's of that manufacturer's car. Sure there are people with an agenda at times but there is always some truth in what they are saying.

Your doing things based on some incorrect assumptions, an it is only going to serve to frustrate you more. I swore to not post on the other thread as my posts aren't usually appreciated in matters like this, but hey this is a new thread, so I just had to say somthing.

Is 256 a record???

Steve,
I still own my JPS and I love it. I've had a lot of problems with it and have gone the route that Tom is going as well as what Kelly is doing. Stan did as well. We both posted concerns BEFORE the cars were shipped and Stan tried to press the point before Tom shipped his back.
Deaf ears.
John Steele will try to make things better. It just won't be to the level you want.
I'll say it again, find a good mechanic in your area. Set up a dialouge between JPS and said mechanic. Get to know your car and do what you can yourself.
I've owned my car for four years and I'm still working out problems. but I drive the shit out of it and fix things as they come up.
One last comment. Regarding the breather box. Order one from Intermeccanica. They're twice the size as the one you'll get from JPS.

"One last comment. Regarding the breather box. Order one from Intermeccanica. They're twice the size as the one you'll get from JPS."


I can't say whose breather is bigger or better, but I very highly recommend a big breather with #10 hoses from both valve covers as well as a hose from the oil fill tube to the breather. In my case I have a sealed breather used as an oil separator and then vented with a 4th hose to a carb top.

I also very highly recommend using a sand seal with appropriate pulley on any type 1 engine other than stock. BugPack sells a type that can be hand pressed into a (unmachined)case that provides the seal.

A standard VW case depends upon a slight vacuum from the breather to the carb. A slight amount of air will flow through the front (rear) of the case around the crank pulley keeping oil from running out.

With larger bores and strokes and higher RPMs the stock approach is wholely inadaquate. Most of the larger engines develop a positive crankcase pressure that will force oil out around the crankshaft pulley. The larger engines require a much larger breather IMHO, and the sand seal has really helped me on several large engines. Both address the pressurized crankcase and subsequent oil leakage that happens on a very high percentage of larger / higher performance engines.

Both Porsche engines as well as Type IV engines have such a seal....by the way....

Steve has some good points...My program is based on my experience over the years. I put monies away for commissioning a car after purchase. You know the car won't be perfect. A new car requires at least wheels ,exhaust,engine mods, sound system etc. For my SAS car I have 5 grand set aside. A IM car cost at least 20 K more than the base built cars so there is justification for spending some money after delivery. Having planned on spending money and time up front makes it less stressful for me during those first few shake out cruises...

Steve-I find it interesting that you bash the registry on all levels. Is it not based on peoples experience with various car makers? I would agree that any car that is older then 5 yrs you cannot take as a valid critique because it is subject to owner use.However for a new purchase. Why would it not be valid? For example IM had the most 10's on the registry. It appeared that the only time they did not get a 10 was for older vehicles(again subject to owner use or abuse). JPS had some 10's as well but what was interesting was the 3 or 4 yr cars(new purchases) seemed to come in higher than the 06 or 07 cars.So as a newby should you not use this as a guide and then talk to some of this people in more depth regarding their experiences? A mechanic that likes to work on cars might not be as concerned with little defects as that person could easily fix them.But a person that is interested in a turn key vehicle who does not do his own work and has spent 30 grand might come to some clear conclusions. From what I've read so far it seems I would be better off saving my money and going for an IM or If I don't mind waiting an SAS.If you're going to pay less then expect that the workmanship will not be as good. Kelly and Tom's experiences seem to bare this out. If they went oon the registry I'm sure they would not be giving JPS a 10 at this point.

Hi, Paul.
The wait time versus build quality consternation here seems only to apply to cars which are expected to be novel. Maybe I'm off the mark, but I think everyone who wanted to see if JPS could pull off the coupe project was anticipating that car's arrival (especially here on the Right Coast) sooooo long that we thought it surely HAD to be free of defects.
When it wasn't -- and I can only speak for myself on attachment to the idea of a coupe -- we started lining up and looking for things wrong with Tom's car.
The tragedy in that was that the other turn-key on the trailer, Kelly's Speedster, is ALSO not free of defects. In fact, although those two guys are being polite enough not to publish laundry, they're LITTERED with little things that one unbiased, third party quality-control guy could have IDd within 500 miles.
I now know that JPS is not a company I'd like to do business with, but I was also one of the first to stick my head inside of both. They LOOK fantastic. Both cars, to my eye, are better-looking outside than the originals they represent. Unfortunately, they're not up to spec.
My opinion.

Paul your getting there, after a couple of years, you will understand completely. It is largely about learning what to expect and planning for those things. Guthrie has the proper expectations and will have an easy time of it, but I would like to think that is partially because I have put a lot of effort towards that end, but maybe not.

Terry, I agree completely. For YOU, and your expectations you are very happy with the car. Others may not be, but if they do their homework correctly and not depend on something like the registry scores then the builders and owner's will all be better off. I never meant to say anything negative about JPS at all, because again, I have never owned one, and by my own criteria my opinion about their cars would mean nothing. It means a little more if I owned one, and means the most if I had owned one, but no longer do.

So while your opinion has value in regards to JPS, it doesn't have anywhere near as much value as Stan's, that's just the way I see it in this public forum format. Right or wrong, that is my advice to people on these forums. Now if I was trying to say something about JPS itself, which I really wasn't, then my opinion would have even less value then yours, and may in fact be completely irrelevant.

Corey-Thanks for responding. In regard to JPS or any other maker other than IM or SAS who offer turn key vehicles let me state this. Naturally If any of these companies can deliver a turn key car with either no or minimal defects all the better. I'm particularly interested in JPS because they are, along with SAS, the only company producing the coupe right now. The cars look beautiful,JPS has a great web sight,.Certainly if the bugs can be worked out why not buy from JPS! You're saving 20 grand on the price compared to IM. But my point was that I still think the registry has some value as a starting point for any newby. Isn't the point to try research and get advice to try and avoid the pitfalls that other people have experienced?

Paul generally speaking after 5 years of being involved with these car's, this forum, and the people in all of the areas, I would say the registry score does tell you something, but it certainly doesn't tell you what to expect and which manufacturer you should have build your car. It depends to much on you, and what you expect and plan to do with the car.

You seem to still want to value the scoring system. The scoring system should be removed completely from this site in all honesty....it's misleading to the people who actually look at it, and annoying to those of us who understand how it doesn't work. If the Theron wanted to give people a scoring system that truly meant anything, it would have to be completely revamped. All start a new thread on that, and you can watch with amusement at how little anyone really cares.

Paul, I've got to say that I was so completely ignorant of CMC's reputation that I bought one without any research whatsoever. It still got me around for a couple years, but I ultimately decided to build it over again the way I wanted it.
I think Steve's on the right track in suggesting that an owner's perspective, while biased toward a large chunk of capital sitting in the driveway, isn't the gospel truth about a brand. I would say, however, that several owners' opinions on what they've bought, built or commissioned could be the basis for a trend analysis -- if you've narrowed the focus to one or two brands already. I sure wish I'd have even done THAT little bit of research.
Instead, I found out about the site when I began having problems with my car and needed tech help. I think I searched Google for CMC, came across Curt Scott's name, wrote him, and he sent me here.
Looking back, that was the dumbest money I've ever spent (the initial purchase), and it cost far, far more to remedy than it would have to buy a partial kit and go from zero. In contrast, the money I donate every year has helped me archive photos of my build -- some of which serve as a beacon of warning to others.

The rating system needs to go away....It only serves one purpose.....to irritate people....We should be able to vote to remove from our site......

Kelly is rating his a 9.4 I'm not saying that is wrong, I'm saying it doesn't tell you what you think it does.

Go read his thread, and decide if you think it is a 9.4 to you, I think you will understand how it doesn't work, when your done.

Oh my god, Curt Scott!!!! What I find most hilarious about Curt is that he may have started out with the best of intentions, but he is a complete sell out.

It's funny how much press he gives some people, while others, he won't say a single nice thing about. I once read his little tidbits and guidelines, and one was to email someone and see how they respond and that would tell you a lot about who they are and what kind of people they are....LOL.....so I emailed him....he never responded....if you advertise, I will publish you, is their theme song.

Rating system: wrt my rating, the jury is still out. If you read the words attached in the limited space available, I think I have captured what I have seen/experienced w/ JPS so far. The whole deal is a work in progress, so as promised, I will amend my rating/opinions when all done. FWIW, I am not at all sorry I have this particular car, built by this particular builder. While I am not happy that the car is not perfect in every way, it does appear to be basically what I bargained for. No, I do not know all there is to know about all the builders (that's what this site aspires to: to help us all come to that level of awareness, if we so choose)and what dirty laundry is available for each of them. I am sure there is some for all, even the exhaulted Henry.

Kelly, we were keeping Henry's secret from you until now.
He lives in Canada, and he's a Canadian. Don't tell anybody.

AND, He is one the the Industry's good guys. Ive been dealing with him for over a year now, as some of you know. Ive been to his shop, met numerous customers, driven their cars. Exalted? There are many good reasons. You gets what you pays for! And in the case of others, sometimes you dont!

AND THERE IT IS....didn't take long did it Paul. I'm sorry to have ruined it for you so early, but as you can see, it isn't about trying to provide useful information and telling you the good and the bad. It's about just telling you how great someone is, well that's what their doing with the rating system. Just telling you the good....god forbid Howard would have said something like....yea I have spent about 600 dollars maintaining my car this year.....that would be great information.....nah....just tell them how great it is rather then give any real information. Thank you Howard for making this so quick and painless for me and proving my point so well.....Paul, I don't believe Howard even has his car yet????....but look at his pictures....man it is seriously a cool color and he is doing some really neat things!!!!!

Well-Certainly it is my wish that kelly and Tom have a satisfactory solution to their car problems. Also it will be interesting to see what number Kelly's 9.4 ends up with. I think though I can see Steve's point though. Kelly may give it a 9.4. However if Kelly has owned these cars before then he may be more tolerant than I would be.If this had happened to me being a newbie I might have scored it it a bit lower because of the problems encountered.So then if you redo the resgistry rating system do you do it this way.
Excellent/Good/Fair/and Poor with definitions to justify each catagory. Or do you not have any registry at all.Rather you wait to have someone chime in on this sight to volunteer their experience. Is it wrong to get a consensus of opinion when deciding which company you want to have build your car? Perhaps I'm being a bit too cautious.

If I end up selling my car, I will change the registry to reflect the ultimate 10 before listing it!

No such thing as too cautious, Paul.
It's been said here before, and bears repeating, that a potential owner should come to a major event first, see, touch and maybe drive a few -- and most of us will allow that -- before you plunk down the old nest-egg on a major piece of property.
You really ought to put your hands on one of these and talk face-to-face to some owners in a setting where you can see who did what with these cars. Everyone likes to talk about that thing they brought -- you need to keep asking the questions and focus in on why you would want one in the first place.

Let me take an honest look at my Classic Motor Carriages (pre-modification):
Reliability? Depends entirely on whether the individual who bought the car in kit form knew what he was doing. The person who assembled mine didn't have too many things right, and I was left stranded right out of the box.
Overall styling? Depends on what level of bodywork was done, and whether or not corners were cut on the pieces as they were installed. In the case of my car, there were a lot of corners cut, like the welds that were holding the front of the pans to the back. Terrible. I could see the road at the seam, and pass a basketball through the hole near the pedals.
Power? Nope. None at all, outside of maybe 45 horses. Those suffered from a prior super-studding of the right bank of cylinders which was busy failing. It sounded like a Sikorski, not a Volkswagen.
Customer service? None. The company is defunct -- although there have been several attempts to return to the marketplace under different names. All my research led me to the conclusion that I needed to streamline my car, concentrate on a re-do and stop tinkering with little things as they came up. Then I needed a VW mechanic -- or a priest.
Maintenance costs? About $70/mo., when it was still a somewhat roadworthy CMC. Gas, tires and oil; through concerned neglect, it only got worse. I am happy to report it was still relatively cheap, even in the nickel-and-dime phase. It wasn't a fancy car, and I didn't buy new parts.
Mileage? Difficult to tell. The gauges supplied with my car sucked. I'd say it was somewhere in the 20K odo range, but I have no idea how many miles were on the chassis. I'd guess it was a Beetle on its last mechanical legs before it got hacked into a Speedster. Later on, as we began re-doing the whole car, the structural metal we kept was all in fantastic shape under 30 years of crud. The black chassis was still shiny, even under all that dirt.
Fuel economy? Between 20 and 25 mpg with a stock 1641 which later died and got thrown away.
Pan or tube chassis? Was a pan car, cut and welded wrong, with giant holes in the floor. There wasn't a lot of Beetle metal left in the floors, which had been re-panned (is that a word?) three times.
Initial outlay? $16K for a piece of crap.
Recovery? More than I'd care to admit. I am now in IM-land, plus a few grand.
Fun? More than the law allows. The trade-offs from the CMC being hundreds of pieces of garbage flying in close formation (and I'm sure I bought the worst possible example; there are stellar cars out there that people put REAL effort into) included not having to worry about taking it to the beach, leaving it parked at a meter on a busy street, water damage from leaving the top down or even lookey-loos poking at the torn-up seats. It was a fun car when I needed to be impractical following a divorce.
I'm not the bottom line, or even an expert. My demands for my car grew as I got more and more attached to it. But I think I can safely say that most used CMCs lend themselves to improvement of some kind, and they're rarely done with an eye toward luxury.
I don't know anything I could publish about anybody else's car, except that I firmly believe that I had the absolute barrel-scraper on this site at one time.
I also believe it's a long, long way from that now.
Does that help any?

...we should do a rating ONLY after you've owned and driven your Speedy/Spyder for a year (or some fixed time frame) and include what it cost to operate for that year (fixes/maintenance)! This might offer more useful/objective info. I think one of the car mags does this (Road & Track or ?).

...I'm just saying...

It does help Corey. I may be a little gun shy because I've owned used Alfa's that were 20 to 25 yrs old. I put a lot of money into them to keep them running. The parts vendors in some cases sold replacement parts that were simply junk at times. I was able to do a little work myself regarding keeping the L-jetronic fuel injection system running well and keeping the car running. Most of my problems were underneath the car such as transmission Guibos,twin plate clutch problems,inboard disk brake issues,having to replace the water pump every 25 k miles,as well as timing belt,and valve job. All this stuff I had to pay for. It became a real bone of contention with my other half and after 6 yrs and 3 Alfa's I had to go for more conventional cars. I miss those cars though. But I have to say though that looking at this sight for the past few weeks has really opened up my eyes to another way to enjoy cars.(Own a replicar). These cars have classic styling. It also brings back memories when I was a kid.My Father owned 3 Porsches,1960 1600 Cabriolet(silver,red leather,a 66 911(red with black leather upolstry,wooden steering wheel and dash,and a 1978 911SC(white with red leather).The 1600 and early 911 were bought new,the 78 SC was bought from a periodontist we knew personally who owned it for over 20 yrs. I think your right I need to go to some gatherings and drive one of them. Unfortunately I live in New Mexico so I guess I would have to fly somewhere. However i will probably go that route first.

You'd be ahead of the game in one respect. At least the air-cooled cars are German.
If you're ever in the DC/Baltimore/Philly area, there are a storng cadre of owners here, with most makes represented.
It's probably a short/cheap hop on Southwest to get to San Diego, though, and God knows those guys fire 'em up to go down the driveway for the morning paper.
Any excuse, right. But they're probably your best bet.

The builder I selected was carefully considered. As I said, the best way to begin the project is talk to the people who own, build cars. Read between the threads, see the cars, drive them. Only then will you know what's right for you. Im happy with my choice because of due diligence, and I didn't want to walk into a nightmare situation as some of done. I'll give you more info when I do get my car. Unvarnished truth, pros and cons. The ONE thing I do know, without doubt is that the builderwill stand behind his car. Custom cars will always need attention, its the nature of the car. Deal with it or buy an everyman's car off a showroom floor.

Tom,

Do you know who made the fan shroud on your coupe? Looks great!

Hmmm, looks like Tom is out of pocket, anybody have any idea who makes the engine cooling / fan shroud that is on Tom's car?

The fan shroud on Tom's car was ordered as an option done by JPS engine builder, however, I don't know who's the builder... sorry.

Thought it was a Raby DTM, at least that is what it looks like to me. I thought he (Raby) is/was the only one who makes/sells these, but I don't really know about the total scene.

And WHERE IS TOM?? Anybody have a clue? We have invited him to make posts here, and I've sent e-mails, all w/out reply. Maybe he's on a nice European holiday??

It's not a Raby DTM. It's the shroud you advertised in the back of "Hot VWs" magazine by any one of about 10 places.

It is not a DTM for certain, I have one of those myself. Looking at a photo of the engine in Kit Car Builders feature article , it appears to be a one piece fiberglass cooling shroud for use with a conventional VW assembly fan, hence my interest. Perhaps what I am seeing in the picture is missleading, but from all I can see it is not similar to anything being sold by the usual gang of vendors.

I of course could be wrong...anybody see Tom's engine in person?

Far be it for me to let an off track thread get back on track, so I have a comment about the rating system. After finding out my transmission was installed very poorly on a number of fronts, I think that the rating system is missing one criteria that should be in bold letters across the top.. Original Owner (Y/N). If your not the original owner, such as myself, I can't tell if Henry and his engine installer did this stuff wrong, or if some shmoe calling himself an air cooled mechanic did it in the last 4 years. As everything else on the car is absolutely perfect in every way, I just don't have the right or the cajones to start bad mouthing IM for this problem. There in lies the issue I have.. if I was the original owner and was 6 months into ownership, had this issue, and could go to Henry about it, I would have a right to talk up or down about the car and IM based on that interaction, and I already know it would have been a satisfying result. I still can't help but move my reliability number down a notch or two. 8K miles and new clutch and pressure plate is just plain disturbing, but in the end, my rating shouldn't be about the manufacturer, just the car I bought.

The End.

James

So now you know to consider the source -- that would be me. I have seen this engine up close, and also some pics of it from the prior "Green" thread while it was on the bench. Just shows I don't know ass from elbow wrt doghouses . . .

And where is Tom?

Sorry guys . . . been working way too much, traveling for business and just generally outta touch . . . also had a minor altercation between an SUV & my speedy last week.

Shroud is not a Raby DTM. Frankly I do not know who makes it and as with Eddy I do not know who engine builder is. JPS is not forthcoming with that info . . . I have asked. John Steele says they build thier own in one breath and calls them the "engine builder" as in someone else - another company - in the next. Part of the standard JPS double speak. So . . . I'm not much help other than to say in my limited experience driving the car - it never over heated - even in very very hot humid PA August weather during stop & go with the AC pounding. So I guess it works very well.

BTW Geen Hornet is due to come back next week. Still duking it out over some issues. We'll see. Kelly - how are you making out???

Darned SUVs. You and the Speedster recovering?
Hope she's not too dorked up.

Will the Speedster recover quickly (I hope)?

thanks Tom for the response on the cooling shroud....

Jim

saw the green hornet today. body damage was repaired and you could never tell

Cory,

speedy will be fine - minor damage - all will be repaired this week. No injuries. Just missing the best top down weather waiting for the repair. Yhanks for askin.