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Lions, and tigers, and sticky carbs, oh my!

Lane AndersonLane AndersonMt. Pleasant, SC Supporting Member
Some of you will remember my travails with a sticky carb at this year's Carlisle gathering. After a good warm the driver's side carb would not return to idle unless you blipped the gas pretty hard. I've switched to a CSP bell-crank throttle linkage (love it, but it didn't solve the problem), and had that carb off several times for partial tear-down and cleaning. Recently the other carb started exhibiting the same behavior. I've done quite a lot of cleaning on both, although I still haven't found any place selling the magical "Sea Foam" that some of you talk about. The cleaning, a good tightening where appropriate, multiple return springs, and balancing the throttle linkage has made the problem less bad, with it usually not sticking above 1500-1700 rpm, but it's still annoying. Other than this, the car is running beautifully, but I would really like to fix it.

I have verified that I cannot remove the butterflies without major surgery as the ends of the screws holding them in have been spread. That prevents me from any cleaning, burnishing, etc., that requires removal of the throttle shafts. At this point, my only ideas are:

1. Switch to Dells - If I could find a set that had been rebuilt and setup properly (Art Threan?). Kinda pricey.
2. Switch EFI - REALLY pricey!
3. Put HUGE return springs on the throttle and consider every drive an exercise regimen for my right leg - I currently have 7 springs: 1 built into each carb, 1 built into the bell-crank, and two external ones on each carb. Don't really want any more.
4. Try to find a voodoo witch in one of the Gullah barrier island communities and have her cast a spell on the car.
5. Live with it.

As you can see, none of my choices are particularly good. I will remove the carbs (again!) and give the throttle shaft as good a cleaning and lube as possible if/when I find some Sea Foam, but that's about all I know to do. Anybody got a better idea?

1964 Beck Super Coupe

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Lane AndersonLane AndersonMt. Pleasant, SC Supporting Member
Some of you will remember my travails with a sticky carb at this year's Carlisle gathering. After a good warm the driver's side carb would not return to idle unless you blipped the gas pretty hard. I've switched to a CSP bell-crank throttle linkage (love it, but it didn't solve the problem), and had that carb off several times for partial tear-down and cleaning. Recently the other carb started exhibiting the same behavior. I've done quite a lot of cleaning on both, although I still haven't found any place selling the magical "Sea Foam" that some of you talk about. The cleaning, a good tightening where appropriate, multiple return springs, and balancing the throttle linkage has made the problem less bad, with it usually not sticking above 1500-1700 rpm, but it's still annoying. Other than this, the car is running beautifully, but I would really like to fix it.

I have verified that I cannot remove the butterflies without major surgery as the ends of the screws holding them in have been spread. That prevents me from any cleaning, burnishing, etc., that requires removal of the throttle shafts. At this point, my only ideas are:

1. Switch to Dells - If I could find a set that had been rebuilt and setup properly (Art Threan?). Kinda pricey.
2. Switch EFI - REALLY pricey!
3. Put HUGE return springs on the throttle and consider every drive an exercise regimen for my right leg - I currently have 7 springs: 1 built into each carb, 1 built into the bell-crank, and two external ones on each carb. Don't really want any more.
4. Try to find a voodoo witch in one of the Gullah barrier island communities and have her cast a spell on the car.
5. Live with it.

As you can see, none of my choices are particularly good. I will remove the carbs (again!) and give the throttle shaft as good a cleaning and lube as possible if/when I find some Sea Foam, but that's about all I know to do. Anybody got a better idea?
Jack CrosbyJack CrosbyHot Springs, AR, VS RabyTypeIV
Lane--Ditto what Bill said---I swapped my Webers (HPMX clones) for Dells and love the driveability---feels like fuel injection. These are supposed to be very reliable as far as needing tweaking all the time. I really like 'em----same for Cory's Hoopty. Give Art Thaen a call and see what he wants for a like-new set that he has blueprinted and even improved from when they were new.

I am a big convert to Dells---there are actually ball-bearings in them to insure smooth working ---these are lacking in Webers. I understand that Webers were primarily a carb for racing so you have idle and you have full open circuits---Dells have 4-5 so you get a smoother transition from one circuit to the other. Also the Dells are supposed to be more forgiving of altitude changes so if someone drives a lot into various altitudes, like you do, you might have an advantage.

Can you say "money pit?"
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
Actually, #4 is the most practical, although they don't call themselves witches; they are called priestesses.

The last great practicioner was actually James Edwin (Ed) McTeer, who was sheriff of Beaufort county for 37 years, up into the 70's (yes, a sheriff, a "Root Doctor" and VooDoo Priest, all in one - only in South Carolina). His great nemesis was Doctor Buzzard who was married to the Priestess who was a main character in "Midnight in the Garden of good and evil". She just died a couple of years ago, but may still be around to help ;>)

Anyway, Gullah history lesson over. Leave the carbs on the car. Removing the carbs to clean them doesn't seem to be working well, nor does adding 300 ft. lbs of return springs. All you're doing is band-aiding the wrong problem. The real problem is one of three, and you'll have to find which one by the process of elimination.

The problems may be a bent throttle shaft (highly unlikely, but possible), a slipped throttle butterfly coming in contact with the inside diameter of the carb throat (reatively unlikely), or (most likely) a gummed up throttle shaft.

To eliminate the third one, it IS best to remove the throttle shaft and clean it well, because 1/4 of the length of the shaft is inside of the carb case between the throats and you can't get to it from the outside.

I would have to see the throttle plate screws to decide how to proceed, but I suppose the best option would be to send them both to a qualified, known Weber service guy to clean them out. He would have replacement throttle plate screws and the carbs would be returned like new.

Sometimes, although rarely, liberal amounts of carb cleaner sprayed onto the throttle shaft ends can get the shaft to free up, but I've never had that work with Webers because of the pass-through in the middle of the housing.

So, either figure out a way to get the shafts out or send them to someone who works on Webers.
Willy PWilly P
Lane go here---www.seafoamsales.com and check out the products.. The Deep Creep sounds like it may help you. I have never seen any of the products except the Motor Treatment. I add that to gasoline in my cars and boats. I have had it clear minor crab sputtering, and it is good for storing a vahicle for a few months so that the moisture will not ruin the gas or affect your carbs. You have O'Reilly's Autoparts stores in the Charleston area. They carry the Seafoam brand. Good luck. I don't know how to locate a Gulla Princess, but if I come up your way, we can start at your favorite watering hole and drink our way till we come up with something!
Stan GalatStan Galat
I vote for Option 6: If you like your carb set-up, and you don't want to spend $600 for Art Thraen prepped Dells, then just send Art your IDFs and have him fix 'em. You could probably just send him the throttle plates this winter and have Dave pull them apart and re-bush them for less than $200.

Do not put a big 'ol spring on them. If you need more than the springs on the carbs themselves, then you have a problem with your linkage.
Troy SloanTroy Sloan Supporting Member
Lane.
I know you know a lot about these cars, so forgive me for asking some very basic questions. Do the carbs bind when you have them off the car or do they seem perfectly fine? Have you replaced the gaskets or tried placing two gaskets under each carb?
I'm asking these questions, because I had the same problem. My carbs would bind when I put them on the car and tighten them down, but they were fine when I took them off. It turned out that all I needed to do was replace the gaskets and the problem was solved.
Troy
FM Former Member
All, I have seen Lane's problem in person. It ain't the linkage or the throttle pedal. It is the driver's side carb. I like the suggestion of the gasket, but how about the flatness of the manifold? It could be tweaking the carb body when you tighten it down, or it could be a manufacturing burr on the throttle shaft, a bent shaft, just dirty, or a throttle plate is brushing the wall of the the bore.

Lane, next time you have them off, put a straightedge on the manifolds and eyeball for flatness.

Lane's Webers work pretty well, but if he wants Dells that's his decision. Seems like a lot of people like to spend other's money!
Lane AndersonLane AndersonMt. Pleasant, SC Supporting Member
As I said at the top, it's now both carbs. The driver's side just started earlier. Nothing binds at all when the car is cold. It only occurs after the engine compartment has had a good heat soak so that all the metals bits have expanded.

I believe that will:

1. Get some of the Seafoam stuff recommended by Will and pour it in a pan to a depth of 1 inch or so (deep enough to cover the throttle shafts). I will then set the carbs in the pan for a good soak on the throttle shafts. Once that's done, I'll wipe or otherwise dry it off. Should I lube with silicone or something else, or just leave alone?

2. While off, I will check the manifolds for flatness, but given the heat-related nature, I don't expect that to be the problem.

3. If none of the above solves it, I will wait until January or so and send them to Mr. Thraen. It's too nice here through December to be Speedsterless.
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
Uh, yes, it's time to replace them. They should be replaced whenever you remove the carbs, but that's another story. I usually by them in sets of ten so I always have some on hand (which usually get used by other folks).

Try this:

Have you ever tried loosening the carb hold-down nuts to less than finger tight and see if the throttle shafts still stick? This is best tried without all of the rest of the linkage attached. Remove the linkage and try the suspect carb to get a feel for the sticking action (where and how it feels), then loosen the nuts and try it again.

Maybe the gaskets are harder to compress on one side or something, causing the carb casting to distort over time.

Plus, if you're running the same carb base gaskets after multiple carb removals/replacement, those gaskets are highly suspect and I wouldn't trust them anymore.

Someone mentioned checking the carb base flange for flatness - that's a mandatory check, as is checking the mating flange on the intake manifold to make sure it's flat, too. I have a stainless Starrett 8" straight edge that I only use for checking that sort of stuff (sadly, it's in Mass.) but you get the idea. Place it on the flange and then try slowly moving it around in increments of 45 degrees to make sure you get a true representation of the surface.

Just remember that a suspect gasket (especially a thick, mushy one)can easily cause the base flange to distort, especially if excessive torque is used on the hold-down nuts. That may be just enough to cause something to get in a bind (besides your nuts).

Good luck!

gn
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
Danny (or Lane):

You were looking at Lane's carb(s) at Carlisle - What, exactly, happens when the throttle pall tries to return to rest? Does it physically not touch the idle stop? If so, how much is it off? .010? 050? More or Less? Can you actually see that it doesn't hit the idle stop? Inquiring minds want to know......

BTW: Putting moosey return springs on temperamental throttle actuators doesn't actually solve the problem - but you knew that already, didn't you?

Lane: Advance Auto Parts, 17 North in Mt. Pleasant supposedly has (or can get) most sea foam products (according to the Advance website), or just about any Marine store (West Marine (two in Charleston), Boater's World, etc). You could also order it on some of the web sites and pick it up at the store you designate (and save the shipping).

gn

P.S.: If you don't see the bad condition when the carb is off the manifold and sitting on a bench, wait til your wife is away and put the carb in a 200 degree oven to heat soak it for 30-45 minutes, then try it.

Air out the oven (and the kitchen) thoroughly after use or you'll catch hell from the wife. Maybe you will, anyway |>( . Alternatively, use an old kitchen counter toaster/oven and run it up to 200-250 but no higher - the thermostats in those are notoriously inaccurate.

P.P.S.: My money is still on a new set of base gaskets

P.P.P.S.: If you heat soak it in an oven and it still doesn't bind, then see P.P.S.
Lane AndersonLane AndersonMt. Pleasant, SC Supporting Member
Well, it appears that there's still an issue with sticking. I have also had some clogged jets lately (crappy gas?). I disassembled and cleaned the carbs, including cleaning out the floats, and put them back on. The first test drive sucked, but when I got home I noticed a pair of main jets sitting in my tool tray. Oops! Guess I got in a hurry. It runs much better (shocked it would run up to 60 without them), but just didn't seem smooth, so I rechecked the sync with my "snail" and found them quite a bit apart (gauge read 5 on one side and 3 on the other). I haven't driven it since, but expect some improvement. It DOES idle more smoothly. Still concerned about the sticky idle, tho'. I can live with an idle up to 1500 if I have to for the Asheville trip.

Seriously considering Art Thraen this winter. Either to rework the Webers or to replace 'em with Dells. I don't think I want another set of Webers any time soon.
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