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It's funny you say that Danny.  While this is the factory PTS formula for Oslo Blue, so many of the old Porsche colors have a direct cross reference to European Standard colors and fleet colors.  Dutch Racing Orange is a common traffic orange,  and a couple of the Porsche reds and yellows are as well.  But Dutch Racing Orange sounds so much cooler than traffic cone orange doesn't it?

The American colors have this often as well.  Ron's Spyder is the best example, as the Blue Angels blue and yellow is such an iconic combination, just doesn't sound as cool when you realize its the standard USPS drop box blue and OSHA safety yellow...

Hey Lane,

Are you going bare bones? Any plans for Bluetooth sound or air conditioning? Also, Carey was talking about possible modifications for the engine compartment cover. Anything on that front? My comment to him months ago was that checking the engine oil had to be as convenient as possible, especially with these Subys. Some are known to eat oil. 

Last edited by Ron Mullis

"It looks like "utility cabinet blue" paint. Nice."

I hadn't noticed that, but it really does match the top cabinet, doesn't it?

I wouldn't call it bare bones.  It will have A/C and power windows after all.  Carey hasn't shared any changes in the engine cover design with me yet.  I'm sure it'll work.

Marty: The plan was for an oxblood leather for seats, dash, doors, etc., with oatmeal carpets.  I've seen some gorgeous gray interiors, but I've burned out a bit on gray and would like some richer color.  I could possibly be persuaded if folks want to post picture suggestions.

Last edited by Lane Anderson

Apparently it’s hit or miss with these SUBY crate short blocks. Joe Fortino’s and mine came together and were assembled at the same time. His ran dry and blew up. I caught mine when it was down 2 quarts after 1500 miles. To this day my engine will eat a quart every 1000-1200 miles, depending on how I drive it. Joe’s new engine does not eat oil. 

There is a long and well documented history of these engines running dry within a normal 3000 mile service period. It’s absolutely essential to check the oil religiously. Carey thought it might be helpful to have a small access panel to the dipstick so the entire engine cover could remain in place when checking oil. I thought that was a great idea  

Funny thing, these things don’t smoke. You would think they would. 

I think they do when you romp on them. That’s when they really eat oil. I never saw Joe’s smoking and have asked numerous people if mine does under normal or light load. My guess is the rings bypass at all rpms, directly correlated to rpm. 

A guy I know replaced the rings with new factory rings. His oil usage actually increased slightly. Go figure. 

My wife has a 2.5 liter, 4-cyl Subaru, and a friend of hers has the big Suby 6-cylinder, both bought within 6 months of each other.

The 4-cylinder eats a quart every 2000 - 2500 miles.  Been that way since new and now has 100K on the clock but it is never driven hard at all.

The 6-cylinder eats a quart every 500 - 800 miles and it, too, has been this way since new.   She has  learned to add oil every other gas fill-up.  She also has a lead foot (her husband is even worse).  

 BTW:  Some Subarus have the optional Electric Oil Level Sensor.  You could add it and have a dash Gauge.

https://www.subaruparts.com/oe...el-sensor-11136aa111

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

 

Ron Mullis posted:

Apparently it’s hit or miss with these SUBY crate short blocks. Joe Fortino’s and mine came together and were assembled at the same time. His ran dry and blew up. I caught mine when it was down 2 quarts after 1500 miles. To this day my engine will eat a quart every 1000-1200 miles, depending on how I drive it. Joe’s new engine does not eat oil. 

There is a long and well documented history of these engines running dry within a normal 3000 mile service period. It’s absolutely essential to check the oil religiously. Carey thought it might be helpful to have a small access panel to the dipstick so the entire engine cover could remain in place when checking oil. I thought that was a great idea  

Funny thing, these things don’t smoke. You would think they would. 

Some do not take any oil some do and some have head gasket issues. 

The reality is that if you have to add a quart every 1000 miles it does seem a bit much even if that is subaru's info printed. 

My car as well can take up to 2 quarts per 3000miles it depends on my driving. 

I discovered my car was using oil on my maiden voyage I just had a thought to check the oil on my first gaz stop then I noticed a bit of use then the next stop I added 1/2 a quart and that is how I discovered the issue and continue to monitor it. 

My car as well can take up to 2 quarts per 3000miles it depends on my driving. 

In cool weather, cruising, I’m down a full quart every 1500 miles. Hot and on it, more like every 1200 miles. I wasn’t exactly tracking it the first 1500 miles on the car, but I know it was more like a quart every 600-700 miles. So it has improved somewhat but is holding pretty steady since. I have thought about a new short block, but really it’s quite possible that I get one that does the same thing. The car runs fine otherwise, so I’ve decided to live with it. 

Michelle's 2006 2.5 SOHC Impreza leaks it out(cam/crank seals that I don't feel like changing), no burning/using after 200k. But we park it in the gravel and add a little every other fillup.

My daughter's identical car doesn't use any. Same mileage, maybe 190K.

My son has a 2002 Legacy, 2.5 SOHC, 250k on it. Doesn't use much at all, maybe a half quart every 3000.

Lane, monitor it until you know usage if any.

Not sure I'm adding anything here, but I talked with John at OutFront Motorsports. He's building my 2.5 Subaru motor. He is very particular about the break in procedure: what oil (Motul 10/40 break-in oil or equivalent), what engine speeds (particularly in the first 1500 miles), oil changes at 100, 500, 1000, and the every 1000 miles up to 3000 total, then switch to whatever oil you want). He says it's critical to the sealing of the rings, etc.

Even at that a quart per 1200miles is within Subaru spec. but following the procedure should keep that much lower, unless you are running high performance pistons with greater clearances that stock.

JMM (Michael) posted:

Not sure I'm adding anything here, but I talked with John at OutFront Motorsports. He's building my 2.5 Subaru motor. He is very particular about the break in procedure: what oil (Motul 10/40 break-in oil or equivalent), what engine speeds (particularly in the first 1500 miles), oil changes at 100, 500, 1000, and the every 1000 miles up to 3000 total, then switch to whatever oil you want). He says it's critical to the sealing of the rings, etc.

Even at that a quart per 1200miles is within Subaru spec. but following the procedure should keep that much lower, unless you are running high performance pistons with greater clearances that stock.

Those oil change numbers are excessive as far as I'm concerned. The most important thing to me is get the original oil out early and do the proper break in procedure. Varying rpm and an occasional burst of acceleration to expand the rings. 

IaM-Ray posted:

Oil usage is pretty rare I think in most VW or Hondas at least in all the ones I have.  

Oil use is unheard of in any Detroit vehicle. There would be a recall of massive proportions, class-action lawsuits as far as the eye could see, and a 20% drop in share prices if GM, Ford, or Dodge burned oil at a rate of 1 qt/1200 mi.

edsnova posted:

My 2.2 never used a drop of oil but I've now done the head gaskets three times so...

I think you need to find a new mechanic LOL!

I did head gaskets on Michelle's 2.5 SOHC two years ago. Cleaned the head and block with Nylon bristle wheels on a drill. Bought a Fel-Pro gasket, and sprayed both sides with Copper-Coat. Followed the factory torque procedure, which has 3 stages and two different patterns, and done. Checked for flat heads with a machinist straightedge and feeler gauges. It was flat, no machining needed. No problems since then, except the leaky cam seals that I was too lazy to swap out.

The Subaru gaskets are junk, and are the problem. You could see where the leakage was occurring and see the failure. Why people use them I'll never understand. Why would you put the same failed part back in, albeit a new one? Isn't it obvious that it will fail again?

Stan Galat posted:
IaM-Ray posted:

Oil usage is pretty rare I think in most VW or Hondas at least in all the ones I have.  

Oil use is unheard of in any Detroit vehicle. There would be a recall of massive proportions, class-action lawsuits as far as the eye could see, and a 20% drop in share prices if GM, Ford, or Dodge burned oil at a rate of 1 qt/1200 mi.

My Subie tech guys suggest I use a 5w40 which they run in their race cars and they say it cures the oil usage for those motors that seem to use some. 

I actually think the boxer engine design while better than VW and P for strength I think the Japanese company missed a few things and allowed an oil consumption flaw in it's design.  Head gaskets being another area as well. 

I think there is some mention of some other boxer engine manufacturer using oil when put under strain. 

Subaru has had problems also with different metals causing electrolysis issues and they have a need to have a really good ground strap for the motor. 

I had heard of this before ..... See this post. 

"

You’re seeing some fairly good answers but they’ve left out a very important factor, the electrolysis issue. This is what Subaru had so much trouble understanding. When a flat engine stops all of the liquids (oil, un-burned fuel, etc.) falls downward. At the intersection of the different metals there at the bottom, along with this fluid mixture electrolysis occurs. To lower this effect Subaru improved the grounding straps, even adding additional one in some cases, to their engines.

This is why with a Subaru you should change the oil at 3,000 to 4,000 miles, your transmission fluid at 30,000 miles and your coolant every 3 years. This is to reduce the conductivity of these liquids. Also on a Subaru keep the ground post of your battery very clean so it has the best contact. So, conduction mixed with dis-similar metals mixed with corrosive chemicals was a problem it took Subaru a long time to understand the physics of in their particular case, it was quite elusive (and they are smart engineers too)."

BTW, some forums on 996 say oil consumption of 1 quart USA per 600miles is acceptable.   I really wonder if the boxer design is the issue and the higher performance and temperatures sometimes on those heads when they stop and the coolant is stationary and hence more cylinder head heat occurs. 

I love the torque of the engine and the driveability and it seems we have to live with the oil consumption.

I have been looking at the numbers for a Subaru EJ25 piston to cylinder wall clearance.

.003" seems to be the number. This seems high to me and could be the source of the excessive oil consumption.

I recall that we used to try for .004" to reduce drag on the pistons. It was expected that with that much clearance, there would be excessive oil consumption and a tiny amount of smoke from the exhaust.

Many new engines only allow .002 to .0025 clearance. I suspect that the Subaru oil consumption may be from this seemingly excessive amount of clearance. It's possible that Subaru discovered a need for this clearance that we are unaware of.

Any one else have an opinion ?    To me, this kind of excessive oil consumption is not acceptable.  Probably Total Seal rings would eliminate the problem. Only problem is....total disassembly to install a set................Bruce

Forged pistons are used for increased reliability at least in turbos and in some NA builds you could inquire of Outfront they used to be called Outback motors. 

I had enquired from LachutePerformance.com and the cost of doing a NA 2.5L was not for the faint of heart and they continued to press to do a turbo as the cost is the same for a much greater output.

Having torn down, literally, hundreds of these motors now I can tell you that aircooleds observation certainly lends itself to the issue, coupled with the fact that the ring grooves have virtually zero tolerance.  What we see most often is the rings are stuck in the ring grooves fully compressed and caked with carbon/oil/sludge build-up.  We actually been able to free some up with a kerosene soak on the engine, with mixed results.  But that's just one of the inherent issues with these motors... There are at least 3 other "unconventional" things we do to the motors to improve longevity and performance, but I can't give away all of my secrets... LOL

I struggle to buy the "flat 4's all do it" argument, or the electrolysis. As Allen said above, Bruce noted, and Carey confirmed-- oil consumption is primarily an engineering and machining issue, and there's no good excuse for it.

I'm more tolerant of stuff like this with Type 1s-- because the design is almost 90 years old, and VW's Sainted German Engineers never designed them to make 180 hp with 94 mm cylinders. The makers of those cylinders just feed a tiny market with what amounts to small-batch runs of imperfectly designed and machined parts. It's up to individual builders to worry about piston clearance, whether or not the rings are gong to get gas-ported, etc. The Type 1 is typically hot-rodded on a tight budget, to within a mm of just flying apart... so there are bound to be issues. It's baked in the cake.

But this thing with the EJ motors (to say nothing of the Porsche M96/97 failures) coming from a mass manufacturer, shady enough to say that a qt/1200 mi is normal, or that there's nothing wrong with an IMS failure at <50k mi is just inexcusable. These are giant companies with huge R/D budgets, who apparently decided that these engine design and manufacturing flaws were good enough for who it's for.

I really can't imagine how this would all be going down if it were Ford or GM we were talking about. Detroit-bashing has reached a point where people don't even think about it, they just kiss the blarney-stone, and move on. It's taken as a matter of faith that German and Japanese cars are "better" by every metric, and that nobody is the world could ever hold a candle to their superior engineering.

There is no perfect platform. 

Last edited by Stan Galat

I just love how nobody responded to my comments about the head gaskets. The Subaru gaskets are junk. Period. There are better gaskets out there that don't disintegrate and leak. 

But that is totally different from the oil consumption issue. I agree with Stan completely, the excess oil consumption is unacceptable. 

Danny, there are some tech shops specializing in Subies that have pretty much licked the head gasket issue using other companies head gaskets.  I read this site below comments years ago and I think they use six star but there are other companies as well. 

I do not think the issue is not as prevalent today but cavitation is a problem if coolant goes from a liquid to vapour it looses it's cooling effect.  Using Evans coolant helps too as it does not go to a gaz state so it can continue to cool the head. 

Others ways to prevent flash heating the heads seem to be to make sure you idle for a bit after a hard run.  The extreme guys have a circuit that runs the aux pump until the temp drops. 

 

https://allwheeldriveauto.com/...-head-gasket-repair/

I'm generally not a blue fan-- but this blue is way better than most others I've seen. I was a little worried with the fist picture, but this shot really brings out the gray in the color, and I like that a lot. I tend to think little-bitty cars look better in serious colors, as opposed to bright hues, but everybody has a different idea. 
 
I know you are set on red for the leather, but I'd (humbly) ask you to consider a nut brown (not tan, but a real brown)-- something similar to what Marty put up last week.
 
If it were mine-- I'd do black leather and never look back... but that's me.
 
You do you, @Lane Anderson.
Last edited by Stan Galat

I know this isn't the proper forum for this Subaru oil consumption issue so here's my last bit of info.  I was looking in at the Subaru specs again today. Besides having nearly double the piston side clearance of a VW the maximum allowable piston ring end gap is .040". The top ring was .010" to .020 as an OK tolerance. The oil rings are are considered within spec at .020" to .030" and no more than .040" ! VW is about .015" to .002" .  With this kind of clearances, no wonder they use oil !  I wonder why Subaru allows such wide open spaces ?...............Bruce

Lane Anderson posted:

I have to admit that I’ve started looking at some darker browns as a possible alternative to oxblood.

I'd encourage you to continue in that vein. Aesthetic choices have to be something you (and not anybody else) love-- but almost every brown compliments the blue where oxblood (depending on how red it is) can very easily fight it for attention (in my opinion).

"Oxblood" is a catchall and can be anything from mahogany to almost brown (with red overtones). IMHO, the more red it is, the worse it would look with blue (which sounds pretty strong, I know). Also, I would factor in that the longer an oxblood leather sits in the sun, the more washed out it will get and the pinker it is going to look (almost always).

Get what you want, Lane-- but you asked for opinions, and there it is.

Last edited by Stan Galat

 

Another thing to consider is that a coupe ain’t a Speedster.

Lighter colors make the interior of a small, closed car feel roomier. I think this is why most headliners are lighter colors.

We went with a light tan interior on our Mini Cooper, and it makes a huge difference (most of them have all black interiors).

For me, Oslo blue over tan really pops.

Just saying.

 

Last edited by Sacto Mitch

Here are all of our standard colors ever since we started working with Katzkin.  Everything is still hand sewn in house, but I was so impressed with the quality of their leather!!  We still offer Spinneybeck for those who have an odd color or the desire to pay 4-5x extra for the interior...
1st page and a half are standard, anything beyond that has a small premium.

Wow, that's an impressive array of colors, Carey. 

Lane, I know you're leaning toward Oxblood and/or brown, but for me grey looks awesome against a blue exterior, especially when you'll have some blue visible on the inside: parts of the door, dash, A-pillars, but especially the door sill. 

Good luck deciding, with Carey's myriad of interiors it'll be a tough decision.

Last edited by DannyP
Lane Anderson posted:

I have to admit that I’ve started looking at some darker browns as a possible alternative to oxblood.

Stan was alluding to this in his post above- from a design perspective, when putting colors together, usually when 1 color is quite strong (your car will be an attention grabber from the moment you see it, even from a block or more away!), as is your exterior Oslo blue, what generally works best in the interior is something that, even if it's quite different, is something that's a little 'softer' or more 'neutral'. Putting 2 colors together, both which are screaming for attention, is harder to do. It can be done, but it will be a real hit/miss thing, with the results not known until it's too late. The red interior of the Spyder Chris showed above works because the silver, even with a blue hue, is somewhat softer or 'unassertive'. The same with Gordon Nichol's Speedster- that wow red/wine/burgandy interior of his is surrounded by a more neutral exterior (in this case white).

If you are thinking of a brown interior, something along the lines of what either Alan Merklin or Wingd gave examples of, note that the exterior paint of none of those cars are strong attention grabbing, look at me! colors. Even though they're all gorgeous in their own right, they're somewhat subdued compared to their respective interiors. With a strong interior color in your car there will just be too much going on. Look for something a little softer and it will be stunning. 

Hope this helps. Al

Last edited by ALB
DannyP posted:

Wow, that's an impressive array of colors, Carey. 

Lane, I know you're leaning toward Oxblood and/or brown, but for me grey looks awesome against a blue exterior, especially when you'll have some blue visible on the inside: parts of the door, dash, A-pillars, but especially the door sill. 

Good luck deciding, with Carey's myriad of interiors it'll be a tough decision.

I am going with more of a Charcoal gray, but as seen in this pic, that lighter gray just pops out. Kinda like the 50's customs with their white interiors …blaubl

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What I found really helped me in choosing my colour is to goto the leather manuf site. The reason is that a palette like the one above does not always clearly tell you what is the root of the colour and it  may have hues of a base colour that you won't see until it is too late.  Ever paint a wall and you thought it was green and you find some blue in it. 


Well the site showed  me the root of the colour and hence I found the root of some colours we were considering had roots/tones that we feared would come out.

Check it out . 

chines1 posted:

Here are all of our standard colors ever since we started working with Katzkin.  Everything is still hand sewn in house, but I was so impressed with the quality of their leather!!  We still offer Spinneybeck for those who have an odd color or the desire to pay 4-5x extra for the interior...
1st page and a half are standard, anything beyond that has a small premium.

Good of you to offer choices Carey but cat skins seem a little much.   

 

Here is the colour chart I was speaking of https://www.spinneybeck.com/in...colorbook/categories

 

CLick on the side for a type of leather 

VO0957    This is the VOLO in my car.

BTW the sample looks a bit dark here on scrren here is also a pict of my interior.

FYI I have had this in two IM's so far.

It looks good and ages well and won't show deep cracks like the deep red colours

Lane.... Your welcome to do what you want but it may give you some ideas. 

 

 

 

 

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Last edited by IaM-Ray
IaM-Ray posted:

Thanks Bob, my daughter helped, me to choose the body colour and put together all the colour combination of interior and top colours.  We were going for a classic look.   Henry loved it.  Actually, another IM in England has pretty much the same colour palette.   Sure am happy IM has returned to building cars.

@IaM-Ray pictures please of pride and joy 👍😎👀

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