JPS - one unhappy customer's advice.

DO NOT BUY A JPS !!!!! DO NOT BUY A JPS!!!!!!!!!!!

John Steele is a man without integrity!!!! He does not live up to his commitments! I have experienced this many times - yet again at Carlisle when he failed to show up to look at my car as promised MULTIPLE TIMES.

All I have ever wanted from JPS was for this car to work. Is that unreasonable?

John Steele considers his cars "used VWs" (read one of his latest emails to me below). So understand what you are really buying in John Steele's eyes - a used VW! Nothing more.

I have tried to be reasonable. I have tried to give JPS every opportunity to help. Result is always half-hearted and produces poor results.

BEWARE. You WILL be on your own. I have been promised many many things and received 1/10th of what was promised.

Warranty - forget it. How good is it if JPS won't help you or find someone to help you?

Following is what John says to me despite NOT EVEN taking 10 minutes to meet me and look at the car as he promised he would do (multiple times) at Carlisle last weekend (both on Saturday and Sunday):
"Because, I have seen the abuse that you have done to that car and I paid for mistakes you made already, even giving you a discount on the purchase price because I believed you would understand about owning a kit car especially one as complicated as yours. I have tried everything you asked within reason to help you with the car. Now it is your turn to meet me halfway. I am still willing to help but if you think legal action over a used VW is necessary go ahead."


John P. Steele JPS Motorsports, Inc.
11323 Vanowen St.
North Hollywood, CA 91605
(818) 985-8891
www.jps-motorsports.com

The abuse he talks about refers to brake rotors that overheated because they do not cool very well with drum skins on (How should I know that?) & a nerf bar that was torn off the first time I drove it because they were never test fitted for clearance by JPS. The discount was to honor the price he quoted me in writing and I had to fight for weeks to get him to honor.

I LOVE THIS CAR. IT IS MY DREAM CAR OR LEAST IT COULD BE, but it has been an abomination thanks to JPS.

NOW John wants to ship the car back to JPS again (at my expense). He wants me to spend more money on this expensive piece of junk that needs a total going over. How do I meet him halfway when he won't even look at the car first hand when he has the chance? How do I trust him to fix it when he did not do it last time it was sent back? Why should I spend more money to fix what should not be a problem at all????

Does this look like an abused car?
Be sure to check out the result of driving home 90 MILES in the rain. 4 inches of "Lake Steele" water came off my floor into my 12X12 SHOP VAC CONTAINER!

BEWARE. UNLESS YOU LIVE IN JPS PROXIMITY YOU WILL GET STUCK WITH LITTLE OR NO WAY OUT.

There is much much much more to this story. All documented in hundreds of emails. I have tried to work quietly & constructively, but it is not and has not been working. So I am going public with my advice. John Steele is an arrogant and unreasonable man to try to do business with. Nothing is ever his responsibility and he does not do much of what he says he will do. Many of my problems persist from the beginning with no resolution strategy from John Steele.

BY THE WAY - John says water damaged carpet is NOT covered under warranty.

You really are "upset" In one sentence you state you love the car and in another, you call it a piece of junk.
( a true love/hate relationship )

Sorry to hear you're having these kinds of problems.

Amazingly JPS has a NO record with the Calif Better Business Bureau. Be sure to file a complaint with them. Businesses hate open, unresolved complaints offically filed against them - its bad for business.

http://www.la.bbb.org

i really feel bad for you.

the body was new, but wasnt the chassis indead, used?

i know in your mind it should be a perfect car, and i have no idea how much money you paid for it, but it is a fiberglass body, hand built car built by a small shop. it is not even in the same category as IM (who pumps out many more times the cars).

judging from your post - i bet both of you are sorry you ever met each other.

Hey Jim, come on over here and get a load of this thread, oh, and by the way, put some popcorn on, this may get interesting....
Sure, I'll take a beer.....(I'm trying to cut back on the scotch)

Sounds like a terrible experience. John Steele sounds like a shoemaker.

Tom,
Have you determined where the water is getting in? Maybe a local body shop or auto glass company can help instead of shipping accross country. It's a shame it leaks; such a pretty car!

Vince:

Scotch has way less calories than beer - remember that...

You always hate to see someone pay good money for their dream car (and how many of us really like the looks of a 356 coupe?) and then see the dream turn to a horror show because the builder gives them far less than they contracted for.

Sure, Steele's cars are built on a "used" VW pan, which is reconditioned to "as new" condition by either VS (who he gets his pans from often) or JPS. That means that you trash everything except the central tunnel and transmission horns and put in all new stuff (how else would it have disk brakes on it??)

For Steele to say that this is a "used VW" is ludricrous and he knows it. He's just trying to get out of the legitimate expense of making the less-than-acceptable product that he delivered live up to what he promised, which was a "new", problem-free 356A coupe.

It's too bad, too, because we've seen him deliver some (apparently) high quality, show winning cars to others (always, seemingly, to customers nearby on the West Coast where they drop in often during the build to make sure he's not cutting corners). I guess the reality is that if you're not sitting in his shop daily or weekly watching him every step of the way he'll whip something shoddy out to say it's done, get your last check, push it out the door (literally, if Tom and Kelly's cars are any example) and walk away. You are left asking yourself; "Why in hell does he DO that??"

I think 356 Replica Owners and future Replica owners deserve a hell of a lot better treatment after spending the far side of Thirty Grand for a NEW car.

You wouldn't get that from Beck or IM or SAS or even Vintage, so why should we put up with it from JPS?? (and let's not forget Eddy Karyadis' JPS Coupe catching fire on the way to Morro Bay - but I guess that was Eddy's fault, for driving his new car, right??)

Time to get the word out.

By the way, Tom's was built on the JPS tube frame, not a pan.

i was gunna say - that tunnel looked a little low.

Holy Heck! It looks like all the fun is not the only thing I missed Sat. & Sun. at Carlisle! Go figure!

~WB

Tom,
Sorry about your problems. It's no fun to expect one thing and get another.
But here's the bottom line.
This is OLD NEWS.
Go back and read past threads on this.
You can rant and rave, threaten legal action, Hell, fly into LA and stand in front of JPS with a sign stating Steele's a crook!
You might get some satisfaction out of it, you will definitely spend some more money.
I've said this before. Cut your losses. Fix the car yourself. Take advantage of those around you who have offered to help. Make it your car.
I know that's not what you signed up for but it's what you have.

Almost forgot,
For the record, it is a used car.
Before the build is started, the "donor" car is registered in the customer's name.
Then JPS (or Vintage) builds a replica using the customer's car.

Providing a new 'used-car' (kit on older VW chasis or whatever) is one thing...

While in Carlisle, telling a customer face-to-face to come back in the morning to the JPS display area to discuss his concerns with that 'used-car', is another thing...

Then to skip out the back door to avoid making contact with that customer is BullS**t, ChickenS**t, or any other term for cowardice!

JPS has shown to be very capable of building excellent, show-quality cars (as manifested by Gerd's car and others). JPS has also shown his generous side by lending his personal Speedster for use by out-of-town visitors. It's easy to be a supportive mfg when things go well, the true test of character & integrity comes when thing don't go as smoothly.

On a final note;

1.) I've personally seen the #1 JPS coupe at Carlisle (so-so finish).

2.) I've personally seen Tom Dewalt's JPS Coupe (saw many sub-standard quality issues).

3.) I've personally seen Eddy Karedys JPS Coupe burst into flames (might be a point of concern).

4.) I've also seen the other light green JPS Coupe in SoCal. The owner had to climb in the car on the passenger-side because the driver-side door handle was not functional.

In light of my personal observations of these JPS Coupes, I would suggest the following applies...

90% of all JPS Coupes are still on the road...the other 10% actually made it home!

...I'm just saying...

A "Shoemaker", made me laugh. I have an old school Italian father-in law and that's one of his favorite lines. It's much funnier with an accent too(shumaka)

A good business person does what he says and says what he does. It's really pretty simple.


Marty G.

First ,it is way out of line to state that a hand crafted speedster is a used VW. as Gordon stated the only items retained is the center tunnel and wishbone rear suspension..... a bucket of crap that is.

I have constructed 15 speedsters and owned / built a total of 39 various kit replica's, two street rods so I feel I have enough knowledge to chime in here. I have inspected Tom's JPS coupe and it is not something that would exit my back yard hobby shop. Poor construction , poor trim work, poor sealing and now it's a smoking crop duster.

A couple of years ago, I was retained and dispatched by Steele to perform warranty work for JPS on "Neil's" speedster in NW PA. Upon inspection, I found this speedster to a less than craftsman like build. I hope Neil reads this I know he can add his own validation .

Tom, I will stand behind you though this and certainly more than willing to be a witness in any part of an action(s) that you proceed with.

Mr. Steele, I know in fact that you DO read these posts, do the right thing and make this right at your expense. A satisfied customer is your best advertisement. As you are well aware, this venue has potential for your future client base.

~ Alan

Man, this totally sucks! I

Tom, keep this thread going, it will do far more damage to JPS than he can imagine. The only problem is not everyone is on the net, and not everyone listens. Good luck legally, I hope you win.

When do you want to start making it yours? Let me know, will bring wrenches!

Hey guys it's getting a little personal w/ all the " shoemaker " talk

Where is Max Zimmer in all of this??

Cory says he would probably say something like: "Hey myaan, whuts wrong with the greeen jelly beeean?"

Maybe somebody should give ol' Max a call ...

He can sure reach an audience!

Boy this is disturbing! I was on this sight about 6 months ago.I left and came back. I find these cars appealing. They look really cool and I've read they drive better then the original ones. I am still considering buying one. It is normal to want to find out about what they cost and which company makes a good one. IM appears to be the best but the most expensive.A stripper speester appears to start at or above 40 grand. Then you have Vintage,Beck,and Thunder Ranch offering products in the mid 30's reasonably optioned out. You then have SAS that also offers a mid 30 product but with a water cooled Subaru engine as standard. The concept appears to offer some maintenance advantages over the others. All the companies appear to offer a warranty (although I'm unsure about IM) and offer good customer service. Then you get to JPS. Great websight. Also offers the clearest info on products and prices. They also seem to be the cheapest. A well optined car for under 30 grand. This leads me to want to say 'you get what you pay for".However I have read enough reviews to know that JPS has made some good cars. Being that these are custom built "new cars" there is always ging to be variations in the build from unit to unit. JPS appears to be the most severe in this respect. I read 6 months ago about Tom Dewalt and Kelly Frazer's issues with JPS. And here it is still going on. John Steele has been in business long enough to know that you need to stand behind your products.It seems to me other then poor build quality the only way a coupe could leak over an inch of water in the cabin would be poking holes in it around the windshield or going over rutted road causing the floor pans to tear or separate. I'm not buying that scenario so I can only assume it is a lack of sealing around the front or rear glass or gaps in and around floor pans due to poor build quality.The fact that Mr. Steele will not talk to Tom further about it destroys any confidence I had in JPS. I guess I'll have to spend some more money when I'm ready to buy. I'm deleting their web sight from my computer.

Q: What's the deal?

A: When people are in the market to buy a dream, they will nearly always look past evidence and reason and chase the object of desire with hard-earned money in a way they never would with any other purchase. John Steele sells dreams, and he's very good at it (the selling part). He's built some great looking cars, but he's never built one that's even approaching "weather tight", and this was well documented before the coupe project was even an idea in John Steele's head. John is John- he can't be Henry Reisner, or Boyd Coddington, or anybody else- he builds cars the way he can and wants to. They look great right out of the chute. They leak. They have lousy engines, sourced from the lowest bidder. At least three of them have caught fire in the last three years. Looking the other way, or wishing it were otherwise, or "holding his feet to the fire", or threatening legal action will only lead to further frustration. What was promised is irrelevant. John is John, and can't be anything else.

This is old news. This sort of problem has been documented back to at least 2002. It's been gummed to death- but it won't stop the next guy who wants a replica coupe from believing he can get the car of his dreams from JPS- because the dream pushes evidence and reason to the side almost every time.

It's the recurring theme of the Speedster Owners website: "If you wish something hard enough, you can make it so". This kind of Pollyanna reasoning applies to how the cars are titled (illegally, 95% of the time), how they are insured (incorrectly, for the most part), whether sales tax is owed (the state says "yes"- most builders say "no"), and most fundamentally- the reputation of a particular builder.

Some guy looking for a coupe just plunked down a deposit to SAS for a car with a "projected delivery" in the 12 month neighborhood- never mind that there are multiple guys on this site who have waited YEARS for a car that wasn't a prototype. Steve Lawson has been sued over this exact issue. And yet, "after a long talk" with Steve- the deposit was sent. The buyer will be truly shocked and indignant when it takes him 4 years to get a car. He bought a dream.

Yeah, due to the exchange rate, and increasing materials costs- Intermeccanicas have become expensive. Every IM owner I've ever come across, met, or corresponded with would tell you it was worth every penny.

On the other end of the spectrum- nearly every Vintage Speedster owner is satisfied with his car. They are what they are, and Kirk doesn't typically promise something he can't deliver. There's a lot of value in that.

What's the point? Take a good hard look at what other people have to say about something before you do it. Don't be fooled by the shape of the bodies- there is a profound difference between car from various builders.

"Ready, aim, fire", beats "ready, fire, aim" every time.

Just some food for thought --

At the time I purchased my Speedster I was living in Chino Hills, CA. I bought my car in Ocean Beach (San Diego area) about 105-110 miles away. I drove it home in the POURING RAIN the whole way home (no exaggeration here - it was early spring - March/April) with NO TOP. When I got home 2 hours later there wasn't even half the water (not even a fourth) in my car that was in Tom's coupe in the above pics -- and my car is a home-built CMC!

With that said, in my opinion, Tom's situation certainly seems unacceptable.

I'd like to throw something out here --- what do you think John Steele would expect if he ordered something similar for himself (product quality or post-sale support) from another car builder? I'm sure he would expect the exact same thing Tom expected...

Sure Jim, I'll have another beer...

Stan - What are you getting at be "whether sales tax is owed (the state says "yes"- most builders say "no")" I bought CMC kit in '89 I have Cert of Origin and Bill of Sale for it ($8k); have title for VW donor and Bill of Sale for it (from family member) $100. I bought lots of rebuild parts - and paid sales tax on majority of them. When I go to title it (as whatever the state of VA whims - '89 CMC Classic Speedster or '70 VW Custom/Kit - but surely NOT a 2009 vehicle) I expect to pay sales tax on the body kit and the chassis --- but surely not on a finished car (including my labor) or the parts I already paid tax on.

Some states do go to extreme --- like charging sales tax at yard sales! Oh come on.

You know the registry has a rating system that 6 months ago seemed like it was the most logical way to rate the vendors. It is clearly not accurate! When JPS can rate a 9.2 or 9.3 and then you read an individul's account of the product and how they were treated the rating system to me now seems totally useless. There are simply too many variables. Where the cars bought new? What are the owners driving habits? etc. The forum seems to offer a more realistic feedback. It's too bad Beck,Vintage and Thunder don't offer a coupe for those who want it. SAS seems like a good outfit but the wait time is simply too brutal.I don't need to say anything further on JPS.I can see why IM doesn't make a coupe. They would charge as much or more then a real one. IM works because top quality real original speedsters and cabs go for over a hundred grand. So spending 60 grand,if you have it,can still make sense.Anyway I hope that Tom can get somthing resolved.

SO PLEASED I READ YOUR LETTER I WAS GOING TO BUY A JPS I HAVE NOW ORDERED MY SPEEDSTER FROM VINTAGE - I FOUND KIRK TO BE VERY HELPFUL - ANY ADVISE FOR A FUTURE
SPEEDSTER OWNER,WOIULD BE HELPFUL
CHEERS
RAY

Paul, I believe the rating system is accurate. If Tom gives them a rating of 1 and others that have had a positive experience give a rating of 8 to 10, that doesn't mean that ALL of John's cars are bad.

Tom's rating will lower the overall score by a small percentage point but that doesn't mean that the overall score should drop to Tom's rating.

What tends to happen on internet bulletin boards is the Lynch Mob mentality. If one respected person complains than a lot of people jump on the band wagon. This will keep going until someone shows up with a rope at the nearest tree.

I've seen this too many times on BB's and it may not be fair to John or to the other satisified customers that own a JPS.

Remember, you're only hearing one side of the story.

In conclusion, I'm not calling Tom a liar, only pointing out that no one has heard John's side of the story.

Does JPS advertise their speedsters and coupes as "used VWs" on their website? If not, why would he even have the balls to make such a statement to someone who has bought one? Anyhow, is he saying that he uses used VW parts to complete his tube frame cars? I'm sure that if this were advertised to potential buyers, they would be a little more apprehensive to shell out that kind of money for a handcrafted automobile comprised of used VW parts.
In this particular case, what would the "other side of the story" possible be other than excuses? A quality hand built automobile should be one that the craftsman takes pride in, not one that he avoids. Every effort should have been made ensure that the car was an example of the craftmanship that JPS has to offer. Or perhaps this is a perfect example of the craftsmanship that is offered.

It would be a little hard to get John's side of the story, because he; ducks-out, sneaks-out, bails-out, scurries-away, whatever term you want to use for running away will fit here.

I'm not sure how many JPS coupes have been built, but the 4 JPS coupes I personally saw with my own eyes on both Coasts (as noted in my post above) leave little room for any opinion other than sub-standard finish and a 'I've-got-your-money-now-its-your-problem' attitude.

Vince - got that beer for you, did you want those Pork Rinds I saw on the kitchen counter?

Thanks for the beer bud...Did you say Pork? sure I would love some....
You better hurry up, I think this is where John commits Hairy Kairy..

VINCE
LMAO

I actually have an email from John with his side. I prefer not to post it here but I will say his story does not explain the above pictures Tom posted.

Bob,

How does it happen that John Steele responded to you?

Has he read the messages posted here?

This really distresses me. I feel bad for Tom, but it seems like it goes beyond Tom's issues. It's like a blight on the whole Speedster community.

Bob, the pictures you mention are of water accumulated during the Carlisle run and the result of rainfall while driving (I assume)
most of us with a speedster driving in the rain the last 2 years returning from Paso Robles had similar situation, I know I did.
It came from below under the chassis and unless John told his Coupe buyers that their cars would be water tight, he can hardly be blamed for that condition. I had to put fans in my car for 3 days, but I can hardly blame Kirt at Vintage, because I chose to drive my car in the rain...So unless John spacifically told these guys their cars would not take on water, the water thing is really a non issue..
Never met John, But if I wanted a Replica coupe so bad that I was willing to pay more than an original for one, I think I would wait till he made more than just a few, to get the bugs out for sure.
Not to mention the geographic distance between Manufacturer and buyer. I think you guys are nuts to think that everything was going to be honky dory.....

Michael, John responded to because, as stated earlier, I was seriously considering a JPS coupe. I specifically as the question about taking in water. I'm not in a position to badmouth JPS. I do not own one of his cars. Since he completed 12 coupes, I sure he has learned from each one he make and has made improvements. I just chosed a different builder.

Would be nice if JPS would pass on a little of what he allegedly learned to help an early adopter find and fix the problem. Unfortunately he does not do so. Either he does not know and has not learned anything or he is unwilling to share and does not care about the owner once he has been paid.

John Steele has a story for every issue. He bad mouthed coupe #1 owner to me at Carlisle not knowing the owner was there and had already been talking to me. I know he has done the same to others about me.

As I have said many times, I understood I would have more issues with this car and it would not be perfect by any means. I could live with that. What I did not understand was that I would get ZERO assistance from JPS. Yes he shipped it back to CA for repairs, but then did next to nothing. Trouble is John Steele is no Carey Hines. All he needs is a plaid jacket and he could be Kurt Russell in USED CARS.

To those SOC folks who have offered to help - A BIG THANKS! It looks like I may have to take you up on it.

And for the pep talk at Carlisle . . . thanks Danny!!!!

This is what I asked JPS to do:

John Steele
JPS Motorsports
RE: Geen JPS Coupe A
May 16, 2008


John,

The quality of the build of my JPS Coupe A has proven to be FAR less than satisfactory. This is not limited to my car. There is significant evidence in my experience (documented in my records), and in the experience of other early JPS Coupe A owners, that these cars are not of acceptable quality and are not performing as represented or expected.

My problems have been persistent and ongoing. Most remain after nearly one year of trying to get them resolved. Most problems initially reported remain unresolved or only partially resolved as of today, with no reasonable timeframe or plan for resolution in sight. JPS support has likewise been unsatisfactory, slow and inadequate and no change is in sight.

The latest issues include:

Blue smoky exhaust

This is what I got:
On May 21, 2008, at 10:59 AM, jpsmoto356@aol.com wrote:

What I will offer at this time is that you ship the car back at your expense.

I will make the repairs under my time table and not at your demand that they be done by a certain time frame.

You may fly out if you wish at your expense and test the car how ever way you think and when you approve the repairs I will pay for return shipping.

John P. Steele

JPS Motorsports Inc.
11323 Vanowen St.
North Hollywood, CA 91605 USA

I do not want to spend more money on this car. When I said this was unacceptable, I was JPS sent the used car message that started this thread.

To all of you saying this is old news, you may well be right and perhaps I could have searched deeper. My Bad.

But I will promise everyone I will not be quiet when I come across someone looking to do business with JPS. I feel it is my duty to prevent someone else from making the same mistake in the future.

Bob you made the right decision not to go with JPS!

This is becomming a familiar story that has been talked about on this forum before. See below:

http://speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=2575

I have believed that John builds a good 356 replica and the examples that I have seen are great looking cars. It's unfortunate that what appears to be a fine product does not always measure up in the real world and that the level of service falls short of what seem to be reasonable expectations.

Good catch, John. Forgot about that fiasco. Deja Vu.

~WB

Wow....Deja Vu all over again.

Looks like we forget the past too quickly around here.

Tom,

There's really nothing on your list that can't be remedied in fairly short order. (Even re-ringing the pistons or swapping out the P&Cs if required can be done in less than a working day.) I wish that you had posted earlier; Todd was at Carlisle with the tow rig looking for a project car, he could have brought your car on home with him.

IF you decide to cut the tether with JPS and have the work done here on the East Coast (most likely on your dime) I can offer you a VERY good deal, and have you up and running in not too long a time at all.

The BIG advantage here is that I promise NOT to let Gordon sneak by and test drive your ride after each problem is corrected.

Just letting you know.

Luck, and more luck.

TC

In response to Vince's comments- yeah, most Speedsters leak- but a coupe gives up a lot of the best parts of a Speedster for one thing- weather protection. A leaky coupe has as much practical value as the cardboard submarines they used to advertise in the back of "Mechanix Illustrated".

Without looking at the car- I'd bet that the bulk of the water is coming from the junction between the frame and subframe behind the back seats. At the minimum, Tom will need to pull up the carpet- at the maximum, the transaxle will need to come out. I'd buy the best rolled roofing material available and plaster the entire joint on both sides, if it were me.

But air and water come in from about 100 other places on a JPS car. Sealing them all acceptably will be Tom's "white whale"- a quest that will take him to the boundary of sanity.

The weak-kneed 2332 isn't going to be a matter of a new P/C set, although that might clear up the bug-fogger problem. JPS sources engines from the lowest bidder- and there are a lot of bottom feeding Type 1 engine builders in SoCal. I'm sure the engine has some nice stuff that could be reused, but a total rebuild with some good heads and a decent exhaust is going to be on the agenda if Tom wants to run with the big dogs. I'm in the process of having such an engine put together- and can assure you that there is nothing cheap about a 200 h/p mill. Think "Jake Raby pricing", no matter who does it (Chico is doing mine).

The problem is- once you start adding all this stuff up, the total cost of the car goes through the roof. Options are what John Steele uses to differentiate himself from Vintage Speedsters, but his non-cosmetic options are always woeful. John Steel is at his best when the option list is kept short.

If I was on a tight budget and didn't want to buy used- I'd order a Vintage Speedster, less engine, no options (except for the stayfast top, and a freeway flier). I'd order a nice 1914 or 2110 from a reputable builder and install it myself. In a couple of years, after the body was done shrinking, I'd get a good paint job. Along the way, I'd work on sealing up the car.

Tom's going to have to do all this stuff anyhow, and he paid a lot more than the price of a base car. Forewarned is forearmed.

fyi, Chico's name isn't well received in the Spyder world. One of our members has gone through 4 of his engines. Apparently Chico admits that he had someone else build these engines

Larry-

I suppose we'll see.

Stan, hopefully, he's realized the error of his ways. Previously, his engines were top notch. Lets just hope you get a quality engine and don't have the problems that one of our Spyderclub members had.

Wow! What a horrible predicament.

Tom, sorry to hear of your situation. When picking a builder for my speedster, I really considered JPS. I'm glad now that I didn't have them build my car!

All I can say is...Thank's Kirk

Stan:

So since the CMC kit I just picked up had been sitting in a garage for 20 years (!!!!), I guess it's done shrinking, ya think??

Just in case, though, I told Chris we would sit it outside in my Dad's back yard (we're storing it in his garage "for a while") for a week or so during the hottest part of the Summer

Nothing like a good, Solar, bake-in to bring out the warts!! ;>)

Gordon, a 20 y/o body sounds just about perfect to me.

The body shrinkage issue is something that IMHO is really overlooked when guys are puzzling out the new/used conundrum. I'm at the point of thinking that a 5 y/o car in the color you want is a really good, economical decision to make. You can block the car to the moon, and not have to worry that it'll go "wavy" in 6 months. And because it's the "right" color, you don't need to worry about the jams and dash.

You can keep this thread going forever.
You can call in the sharks in suits.
You can pick and peck from now 'till doomsday.
JPS will continue to sell cars, hell, he has at least 5 coupe orders as we speak, not to mention speedster orders. VERY FEW OF JPS CUSTOMERS COME FROM THIS SITE INITIALLY.
For the most part, 90% of John's customers will be very pleased with their cars. Most of them will average less than 1,000 miles a year on their cars and spend most of their time waxing them and driving them to some local car show.
TC's right, Tom. Your issues can be remedied locally and reasonably.
I'm sure, by this point, you have lost any possibility of working it out with John as I'm sure he feels the same way about you.
If you can't cut some sort of deal with him, have the work done locally, make sure it's documented then sue him in court.
Otherwise, you must be a complete idiot if you think you're going to get him to agree to your demands.
Stan, I know you had your issues with JPS, but you did what you could, realized your needs went beyond the capabilities of JPS and pulled the trigger on an IM. You sold your JPS and moved on. Enough said.
I still have my JPS, John worked out some of the issues and I finished the job the way I wanted to. I still leak oil, I still take on water but at 20,000 hard-driven miles I'm still kickin' ass and lovin' my car.
And John Steele STILL helps me out when I need it. Again, to the best of his ability.
"Sometimes you just have to lower your standards" - Einstein to Henry Ford ;)

........"Sometimes you just have to lower your standards"....

I think not, Tom has been bent over and that, is the only real bottom line here.
Anyone here expects someone to follow through with what they say they will.
Tom has a legitimate list all which he should not have to address as an out of pocket expense. Personally speaking, I'm ok with this thread continuing as it will, over time but a dent in the JPS coffers by steering potential customers to other manufactures.
The best scenario would be for JPS to step up and do what's right.

Terry,
If you lived a few thousand miles from JPS, do you really think you would have gotten the same service on your car? Honestly?
I believe that is the sole problem here. JPS has the mentality of "out of site, out of mind". That seems to be extremely evident by the avoidance of the issue at Carlisle. Kind of a crappy way to do business, IMO.

Alan,
I think you are wrong.
JPS

"You can keep this thread going forever".

Until the builder steps up and resolves this matter I for one hope it goes as long as the issue remains unresolved. If it's forever---so be it.

To not show up for a meeting to resolve this issue----what the hell is that about??


"1,000 miles" ---Wonderful. I sure didn't buy my car to do 1,000 miles a year. A golf cart does that distance!! I can see the ads now "Buy our junk---you can go 1,000 miles a year!"

"5 coupe orders", how sad. Too bad they aren't aware of this site.

Tom is a friend and an active member of this site. Members here support what is right and are many not happy about how Tom is being treated.

I for one sugest that Tom select one of the stellar builders who are active on this site to take his car for 60 days and make the green lemon what it should have been in the first place. The original "builder" would of course pay the tab.

We all support our builders for continued help with our cars. How can this builder be supported given his "no show" stunt at Carlisle? Am I missing something?---Jack

Jim,
I would say yes to your question.
I had many issues with my car. I asked questions here. I talked by phone and email with JPS.
Sometimes the conversations were heated, sometimes I knew I was getting the run around.
I had John work with three different local mechanics over the years.
Each one was satisfied with their conversations and arrangements with John.
I never threatened John with legal action or any kind of scare tactics.
I did come to the realization after a year or so that my expectations were more than JPS could deliver. At that point it became my car.
In the end, as in the beginning, I knew I probably would have been happier with an Intermeccanica. Henry is a friend and would have built a beautiful car for me.
Kirk Duncan and Carey Hines are also class acts and are far better at working with their customers.
But I chose JPS, I dealt with the issues and I am satisfied with where I am now.
I wonder how well the other builders would respond if threatened by legal action?
C'mon, you guys, you know this will all work out. Somehow, it will.

I absolutely believe that John should step up and take care of things. After all, this is one of the cars he uses in his advertisements. Given the state of things, however, I believe that the best thing for Tom to do is to take the denizens of this site who have offered help up on their offers, and to get the car the way he wants it himself. That way he'll be able to enjoy the car in short order. Unfortunately some additional cost will be involved. Maybe he can work a deal out with John to cover some of it, and maybe not. At least he'll have the car - if he still wants it.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but become concerned when I'm reading that Tom should expect anything less than quality for his money. He PAID for a quality product and deserves such.

If John/JPS cannot deliver on that contracted sale, then Tom has the ability to take other avenues to get his car right. He can litigate or negotiate a settlement with JPS.

If I paid my money and had a wading pool in the drivers compartment, you better believe I'd be ticked too. And if promises of meetings and corrections have gone unanswered by JPS, then they should reap and I mean REAP the consequences.

You don't stiff clients and ignore scheduled meetings. Really bad form and obviously, JPS will hear about it through SOC and its' members.

Me either, Dennis, no dog here, but I find it uncanny that those who think Tom should accept anything less than quality have JPS denoted under their name.
I for the most part was gonna steer clear of this, but I can't get over how a few can call ten other posters (and a noted builder) on this thread liars, not seeing what we have seen.
I spoke with John on the phone in the past and at Carlisle. He's the most personable guy to talk to who will take time out of his busy day to talk cars. But the problem is, some can't differentiate personable John from businessman John, who is apparently a bit different.

~WB

GERD, All I can tell you is the John Steele I know very personable, but is not supportive and is full of crap. He flat out lied to me when he said he would look at the car (twice) and help work out a resolution strategy. Based on my experience he does nothing unless he feels there is no other way out.

All I ever wanted was for JPS to help me make the car right. No leaks in the rain (it should be at least as dry as my Speedster), an engine with no MAJOR oil leaks. AC that works as advertised, and so on . . . What is unreasonable about that?

GERD, your experience as reported on this site was a big factor in my decision to go with JPS. I figured he was OK. In retrospect, I was clearly a fool to believe I would be treated as GERD has been treated and get a good quality product (that works) from JPS. I was an even bigger fool to believe John Steele was a business man interested in treating his customers, especially an early adopter of a new product, like he cares about them and the value they receive. And evidently he is also not a man that can be trusted to do what he says he would do. Call me old fashioned, but I believed he was a man of his word. MY BAD.

I can only conclude JPS is cheap and does not want to be responsible for the product he builds. I have said it before, and I think it bears repeating often: John Steele is no Carey Hines. How can anyone flat out lie to a customer like John has and still be supported? How can anyone expect to get value for their money when the company and the man behave this way?

Gerd, there is absolutely no excuse for not meeting with me and looking at the car. I could have done as he asked and driven a smoking & leaking iteration of the JPS Coupe into the main building in front of prospective clients and competitive builders. As a business owner myself, I did not think that was a way to get things done. I did not want to embarrass JPS. Now I am beginning to believe John wanted me to do so so he would have an excuse not to help me. If so I did not take the bait, and he just blew me off anyway.


Ask yourselves if this was your car and your treatment by JPS what would you do????


To all who have offered help - I am trying to formulate a strategy, a time table to get this done, and a budget for the expenses. Any assistance would be appreciated. Please PM me. Looks like I am on my own on this as JPS is not interested in any help other than me shipping it back at my expense. So much for a warranty.

Thanks.

One last thought - In today's economy, every sale counts. Maybe this won't hurt JPS in a significant way, but it has already cost him 2 or more sales. I am certainly no cheerleader for him. The shame of it is this could all have been avoided with a little accountability and concern for the customer. To quote a famous line: Stupid is as stupid does.

It seems to me the JPS owners who are happy with their cars should consider backing Tom rather than speaking against him. If you are on good terms with John than maybe you could speak with him to help him understand that these sorts of situations do not help the resale values of your own cars. Other manufacturers have run into similar situations and have successfully dealt with them to the satisfaction of their owners rather than letting the situation fester.

I've seen Tom's car and I think it has the potential to be the car of his dreams, he has certainly financially put everything into it to make it that. Owners/builders on this site who were at Carlisle have offered to help get him the coupe in order but that has the potential to void agreements with the builder. Much more could be said, I hope Tom will get to the point where he has the car he felt he was buying.

Part of my problem is I can't even get out of this without loosing my shirt. I can't sell it without disclosing the issues. Who here would be interested? It will take a significant discount to get it sold. So because I believed JPS could build and support a car in a reasonable way and was duped, I'm out quite a bit of money. I feel almost like I was scammed. Left with no choice but to throw more money at it.

Hey,
I own a JPS but I'm not here to support John.
He's an adult and he can defend himself.
I truly sympathize with you Tom and I wish you'd have received the car and the product support you were promised and paid for.
Hell, I wish I had all the money back that it's cost me over the years to fix things that should have been right the first time.
But, here you are. What are your choices?
If you fix the car and decide to sell it you shouldn't have a problem because the car will be free of problems and it still is a beautiful and rare replica. It'll sell.
However, after you get it to where you want it you might fall in love with it all over again and decide to keep it, like I did with mine.

A happy customer is one that is SATISFIED with his purchase. Everyone has a different threshold and a good business man knows this and gives what needs to be done to make the customer satisfied. It seems that this did not happen. TSK-TSK, I guess this is a warning shot for those looking for a new Speedy!

I agree with Terry.

It's kinda like a nasty divorce. Is it really worth it (time, money and aggravation) to quibble over visitation rights for the dog (or whatever property is severely polarizing the two parties).

As in that nasty divorce, no matter how determined you are to seek it, it's a no-win situation! Aside from needing closure, spitefulness, or 'it's-a-matter-of-principal', if you REALLY want to move on from a nasty relationship, cut bait and consider your 'loss' as the cost of doing business.

Your life will be better for it (ulcer-free) and you'll be that much the wiser.

Tom, you know there is a long line of great SOC guys chomping-at-the-bit to get their hands on your car to make it right. I know you really like the car (or at least what it represents), take that road to finally enjoy the car you seek.

Your SoCal buddy - the Pineapple-Headed/El Guapo/Moose-P/MUSBJIM!!

I know John Steele. He built two Speedsters for me over the course of five years. Neither car was as perfect as I would have liked upon delivery because John's standards were different than mine.
It took me a long time to come to terms with that. I could not understand why he didn't care about my car (and every little detail that was bugging me) as much as I did.
Eventually, I found someone else to work on my car, someone whose business was fixing cars.
John Steele's business is building cars. He should build them so they don't need fixing, but in Tom's case he didn't. And now almost a year after delivery, Tom continues to have issues that he says John Steele will not address.
Tom - take the advice given here by many before me - forget John Steele and get your car fixed to your satisfaction locally.
Continuing to expect John Steele to help you seems to be an exercise in futility that will only make you crazy. Right or wrong, that's the way it is.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)

Yo, John Leader, How are you dude? I have been wondering if you were lurking on this thread....I think both your speedys were in my top 5 all time, and knowing they were both done by JPS, I figured you had to be out there somewhere.....
Just wanted to say that I hope all is well for you and yours...

Guys . . .

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that I need to fix it myself or sell it (which will require fixing it myself). It is very clear JPS is not willing to help voluntarily.

I just feel I want to make sure anyone contemplating dealing with JPS understands they will be on their own. I know I was warned to some extent, but not as clearly as I want to make it. I'm sure others tried to do the same in the past and I know at some point you just have to let it go.

Still, I plan to make a case for reimbursement when all is said and done. I think I have a very well documented case full of failed promises and misrepresentations as well as clear evidence that the product was grossly flawed and actually unsafe to drive when shipped to me. I have the parts to prove it. We'll see how I feel once I'm past this.

I keep hearing that my expectations are too high. If so, a Beck Speedster is the high water mark, and no one should expect a JPS to come close to a Beck. Since I have seen JPS cars that rival any other, I know JPS can build a nice car. He just chose to not do so for me. And does not care. JPS still sucks in my book.

Anyone interested in helping sort this baby out, please PM me hacksaw57 AT mac.com. Looks like the only way out. Maybe as suggested at Carlisle, we can have an "event".

Danny P.? TC? Alan? Rocky? Cory? Anyone out there want to tackle this project? I need to gather an estimate and put a budget together.

Thanks guys.

Hey, I'm right down the road, too!

~WB

damm - i'd be in there like a dirty shift if you didnt live on the other side of north america.

These are not complicated cars, so fixing it - no matter what the issues are - shouldnt be a problem for a group of handy guys, a box of tools and a welder (if it comes to that).

Tom---buddy, you are now on the right track. That is one georgeous car and anyone who has ever seen it agrees. There are very bright folks on this site that easily can get that car into perfect shape.
Whatever you spend getting it 100% sorted our will be infinitely less dollars that the bath you will take selling it "as is". And you will end up with the wonderful car you first sought. It won't be a JPS afterwards---more like "Dewalt's SOC Special" and what is wrong with that?

Good luck, Tom. Get 'er done before the Dragon run!!---Jack

Tom: Now you're hitting on all cylinders. Make it great and send the "appropriate" photo to John after it's done. Great folks create great cars and with the gang here at SOC, you're destined for one helluva ride. Best of luck!!

I work for beer and pizza....

Hello! Now we're talkin'! Cory and I are IN!

We'll be singing the 1-4-3-2 song all the way to Easton-P-A!

"I need to gather an estimate and put a budget together."

You got me for free. Got some deadlines to take care of, but you won't need any budget for my help.

Other than the cost of a few materials at best and whatever your engine needs to bring it back to life, you shouldn't need any budget at all. Nothing on your list costs coin to fix, just time and a little know-how.

Tom,
Just enlisted Rocky we "the S" team are in, I do have a lot going on in the coming weeks, I'll pm you to see where we are at time wise. best not to have crowd but a group that can produce 25 hrs of labor in 8 hours. One thing I can do in advance...I'll need a pic of the AC compressor bracket to fabricate a better design. ~Alan

Hey Guys, When you finish the coupe, I have a house that needs painting....

Paint! That sounds like too much work!

That's the spirit, Tom. I mentioned to Alan earlier today that we built a home here in Maryand in 1983. The builder absolutely SUCKED so bad that I would call him every Saturday morning and pretty much yell at him on the phone for stuff he - once again - did not fix/finish during the week. Even took him to court and lost because his company was bankrupt and we couldn't sue him personally. I finally wrote him off at that point and began finishing/fixing stuff myself. We are still happily living in that house 25 years later.

Keep the faith, Tom. You have a few good people in line to help out, they've fixed most of these problems before and love helping out. We all want to see this Phoenix rise again.

Tom, you got me for free, just like TC. Hell, it will be fun to ride down on a nice day in my Spyder. Nothing like an excuse to drive! I am available June 13-14 and/or 27-28 for a possible 2nd visit. Also, when I don't have my two little ones, I could shoot down during the week by 4 or 4:30(I get out of work at 3)

I'm in too. I'm not much of a "wrench" but I can be that "Hey, hand me the 10mm socket." guy. Every little bit counts. Just let me know when and where.

Tom,
I have friends in Easton so it'll give me an excuse to visit them as well. (Rich Young of Young Dodge-Mazda-Volkswagen. If I'm not mistaken the dealership is pretty close to yours?)

Tom looks like Sat 6/28 would work for me ~Alan

Alan,
AC bracket photos should be in your e-mail

Rats!! This sounds like fun, and I'm too far away to come. I need to give back a little to all the folks who helped build mine.

OK, this sounds like an opportunity to answer one of the nagging questions from the college days of the 1960's. How many grown adults can fit into a Porsche 356A coupe? Seriously guys, I hope you can pull this off in grand fashion and get Tom on the road in the Green Coupe mechanically sound in 'bone dry' fashion. Unfortunately, the only thing I could do to help is make iced tea or lemonade for the breaks.

I'm seriously trying to find a hole in my schedule, I might be too late in the game to help, my crashed drive put me way, WAY, behind schedule ! ! ! I'm kinda hoping that, once all of the chimps finish making it worse, they'll bring the car on up to me and I'll make it right and correct their corrections . . .

I mean SOMEONE was suggesting roofing material jammed into the corners (rather than correctly re-fiberglassing the section) as a legit means of stopping the water leaks in the rear.

And Cory is planning on pop-riveting aluminum panels all over the engine compartment. That better not happen until a month or more after the corrections and a LOT of wet weather drivin', otherwise someone's gonna be drilling out pop rivets to get at the corners to pull out all of the roofing material to make the proper repairs in fiberglass . . . and I'll betcha that that someone is gonna be me.

As a word of caution here, if the car is questionable and the engine's leaking, the transaxle ought to be pulled as well. Easier to check and stop the water leaks WAY underneath with the trans out anyway, but why not double check the nose cone, forward mounts (German hopefully) side cover seal and CV joints/boots/bolts. They may be trashed or loose already. If the engine leaks, why not change out the main seal just to be sure. I wouldn't trust the torque on the flywheel anyway, and double check the wavy washers on the pressure plate, and . . .

It'll take more that a weekend, it's only time and energy and a few seals/gaskets/washers and such, but you all KNOW that you'll need to hit that sucker HARD. I wouldn't trust a bolt or cotter pin on it from front to rear.

As offered, if I can't get down there, just bring it up here, I'll set right what doesn't get done during the big thrashing.

No budget necessary, we'll roll it onto the lift and I'll call you in a short while to come pick it up, OR I'll bring it to Cory in New York, and he'll bring it to, and so on and so on . . . on down to PA.

Just saying, you REALLY ought to put a socket on every bolt on that car, I sure would if it were mine.

Luck,

TC

Tom - I just read this whole thread. Sorry you're having such a bad time with your build. My first car was a VS and had many problems with it. Sometimes I think some of these builds are just lemons. Unlike your situation, Kirk fixed everything that was wrong. Even put a new engine in it. But it still wasn't what I wanted and sold it. But that's another story. So, I know how you feel about the car. I do think that you are doing the right thing by getting it fixed. Just one point I would like to make however, is that, I thought I read that John offered to fix everything you asked for. Yes, it was on his timeline, but still offered to fix it and ship it back. With that said, is it right to continue to hammer this guy? You know, there is always two sides to every story, but do I detect a little attitude here? It's true, like Terry, we are closer to our builders, and that probably has a lot to do with getting things fixed. It just sounds to me that John tried to meet you half way and you didn't accept that. I am sure you will, or whoever will, tell me where I am missing something.

en---let me help you---go back on the thread and re read the part about the "no show". Now it's past time to move on and forget about the past and the "who struck Willie."

I am thrilled and gratified to see how the folks on this site are stepping up to get this done for Tom. My hat is off to every one of you who are planning to pitch in and I am very proud to be associated with the bunch of crazies and "the madness".---Jack

ps---Tom , I am struck by the generousity of the folks here who are physically coming to your place to straighten that car out. Struck but not at all surprised. I wish I could also come to help but know I can only be helpful by staying the hell out of the way! I want to contribite in another way and ask that you get your address to me so I can send you $50.00 as my part of helping in this good work. Use it for parts, beer or whatever way that helps.

I expect that others will want to follow suit so publish the address here.

Good luck,Tom---you will have much more than a great car when this is resolved. ----Jack

VINCE
GET SOME POPCORN TOO

Hey, Vince: While you're up, grab me a beer, OK?

Man, am I late to this party. Have been on vacation for about five days, and real busy at work before and since. Parked the Red Barron in the garage after Carlisle, and there it sits since; no SOC either. After hearing how John blew off and bad-mouthed Tom, I was thinking maybe the gentleman in Tom was going to take a hike, and the more sordid details of the adventure on Coupe 2 would come to light. And so it has. I can really add nothing here besides my gradual understanding that John is the nicest guy to talk to, most of the time, but is a rather accomplished BSer. He envisions what can be done, and should be done, and will tell you what he thinks you want to hear, but has only limited resourrce/desire/ability to make it so. One wag observed that: You get the car that John knows how to make. Amen. Much is very good, a lot is less so, and there may be a haphazard approach to QC. I think he knows a lot about cars and engines, and he does like the business he is in. But what is that business? As some have said, it is selling dreams in the form of kit cars. And I confess the pitch was well tuned to my dream. He does emphasize price -- which is to say, keeping it down so more can afford. Dream and reality have drifted apart some in my case, and I'll not get in to all of that here. I observe (have been to the JPS shop twice) that John does not do much of the work himself, but rather works w/ a small staff in a small garage, where I'm guessing there is a lot of turn over. Stuff happens -- or doies not happen -- and he does not see. He answers the phone and e-mail constantly and spends less than five minutes at a time dealing with any particular problem. How he doses this, I am not certain. Some would say: poorly. Anyway, I have come around to understand that I will not be getting much more from John, and I have about given up believeing he will pitch in to help me out w/ this or that as it may arise. I do not have all the myriad issues Tom has had, but there have been some, and I think I am over the most of it. I have come to understand that even if something is wrong and that if it is JPS fault, I may be better off trying to fix it myself.

When I mentioned how much water came in after my first drive in a substantial rain, John told me how to fix this: don't drive in the rain. He was making a joke, but there was nevertheless something telling in the reply: he builds fairweather cars. at least the Speedsters. He went to make Coupes thinking it was a business area, and he could do it. More power to him. Trouble is, he did not really think very hard about the inherent expectation w/ a hardtop car: it will not leak. So too many of the techniques used to make fair-weatehr Speedstrers were used, and the result is here to see. Whether FG or roofing tar is used, it should be possible to fashion the business so it will not ship water inside. That seems the minumum, to me. Tom's engine smokes, and why this is so ought to be found and resolved. The A/C bracket business is really jack-leg and is clearly on John to fix right, I'd say. But the best appraoch is to not let him. Sounds like the "family" is going to gather 'round, and see what can be managed under the ol' shade tree. Big brain trust there, and not a few good mechanics, so favorable results should be expected.

Believe the JPS Coupe build is at around 12 or so. The one at the Carlisle show looked a lot better than #s 1 or 2, for sure. It is very telling that the early S/Ns, are on the market after only one year, and that Tom is contemplating the same. Sad but true. The Coupe dreams and the reality took opposite turns.

Mickey, Rich's dealership is at the same exit as my place. We are neighbors.

Warren, JPS would only ship it back at MY expense. More importantly he can't be trusted. It was sent back once already and he fixed next to nothing on my list and continuously points to the event as a great moment in JPS history. Better to move on and do it right (with the SOC gang) than expect a miracle to happen.

I never expected this kind of support. WOW!!!!

I knew at my first Carlisle that you all were a special bunch. But this shows me just how special. I have been around many groups of great people in my life. You all blow me away with all your generous offers of help. I can't possibly thank you all enough.

Best dates for me are:

6/13, 6/14 & 6/15

6/26, 6/27 & 6/28

7/11, 7/12 & 7/13


What dates work best for you volunteers?? Let me know.
Alan, I'm working on your suggestions. Wild Bill, I did not mean to skip you by any means. Danny thanks a bunch you too TC. And Cory and Teresa and all the others. You're incredible!

Tom, I'm no wrench but if you guys need a grunt worker or goffer, I can hop in my car and be there in 2 hours. You've been more than helpful at Carlisle in my Coupe decision.

The way you guys on the other coast are coming together is making me all weepy....
I'm thinking of flying my mechanic out to help you guys...

Bob from Reading I'll bet your only an hour or so away I'm 40 minutes from Kutztown. Thanks for the offer. Much appreciated.

Jack/Tom - I certainly agree that it is time to move on. I said that before. I did go back and re-read the thread and what I still conclude, is that there are two sides to every story. I think there is a lot missing from the whole story here. But that's just my opinion. Again, I would say there is a very understandable attitude now, and that is the more reason to move on. But, I also think it is time to stop the JPS bashing. I am not a JPS fan or supporter. I just smell a bad rap here. I only mean that because we are only hearing one side of the story, and probably will never hear the other side. I doubt if John would even enter in to this conversation. I certainly wouldn't if I were him.

By the way, the below exerpt is copied from this thread:

"You may fly out if you wish at your expense and test the car how ever way you think and when you approve the repairs I will pay for return shipping."

John P. Steele

I do believe John says he will pay for return shipping, does he not?

I don't know why he was a no show in Carlise, could be a number of reasons, but that's really not the point. The point is that you have shown that John tried to make it good for you and you did not accept his offer. To continue to bad mouth him after that doesn't make sense to me.

Warren:

You're right....there is always "the rest of the story" but these problems with John Steele go back DECADES and it's becoming clear that those who live close enough to check up on him frequently can get a decent car, but don't forget that Eddy Karydis' JPS car (Eddy lives along the West Coast) went up in flames on the way to Morro Bay after only a few weeks of his ownership.

I think we're trying to get the word out that, while it has been shown that JPS can build a decent car when John wants to, "Caveat Emptor" - the potential buyer is walking into a potentially tenuous deal.

Jim: Can I have a Guinness? Or maybe a scotch from Vince?

Tom:

I doubt that Chris and I will make it - Chris is still drying out from his rainy ride in your Speedster (he tells me that the roof leaks at whatever seam is right over the seat back) and we're all of 6 hours away. Almost commuting distance, but not quite) and at the current price of Diesel, "Son of Mighty Power Stroke" would be too expensive to haul all of our tools down there.

BUT IF WE DO...... Can we camp out in one of those big, spiffy RV's????

gn

Warren,

John only offered to pay for shipping one way. He offered to pay to return it to Tom after Tom pays to ship it to JPS.

Tom already returned it to JPS once.