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Yes it could have been catastrophic but the builder told me nothing should have happened or broken by the short over rev situation. His opinion is the cam was bad to start and probably had a hair line crack in it. All in all it was fortunate but the cost of a new cam and cam gear and new lifters and the labor it is going to cost an easy Grand or more.  Part of the fun I guess. The up side is this engine will be better than ever and the heads are going to have special channeled copper gaskets to seal the high pressure that is developed in the combustion chambers. The cam will be a little more aggressive and the engine will be amazing. I have no doubt.

@Jimmy V. posted:

Yes it could have been catastrophic but the builder told me nothing should have happened or broken by the short over rev situation. His opinion is the cam was bad to start and probably had a hair line crack in it. All in all it was fortunate but the cost of a new cam and cam gear and new lifters and the labor it is going to cost an easy Grand or more.  Part of the fun I guess. The up side is this engine will be better than ever and the heads are going to have special channeled copper gaskets to seal the high pressure that is developed in the combustion chambers. The cam will be a little more aggressive and the engine will be amazing. I have no doubt.

I'm sure you've considered it but I'd go after the manufacturer for all or some of the labor costs associated with the poorly manufactured cam. I had to have a new axle installed on my trailer because the left rear wheel wore out completely after only 12K miles of towing. I got a new axle shipped to me and the axle manufacturer is covering 1.5 hours of labor to install it.

@Jimmy V. posted:

Yes it could have been catastrophic but the builder told me nothing should have happened or broken by the short over rev situation. His opinion is the cam was bad to start and probably had a hair line crack in it. All in all it was fortunate but the cost of a new cam and cam gear and new lifters and the labor it is going to cost an easy Grand or more.  Part of the fun I guess. The up side is this engine will be better than ever and the heads are going to have special channeled copper gaskets to seal the high pressure that is developed in the combustion chambers. The cam will be a little more aggressive and the engine will be amazing. I have no doubt.

What are the odds that Web will cough up some of the parts to make that happen, given that you, more than likely, got a defective cam?



Good thing they aren't interference heads or you would have had a box full of scrap metal to recycle. (He types, trying to remember when he last replaced his 958 timing belt.)

Last edited by dlearl476

Sorry about the ordeal Jimmy. Glad you are moving forward. My engine is in a different league than yours, but on my T1 2276, I'm using a Webcam 86B with a lobe separation angle of 105 degrees. Heads are ported 42/37.5 but with only 1.25 ratio rockers - I'm leaving power on the table (what was I thinking).

I'm happy with the WebCam specs and I did look at the 86A/86B because I was going to go with a T4 build at one point.

Sounds like you are moving forward!

The rule of one thing leads to another. Changing to a different cam that has a higher lift when replacing the cam that broke has led to a clearance issue with the connecting rod ends and the cam lobe due to the 82mm stroker crank. As the picture shows there is less than the min. of .062" of clearance needed. The builder is going to remove material from the end of each connecting rod and rebalance before reassembling the long block. Mo money mo money that is all it will take.

Type 4 2.8L new cam to crank clearance

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Have you considered a 78mm crank? And sell the 82mm?

That 78mm crank would give you 0.078" clearance with zero removed from the rods.

That cam really likes to REV, so the shorter stroke may help.

Your 2786 would become a 2650, still a BIG motor.  I know you'd have to rebalance the crank/pulley/flywheel and probably re-do the deck height, chamber size and CR.

Never mind...

Last edited by DannyP

Thanks for the suggestion but this isn't the best way to go if you really think about it. 1st the cost of a new crank less what I could sell my used crank would be approx. $300-400.00 once I even find a buyer for a used type IV 82mm crank. The cylinders would to be cut shorter or the connecting rods changed for longer ones or taller pistons bought. Making the stroke shorter the pistons would not travel as far out in the cylinder by 2mm dropping the compression to 8.1 CR. I would lose displacement and thus power and spend more doing it compared to having a small amount of material removed from the connecting rod edge and rebalancing them.

Last edited by Jimmy V.

I was starting to write this post and was typing the phrase " Monster Type 4 " and hit the shift key on my keyboard while typing the "4" and this is what I typed " Monster Type $" . How funny and right on the mark is that? This engine has been a fun journey that is still not complete. The engine had more power than any air cooled engine I ever had or drove and all 4 heads were leaking a small amount. When the engine builder gets finished with it having replaced the broken cam with a "hotter" one and installing .040" thick copper gasket rings in the cylinder heads (same amount being removed from the cylinder bottom seating ledges to keep the deck height the same and compression at 9.5:1) to fix the compression leak, the engine is going to be scary powerful. That said I am at torn by how hard the decision was and sad to say it looks like I won't be installing the engine back into the Puma. Carey is picking the Puma up on Dec. 8th to do a Suby conversion on it having it finished by spring 2021. I am shooting for heat and A/C as well in this conversion.  This has been my plan all along and I ran out of time before being able to play with the Monster Type $ engine. So I am going to either offer it for sale or hang on to it awhile to use in a future project. If I held off on sending the Puma to Carey now I would have to wait until next winter to have the conversion done if he would even have the time then. I am going with Carey's schedule and am grateful he has taken on the job. My plan is to have the body restored next winter giving me the summer to enjoy the Suby/Puma conversion.

I have to say air cooled is fun but once again I have proven to myself that the air cooled VW engine platforms have a hard time competing with the smooth power and dependability of the modern Suby engine. The cost to get there with an air cooled is more than steep and still leaves me wanting.  I have to remind myself the two engines aren't apples to apples in comparison. Both have their own attractions but the air cooled engines have far more detractions. They are 50-60 year old engine platforms, and design that cost a fortune to build up and eventually leak oil, and are at least 5 times more fragile than a modern Suby setup. I would even venture to say that a $20k plus air cooled Type 4 engine built by someone like Raby still cannot be fairly compared to the modern Suby engine.  I think Raby is even now almost exclusively building Suby engines, what does that tell you? I am not a purist that must have the correct style engine in a car. I am a hot rodder that loves to tinker and build something not seen everyday and I like to go fast doing it and I think many of us may be this way. I have had a blast with the two engines I have had in the Puma this summer and fall, it is now time for the third and final iteration of the 77 Puma GTE Hot rod.

The comments made above are of course from my opinion taken from my own experience and are not intended to hurt, judge or detract from what anyone else does or decides to do with their cars or what engines they like to run. Thanks for being on the ride with me. Stay tuned for more stupid decisions and unknown outcomes. You just never know with me. You may think me little crazy, but life is too short to be any other way, I think... Happy Thanksgiving I love you guys and appreciate the fellowship we have.

I am heading to the engine builder to pick up the Monster type 4 today. I also have made a hard decision to not have Carey and the gang convert the Puma to Suby power this winter. I am going to install the type 4 back in the Puma to first break the cam in and then have some fun finding out how much power the engine will make now that it is not leaking compression on all 4 cylinders (hopefully) and with the hotter cam that will let the heads breath as designed. I can have the suby converted next summer if I still want too. I couldn't stand not seeing the type 4 project through to the end. I will keep you posted.

type 4 2.8L new copper head gaskets

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@Jimmy V. posted:

I also have made a hard decision to not have Carey and the gang convert the Puma to Suby power this winter. I am going to install the type 4 back in the Puma to first break the cam in and then have some fun finding out how much power the engine will make now that it is not leaking compression on all 4 cylinders (hopefully) and with the hotter cam that will let the heads breath as designed.



I would have won the over/under

@Jimmy V. wrote- " I am going to install the type 4 back in the Puma to first break the cam in and then have some fun finding out how much power the engine will make now that it is not leaking compression on all 4 cylinders (hopefully) and with the hotter cam that will let the heads breath as designed.... I couldn't stand not seeing the type 4 project through to the end. I will keep you posted."

It's going to be a BEAST!

I used truck bed liner paint on my valve covers. It dries to a very hard durable finish that the spring clips won't rub off. I worked for a short time tonight installing the carbs. I will be setting up the new sync link throttle system next. The sync link guy sent me an entire new setup with some revisions specific to my engine and carbs. I plan to hear the engine run by the weekend. I think this thing is going to be a power house.

Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 8a 1Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 9 1Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 7 1

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Last edited by Jimmy V.

The special aluminum pcs that surround the engine are screwed to the aluminum tabs. This gives the engine compartment a nice tight seal to keep the hot air under the engine and the nice cool incoming air on the top side. See the pic below, the tabs are under the surround pcs. where you see the screws. It is a very well made setup. The type 4 sells the surrounding pcs to fit regular type 1 compartments and a special set just for the Speedster replica's.

Type 4 2.8 L monster ready to install 2

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I spent a few hours tonight fitting the surrounding engine compartment sealing tin pcs. to the DTM shroud. It was quite tedious because the mounting tabs on the shroud were all attached in the wrong location being too high. I had to drill out all of the attaching rivets and locate the tabs to the correct locations. All in a the fun of it. Slowly getting closer to installing the engine in the puma, maybe Saturday.

Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 9b1Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 9c1Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 9d1Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 9e1

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The monster type 4 is back home in the Puma and needs to have the wiring routed and hooked up, the header and muffler installed and the revised and hopefully better non sticking sync link throttle cable system completed. Next comes cam break in runs then the mounting and plumbing of the external Derale oil cooler/fan.  I have a bunch of work left to do before the Type 4 makes the Puma go. I was thinking this morning about were this all started, it started with seeing a fellow SOC member's listing for a 2056 RAT type 4 engine which I bought for $1500.00 (almost the original cost of the header it came with). This is a case of a $1500.00 good deal costing me another $9k before it is all said and done. Anyone ever have this happen? Oh well it will be all worth it when this engine lives up to it's full potential. You know that "Ahh yes" feeling of this thing is dialed in now. Soon I hope. My worry at this stage is the 100 possible little things that can go wrong on a custom job like this that can be quickly revealed upon first start. Cross your fingers friends.

Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 9f1

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It seems to always be the case in my endeavours as well.  You start with an upgrade and you screw it up and have to replace this or that.  I looked at getting a Puma recently, then I started running the numbers in my head and the owner of course had a dream price that he was wanting and reality wasn't settling in but as the calculations kept going up and up I just passed on it, because I knew I was only scratching the surface.  Just saying.

@Jimmy V. posted:

... I was thinking this morning about were this all started, it started with seeing a fellow SOC member's listing for a 2056 RAT type 4 engine which I bought for $1500.00 (almost the original cost of the header it came with). This is a case of a $1500.00 good deal costing me another $9k before it is all said and done. Anyone ever have this happen?

@Stan Galat posted:

Every time I do something to the car.

Every single time.

I laughed out loud- so much truth in that, guys!

Hooray!! The engine fired right up and nothing broke or leaked. Once running I quickly locked it in at 2000 RPM for the first 20 minutes of it's new life to break the cam in. Not one single hiccup or issues of any kind. No oil or compression leaks. Pre-start leak down test has all 4 cylinders at less than 2% cold leak down which is good for an engine of this type that isn't using total seal rings. Now that the cam is broken in and everything else looks good I will work on mounting and plumbing the oil cooler. I think the A-1 muffler is actually too quiet for my taste but it makes it easy to hear any engine noises that could indicate trouble. The builder has the valve lash set at .005" which I will eventually reset to the near zero lash that the chrome moly push rods will allow. This will make the valve train noise nearly non existent. Now I can't wait to drive this bad boy. More work before that happens.

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@TRP posted:

The rain is my fault. It rained when I bought my Speedster in 2014... and it rained when I sold it on Friday / bought its replacement the same day.

My bad...

I started calling my Spyder "the rainmaker" the first two years I had it out here. It seems every time I drove it, clouds would appear from nowhere and at least sprinkle on me before I made it home. I've only been caught in one "seek covered shelter" downpour, though.

Congrats on the initial fire up, Jimmy. Looking forward to a road test.

Last edited by dlearl476

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@dlearl476 posted:

...I started calling my Spyder "the rainmaker" the first two years I had it out here. It seems every time I drove it, clouds would appear from nowhere and at least sprinkle on me before I made it home...



The thing is, weather gods have a very low tolerance for hubris.

They don't ask much - only that we acknowledge their presence and standing. If they threaten with clouds or overcast, do the right thing and show them some respect. At the very least, throw an umbrella in the car.

Most of us with Speedsters recognize this and equip our cars with so-called ' tops' - not because they do any good keeping rain out, but as a nod to our place in the hierarchy.

I just don't understand the cavalier Spyder owner who blithely drives about - even far from home - without any semblance of weather countermeasures. The deities will suffer occasional oversight, but not habitual transgressions. If you drive a topless Spyder for years, thinking you can outwit the higher powers of the universe, you are the architect of your own demise:



.

@Sacto Mitch,

As you know (given your keen powers of observation), the human male is a peculiar specimen. He is born like Jacob, prone to wrestling with God himself.

He mythologizes the soldier of the lost cause, the lone man rising in opposition to unstoppable forces, the man shaking his fist at God. He imagines this heroic.

It is the instinct of the downtrodden. Fans of Cleveland sports have it in their bones.

It is woven into the psyche of entire nations: of Serbia and Poland and Ireland-- the idea that the mere act of standing erect in the face of crushing opposition is victory in and of itself. Actual (as opposed to psychological) victory is not really hoped for-- indeed, defeat is so woven into the fabric of folklore that should the lone warrior somehow find himself to be the last man standing in a field of smoke and rubble, there would be no plan regarding what to actually do. To fight and lose is the stuff of valor. Victory is unimagined and unplanned for.

Spyder guys are a lot like that.

Last edited by Stan Galat

I decided the best place to mount the oil cooler is the bottom of the Frunk. The nose on the Puma is long and this is what makes up a fairly large trunk area. I cut 5 holes under the cooler which can't be seen unless the car is in the air or you are laying on the ground. The air will enter through the holes in the trunk bottom and back out through a 6" diameter hole in the back wall the the trunk directly behind the cooler. I plan to plumb and wire the cooler tonight. I also balanced the carbs last night and I was happy with a 900rpm idle and the ruppety rump of the new hot cam. .500" lift 300 deg. duration on the intake and 507" lift 310 duration exhaust with a 106 deg lobe separation. If all goes well I will be test driving the beast this weekend.

Type 4 Puma oil cooler mounting 1Type 4 Puma oil cooler mounting 2

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Thank you for the input but I think the hole size and number should be plenty to let in enough cool fresh air. The cooler has 1.5" of clearance from the bottom of the trunk floor and each hole is 3" diameter making a total of 35 squares inches of area to let in cool air. The trunk already had plenty of areas letting in fresh air so I almost thought about trying it without any added holes, so I am fairly confident that the holes will be plenty enough. Regardless, if the size of the holes aren't enough once the hot months arrive I have the ability to add more holes but I would bet what I have will be plenty, however I have been wrong before.

I took the Puma for the first drive today. I needed fuel so I drove it to the gas station and back about a 5 mile round trip. The oil temp needle barely moved and the oil cooler bypass loop was only warm to the touch and this is without an oil cooler hooked up. It is 24 degrees out so that has something to do with it. The car really has power now, I didn't really get on it but it still felt much stronger than the pre-repair engine had on tap. 

I took the night off working on the Type 4 Puma and plan on hitting it hard tomorrow night to finish up the oil cooler install. Then I can drive the wheels off of this thing.

I was wondering why a heater core with blower fan can't be used as an oil cooler so the engine oil heat could be used to heat the interior of the car? Makes sense to me. I would love to hear the gangs knowledge on this one.

Jimmy....I didn't know those holes were 3" !  That's good ! I sorta knew you would have thought about that.   Your whole project is really interesting to me. I've never worked on a type 4 so I'm paying attention.

I've always thought that VW missed an opportunity to produce a great new motor when they came out with the type 4. I think it was a mediocre improvement on a Type 1 and 3 and could have been better. My comparison is the Suby EJ 25

However, you certainly have demonstrated that a Type 4 can be a monster motor !!

I Salute you.............Bruce

Robert M......You mentioned Manometer !   I had mine out and was using it at a local Dive Shop to check the calibration of their "Magnehelic Vacuum Gauge" used to test and check the cracking resistance of inhalation effort of a second stage on SCUBA regulators. Later this week I will switch it from Water over to Mercury to check a couple of their pressure gauges.  Kind of fun..................Bruce

@Jimmy V. posted:

I took the night off working on the Type 4 Puma and plan on hitting it hard tomorrow night to finish up the oil cooler install. Then I can drive the wheels off of this thing.

I was wondering why a heater core with blower fan can't be used as an oil cooler so the engine oil heat could be used to heat the interior of the car? Makes sense to me. I would love to hear the gangs knowledge on this one.

Seems like it would work great although it might not be the best plan in the summer.  

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@Jimmy V. posted:


...I was wondering why a heater core with blower fan can't be used as an oil cooler so the engine oil heat could be used to heat the interior of the car? ...

Two problems come to mind.

First, in cold weather (when you most want heat), the oil in these engines takes quite a while to come up to temperature (and thus, produce any usable cabin heat). The problem is only worse (in terms of cabin heat) if you use a Mocal sandwich to help the engine warm up quicker (no cabin heat at all until the sandwich thermostat opens).

The heater boxes usually used for heat in an air-cooled engine of course use heat from the exhaust system, which is available pretty much from start-up.

And two, in the summer, when you don't want cabin heat, you're pretty much stuck with it if you want to cool the oil.

The second problem might be solvable if you could find a way to dump the cabin heat before it reaches the cabin, but you'd have to keep air flowing around the cooler if it's going to cool the oil.

.

Everybody thinks that but, yes, they are safe.  I have an Eberspacher BN2.  It puts out up to 18,000 BTU which is more than enough to make a 356/550 toasty.  It offered one heat output level and they typically go for upwards of $100 on eBay but you must know a bit about them to know what you're getting.  Parts are available, some from Pavel in Poland and others from Asia but the original fuel delivery system has become Unobtanium.  Fortunately, I have a modern solution to that which works excellently with new parts readily available (new fuel pump and associated controllers).  I have not seen BN2s that run on Diesel.

Danny has a more modern Webasto(?) gas heater with variable heat output and some nice bells and whistles.  It is physically slightly smaller than my BN2, and puts out about the same amount of heat.  Typically, they're used to heat tractor trailer sleeper cabs so heating a 356 is easy.  They run on gasoline or diesel.  I think the real (not Asian knock-off) versions go for around $1,200 complete.

I tucked mine down in the nose area next to the battery.  It pulls fresh air in from just ahead of the wheel well:

final install

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Last edited by Gordon Nichols
@Jimmy V. posted:

That makes sense. I may look into a gas heater sometime in the future. The frunk has a ton of space so that won't be an issue. I assume they have made the heaters safe since it will be burning gas and strapped to a 12 gallon gas tank. Seems counterintuitive to me.

They were originally mounted right next to the fuel tanks in VWs. They are very safe, IF they are properly maintained, as in cleaned and in good running order. All wiring and hoses must be in good shape of course. The mechanical safeties are adequate, and there is a fuse that pops if too much current is being drawn. The flame is inside a double-walled stainless steel firebox, and then there is the thick outer casing around that. If you ever take one apart, they're quite elegant. And safe.

Gordon, the heaters are almost 8000 Btu, not 18,000, the heater says 2000 kcal/h right on it. Do the conversion.

I think my modern Webasto Airtop2000 was around 700-750 with shipping from the Czech Republic. It has all electronic controls and works perfectly every time I turn it on. It won't turn on unless it's below 60F out though.

It's been a long time coming but I am grinning ear to ear tonight!. I finished up plumbing the oil cooler and wiring the fan and thermostat switch. I filled the oil cooler and lines It took over 3 quarts to fill the Derale oil cooler and the 30' of 1/2" ID oil line that it took to plumb the cooler. I fired the engine up and let it warm up while looking for possible leaks and also checking the oil level as the cooler started to get oil flow. I left off the Setrab oil thermostat for now. It will be installed tomorrow now that I know the cooler and lines are full and flowing oil. I took the Puma for a 30 minute ride and the oil temp never reached 180 to turn the fan on but it did a great job keeping the oil cool without the fan. The real reason for the big smile. I wanted to see what this thing could do. I did a mild clutch drop from stand still and then rolled into the throttle, man oh man this freaking thing has power. The tires where spinning as the car is moving forward up the road sideways, as I went to 2nd gear the car straightened out as I lifted to shift but tires started spinning the second the throttle was opened up again, on  into 3rd gear tires still spinning and car kicking sideways, no sign that the tires were going to grab before redline was hit so I let up and let out a OOOHH Hell YESSS!!!!!. Finally the pay off for all the hard work, money and waiting. This engine is a true Monster and one scary ride. The engine feels like it has more that double maybe triple what it had before the compression leak was fixed and the the cam change. I think this cam is the perfect choice for this set up. Man it is nice when it finally comes together. I can safely say this is the most powerful air cooled engine I have ever driven. What a blast this thing is going to be to drive. I wish I had someone to film the 100 yard burn out I just did LoL.. I may need stickier tires.

PS. This is the oil cooler I have, it is the one the guys at CB Performance recommended for my build and promised it would be enough. They also recommended the Weber carb update kit that really makes the 44 IDF's into something much more. The secondary venturi is removed for a spray bar and the choke is enlarged to a 38mm. They told me the kit was designed for big displacement engines just like my build.

Derale Oil coolerWeber update kit

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Last edited by Jimmy V.
@Jimmy V. posted:


The car really has power now, I didn't really get on it but it still felt much stronger than the pre-repair engine had on tap.

@Stan Galat posted:

2.8 L and a big cam will do that. Holy-freaking-cow, what a mill.



Yeah, displacement is everything.  Glad it's running so well, Jimmy.  An engine that size doesn't need a torque monster cam- it makes enough power down low to break most VW transaxles on it's own. What size tubing was the header built with?

The header has 1.75" tubing and it doesn't help much to go larger because the exhaust ports can't be made very large. That is one reason the split duration and lift cam that I used is a popular choice for big Type 4 builds.

Type 4 2.8 L monster ready to install

Web Cam Type 4 Camshaft, 86B/86C Grind, 00-662 is designed for Type 4 engines, and it's specs are (In/Ex) .500/.507" Valve Lift with stock 1.3:1 Rockers, 300/310 degrees of advertised duration, and 260/272 degrees of duration at .050". This is an outstanding Type 4 camshaft, longer exhaust duration to aid with the pitiful Type 4 exhaust port! This has a fantastic midrange and top end, and is one of Web Cams best Type 4 grinds for big engines, with a powerband from 3500 to 7000 RPMs, the more headwork and carburetion the better the top end will be.

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Last edited by Jimmy V.

Looking forward to your updates! I have the first portion of your split grind cam (86b) in a Type 1 2276 running 44 Webers and only 1.25 rockers but with a narrow LSA of 105 degrees and it is perfect for the street in my Vintage Speedster. I can drive around town in third gear (not that I wanted to even though I could). What are you running for LSA? What is the curb weight of your Puma? That is way way too too much power

The LSA of my cam is 106 which I feel is perfect. Webcam made it up special and suggested the LSA based on my engines build specs and weight of car which is approx. 1850lbs.The factory specs. for this model say it weighs 1720lbs. the type 4 adds some additional weight bringing it up to 1850lbs, add me it the car and we arrive at a total weight of 2080lbs. I plan to take the car to the to the local farm Co-op scales soon to see what the actual weight is. At the 2080lb. weight and if I have 240hp at the crank the est. quarter mile time is 12.8 seconds. which isn't too shabby. I think it may be faster than that.. we will have to see.

Last edited by Jimmy V.

Jim:  I had that same horizontal discharge tube setup on my 40 Dells and yes, it probably adds another 20-30 HP on a 2,110.  Maybe a tad more on your engine.  IIRC, my kit came with a set of 34mm venturiis (chokes) which were downgraded to 32s by Dave at Blackline Racing for me - he also converted them back to stock discharge tubes.  I had a slight, nagging bog as I transitioned to more throttle in the mid-range and managed to make it a bit better by doing all the wrong things (never suspecting the venturiis were wrong).  Going down one size to the 32 was a vast improvement, so remember that if you have mid-range hesitation and can't easily cure it.  Apart from that, they really produce power, especially on the mains.  If I were tracking my car I would still have those discharge tubes in there.

I also have that same DeRale cooler on my 2,110 and it has been great.  Not the most compact, but it is rugged, reasonably quiet when running the fan and holds me to 200-205F no matter what.

Glad you got that beast running and how well it's turned out.  Lotta work but the endgame payoff is really something!

Sounds like the perfect LSA. As pointed out earlier, you have enough displacement already for all the low end power you will ever need. Hell, you are going to need bigger and more sticky tires now. When I got my '69 912 new suspension I had it corner balanced and with me in the car the total weight was 2237 lbs. I got a motor from a dune buggy reworked for the street the T1 2276 with the webcam 86b and was going to use the T1 as temp motor for the 912 while I decided what to do with the original 912 engine. But in hind site, I should have went T4. That T1 motor ended up in my garage and my wife kept tripping over it trying to get to things - even though the motor was on the side of the garaged and tucked away. So I found a home for the T1 by buying a Speedster. Long story short, I should have built a T4 like yours from the start for my 912 Renegade build. John Willhoit offers a 912 2.2 build and the kit alone starts at $16K. But we aren't talking Porsche, sorry I digress. If I didn't already commit to a full rebuild of my 912 616 motor, I would have been a player for your engine.

I remembered after I posted that Pat Downs told me that he and CB had later upgraded the Dell 40 version of that carb kit to overcome the hesitation (apparently, I wasn't the only one).  Sorry if I mislead.  As it turned out, Blackline did a great job setting up my Dells and I wasn't about to mess with them any more.  I'm happy with them right now (even though I won't be playing with the car for another 3-1/2 months). It's Sleepy-Bye time for replicas in New England, now.  

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

Jim:  I had that same horizontal discharge tube setup on my 40 Dells and yes, it probably adds another 20-30 HP on a 2,110.  Maybe a tad more on your engine.  IIRC, my kit came with a set of 34mm venturiis (chokes) which were downgraded to 32s by Dave at Blackline Racing for me - he also converted them back to stock discharge tubes.  I had a slight, nagging bog as I transitioned to more throttle in the mid-range and managed to make it a bit better by doing all the wrong things (never suspecting the venturiis were wrong).  Going down one size to the 32 was a vast improvement, so remember that if you have mid-range hesitation and can't easily cure it.  Apart from that, they really produce power, especially on the mains.  If I were tracking my car I would still have those discharge tubes in there.

I also have that same DeRale cooler on my 2,110 and it has been great.  Not the most compact, but it is rugged, reasonably quiet when running the fan and holds me to 200-205F no matter what.

Glad you got that beast running and how well it's turned out.  Lotta work but the endgame payoff is really something!

I saw that on the CB website before the last time I talked to Dave. He told me no, that it was made for monster engines like Jimmy's. Going to 32's and a smaller main jet worked perfect on my ~2L motor, just like Dave said it would.

Best of all, I think I'm getting ~25-28 mpg now.

Last edited by dlearl476
@ZFNHSN posted:

Looking forward to your updates! I have the first portion of your split grind cam (86b) in a Type 1 2276 running 44 Webers and only 1.25 rockers but with a narrow LSA of 105 degrees and it is perfect for the street in my Vintage Speedster. I can drive around town in third gear (not that I wanted to even though I could). What are you running for LSA? What is the curb weight of your Puma? That is way way too too much power

Said no man ever. Lol

When I ordered the update kit for my 44 Weber's CB asked me the application the carbs would were being used on. I told them they are on a 2.8L type 4 engine with a big cam 9.5:1 CR and 48/38 ported heads. They told me that is exactly what the update kit was created for. To give great air flow and still allow the drivability of 44 weber IDF carbs. Normally the engine would be best with 48 Weber IDf or IDA's if racing only but would be a dog for city and everyday driving. The updated carbs are drivable and also breath every as big as the carb body allows. The 38mm sleeve is paper thin and the removal of the secondary venturi really opens the carbs up. Major flow. A s I said they are running and driving great.  I can see why they would not be for all engines. The kit comes with fairly big main jets (.165) which seem to be spot on for my engine. The plug electrodes are light brown in color. The kits had been out of stock for a long time and CB were telling people they had no idea of when they would have them available again. The week my motor was being finished the kits came back in stock. Good break for me. I would love to run tests with and without the carbs modified to see the actual gain in HP the kit gives. The pic below is just a little engine art. I took this pic today. It never gets old.

Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 9j1

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  • Type 4  2.8 L  monster engine after repair 9j1
Last edited by Jimmy V.

I managed to get mine to run "OK" using 162.5 Mains.  Those were awesome on a pair of Dell 40's with 34mm venturiis.  Get up on the mains and it really rocked and still got better than 26mpg, but it had a hesitation below 70mph so I just tended to cruise on interstates at 80+.  Worked for me.

Dave deleted the horizontal tubes, dropped the venturiis to 32s, ran the idles down from 65's to 45's and the mains from 162.5 to 130's.  It doesn't have the same "snap" when you stomp on it at 75mph, but it doesn't hesitate below 60mph any more, either, and I'm happy with them.

@Jimmy V. posted:

I took the night off working on the Type 4 Puma and plan on hitting it hard tomorrow night to finish up the oil cooler install. Then I can drive the wheels off of this thing.

I was wondering why a heater core with blower fan can't be used as an oil cooler so the engine oil heat could be used to heat the interior of the car? Makes sense to me. I would love to hear the gangs knowledge on this one.

My engine oil rarely gets hot enough to open the thermostatic valve for my oil cooler in summer, and never in spring or fall. You want the oil hot enough to circulate and lubricate properly. Too cold, it's too thick, too hot it breaks down.

I preface what i am about to say with I am in this thing to the end and it will be right and the way it should be without compromise when finished. That said last week I started noticing the signs of head to cylinder leak,,,again!!. So I whistled and out came the engine... again. Seriously it does come out in less than an hour now and the engine was stripped to a long block in another 40 minutes. I did a leak down test of each cylinder with a  100psi Moroso tester while squirting soapy water at the cylinder to head sealing area. I saw what I expecting.. plenty of big bubbles. I also could feel a large amount of air leaking from the intake valves even after popping the valve with a plastic mallet to clear any carbon an such that might have been between the valve and the valve seat. Still the valves were leaking. Between the cylinder to head leak the valve leaking and anything getting past the rings each cylinder had 18-25% leak down which is terrible of course. My goal on engines I have personally built is 2-3% max leakage on a new high performance engine.  I called AA performance the builder of the heads. (Hoffman heads and Type 4 store heads (which are made by Hoffman) were all back logged until late spring ) that is why I tried the AA heads. My engine builder and myself are baffled. He checked and double checked the heads but all the problems seem to be in the heads. Jonathan at AA was very nice when I told him of our situation and asked me to send the heads back which they should arrive on Tuesday. The short block is headed back to the builder to re-check the flatness of the cylinder seating deck just to cover all our bases. I am going to keep smiling and seeing this through to the end which when I arrive there will be a gratifying experience. I firmly believe the payoff will be just short of amazing in the amount of power I am now sure this engine is capable of. Patience is the key it appears.

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That was done at the time the heads were received by my engine builder. The weird thing is if you fill the combustion chamber with alcohol the valves do not leak a drop. I am worried that the valve seats are leaking under pressure. I am baffled by the valves leaking and the cylinder to head loint leaking when everything is square, flat and parallel. I may wind up buying a set of LE200 heads and waiting until March to get them. 

I was hesitant about posting about the ongoing problems but then thought what the heck this is real and I am going to have this engine right in the end. I realized this is a good record  going forward if I ever sell the car or engine. There will be a transparent accounting of how the engine was built and what issues occurred and how said issues were addressed and overcome. Thanks to all for the positive encouragement and support.

The heads are to be delivered to AA today. I am eager to hear what they say about the heads. I am amazed at how fast the heads  arrived at AA in Covina, Ca. coming from Louisville Ky. They heads shipped last Tuesday via Fedex Ground.

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