Just sold on BAT. Hope Lane got what he wanted for it.
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I love reading the comments on BAT - there are people that use it as a forum to tell everyone what they have already in their garage as a reason for not bidding…..
@NeenahSpeedster posted:I love reading the comments on BAT - there are people that use it as a forum to tell everyone what they have already in there garage as a reason for not bidding…..
haha so true "I would have bought it if not for my other supercars
$65,000 was a really good deal for that coupe.
$65K is a pretty good pile of money. Wonder what he's going to buy with it?? Hmmm . . . Some think Miata 
, I'm voting for Cayman.
My guess would be a replacement for his current ride. Fast , comfortable and safe. Can't go too far wrong with a Bimmer.
He already has one of those. ??
We had to drop the reserve. I would have expected more given the number of views and watchers, and particularly given the $83k VS of last week. Oh well...
Beautiful car! Hope We see new owner around on SE coast?
No idea. The winning bidder is from the northeast, so I doubt I'll see it again.
@Lane Anderson posted:We had to drop the reserve. I would have expected more given the number of views and watchers, and particularly given the $83k VS of last week. Oh well...
The world is upside down. The auction was perfect - the 3rd party Lane chose was attentive, transparent, and informative. There were over 100 really good, well-shot, clear photographs. Carey posted and answered questions at the perfect time. There were friends of Lane who posted personal affidavits for the car.
There was soooo much big talk - "I'm going to buy this car", then just disappearing when it came time to bid. If a pan-based Speedster (no matter how nice) is worth $83K, how in the world was a tube-framed coupe only worth $65K? The bidding was poised to take off.... and then just stalled out. I had the over/under at $90K in my mind, and I would have taken "over".
Building a nice coupe is 2x the work of a Speedster. The glass and trim alone adds a freakish amount of work. I've got no desire for one, but I've been told for years that the world is pining for them.
The mind reels. People have no idea what they're doing.
Wow... $65K + BAT fees is a STEAL! Crazy...
@Stan Galat posted:Building a nice coupe is 2x the work of a Speedster. The glass and trim alone adds a freakish amount of work. I've got no desire for one, but I've been told for years that the world is pining for them.
^this
The conversations Greg and I have about the glass/trim install process... just wow... I would say it is THE hardest part and takes a TON of time...
I figured at least 75k. Oh well.
I think Lane is still right side up on this deal.
I really had a vision of $80k - $85k as it is one unique Coupe...... I would have a difficult time letting it go for the $65k but as Lane said: "Oh well".
I hope my buddy Lane is good with the sale.
That's all that counts!
You might consider the Cayman S. I think you will fit, and it is a great car.
@Stan Galat posted:The world is upside down. The auction was perfect - the 3rd party Lane chose was attentive, transparent, and informative. There were over 100 really good, well-shot, clear photographs. Carey posted and answered questions at the perfect time. There were friends of Lane who posted personal affidavits for the car.
There was soooo much big talk - "I'm going to buy this car", then just disappearing when it came time to bid. If a pan-based Speedster (no matter how nice) is worth $83K, how in the world was a tube-framed coupe only worth $65K? The bidding was poised to take off.... and then just stalled out. I had the over/under at $90K in my mind, and I would have taken "over".
Building a nice coupe is 2x the work of a Speedster. The glass and trim alone adds a freakish amount of work. I've got no desire for one, but I've been told for years that the world is pining for them.
The mind reels. People have no idea what they're doing.
The vast majority of people are followers. That’s a trendsetter car.*
Same thing only different with Ed’s Spyder.
Personally, I would have held out for some post RNM emails. But it’s not my car.
* I’m old enough to remember how universally pilloried the first “Outlaw” cars were on BaT.
Historically, 356 coupes have always trailed speedsters and even cabriolets in final sale price. Five years ago, coupes brought less than half the price of a speedster/cabriolet (I’m talking originals, here, but it applies to replicas, too).
Yes, there is an enhanced demand right now for replica coupes, simply because of the low number being produced - sort of an artificial demand because of limited supply.
Lane! let us know what you land on as a replacement DD/weekend thrasher. Maybe a 680 hp Mitsubishi Eclipse set up for a road course? 😉 🤔
Knowing BAT I'll bet shiny Fuchs and plaid seats would have been worth about $10K. Auctions always remind me of what a friend called Varmint Theory, which is to say varmints are attracted to flashy objects.
Shrug it off, Lane and start the fun part, dreaming about what you'll do next! Don't forget, we're more than happy to chime in! Spending other people's money is one of our treasured pastimes.
@JMM (Michael) posted:Knowing BAT I'll bet shiny Fuchs and plaid seats would have been worth about $10K. Auctions always remind me of what a friend called Varmint Theory, which is to say varmints are attracted to flashy objects.
To be sure. The comments about the hubcaps (or lack of them) made it clear that the world is full of doofuses. I've got a set of polished 15" deep 6 clones that they'd have gone ape over. I don't want 'em.
The crowd wants what the crowd wants, and the crowd wants a Cloud 9 speced and marketed VMC Speedster, apparently. A thing is only worth what a buyer and seller agree it is.
We all try to follow the ups and downs of these auctions because we like to feel good about our decision to own and operate these contraptions - but that's a bad way to look at them, at least in my opinion. They're plastic clown cars, and we buy them or build them because we love them. Other people's love for them is going to ebb and flow with the fashion of the minute - and I couldn't care less. When replicas brought bupkis on the auction sites, I was pouring money and time into my car... not because I thought I'd get a great ROA (or even break even), but because I loved the stupid thing.
Now they're worth a fortune if you have the secret sauce combo, and a lot less if you don't.
Does that mean people should be specing their cars like Roy does, or like they want to? The things we generally value here are not the same thing Daddy Warbucks over on BaT is looking for. He wants a slavish replication of a 1957 356 Speedster. If that means a wheezy 1600 with dual Kadrons, then by golly the car should have a wheezy 1600 with dual Kadrons. 2L mills, cars with 911 shrouds, things with turbos or Subarus (or heaven help you, turbo Subarus) need not apply. It's not just that the good stuff doesn't add value, the good stuff actually seems to take it away.
Watch me not care. I watched this auction start to stop because I like Lane, and I wished him the best. I feel like he was robbed, and like Carey's craftsmanship was undervalued, but I don't feel like it hurt me financially - because my car was never an investment.
So, we get up, dust off, and head out to the garage to flush money down the rat-hole, as we always have - smug in the knowledge that everything we do to make our car more "ours" makes it less "theirs".
I'm good with that.
Catch 22. If more people had any idea it might sell that cheap, it would never have sold that cheap.
There were also a lot of questions as to how many miles were actually on the engine (before rebuild) vs the 4000 that were on the total build. The 3rd party seller tried to answer twice and still didn't provide an uber clear answer.
It's a blurry part of the replica world to newbies in that no one seems to know (or care to remember) and in this case came from an older Subaru, if I recall.
It's not enough to say it's a Subaru engine. I believe he said it came out of an '07 Subaru Legacy(?) but went on to say, quote "The mileage is 4,000 miles" with a new drive train.
It's the only part that comes across as a bit vague and wasn't done perfectly but as I said, applies to the whole replica world and VW engines as well.
I guess I'm lost. Both Lane and Carey pretty clearly stated that the shortblock was brand new from Subaru. The engine has 4000 mi on it. How is that "unknown" or ambiguous?
@Stan Galat, I enjoyed the reference to Daddy Warbucks. I wonder how many know who he is/was.
I also was very happy to see you say "I couldn't care less". So many say "I could care less" without realizing what they are actually saying.
Makes me think WTH am I doing building the style of Outlaw speedster that has been rolling around in my head for years. Maybe, the Berrien chassis with Mendeola suspension, Neal brakes, fiberglass tonneau etc. will not ring loud and wide. Perhaps, I should reconfigure my avenue of thought by selling off the 2165 in favor of a 1600cc w/ dual Solex carbs, hanging bumpers, driving lights, overriders, side molding, padded dash - brow and a Nardi horn button :~(
@Alan Merklin posted:Makes me think WTH am I doing building the style of Outlaw speedster that has been rolling around in my head for years. Maybe, the Berrien chassis with Mendeola suspension, Neal brakes, fiberglass tonneau etc. will not ring loud and wide. Perhaps, I should reconfigure my avenue of thought by selling off the 2165 in favor of a 1600cc w/ dual Solex carbs, hanging bumpers, driving lights, overriders, side molding, padded dash - brow and a Nardi horn button :~(
No way. On your build, saddling a special chassis with a standard motor in hopes of some conformity would be shooting yourself in the foot. The folks that appreciate the chassis would be put off by the motor and vice versa.
“Don’t change horses in the middle of the stream” 
You just gotta hope for the best if you’re building it to sell.
@JMM (Michael) posted:Knowing BAT I'll bet shiny Fuchs and plaid seats would have been worth about $10K. Auctions always remind me of what a friend called Varmint Theory, which is to say varmints are attracted to shiny objects
Ten grand?
ps: when did 14” Fuchs become a thing? There are two 356s on BaT with ‘em. (The other one has plaid interior, too. I guess it’s a thing now.) 
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Again, I feel like the slow kid, but if you didn't want to do a special build, Al, why did you buy such a special car?
There are still unfinished CMCs out there waiting to be built with swing-axles, rear drums, stock transaxles, and 1641s with single carbs.
The reserve was dropped? At the beginning of the auction an original 356 done in outlaw style came up at the same time, its currently at 50k with 9 hrs to go. Is BAT trying to protect the marque ie real vs plastic?. I also thought Lanes car would go out around 85k based on all the observations previously noted.
I also think the guy who said it was HIS car and tolled on and on and then disappeared didn't help as I think some might have thought, deep pockets here so why bother as he would just wait until the last minute and jump in.
His tone reminded me of Mr. Bansai
I want to thank everybody who chimed in with positive comments. I really appreciate that. As you might expect, I am a little disappointed in the hammer price as it was at the very bottom of my expected price window, but if I'd kept the car I would still have the same issues that prompted me to sell in the first place - My legs aren't getting any shorter after all .
So I guess it's time to move on. The question of the day is what will I buy next. The factors in play are:
- I'm retiring in a couple of years or so. At that point I won't be able to justify three cars. Also, if we move to the mountains as planned, finding a three car garage is pricey and difficult. I also feel the need to simplify things at this point in my life.
- I would be better off with one car for me that encompasses any practical needs I might have as well as scratching my sports car itch. Major practical needs can be dealt with using Pam's car, but sometimes that won't be feasible. I probably want something that I am comfortable taking to the track once or twice a year.
- Has modern safety features. This is a need largely because the drivers where I live are godawful. I hired an old buddy of mine a few years back who moved down from DC. He says the drivers here are worse - much worse. On top of that - and probably a factor in it - is the fact that the population in and around Charleston is exploding. The town of Mount Pleasant, where I live, has almost tripled in size since we moved here in 2002 and the roads are woefully behind that growth. I am paranoid every time I take the Beck out. On top of all this, there are virtually no nice, twisty backroads to drive on. The increasing unpleasantness of driving here is a significant reason I want to move to the mountains.
- I want something that is fun to drive, looks good, has a modicum of practicality, is reliable, and fits my budget. In other words, the perfect car (for me).
- If used, it must be relatively low mileage and in excellent condition. My last used car purchase was a '71 Pinto in '74.
So who are the candidates? In no particular order, they are:
- Porsche Cayman: Either new or used. New would be tough within my budget, but not impossible. A used '13-'16 981 Cayman S (6-cyl) is what most of my friends suggest. A new one would depend on whether or not I can find a dealer that will sell at sticker and not add one of those maddening markups.
- New BMW M240i. I'm not crazy about some of what they've done with the interior, but the size and packaging is similar to my 128i that I have enjoyed for the last 12 years. Unfortunately not available with a stick, but the BMW auto is almost as good as a PDK.
- New BMW M2. At the very edge of affordability and I'm not wild about the front fascia, but oooohhhh the power! And it's available with manual or automatic.
- A previous generation M2. Less expensive and nicer looking. I would have to get over the whole "used car" phobia, though.
- A new Supra, now available with a manual.
- A friend's lightly used Z4M40i convertible. Hmmm... Do I want a convertible?
- Other suggestions are welcomed.
So there you have it. I am consoling myself on the low sales price by looking ahead.
Well, Lane, think of all the fun you will now have finding that 'just perfect car for you'.
The choices you state above all have some appealing features, but no car will check every box. But at least you don't have to go shopping for a soccer mum van...
If I can add another option - for that drop top urge - a used 987.1 or 987.2 Boxster meets a lot of your criteria. Just buy wisely for this model.
Have fun.
Lane:
Our 2007 Cayman S is my DD. It's the automatic so Anna can drive it.
At 60,000 miles it performs flawlessly and I maintain it judiciously. I had to have some repair to the A/C and I replaced the passenger side window guide myself. The headliner started to sag (an oft documented shortcoming) and was replaced. The interior paint chips if you stare at it.
It wakes up at about 4000 rpm and can really scoot.
All in all, it makes a great DD. I don't track it.
Just a synopsis of our experience.
I imagine a newer one with low mileage, whatever trans, might scratch your itch. I would stick with the S as that is where the fun is.
Danny has one as well, as you know.
I'm with Bob. Find a really nice Boxster with the optional hard top or, for that matter, a really decent 996 convertible with the optional hard top - the best of both worlds.
Al and Heidi Gallo have a STUNNING metallic moss green 996 convertible with fawn leather interior. That, with the hard top, is drop-down gorgeous and they found it for less than half of what your coupe went for. Those cars are still out there......
Since this will end up being my one car (excluding Pam's Outback) I will only consider used back as fas as '14 or '15. One car I accidentally left of was a C8 Corvette, although getting one within my budget could be challenging.
The last new car purchase I made was in 1994, unless my coupe coming from Greg count as a new car. Anyway, cars like the older M2 or Cayman S can be found in very nice low mikeage condition. Get a prepurchase inspection done and go for it. I say buy the one that makes you smile like an idiot.
Some really nice 50's and 60's cars ( with A/ C) can be had within your budget but that is a completely different ball of wax. With that said and knowing our affection for the track I would lean towards a low lime Boxster. @ Paul Mossberg has one and loves it ~
In the absence of a Speedster (which would be my first suggestion), I'm going to join the Cayman chorus. Buy the best one you can afford, hang onto it, and spiff it up with wheels/tires, springs, etc. as money/time allows. Get the 6-cyl, and get the manual trans.
It's a small enough car to place on the road in the mountains, the steering is razor sharp, and going fast is not a big effort. The cabin is big enough for me, when even a C8 feels a bit tight.
Working on them is not something I'm interested in, but that goes for any modern vehicle, so there's that.
I don't think I would ever be satisfied with any of the choices, however.
@Stan Galat posted:In the absence of a Speedster (which would be my first suggestion), I'm going to join the Cayman chorus. Buy the best one you can afford, hang onto it, and spiff it up with wheels/tires, springs, etc. as money/time allows. Get the 6-cyl, and get the manual trans.
It's a small enough car to place on the road in the mountains, the steering is razor sharp, and going fast is not a big effort. The cabin is big enough for me, when even a C8 feels a bit tight.
Working on them is not something I'm interested in, but that goes for any modern vehicle, so there's that.
I don't think I would ever be satisfied with any of the choices, however.
I'm with Stan and the Cayman Crew. One of the most nimble satisfying Porsche's to drive. Here was my DD turned Garage Queen. Amazing drive 
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I sat in my buddys 2020 Cayman GT and it was too cramped for me(big muscles):} sticking with 17 CS 991.2
@Stan Galat posted:In the absence of a Speedster (which would be my first suggestion), I'm going to join the Cayman chorus. Buy the best one you can afford, hang onto it, and spiff it up with wheels/tires, springs, etc. as money/time allows. Get the 6-cyl, and get the manual trans.
It's a small enough car to place on the road in the mountains, the steering is razor sharp, and going fast is not a big effort. The cabin is big enough for me, when even a C8 feels a bit tight.
Working on them is not something I'm interested in, but that goes for any modern vehicle, so there's that.
I don't think I would ever be satisfied with any of the choices, however.
Yeah, Lane. Get a Cayman R. I test drove one once, and should have bought it when I had the chance. I've never felt so much at one with a car as I did with that. Steering as tight as a nun's you know what, acceleration up the wahoo, handling like not much else.
That would be my choice, if this model wasn't prized - and priced - so highly. Being a 2008, it's still analogue enough to be fun.
Buying new, the GTS is the sweet spot.
I was surprised to see there was no reserve on the car. Why? Because the information and the questions asked made me feel like we were dealing with a lot of neophytes who had to be educated on the car and as such it penalized Lane in the end value received.
Sorry Lane for the lossed potential. And for those reasons, I won't bid on Bat. I feel it is an unrealistic market and if they have those kinds of forced rules.
I won't play in their sandbox.
Lane still think you should at least look at the Nissan 400z. It’s a lot of performance for $40k.
@IaM-Ray posted:I was surprised to see there was no reserve on the car. Why? Because the information and the questions asked made me feel like we were dealing with a lot of neophytes who had to be educated on the car and as such it penalized Lane in the end value received.
Sorry Lane for the lossed potential. And for those reasons, I won't bid on Bat. I feel it is an unrealistic market and if they have those kinds of forced rules.
I won't play in their sandbox.
There was a reserve, Ray. We dropped it quite a bit toward the end, but it was still there. The winning bidder came in just above it.
@550 Phil posted:Lane still think you should at least look at the Nissan 400z. It’s a lot of performance for $40k.
And it looks good, too. The reviews are pretty disappointing, however. I'll probably still look at one.
@Stan Galat posted:Buying new, the GTS is the sweet spot.
Absolutely agree, but new they're well over $100k. Not gonna happen. Used ones are much more reasonable, and that's what some of my buddies here are pushing me toward.
I just went over to the Porsche configurator.
Apparently, the 718 GTS (like everything else) has gone up a good solid chunk in the last year. A friend of mine bought a '22 and the base 4.0 GTS on the configurator (when I last checked a year ago) was starting quite a bit less than the $90,300 they're going for now. I speced one then with ceramic rotors and it was coming up well south of $100K.
No more, for sure.
My friend just took delivery of his new 718 Spyder in chalk. Quite an amazing car.
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@Stan Galat posted:I just went over to the Porsche configurator.
Apparently, the 718 GTS (like everything else) has gone up a good solid chunk in the last year. A friend of mine bought a '22 and the base 4.0 GTS on the configurator (when I last checked a year ago) was starting quite a bit less than the $90,300 they're going for now. I speced one then with ceramic rotors and it was coming up well south of $100K.
No more, for sure.
PCCB for street use is horrendous. The Porsche PCCB's need a fair amount of heat to perform at their best and stop and go traffic won't give it to you. I don't know if other ceramics are this way but for Porsche, it matters. On a car bed for occasional track use it's a bit much. For track use you'd be better off with a set of ECB Red Stuff pads that you swap in when you're going to the track or use the ECB Yellow Stuff pads. Designed for street use but will perform remarkably well for "occasional" track use.
A LOT of guys/gals are just buying an "S" and adding a Cobb, or other appropriate tune, and boosting the hp closer to the GTS level without the added cost of the GTS.
Buy the car for what you'll use it for the most. Just like when the priest at our church wanted to build a new church that held 2K people. He wanted it that big because that's how many people came at Christmas and Easter even though the other 50 weeks per year only 400-500 showed up each Sunday. He got a church that held about 30% more than the average Sunday. The Chris-ters (Christmas-Easter folks) would just have to squeeze in a little. Lane can enjoy the occasional track day w/o PCCB's and still have a tremendous amount of fun.
"Buy the car for what you'll use it for the most."
Exactly. Unfortunately my "...what you'll use it for the most" is mostly driving in Charleston traffic. I really need to move to the mountains.
17 CS....420HP, added Cobb stage 1...guessing 480?..it unleashed the beast. Im maxxed on HP before I kill myself
@Lane Anderson posted:"Buy the car for what you'll use it for the most."
Exactly. Unfortunately my "...what you'll use it for the most" is mostly driving in Charleston traffic. I really need to move to the mountains.
A member on the 718 forum is walking away from the vehicle he ordered and it's for sale as of right now. It is on its way to Porsche Beaverton and it's a Cayman S, albeit a manual transmission. Not sure how that will relate to Charleston traffic: https://www.porschebeaverton.c...pe-wp0ab2a83ps268053
@Lane Anderson posted:"Buy the car for what you'll use it for the most."
Exactly. Unfortunately my "...what you'll use it for the most" is mostly driving in Charleston traffic. I really need to move to the mountains.
I feel your pain Lane. I often tell people owning a speedster (for me) is a lot like sailing. Before I set out on a drive, I need to plot my course. I review the weather, and potential traffic along the routes. My drives are timed to miss as much traffic as possible along said routes.
My friends w/ modern sports cars with automatic transmissions and climate control laugh. California does have some amazing drives......just getting to these drives requires some planning when you live amongst such a large population in a small area.
Nice car, Robert, but a bit more than I want to spend.
@Lane Anderson posted:Nice car, Robert, but a bit more than I want to spend.
This website will allow you to search Porsche dealers throughout the US:
Since we are spending Lane’s money.
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If you don’t need raw speed, get a base 718 Boxster(Sublime handling). Especially with the smaller 18 inch wheels. If you need Speed, all roads lead to C8 Vette.
@Gordon Nichols posted:I'm with Bob. Find a really nice Boxster with the optional hard top or, for that matter, a really decent 996 convertible with the optional hard top - the best of both worlds.
There's no hardtop available for a 718 series Boxster. And a test fit would definitely be in order for prior iterations. I'm pretty certain Lane won't fit in a first gen Boxster.
Have you considered a nice Speedster replica
@Lane Anderson posted:"Buy the car for what you'll use it for the most."
Exactly. Unfortunately my "...what you'll use it for the most" is mostly driving in Charleston traffic. I really need to move to the mountains.
Which is why maybe you should pause and wait for a minute. You still have the Bimmer.
And to every person who suggests an open car to Lane, he isn't buying one. He has skin issues and needs to stay OUT of the sun.
Besides, a Cayman is BETTER than a Boxster in every way: lighter, faster, and stiffer. Believe me, I've driven both. The Caymans all have a more raw driver's car edge to them.
Good luck with your search, Lane.
@Stan Galat posted:Buying new, the GTS is the sweet spot.
Maybe, but I'd have to have me a GT4 if I was going all-in.
@Alan Merklin posted:Makes me think WTH am I doing building the style of Outlaw speedster that has been rolling around in my head for years. Maybe, the Berrien chassis with Mendeola suspension, Neal brakes, fiberglass tonneau etc. will not ring loud and wide. Perhaps, I should reconfigure my avenue of thought by selling off the 2165 in favor of a 1600cc w/ dual Solex carbs, hanging bumpers, driving lights, overriders, side molding, padded dash - brow and a Nardi horn button :~(
Perhaps you should sell the project to someone who wants to build an outlaw performer, and go chase the $$$$ for a stocker that can be beat by my Mom(87) in her 4 cylinder 2003 Camry.
Make sure you do a plaid interior(vomit), they're all the rage with the kids these days.
Skin issues? Me too.
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So, what was the question?
A nice coupe for Lane?
Something quick but not pedestrian?
Maybe a little retro character?
Snug, but enough room to be comfortable?
Mechanical, connected, but not too rough around the edges?
Something not every Tom, Dick, and Rufus is likely to have?
Nice sound, but nothing rowdy?
Cool, but in a McQueen way?
Why do I keep coming back to this?
I'd definitely have one, except the driver's windshield wiper lifts off at speed (around 3:09 in the video)
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@DannyP posted:Perhaps you should sell the project to someone who wants to build an outlaw performer, and go chase the $$$$ for a stocker that can be beat by my Mom(87) in her 4 cylinder 2003 Camry.
Make sure you do a plaid interior(vomit), they're all the rage with the kids these days.
I'm building the Outlaw the way I have envisioned it for many years .......
Chip Foose was the culprit that started the "plaid fad" in the coupe's .
It will sell Alan to an educated buyer as the suspension alone is a cut above and will provide better handling.
Gawd I love that video, Mitch!!!!!
@Lane Anderson posted:Gawd I love that video, Mitch!!!!!
Yep. I've watched that video a number of time.
Just raw driving.
@IaM-Ray posted:It will sell Alan to an educated buyer as the suspension alone is a cut above and will provide better handling.
I agree.....but this buyer is not found on BaT. BaT is filled with emotional buyers, not necessarily knowledgeable buyers. Case in point, Teby's car. That car seemed to have all the BaT buyer's boxes checked, except a few: it's not a VMC, it's white and it didn't have photos of the car at the coast or at sunset.
Below are photos of all the cars that sold on BaT in the past year that fetched $60,000 or over; except one car which seemed to be a high-water mark for a VS. My takeaway from this research?
1. Only sell a VMC on BaT. Greg has built himself a great reputation that's well known across the US. The average buyer doesn't seem to be aware of Carey and Henry's reputation, as not many Beck/SE and Intermeccanica cars sell on BaT. And forget it if you have a CMC or Fiberfab.
2. If you don't have a VMC, install some black wheels and spring $1,000 for an amazing photographer to shoot your car.
3. Stay away from colorful cars and white.
4/8/22: VMC $61,000
5/18/22: VS $60,000 [NOTE: Black wheels]
7/25/22: VS $55,000; I included this one because it's pretty high for a VS. And it has black wheels
7/29/22: VMC $71,500
8/4/22: VMC $62,000
9/12/22: VMC $67,000
9/19/22: VMC $67,000
9/24/22: JPS $62,500. The big money seemed to come out in September. This JPS seemed to have instead in a photographer.
10/4/22: VMC $60,000
11/9/22: VMC $66,000
12/30/22: VS $60,000; black wheels
2/1/23: VMC $60,000
2/15/23: VMC $83,000
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Clearly "When the top goes down the price goes up" has more than a kernel of truth.
@Kevin - Bay Area posted:I agree.....but this buyer is not found on BaT. BaT is filled with emotional buyers, not necessarily knowledgeable buyers. Case in point, Teby's car. That car seemed to have all the BaT buyer's boxes checked, except a few: it's not a VMC, it's white and it didn't have photos of the car at the coast or at sunset.
Below are photos of all the cars that sold on BaT in the past year that fetched $60,000 or over; except one car which seemed to be a high-water mark for a VS. My takeaway from this research?
1. Only sell a VMC on BaT. Greg has built himself a great reputation that's well known across the US. The average buyer doesn't seem to be aware of Carey and Henry's reputation, as not many Beck/SE and Intermeccanica cars sell on BaT. And forget it if you have a CMC or Fiberfab.
2. If you don't have a VMC, install some black wheels and spring $1,000 for an amazing photographer to shoot your car.
3. Stay away from colorful cars and white.
What an amazing market analysis, Kevin - really thorough, with references to bolster the arguments you make. Well done.
I've been casually watching, though not at all as closely as you. But it only took one or two Beck/IM auction failures to pick up on the trend - cars from Beck and IM are consistently undervalued on BaT.
The things I value: purpose-built frames, more powerful engines, non-original (but very beneficial) upgrades - things that objectively make a car "better" and more usable as an automobile - these things are not just undervalued, they detract from the value of a car sold on BaT.
BaT buyers really seem to like pan-based cars. I'm not sure why. Perhaps it's the subjective connection between VW and Porsche. Perhaps Troy has been correct all these years, that it's the ease of registration. I don't know. I just note that on BaT at least, pan cars in general (and VMC cars in particular) are really, really highly valued. I think the JPS and VS cars in your example probably sold for 2x the purchase price.
Production has been much slower out of VMC than it was out of VS. In a market where there are too many buyers chasing too few cars, that's gotta be good for pan-based cars from VS and JPS. Those cars are probably not going to bring >$60K money for a while, but most of them were purchased for around $25K- $30K.
I expect a return on a market investment and a loss on an object of affection. None of us bought these as investments. I'll never see mine as such.
If you want to sell an Intermeccanica, hook up with Henry himself. He will market it for you and knows a lot of potential buyers.
Maybe his new shop will feature used Intermeccanicas...?
@Bob: IM S6 posted:If you want to sell an Intermeccanica, hook up with Henry himself. He will market it for you and knows a lot of potential buyers.
Maybe his new shop will feature used Intermeccanicas...?
Agreed. His commission was pretty stiff when it was IM, but he always had buyers waiting in the wings.
@Kevin - Bay Area posted:I feel your pain Lane. I often tell people owning a speedster (for me) is a lot like sailing. Before I set out on a drive, I need to plot my course. I review the weather, and potential traffic along the routes. My drives are timed to miss as much traffic as possible along said routes.
My friends w/ modern sports cars with automatic transmissions and climate control laugh. California does have some amazing drives......just getting to these drives requires some planning when you live amongst such a large population in a small area.
This is not an issue in any part of flyover country. We just put up the door and go for a drive. The good roads might not be right outside the door (like they are in some other places - I'm looking at you, @Carlos G), but neither are we sitting in stop/go traffic for an hour and a half just to break free from gridlock.
Every time I go to a city with major traffic, I wonder how you guys do it. I'd tear the wheel off my car if that was a part of daily life. Like all animals, people were never meant to be stacked on top of each other like that - it's why so many of them get weird when they are.
There's not a lot of guys with Ferraris, etc., but I think you'd like it out here.
A loooong time ago (late 1990's), I visited the Caterpillar facility in/near Peoria and I must say, it's pretty country out there. I was driven down there from Chicago and the difference getting to Peoria was refreshing. I remember a big lake or river or something that was a showpiece. Straight roads, but nice country and the folks at Caterpillar were great. We returned to Chicago and I couldn't wait to get the heck outta there.
Main reason I keep my Spyder in Charlottesville. In 20 minutes I’m on great roads. In 30 minutes I’m on the Blueridge Parkway. Nothing but straight flat roads in Norfolk/VA Beach. If I ever get the Pre A Coupe I’m going to try to keep it in Norfolk. I think my wife will like it and it will be nice to use it for trips for lunch and local car shows. I’m going to Charlottesville when I retire and the Coupe will come with me. My back will likely have outgrown the Spyder by then.
In case anyone has not paid attention to the current cost to order a new VMC, using Greg’s website, the following options for a turnkey speedster will set you back $61k.
- 2332cc engine (not an option, that is Greg’s standard offering)
- full tonneau
- GT bumpers and guards
- door pulls
- emblem hub caps
- German square weave carpet
- IRS
Add a retro radio, center exhaust, leather straps, stone guards, under dash e-brake, banjo wheel and beehives, and you approach $67k.
Inflation alone probably explains the price increase. Considering increased demand and the likelihood that costs will continue to rise during Greg’s ~24 month build cycle, I’m actually surprised the price Greg is asking hasn’t gone up more.
Maybe some BAT bidders who have decided they need a VMC parked in their garage have considered this?
Living in West Virginia, every single road is driving adventure, on one particular evening I did 35 miles of continues mountains and twisties never coming up on another car. That cost me a set and pads and cutting the vented rotors on our previous 328xi but it was an intense and memorial 50 minute BMW driving experience. Three different directions out of Elkins, WV is a 100 mile loop trip to return unless, you do a U turn :~)
@Gordon Nichols posted:A loooong time ago (late 1990's), I visited the Caterpillar facility in/near Peoria and I must say, it's pretty country out there. I was driven down there from Chicago and the difference getting to Peoria was refreshing. I remember a big lake or river or something that was a showpiece. Straight roads, but nice country and the folks at Caterpillar were great. We returned to Chicago and I couldn't wait to get the heck outta there.
It's the river - P-town is the River City, the minor league hockey team (probably moving out) is named the Rivermen. At Peoria, the Illinois River widens out into two big "lakes" (Upper Peoria Lake and Lower Peoria Lake), which have been the showpiece of the place since Marquette and Joliet decided it was a good spot for a fort.
Both lakes are filling in from agricultural erosion, and are mostly just mud-flats with a skim of water and a shipping channel down the edge of them now. It still looks nice, but nothing like it did 40 years ago when there were 100 sailboats out there every weekend.
I've talked about Cat and this town's relationship with Big Yellow, but we did get some good news this week (for once). The union and company came to a tentative agreement a couple of days ago on a contract dispute that looked 100% certain to end in a strike. It never materialized, which helps the psyche of the area more than you can imagine. It doesn't change the fundamentals, but everybody let out a collective sigh of relief when the reports came out. Membership still has to vote, so there's that.
And yeah, Chicago is a completely different world. The main difference is the steady (sleepy?) workmanlike approach of Peoria as opposed to the naked hustle of Chicago. Everybody up there has something in the works. It feels like every man, woman, and child is looking for an angle. Buying a vehicle there is terrifying.
The food is otherworldly good and you can find anything - absolutely anything - but you may sit on 90/94 for an hour and a half "just because" and you may get your side window smashed in because you have a phone holder somebody likes clipped to the vent of your car.
No thanks.
Lane, I put a deposit for you. You can thank me later
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And its Lane red! Just need to get wheels powder coated red!
@Alan Merklin posted:Living in West Virginia, every single road is driving adventure, on one particular evening I did 35 miles of continues mountains and twisties never coming up on another car. That cost me a set and pads and cutting the vented rotors on our previous 328xi but it was an intense and memorial 50 minute BMW driving experience. Three different directions out of Elkins, WV is a 100 mile loop trip to return unless, you do a U turn :~)
My daughter lived in Edmund WV - just outside Beckley near the New River and Galley Bridge. We were driving a back road to her house and a car came the other way as we crested a hill. She yelled put a wheel down? Huh? Went off side of the road as other car did. In that area of WV only the center (single lane) of the road is paved. Shoulders are potholed and gravel (if lucky). Fortunately, I was in my 4Runner.
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@DannyP posted:Which is why maybe you should pause and wait for a minute. You still have the Bimmer.
And to every person who suggests an open car to Lane, he isn't buying one. He has skin issues and needs to stay OUT of the sun.
Besides, a Cayman is BETTER than a Boxster in every way: lighter, faster, and stiffer. Believe me, I've driven both. The Caymans all have a more raw driver's car edge to them.
Good luck with your search, Lane.
I'd forgotten that. Not all of us know Lane personally either ....
My inyterest is in coupes or Speedsters with hardtops for that reason; my Dad ended up with a lot of skin cancer on his noggin'
I spent a fiar amount of time in WV riding motorcycles, sometmes solo, sometimes with my BIL and sometimes in a group of 30 riding a similar brand/model, met on a site like this.
People there are salt of the earth and the best, shirt of their back type if they like you. The alternative would not be near as enjoyable. Beautiful country.
I went to a hillbilly wedding *there words for it) where my motorcycle was in the wedding party and photos, I kid you not 
@Marty Grzynkowicz posted:Lane, I put a deposit for you. You can thank me later
Gee, thanks Marty!!!
In a serious note, does anyone know of a Porsche dealer that will sell at sticker and is not restricted from selling to folks from out of their "district"?
@Lane Anderson posted:Gee, thanks Marty!!!
In a serious note, does anyone know of a Porsche dealer that will sell at sticker and is not restricted from selling to folks from out of their "district"?
Here on the west coast (SoCal) - very doubtful. Even low mileage used ones are selling above new MSRP...
@WOLFGANG posted:And its Lane red! Just need to get wheels powder coated red!
My daughter lived in Edmund WV - just outside Beckley near the New River and Galley Bridge. We were driving a back road to her house and a car came the other way as we crested a hill. She yelled put a wheel down? Huh? Went off side of the road as other car did. In that area of WV only the center (single lane) of the road is paved. Shoulders are potholed and gravel (if lucky). Fortunately, I was in my 4Runner.
When I first moved here, the memorable quote was similar but all one word " Gityeroverendaleafruttnowson!" Oddly enough, there are many WV different dialects: straight laced perfect English then it wanes from the other side of town and so forth. The majority of people here are well educated, ( Still, (no pun) don't know how they all have the $80k pick up trucks) they're super warm hearted and will do anything to help a friend and or neighbor. People will call just to ask how we are doing a few days after seeing them and ask if we need anything, that's just the way it is. Even I have been well received and somewhat a-dopted. I can get any flavor quart of good Shine" delivered to your door overnight like the milkman did years ago and it's on the honor system too... you pay the next time "y'all happen upon them or their family member". ~ Almost Heaven applies here in song and good living ~
@Stan Galat posted:Agreed. His commission was pretty stiff when it was IM, but he always had buyers waiting in the wings.
It still is...but he'll get you a good deal.
@Lane Anderson posted:Gee, thanks Marty!!!
In a serious note, does anyone know of a Porsche dealer that will sell at sticker and is not restricted from selling to folks from out of their "district"?
@Lane Andersoncheck out this dealership they have shipping options for all their new and used cars.
Hey, Lane, if you want to work something out with that Beaverton dealer it's 2 miles from my house. I'd be happy to help. I'd also be happy to deliver it to the Carolinas with a full tank of gas and a selection of fast food wrappers in the passenger footwell.
@JMM (Michael) posted:Hey, Lane, if you want to work something out with that Beaverton dealer it's 2 miles from my house. I'd be happy to help. I'd also be happy to deliver it to the Carolinas with a full tank of gas and a selection of fast food wrappers in the passenger footwell.
I could prob co pilot/shotgun this endeavor lol.
Can confirm that Beaverton Porsche are decent folks to deal with. I was actually supposed to head up there today to test drive a ‘22 911 Carrera S w less than 2k miles on the odometer but the wife caught wind and now we have to have a talk at dinner tonight. Sigh. Chris Carreon is the rep I’ve spoken with @ Beaverton
I can also recommend these folks that are in town as well. https://www.grandprimotors.com Lots to choose from there.
good luck with your search and congrats on your sale @Lane Anderson
I see fascination in new Porsche. In 2016, I added up options I wanted which was nothing out of norm on many other cars. Gulp over $130k with no discounts. No German Euro pickup anymore - and when it was available dealer wanted extra $500 to place order using his allocation.
I ended up with the new Mazda MX-5 Miata. A small (too small for some), light weight, good power to weight ratio, nimble, reliable and great bang for buck. Mine only 155 hp but newer ('19 up) are 181 hp (same 2L displacement). Most new ones have LSD and Bilstein shocks - some with Brembo and BBS wheels. In addition to a soft top convertible - there is a retractible fastback - a targa like vehicle (open or coupe) weighing only 100 more. Fun car to drive without "get thrown in hp" of a Porsche. Car is small and many buy expecting something else (like Speedster replica?) - so lots of low mileage used examples out there. There is an 6 speed autotrans option with paddle shifter but no LSD. Lots of aftermarket parts - even supercharger which gives over 250 hp.
Zoom-Zoom.
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@Kevin - Bay Area posted:.... Before I set out on a drive, I need to plot my course. I review the weather, and potential traffic along the routes. My drives are timed to miss as much traffic as possible along said routes.
My friends w/ modern sports cars with automatic transmissions and climate control laugh. California does have some amazing drives......just getting to these drives requires some planning when you live amongst such a large population in a small area...
Kevin has found the path to Speedster happiness here on the fringes of urban sprawl.
Most of our cars just aren't too happy slogging it out in stalled traffic or on the freeway. They're lower and more open and exposed than modern sports machinery. The fan whining a foot behind your head doesn't help much. They're happy at 65, but start to sound a little stressed at 75.
I think that's why VMC's current 'normal' is a mild-tuned 2332 with gobs of low-end torque and a 3.44 final drive. Most of the driving videos I've seen of them show off how relaxed they sound on the interstate. Lane's drivetrain seemed to have that, too. I just wish the driving video showcased that a bit more.
Those of us with two liters or less choose our roads and our moments carefully. It's as much a battle against the summer sun and morning frost as it is against the War Rigs and Doof Wagons out there on The Five.
When you finally find your exit and some leafy two-lane, you breathe easy.
.
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I swear I saw that rig on 101 this morning....
Cayman. I said so a while back, and still believe. Although . . . a Boxster might do it too, because as far as I know, it has a really nice top that would be the correct sunshield and offer climate control almost all of the time. Then, when he hits the mountains in September, he can dance with the Speedsters with his top down and just put on an extra layer of sunscreen and wear a hat. That's what I do and I've been under the knife with my skin a couple of times. I have a dermatologist and plastic surgeon on retainer . . .
And Lane is surely blessed, as he has here more free advice about how to run his life than any three people could possibly use. At least he knows he's loved . . .
Yes. Yes I do.
@Stan Galat posted:Agreed. His commission was pretty stiff when it was IM, but he always had buyers waiting in the wings.
As the manufacturer he controlled the market for sure. In many ways outside of simple supply and demand he certainly influenced the selling valuation and I am sure he will return to some form of custom car café restoration or outsourcing when he is able.
@Stan Galat said. : I expect a return on a market investment and a loss on an object of affection. None of us bought these as investments. I'll never see mine as such…..
I do think if you look at the money spent though after a while most IM owners are able to get a lot of their investment/ money out of the car or at least cost per year or ownership and pleasure equation is very good and reasonable, even more so if you bought used before the market crazy set in.
Some here have recouped all of their funds depending on where they bought or sold in the inflation curve.
As to BAT they are an aberration to the market IMO and Alan and others will do well to stay away from that market where an education on our cars is required before a reasonable price is achieved.
I can assure you, Ray, that after all the monkey-work I’ve done on my car, that I could have bought 2 new ones for what I’ve burned.
I seriously don’t care.
But your a special case Stan and your allowed
@Stan Galat posted:I can assure you, Ray, that after all the monkey-work I’ve done on my car, that I could have bought 2 new ones for what I’ve burned.
I seriously don’t care.
Ditto. $1500 for dry sump pump, tank, and hoses. What was it, $1000 or so for my EFI? I've got another 3k minimum in trans parts and it isn't built yet. What about all the time fabricating parts?
I expect to get ZERO of that back, because I'm not thinking of selling it, ever. I built it for me, not "the market". Who cares what it "could be" worth?