Hey guys - new to the group.
I'm looking to purchase a Speedster Replica (possibly built by Intermeccanica in early 2000's), and it has a 1640cc engine in it. Is that big enough? Fast enough? Will I regret not buying one with a bigger engine?
Not looking to race it - just want to cruise and have fun.
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A 1641 with stock dual port heads and dual carbs will make 70-75 horsepower and still be fun to drive. You may find that after getting familiar with the car it could leave you wanting more or you could be perfectly happy with the car the way it is. If your happy with the price of the car you're looking at then drive it the way it is; you could always update at a later time. It's part of what we call 'The Madness', and we're really good at helping you with things like this. Of course, more hp means better brakes, and maybe a little wider wheels/tires so it handles better, and maybe a 5 speed...
Thanks Robert, but I already have my eye on a car, and I plan on buying it before the end of the week. Just wondering if the engine is going to be something I'll regret later on since I haven't driven other cars. Is the 1600cc engine too slow or given the lightweight fiberglass body, 75 hp is going to good enough to enjoy on a summer day.
@ALB posted:A 1641 with stock dual port heads and dual carbs will make 70-75 horsepower and still be fun to drive. You may find that after getting familiar with the car it could leave you wanting more or you could be perfectly happy with the car the way it is. If your happy with the price of the car you're looking at then drive it the way it is; you could always update at a later time. It's part of what we call 'The Madness', and we're really good at helping you with things like this. Of course, more hp means better brakes, and maybe a little wider wheels/tires so it handles better, and maybe a 5 speed...
Thanks for the response! It's basically a brand new replica (less than 200 miles), I love the color, but it's unclear who built the car. The guy thinks its Intermeccanica, but can't confirm. He's asking $30k for it. Doesn't come with a top or any windows. Built in early 2000's on a 1965 VW chassis.
Be Careful. This info and the price don't jive. If it was built a long time ago and only has 200 ,miles on it I find that to be a red flag. Why wasn't the car driven in all that time? usually because it doesn't drive very well. The 30K price will buy you a very nice well sorted Speedster with the top and side curtains. Look at the classified section on this forum. The forum moderator has a Intermeccanica for sale at about the same price and it is a very nice car. Check some out. Lurk on the site, get to know what's what, and you will be better off for it. Welcome to the madness!
@Jimmy V. posted:Be Careful. This info and the price don't jive. If it was built a long time ago and only has 200 ,miles on it I find that to be a red flag. Why wasn't the car driven in all that time? usually because it doesn't drive very well. The 30K price will buy you a very nice well sorted Speedster with the top and side curtains. Look at the classified section on this forum. The forum moderator has a Intermeccanica for sale at about the same price and it is a very nice car. Check some out. Lurk on the site, get to know what's what, and you will be better off for it. Welcome to the madness!
Thanks! Apparently the cars been in a wine cave and not driven since purchase. I’m having a PPI conducted in the morning to check it out - let’s see what comes of that! I saw the one on sale - don’t want a red car.
It has a 69mm crank with 87 mm P&C - so 1641 cc. That extra 1 cc counts.
Check the hinges for the front hood and rear engine lid. If it is an IM, they will have INTERMECCANICA stamped (raised casting) in them -- if they are plain then it is a CMC/FF. A top and windows will cost $1k. Built in early 2000's on a 1965 VW chassis with only 200 miles - sounds more like a CMC. I have one sitting in my wine cave! Also check to see if painted or OEM CMC gel coat.
I'd think 70-75 HP would be wishful thinking over the stock 1584 cc 50 hp engine (69 x 85.5) - referred to as a 1600. It would need some good heads, cam and exhaust. Even fiberglass, it still weighs 1800 pounds.
How is it registered? What does the title say? has it been registered in Cal. ? Have you checked on the possibility of getting it on the road without flaming hoops? 1965 has a link pin front end. If you plan to drive on freeways you may want taller gears in a 1641. Had one , they will get you down the road but not with a lot of gusto. Drive the car.
I would love to see you buy it and be happy, but none of us want you to get scrod.
Please let us know how it goes. We're pullin' for ya.
Thanks for all the amazing replies! Wish I came here sooner. Since I got some private messages asking for the car listing, here it is:
https://www.desertprivatecolle...TER-REPLICA-1965-VW/
I'm open to hear your thoughts. If you think I should pass on this car, I will, as I'm not much of a car guy, and don't want to get screwed! I'll eat the $150 spent on the PPI I'm getting done tomorrow morning.
It's currently registered in AZ, but the dealer said he can register it here in CA as a 1965 VW.
The motor looks a little rough for only 200 miles and I wasn't able to see the "Intermeccanica" name on the engine lid hinges. There also seems to be something going on with the passenger door card/fit and the door handle is missing. I'm also not familiar with those gauges being used in the car, they look more like 914 gauges and I don't know if IM used those or not. The car does have 10 slot rims which are nice but it is still a four lug rim based on the hubcaps. Overall the car looks clean and needs a good polish and the chrome bits cleaned up.
IMHO it isn't a $30K car though. Closer to a $24-$25K car without the top and the smaller single carb motor.
The car is worth what you want to pay for it. That being said, I'd agree with Robert. It looks more like a $24K car. I've got an older Intermeccanica and the chrome carpet trim looks different and the front yellow beehive lights look a little wrong. The color is nice, but I suspect you could either do better or pay less. In any event, it's clear you've already caught the madness and you should plan on spending a lot of time on this forum. Welcome!
Mike
Hahaha definitely caught the madness! Thanks!
Did you all see what someone did to the engine compartment lid? They cut the rain shield out so the center mount Weber carb would clear the lid. Definitely no being caught in the rain. I guess that is why they removed the top and windshield wipers.
Now I know why I’m so confused. The OP changed his screen name. Lol
Sorry! Just getting acquainted with the site!
Pretty car.
The heart wants what the heart wants
... 70 hp is about what a good-sized lawn tractor puts out. Each pony this car has corralled costs about $430. If a new car cost $438/hp, a Dodge Hellcat would run $302,600 +/-.
@Stan Galat posted:Pretty car.
The heart wants what the heart wants
Stan's got it right. If you want it, go ahead and plan on spending some time and money changing it until it's the car you really want. Engine too small, no problem... Not an Intermeccanica, no problem. No rock chips on the front bumpers, no problem. Need to install a top, no problem. Oops, bought the wrong car, no problem.
A lot of these beasts were kit cars so there's a lot of expertise here on how to solve almost any problem or how to make changes to personalize your ride. The key to having the coolest car is to make yourself happy. Forget what other people think. It's not their car!
That being said, I've had 5 or 6 people honk, wave or yell cool car at me today. It's hard to mess up these little plastic treasures as hard as I try :-)
I'd do a lot more shopping before I would buy that car. A 1640 engine will soon get you completely frustrated with the lack of power. I made the same mistake with my first speedster buy, which I sold the same summer I bought it.
You state that you are not much of a car guy, and I think that is obvious. You are caught up in the romance and dream of a sweet little two seater sports car that looks lovely in pictures. I think you have bought the seller's pitch completely, as so many other first time speedster buyers have done, and as so many have subsequently regretted their impulsive purchase. I did the same years ago.
It's clear you are chasing this car based on emotion, not on logic. I am not recommending you buy the 'red car' that is advertised on this site, but for the same amount of money, this 'red car' is three times the car. Anyone being rational, and not being caught up in the dream of speedster ownership, would do a straight forward comparison, and would come to a rational decision that for the same amount of money you want to spend on this incomplete speedster, you could buy a much better vehicle.
You need to slow down, do some rational thinking, and a lot more shopping, before you end up with a less than fully useful speedster that you will soon realize is not what you really want.
I agree with Bob. Take a deep breath, slow down, and look at (and drive?) some before you jump at the first one. I think this particular car is overpriced, particularly when compared to others like David Bayne's red car. His may not be the style you want, but use the quality and features as a benchmark for comparison. You'll be much happier if you wait a bit.
That said, "Welcome to the Madness!"
Thank you so much for the thoughtful responses. I think I had my hesitations about this car and that’s what lead me to this site. I have done plenty of research and have general knowledge of these cars, but I guess it’s all in the details.
Thanks for saving me the hassle of buying something I’d regret.
Here's some issues with the engine compartment-
No hood release cable - so lid must flop up and down (assume no pin on hood to secure)
No shroud to heater boxes hoses nor are the openings blocked off - allow escape of cooling air and heated exhaust air into engine compartment
Gaps in cooling tins - can see asphalt
Engine tin around intake pre-heat hacked (cut) up
@RayRay19, I have a couple of suggestions. Get in touch with Troy Sloan (on this site) and Alan Merklin (also here) as both of them buy, improve, and resell used Speedsters. They can be on the look out for just exactly what you want, or they can change one into it. Also check with the folks at Special Edition/Beck (www.beckspeedster.com) as they often get used Becks in, refurbish them, and resell. That's how I sold mine some months ago. All of the folks named in this post can provide you with a top quality car at a fair price, and can be trusted to take care of you.
@Lane Anderson posted:@RayRay19, I have a couple of suggestions. Get in touch with Troy Sloan (on this site) and Alan Merklin (also here) as both of them buy, improve, and resell used Speedsters. They can be on the look out for just exactly what you want, or they can change one into it. Also check with the folks at Special Edition/Beck (www.beckspeedster.com) as they often get used Becks in, refurbish them, and resell. That's how I sold mine some months ago. All of the folks named in this post can provide you with a top quality car at a fair price, and can be trusted to take care of you.
Thanks @Lane Anderson!
@Alan Merklin - Please let me know if you have anything available coming up!
I am working on a speedster build that is already sold, I may do another over the summer. If you can locate one that needs work I can refurbish it for you.
Update: there is actually an IM badge on the hinge of the car. PPI showed some stuff that needs fixing (door handle Broken, needs new tires, small oil leak) , but he said the car is in generally good shape.
Now that this is on the hinge, does that change anything?
@RayRay19 posted:Update: there is actually an IM badge on the hinge of the car. PPI showed some stuff that needs fixing (door handle Broken, needs new tires, small oil leak) , but he said the car is in generally good shape.
Now that this is on the hinge, does that change anything?
I own an Intermeccanica, which I ordered as a coach in 2005. I know what they are all about, but they became something different when they went to the proprietary frame.
Does it change everything to find "Intermeccanica" stamped on the hinge of this car? There was a guy from Australia on here recently who thought it did. He told us he had a vehicle of historical significance, and wanted to obtain a "Certificate of Authenticity" for his replica.
Personally, I'm not convinced it increases the value of the car all that much. It's still a pan based car, without a top or side curtains, with a very small engine and a stock 4-speed. It presents well. If you like it, and you think it's worth $30k, then buy it and be happy.
What we think doesn't have very much relevance here. I suspect you didn't marry your wife because your friends liked her. This is kind of like that.
You clearly want this car. A thing is worth what the buyer and seller agree it is. We've expressed our opinions regarding the value of the car, relative to what others have been selling for. But if you want this one, and are looking for a reason to pull the trigger-- that stamp on the hinge is as good as anything.
I can't give you any more affirmation than that.
Stan's got it when he says you didn't marry your wife because your friends liked her. And it is like that. I will say that I am amazed at how many guys pop onto this site lately willing to spend 30 large and walk right by Theron's red Intermeccanica, tube frame, roadster. If I hadn't had my heart set on a coupe done a certain way I'd have snapped that one up pronto.
@Stan Galat Thanks for your valuable input. After speaking to the guys at IM directly, I learned that this car was probably built in 1980, and that CMC used leftover IM hinges when they took over the business. So you guys were right - it is most likely a CMC car, 15% chance it’s an IM
As for this being like choosing your wife, I beg to differ. I dated many girls before I met my wife and I knew what I was looking for and what was right for me. On the other hand I’ve never bought a classic car, let alone a replica. also, I bet you didn’t join a website to talk about your wife and her parts, what she looks like compared to other wives, and if you should sell her with other people.
I’m here to learn and ask questions, and over the past two days I’ve learned a lot from all of you. It has been very valuable and an interesting experience. I wasn’t looking for anyone to affirm as to whether or not they liked the car, but rather, if it was a good buy, or if I was getting screwed. Actually, this all started out with whether or not a 1641cc engine was fast enough
I will not be offering to buy this car for $30k, and I have this forum to thank. I appreciate it. I look forward to finding the right car soon.
You'll find it. It may take a while.
I never heard of CMC using IM hinges but mine is a 1988 kit --- so no id at all on hinges. Indeed CMC did buy up IM Speedster molds, tooling and guess other stuff in 1979. The Manf Id that IM put on passengers side door frame was just a a foil sticker that often get removed during a repainting. The 200 miles is very unusual if IM built it in 1980. It isn't unusual for a CMC to site for years unfinished - still some in crates. Not sure how one imports a CMC kit into Canada though. Wonder what the title says and where the '65 VW chassis came from. Sure is a mystery!
@WOLFGANG posted:I never heard of CMC using IM hinges but mine is a 1988 kit --- so no id at all on hinges. Indeed CMC did buy up IM Speedster molds, tooling and guess other stuff in 1979. The Manf Id that IM put on passengers side door frame was just a a foil sticker that often get removed during a repainting. The 200 miles is very unusual if IM built it in 1980. It isn't unusual for a CMC to site for years unfinished - still some in crates. Not sure how one imports a CMC kit into Canada though. Wonder what the title says and where the '65 VW chassis came from. Sure is a mystery!
A very interesting mystery. Just to note, here is what I got from IM:
Robert Ruskey of Intermeccanica here. I’ll be taking this inquiry over from Henry.
Thanks for the photo of the hood hinges. Yes, the car is highly likely to be an Intermeccanica built in Santa Ana, CA between the years 1976-80.
The reason I can’t say absolutely for certain just yet is that there were a few in the later years that ‘snuck by’ as Intermeccanica’s with these
hinges after the company tooling was sold to CMC back around 1980-81.
I remember seeing this Speedster being offered for sale for a long time. It isn't selling at that price for a reason. Good pass Ray.
Weird question but considering how perfect/new the nut holding the lid hinge is, is it possible the hinges were somehow bought and added to this non IM later/recently? 
I don't care how many miles are on the car, these should look older
@WNGD posted:Weird question but considering how perfect/new the nut holding the lid hinge is, is it possible the hinges were somehow bought and added to this non IM later/recently?
I don't care how many miles are on the car, these should look older
Great question - apparently the car wasn't driven much and was sitting in a wine cave. I was wrong - the car has 2300 miles, not 200. That's why it's so clean.
Plausible answer but cars age just sitting. Wine cave? Perhaps but my Spider Sense is tingling.
Batcave ? 
@RayRay19, as you can see from the above posts we do have a tendency to go off on tangents (it's called thread drift), which can fluster those who are new to this group. Before too long we'll be talking about Marty's leather gloves, car-themed watches, espresso, and who knows what. It's among our many endearing traits.
Assuming the world has returned to some semblance of normalcy in August, please join us in Carlisle, PA. You'll have a great time with some crazy (in a good way) folks and you'll be able to see and compare various cars of all price levels from all of the manufacturers. You'll probably get to drive some as well. I did that back in '05 after lurking here for a number of months, and I made many new friends before I ever got a car, which was actually assembled at the '06 Carlisle show by those same friends.
Joining us at Carlisle would be the absolute best way to do research, and you'd have a great time.
The wine cave story makes me think somebody liked how it looked more than how it drove. Very cool conversation piece and likely not the only cool car owned by this owner?
I agree that $30k is high for this particular one but $20k might be reasonable.
I'd think $18-18,5 would be close to right. Buy it for that, go through all the electrics, hydraulics and mechanicals, then Subaruify it for a really nice "resto-mod" of an actually old car.
It has been done.
But if the seller's not motivated, plenty of other fish in the sea—especially at your stated budget.
Good luck with your search, RayRay.
The car was kept in a wine cave? Very romantic, James Bond kind of story. I guess it could be true, but does that mean he kept his Boone's Farm in the garage?
Having a 2110 stroker with dual Dell 40's, I can't imagine being happy with much less of a power train, but lots of guys are perfectly happy with a 1915. To each his own. i couldn't recommend a anything in the 1600 range. I've driven several and they just don't deliver much "oomph", and I'm not one to push my car real hard.
A fresh built 1641 with the crank, rods & flywheel balanced as a unit, add mild ported heads, dual 34 carbs and decent exhaust makes for a decent pulling engine. It's not a rocket ship but it does run decent at highway speeds. That's the longblock I have built for my projects.
@Alan Merklin posted:A fresh built 1641 with the crank, rods & flywheel balanced as a unit, add mild ported heads, dual 34 carbs and decent exhaust makes for a decent pulling engine. It's not a rocket ship but it does run decent at highway speeds. That's the longblock I have built for my projects.
That's an awful lot of decent in there 
I suppose it has a lot to do with driving style and whether you use it primarily for cars 'n coffee and Sunday cruises. Hence, the 3000 miles on 10 year old builds.
My motorcycle has 200 more cc than that 1600 and weighs 1000 pounds less.
I had quite a few 1600cc then I tried an 1835cc and finally I bought a 2110cc which was good but the others, were unacceptable for me, I just don't have the patients to wait to get around someone or out of a tight spot. Even going up the mountain can be a challenge. A subie torque band is really awesome.
@WNGD posted:That's an awful lot of decent in there
I suppose it has a lot to do with driving style and whether you use it primarily for cars 'n coffee and Sunday cruises. Hence, the 3000 miles on 10 year old builds.
My motorcycle has 200 more cc than that 1600 and weighs 1000 pounds less.
yeah,that would never cut the mustard. I should have never told my classic car club about my horsepower; they always stickm with the fast car grouping when I participate in the road rallies. I do enjoy the fast, but sometimes you just want to see the scenery
IaM-Ray I agree, nothing lack the torque and power band of a 2.5L Suby although I am a little excited about getting a car with a nicely modified type1 also. I have never owned a 2110. I have had 2276 and larger I am thinking the 2110 might be a good size for the type 1.
I think it has shown his self to be bombproof and gives you about 140 to 145 horse
There’s just something about the 356 dashboard that is mesmerizing,
I like the old Karmannghia‘s as well with the metal – I even thought of putting a 356 Dash on a ghia
John Brown is my engine builder here in WV. John puts together the long block to my specs that produces respectable power.….. Attached is one of Pat's 1641's on the Dyno, it's surprising the kind of power (113hp) a smaller 1641 cc engine can make . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da02zG5b4Gk
That was an amazing pull.
I have zero details on the 1641 in that dyno video-- but I can tell you this: it had 48 IDAs, and what appeared to be a big merge header. It's not your run-of-the-mill 1641.
For what it's worth:
I'm none of these people, and schub along with my day to day life, trying to earn a living in a facemask and get 180 reliable horsepower from a 90 year old design.
Your mileage (and power) may vary.
What is more impressive about that number is that it is wheel horsepower, not engine horsepower. Almost all the big numbers you hear on engines are made on an engine dyno, which don’t acccount for the powertrain losses like a chassis dyno.
@LI-Rick posted:What is more impressive about that number is that it is wheel horsepower, not engine horsepower. Almost all the big numbers you hear on engines are made on an engine dyno, which don’t acccount for the powertrain losses like a chassis dyno.
I'll say. That little feller is amazing.
Don't want to be a party pooper but dyno's can be set to read higher numbers than actual to make the customers happy. They are still a great tool to see if tuning changes increase or decrease performance but it is a well kept secret that many dyno shops inflate the numbers instead of arguing with a customer that know's his engine puts out more than that. Just sayin.
In my experience Calif. engine dyno numbers are about 15% higher than reality.....Bruce
Agreed
First off, that was an awesome dyno pull. They clearly know what they are doing. Clean area and a clear process. Process is everything. In earlier days, I got certified on a SuperFlow CycleDyn. The real usefulness of a dyno is in crafting the shape of the curves and it's interesting to see how people's "butt dynos" reacts to documented changes. By smoothing the curves and increasing the area under the curves you usually get a much faster car, and if you've calibrated the transitions well you get great throttle response. That's something Stan alluded to elsewhere in our records and it's huge when it comes to the "butt dyno" readings.
There are several places that the operator can make the actual numbers higher or lower on purpose, and some are out if their control. First is the machine calibration. If the tuner recalibrated the dyno after the baseline run and before the finished tune run...he's playing with you. There are the expected driveline losses, and for a 4 wheel drive these can be considerable. Then there are the losses from tire to drum and these can be huge, too. You can change a dyno number by 5% or more going from under inflated to overinflated or simply from cold to hot tires. Then there's air temp and humidity. They have corrected hp/tq calculations to supposedly make up for that, but they really can't because denser air behaves differently. That won't be a big difference, but it's there nonetheless.
You can tune an engine with 150 wheel hp, really get it running right and it now makes maybe 155 hp. You give it the customer without any info and ask them what they think and they will swear it's gotta be making 175 now! Then you show them the before and after graphs and explain why it's faster. If they're smart, they are thrilled. If they only wanter to "hit a number" they won't be happy. Most tuners aren't good teachers and too many people fit the "hit a number" category. Most tuners just don't want to deal with people because they are less predictable than engines.
I think the air is thinner there... must be why they have the gaz pumps with vent catchers on the pump handles.
What I found interested about the dyno pull video is that it looked like they did the pull in 4 gear. I have always used 3 gear to get the best numbers on a VW beetle transaxle. They may have had a high numerical numbered Ring & pinion gear in the trans.. Anyone else pick up on the car being in 4th gear for the pull and thinking that is weird?
@Stan Galat posted:That was an amazing pull.
I have zero details on the 1641 in that dyno video-- but I can tell you this: it had 48 IDAs, and what appeared to be a big merge header. It's not your run-of-the-mill 1641.
For what it's worth:
- In 2016 Johannes Persson in Sweden made 254 hp with a 1776 Type 1 that looks like it cost more than the entire Apollo Space Program. Mr. Persson is working on an engine to break that record.
- Jeff Bezos is worth about $145 billion +/-, but things are going pretty well for Jeff during the recent troubles so it might be more by now.
- An (obviously) anonymous 3-man team took advantage of the quarantine to set a new Cannonball Run record recently: 26 hrs, 38 min. That's an average speed of just north of 105 mph for 2,825.3 miles.
- A few days ago, Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson deadlifted 1105 lbs in his home gym in Reykjavik, Iceland. It's clear he's not sitting on the couch binge watching Longmire on Netflix like (ahem) some people.
- Brittany Force ran a 3.623 at 331.61 in the quarter last September.
I'm none of these people, and schub along with my day to day life, trying to earn a living in a facemask and get 180 reliable horsepower from a 90 year old design.
Your mileage (and power) may vary.
Being a fan of strongman competitions and having watched Eddie "The Beast" Hall win many competitions and set the previous record I had to look it up. So I watched the video of Björnsson setting the new record and he is certainly impressive.
Reading the comments of the video I watched is what really educated me though. One fellow was arguing if Björnsson height was a disadvantage and a conversation commenced between a couple guys. This is where I got my new explanation for your physical characteristics. You've often stated your build is long arms, long torso, and short legs. This was aptly referred to as the "Ape Index". Your condition now has a name. When explaining this to people you can now say, "My Ape Index is..........". LOL
I resemble that remark and am not sure if I feel insulted..LOL
@Jimmy V. I was thinking the same when I heard him shift to 4th.
@JMM (Michael) I'd like to hear more about all that. A 5 percent change just from tire inflation?? Wow. How?
Has anyone run an engine dyno pull and then do a wheel HP pull on the same engine that same day just to calculate gear and axle (and wheel?) loss on a Bug or Speedster? Some say 15 percent, some say 25 percent drivetrain loss just in general but they're talking front engine/rear drive usually and I've often wondered if the VW or Porsche transaxles aren't more efficient just based on having less rotating mass than your average Tremec/12 bolt Chebby or Ford Toploader+9-inch.
@aircooled posted:In my experience Calif. engine dyno numbers are about 15% higher than reality.....Bruce
Orange
County
Correction
Factor
... or, 20%.
Ed, i don't know this for fact, but I've read a bunch of different places that the VW drivetrain absorbs 10-15%.
I wonder if that also holds true for the Rabbit and all other transverse FWD cars?
It would make sense that they consume even less. The torque never changes direction(90 degrees) like in a Bug.
I've seen some Spyder tests that have about a 160-170 or so hp engine and the tested 1/4 mile time calculated out to about 145 wheel hp.
@edsnova posted:...gear and axle (and wheel?) loss on a Bug or Speedster? Some say 15 percent, some say 25 percent drivetrain loss just in general but they're talking front engine/rear drive usually and I've often wondered if the VW or Porsche transaxles aren't more efficient just based on having less rotating mass than your average Tremec/12 bolt Chebby or Ford Toploader+9-inch.
@DannyP posted:Ed, i don't know this for fact, but I've read a bunch of different places that the VW drivetrain absorbs 10-15%.
I wonder if that also holds true for the Rabbit and all other transverse FWD cars?
It would make sense that they consume even less. The torque never changes direction(90 degrees) like in a Bug.
I've seen some Spyder tests that have about a 160-170 or so hp engine and the tested 1/4 mile time calculated out to about 145 wheel hp.
The figure I've heard is 12-15% depending on oil, how the trans is set up, and even tire pressure plays a factor.
