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I decided it best to start a new thread to post the progress of the big type 4 engine I am having built. To recap I bought a used turnkey Raby parts kit 2056 type 4 engine from a fellow SOC member and Speedster owner Chris Sutton. I have given the engine to my engine builder Bill Westerfeld, a long time Porsche, VW engine builder in the Cincinnati, Oh. area. He has been in the go fast business for over 40 years. I have had several engines built by him and have only praise for his big talent and attention to detail he gives each and every engine he builds. Bill, has his own machine shop and can do just about anything including head work from mild to wild . That said I picked up Chris's engine because it was too good a deal to pass up and a no brainer. If I was looking to just make a profit I could doubled my investment by parting the engine out, instead I have decided to build a larger displacement type 4 and then install it in my recently bought Puma. The engine builder ordered the parts today, 104mm P&C's, 82mm Counter weighted forged crank shaft, H beam connecting rods, Webcam 86a cam with 1" circle to allow crank clearance (The cam specs are .435" lobe lift (.565" lift with with the 1.3 ratio rockers) .290 duration) along with all the other items needed to build an engine with all new parts. The displacement will be 2786cc and the HP/TQ target is 240HP/235 TQ. This will be more clearly known once I decide on the amount of head work I want to have done. That said, does anyone know anything about the AA or AMC stage 2 914 heads offered by AA? I can't find any feedback online concerning the quality of the heads which appear to be nice for the money. The Raby modified 1.8L heads that came with the motor are very nice also and I will have a bunch of porting work done if I go with them. I will have the valve sizes increased from 42/36 to 48/38 as well. If you are new to the Chris Sutton Type 4 engine for sale story I have attached a pic of the engine after it was completed by Chris many years ago to give an idea of what the DTM fan setup looks like. It converts the type 4 engine to an upright fan and allows it to by mounted to a type 1 transaxle.  I will be posting more as the engine progresses. 

Type 4 engine

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Stan Galat

 Thanks Stan you sent me to the right place! I may consider ordering a pair of LE200 heads. According to Len Hoffman of Hoffman Automotive they are the most up to date highest performing type 4 head available with ceramic coated valve chambers and Thermobaric coated exteriors, with the highest flow and highest port velocity. They are made by HAM using AA head castings from China. According to his site the Chinese castings have improved since their launch. Hoffman Automotive stopped taking any used type 4 and 914 heads in to rebuild or repair in 2017 because they weren't getting any in that were in goo enough shape to repair. From 2017 forward they have only sold new heads built from first AMC castings (their quality declined) and now AA castings FYI. I love this forum, what a treasure of info and great people.

Ok, my engine builder now has all the parts in to build my 2786 Type 4 engine. He has started on the heads, taking them apart and checking everything. He is giving all the valves a competition 3 angle grind and cleaning up and cc'ing the combustion chambers and lastly cutting the heads open to fit the cylinders for the 104mm pistons. He will then install the old bearings on the new 82mm crank and rod assembly and mock it up in the engine block so he can rotate it to find the places that will need to be ground away to make clearance. The new crank, rods pistons,& flywheel will be sent out to be balanced together as a unit. Ask Alan how much this makes a difference in how an engine runs. The 2276 Type 1 that I just sold was balanced like this and it would zip up to 6k no problem and sound great doing it. I haven't trusted many type 1 engines to do this. I estimate that the engine will be finished by the 2nd week in Sept.. I have Rancho building me a Pro Suby transaxle just like the one in my Subaru powered Speedster. Why? the trans in the Puma needs work and it is a stock geared 4.12 R&P unit and I know and like the gear ratio of the Pro Suby unit built in a Rhino case and it will work well with the Type 4 for the time I run it and the Puma will be ready for this winter when Carey converts it to a 2.5L suby engine with heat and A/C. The monster type 4 will be placed on the market for sale. More to come soon.

monster type 4 build 1

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Monster tyoe 4 build cutting heads

My engine builder sent me some more pics and a video today. The cylinders will need to be cut down to get the correct deck height to make 9.5:1 CR. He has mocked up the crank, cam and connecting rods in the engine block to find out the areas that need to clearance ground. This has been completed, now the crank, pistons rods, flywheel and clutch assembly are all being sent out to be balanced at a shop that builds top fuel drag engines. This shop will also be cutting the cylinders down to the size we need. I am looking at 3-4 weeks before the engine is finished. I can't wait to hear the engine fire up. 

monster type 4 build 6monster type 4 build 5

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Monster type 4 build cutting block

 David at Rancho just called and they are shipping the Pro Suby Rhino cased transaxle they just finished building for me. It is a twin of the trans in my Speedster. It will work well with the torquey type 4 or a Suby engine if and when I go that route. I love the one I have in my Speedster so ordered one to replace the squealing transaxle currently in the Puma.  I should have the engine and Trans ready to go in before the months end.

speedster conversion 97 Rancho Pro-Suby Transaxlespeedster conversion 79.png bad transaxle

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Hi Jimmy!

Yes he is.  Link to the thread in this post.  Short answer Suby 2.5, Z-head with porting, aftermarket FI (stinger), Rancho Pro-Suby w/Peloquin torsen diff, AirKewld Wilwood 4 pot discs (so I can easily change to 5X130...also not T-bone anything!). Lot's of other stuff (AC, heat defrost) too numerous to list.

I spent a lot of time researching before I designed and then pulled the trigger.  Listened to you, Stan, Danny, Alan, Art, Bob, Paul, Troy, Theon....everybody I guess.  I had been explaining choices in my last few posts there.  I'll continue that soon.  Been hellishly busy for a few months. 

Here's the link: https://www.speedsterowners.co...a-coupe-build-thread

Michael

The snowball keeps on a rolling. Instead of using the heads that we had with 42/36 valves and stock ports, My engine builder has ordered a set of hot cylinder heads with 48 intake and 38 exhaust, dual valve springs and stage 2 porting with welded up and match ported intake manifolds. The heads will now be more inline with the large displacement of the engine. Now I am thinking of going with 48 IDF carbs instead of the 44's I have. This thing has truly turned into a monster, mores ways than one.

type 4 ported headsFrankenstein gewtting electrified

 

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I am running what I think is a relatively mild cam but the engine builder tells me it is what I want. It is a Webcam 86A  it has 290 advertised duration and .435 valve lift with 1.1 ratio rockers( is 1.1 what bus type IV heads have?) the rockers in my heads are 914 type which are 1.3 ratio so that calculates to .514 valve lift    ( .435 divided by 1.1 =  a .395 lift at the cam multiplied by 1.3 = .514 valve lift.) 

@Jimmy V. posted:

I am running what I think is a relatively mild cam but the engine builder tells me it is what I want. It is a Webcam 86A  it has 290 advertised duration and .435 valve lift with 1.1 ratio rockers( is 1.1 what bus type IV heads have?) the rockers in my heads are 914 type which are 1.3 ratio so that calculates to .514 valve lift    ( .435 divided by 1.1 =  a .395 lift at the cam multiplied by 1.3 = .514 valve lift.) 

Thanks, Jimmy. That is a very mild cam for those heads, but it should be a torque monster with all that displacement. I'll be very curious how you like it.

Aircooled says this cam is .435 lift with 1.3 rockers. I think that is mild, as is the 252 degrees duration at .05. It also says the powerband goes to 6000 rpm, which ... how? 

By way of comparison, the Engle W125 in my little 1914 has an advertised lift of .460 with 1.1 rockers and 262 degrees duration at .05 lift. The dyno charts on these engines, as built by Raby with 8.5-1 compression, dual springs & Weber 44s, show peak torque (circa 125 ft-lbs) at 4000 and peak HP (122-ish) at 5500. Raby revved them to 6k on the stand, losing 2-3 hp off peak, before shutting down.

Judging by chatter on the forums, lots of Type 4 players love the Webcam 86A, and I would not challenge the judgment of a real, experienced engine builder, but I am curious to learn how such a small cam would be deemed optimal for such a large engine, as built for such a light vehicle as the Puma. 

 

 

I also love my 86b in my type1. Along with the 1.5 rockers(cam designed for 1.4 or 1.5). I've got .575" lift at the valve, which is on the edge of maximum.

Conventional wisdom on a LARGE type4 such as Jimmy's is to cam them up, as they already have major torque built-in.

But at the end of the day, Len Hoffman knows far more than any of us armchair engine designers. I'll bet the motor will be great, as the man who built the heads is the man who knows the best cam for them.

We shall see. I have been assured the 86A is plenty cam with the 290 duration. I want an engine that makes plenty of power and torque in the 1500-5500 range not in the 3500-7500 range. The lower valve lift will make the stress on the valvetrain less. I will have plenty of valve size and cam duration to compensate for the lower lift. The combustion chambers will still fill plenty fast. If I don't like the way it runs with the 48/38 ported heads I will go back to the RAT 42/36 heads and use the big heads on a different build or sell them. My engine builder is the one who is saying the 86a is the cam to give me the end result I have asked for not Len Hoffman.

 The bottom end of the engine is together and waiting for the heads to be built. Once the heads arrive the cylinder bottoms will be cut down to give the desired deck height giving 9.5:1 CR. Now to be patient and wait...

monster type 4 build 7

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@Jimmy V.

I'm a little lost. You were on TheSamba yesterday asking about AA Stage 2 48x38 heads. I went to AA's site and saw a picture of the heads you put up a few posts above.

Are you getting AA heads, or Hoffman Automotive Engineering heads? Either way, I'm following this build closely, as the T1 engine you just sold was a masterwork and a screaming value. The cam choice is super-interesting, and I'm waiting anxiously to hear your thoughts about how it runs in your Puma.

Keep posting-- I love this stuff.,

Yeah, Ed - 20 years from day zero and running better than ever!

Well, it’s 8.3:1 C/R, but not quibbling. 
That was because I was asked if I might run 87 octane gas in it.  It runs fine with a tank of 87 but I usually run 89 or higher.  

But you’re right, Stan - Just hop in and drive it for 20 years with only minor issues.  

I'll never forget your saga of the broken rocker adjuster on your son's wedding day!

Stan:  I was wanting to know if anyone has tried the AA heads because according to the Hoffman website their head castings come from AA Performance because the AMC heads starting having quality issues.( I just pulled a pic off of a search of images of type 4 heads that had porting work.) I was curious how the finished heads from AA ran in case we have to wait too long from Hoffman. What I got from Samba was a bunch of advice and criticism I didn't ask for or want and not anyone that answered my simple question. I made myself stop replying and haven't been back. I forget how good we have it here on SOC even with our small issues, it is still much better then most car based forums. 

Dan wrote: "I'll never forget your saga of the broken rocker adjuster on your son's wedding day!"

Yeah, that was epic.  How many times do you hear about a rocker arm shaft breaking on a VW T-1?  In someone's wedding get-away car?  Like almost never, but there you go.  Occasional rocker arm, yes, but the shaft?  Never.

At least it made it through the off-site photo session before it completely died.  His best friend (who now lives in Sandy Eggo and drives some sort of Porsche dual-turbo thing) came back to the hotel after it died with the news and that he was having AAA transport it to the best Man's house, but the main uses for the car were over and as we all know, it's a mechanical thing and mechanical things can be fixed.  Fortunately, all of the guys in the wedding party are car guys.

That little drama didn't dampen his car-loving spirit, though.  He's still hopelessly in love with cars.  And his wife!  She has realized (probably early on) that he's just like his nutty father.......    

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

I was excited to received after 6 weeks of waiting a new Rancho rhino case Pro Suby transaxle. After unwrapping the plastic I was disappointed to find they built it with the wrong length axles. I ordered a trans with long axles and they sent short. Upon contacting Rancho they said the would have it picked up and switched to long axles. The trucking company is going to make out on this $700.00 round trip from Indiana to California and and back. I am glad my engine isn't ready or I would be a little more upset. It gives me more time to clean and paint the underside of the Puma.

Puma rancho Pro comp rhino trans.2Puma rancho Pro comp rhino trans.4

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It is amazing how they can be so oblivious to easy in your face details. They also sent the trans to the wrong address. I gave them my business address and they sent it to my home address which cost me $150.00 extra for residential delivery charges they will be paying me back.  What a waste. I guess they must be charging way high prices to cover all of the costly mistakes they seem to be ok making.

Rancho really came thru and got the trans shipped back and changed the axles the same day it arrived to them and sent it straight back to me all shipping covered as it should be. I have my Pro Suby Rhino cased transaxle with long axles back and will install it Saturday in the Puma. While the engine and trans have been out I have cleaned and painted the under side of the car, wheel wells and engine compartment. It turned out very nice. It was not my favorite type of work but I would have hated myself later if I hadn't done it. I am glad it is done now. My heads are in transit to the engine builder. He will have them Monday. He told me he completely takes apart any new heads and checks everything. He has had new heads from CB come in with tight valve guides and get a stuck valve in the first weeks of service. I am glad he is doing this, I have bought new supposedly high quality heads in the past and have most of the valves not lapped and leaking badly. Bill will completely go through the heads and make sure they are perfect. He then should have the engine finished assembled and running by the week of the 19th. I may get the Puma up and screaming by the months end.  I am also in the process of mounting a Derale oil cooler fan assembly with fan thermostat and oil control thermostat. The only place I could get the room and get clean cool air is by mounting the cooler inside the front trunk. I will make a future post showing how I am getting fresh air flow in the trunk. It is similar to how Special Edition mounted my Radiator in the frunk of my FF Speedster Suby conversion. More to come shortly.

Puma Rancho long axle pro suby trans 2Puma type4 under carriage paint 4

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Last edited by Jimmy V.

I now have the Rancho Rhino Case Pro Suby Transaxle installed in the Puma. My heads will arrive tomorrow to the engine builder so my hope is in 2 weeks or less I will be installing the new 2.8L Type 4 in the Puma. I also hope I don't get any leaks at the axle seals. It is always a mystery to me how the crazy assortment of spacers, O rings, seals and paper gaskets work together the keep the oil in the axle tubes. I have extra shims in my setup that must have came with the disc brake conversion to offset the thicker aluminum back plates.  It wasn't leaking before the transaxle swap so I hope it works now. 

Puma rancho Pro comp rhino trans installed 3

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Here is my thinking. The stock 4.12 geared trans that was in the car needed a rebuild. The bearings were a screaming. The type 4 is going to easily have the power and torque of the Suby engine the trans was geared for. I have one of the same transaxles in my Suby Speedster and love it so it was an easy decision to go with this transaxle. I will run the type 4 in the Puma for awhile and get the carb jetting perfected then sell it off. I will then have Special Edition convert the car to Suby power and have heat and A/C in the car to make it a year round driver. That is my end game but I am really enjoying the fun of trying a couple of engines along the way. This type 4 is going to be a super strong running engine. I have had smaller displacement type 4 's in the 2.5L range that where really powerful power plants, so the 2.8L will be uncharted territory for me. I am mere weeks away for having the type 4 finished. I can't wait. Stay tuned.

PS. The Type 4 's estimated output is going to be well over 200 hp and 180-190 ft lbs of torque. I am planning on doing some tuning on a chassis dyno so I will have the real numbers eventually. I am eager to find out. Thanks for asking.

The 48/38 stage 2 ported heads and port matched manifolds have just arrived to my engine builder. He will completely disassemble the heads and check everything and fix anything that doesn't meet his standards. We went with the heads AA offers because  of his past experience with the quality, lead time and price. He assures me the heads will be great. I can see the finish line on the monster type 4, it is in sight now. 

Type 4 48-38 stage 2 ported head 2type 4 ported intakes

Type 4 48-38 stage 2 ported head 1

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@Jimmy V. After I redid my axle seals I hadn't installed the drums and the axle nuts. After a few days the axles were leaking. i thought I did them wrong so I did them again. Come to find out that the drums and axle nuts were in fact the final component to keep everything from leaking. You may get some leaking if the drums or rotors haven't been installed yet. Otherwise if your seals are in correctly you should be good.

@Jimmy V. posted:

I filled the transaxle with 90Wt gear oil last night. At least I didn't see any oil under the brake rotors this morning. The real test will be in the driving the trans.  I hate to work on something I don't completely understand. I don't fully understand how the axle seals and spacers all work to keep the oil in the axle tube, I just followed the directions I found online.

“I’ve always depended on the kindness of strangers.”  Blanche DuBois - Streetcar Named Desire

To me, transmissions have always been voodoo. I’m sure they’re pretty simple once you understand them, but I’ve always left it to experts.

BTW, Jimmy. I was re-reading this thread and it dawned on my that the original RSR’s had a 2.7 motor in them. That Puma is going to be more of an Ocelot!

Last edited by dlearl476

Transmissions aren't that hard. Swing axles and seals aren't that hard either.

You need special tools to rebuild. You need a hydraulic press, and lots of sockets/spacers to push with. You need a long pair of heavy duty needle-nose pliers with a little grinding to remove/install the axle circlips in the differential.

You need good instructions as well. You need to do research, and take your time.

Remember, I was told(on here and Facebook) that I'd never get my trans back together and have it work. Whatever. I've had it apart several times after I beat the snot out of it. I've broken synchros, circlips, and a third gear synchro hub.

The 2.8L Type 4 is nearing completion. As with anything that has been modified my engine builder is finding issues to overcome as he goes. Being an engine with a longer stroke than stock the engine is now wider by almost an inch. Some of the issues he is dealing with include having to lengthen the push rod tubes, as is they were too short and have nothing to hold them in the head or block. He figured something out to space it on the side that goes into the head. Next issue is the DTM fan shroud. The holes for the spark plug access do not line up and will need to be enlarged on one side of each hole and filled in on the other because the heads are further out than they where. The header as it was is too narrow. It will need the spot welds ground off so the extra length can be found in the slip joint areas. Bill the engine builder has assured me that each obstacle can be overcome and made perfect ( I was glad to hear that!). He has also taken apart the rocker arm assemblies and polished the shafts and cleaned everything. The rocker arm geometry was then set using custom length pushrods. The intake gaskets had to be custom shaped to match the ported heads and intakes. The engine is mostly assembled and should be getting fired up for cam break in by the end of the week. I will be buying a new crank pulley and doing some cosmetic work once I have the engine home. I am hoping there is enough height clearance to allow the DTM fan shroud and oil cooler to fit into the Puma's engine compartment. If not I have an alternate plan to use a  lower profile version 2 DTM fan shroud and a remote oil cooler. I will hopefully have the engine home sometime next week.

type 4 2.8L dirty rocker assemblytype 4 2.8L cleaned rocker assemblytype 4 2.8L making correct length pushrodsType 4 intake manifold gasket trimming to match porttype 4 2.L header not fitting wider enginetype 4 2.8L header Type 4 2.8L engine near completion

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Yes, that was my thought. I love an engine that revs up and back fast and crisp, formula one style LOL.. My plan is to detail the engine to my taste once I have it instead of having the builder charge me for that. I like doing that part. I plan to pop the engine into the car and drive her a bit and then take the engine back out once winter really sets in to make her more attractive. I am really excited to feel how this engine stacks up in comparison to the 2276 Type 1 that I just sold and the 2.5 Suby engine in my Speedster. I love comparing the different driving experiences. The engine sure sounds nice and tight. The engine should have a nice balance of torque and top end. That was the goal.

The vision of the Puma doing wheel stands just popped into my mind... hmm most of the weight including the battery is in the rear. Take the spare out of the frunk run a 1/2 gal. of fuel. If I had sticky tires who knows. I remember a front cover of Popular Mechanics back in the mid 70's that showed a VW Thing doing a wheel stand as it left a red light. They had an article describing the way the Thing was made with the engine hanging out the back made it easy to pop the clutch and lift the front wheels with a stock Thing. I never forgot that.  My minds wonders from time to time.

Arrived home yesterday with the Monster Type 4 after picking it up at the engine builder's and started getting it ready to install. I installed the custom cut aluminum pcs. to surround the engine to seal the engine compartment off from recirculating the hot cooling air. The engine surround pcs. are sold by the type 4 store to work with the DTM fan system. All of the the surround pcs. came with this engine pre build up.  I replaced the crank pulley for appearance sake and will clean and paint or replace the valve covers once the engine is installed. I am concerned that I don't have enough over head clearance to fit the tall DTM fan shroud, It is going to be very close and just fit if it does. If it doesn't fit I have a fall back plan to use a version 2 DTM shroud that was made to have a lower profile. Stay tuned. PS I just returned from the auto parts store with FI style hose clamps to replace all the worm gear clamps.Type 4 2.8 L monster ready to install 2Type 4 2.8 L back

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Last edited by Jimmy V.

The engine was in almost as new condition ( the engine had only 4000 miles on it). The crank and rod journals were at new size and didn't need anything but a polish, the cam was in perfect shape, the pistons, rings and cylinders all perfect the cylinders still showed cross hatching. He did find a bent pushrod. If my memory serves I read the previous owner's (Chris Sutton) build blog and he mentioned that after having the engine assembled he cranked the engine over and it locked up. He tore it back down and found the cam was several teeth off from having the dots match up. The top of one piston had a little smile mark where a valve hit it. I assume he bent a push rod then. This may have caused the low compression symptom he was experiencing I don't know.  I sold off the crank, rods, heads, cam, lifters and a set of new 96mm P&C's. Which netted me more than the entire engine cost me. Then I spent a ton of money having the engine transformed into the 2.8L monster it is.

The battle is partially won. The monster 2.8 L type 4 is in the engine bay of the Puma and securely bolted to the new Rancho transaxle. I had to remove the already installed engine compartment sealing tin, crank and alternator pulleys and the header to get her to to finally to release and drop into the transaxle. Oh that magical feeling when the engine finally releases and slides into the trans. Taking a break today to recharge. The 11 hour one man battle did me in!

Type 4 2.8L before the battle. Type 4 2.8L battle partially over.

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Ok, I went to close the hood and it hits the top of the DTM shroud just as I feared. So, I can now pull the engine back out and remove the DTM fan shroud buy a Version 2 DTM and install it along with a remote oil cooler fan assembly and thermostat. Or I can finish the engine install and run it with stand offs of some design that will hold the hood open a few inches, this way I can drive it some while the weather is still nice and pull the engine later this winter to install the V2 DTM. The damn lid is only a few inches from closing. I also had thought of cutting a hole in the hood to allow the top of the DTM to protrude and covering it with a small scoop or turbo bulge but then I would be cutting up the hood. The issue is patience and time. I really would like to drive the car to see how it runs this season so I may go with rigging something to hold the hood open a few inches, it actually doesn't look that bad. I am so close I can taste it.

I almost fell to the temptation of getting out the sawsall at 3 am Sunday morning while tired and frustrated. I made myself stop and go to bed, a very smart decision. After more looking at what is hitting today I was able to trim away a portion of the inner hood and then get the hood to close with a slight bulge of the hood that could someday be a trend to allow more cooling air in and be a sign to those who know that underneath lurks a monster 2.8L type 4 engine LOL. Kidding aside, It was a relief to discover that I will be able to get this long awaited engine running so I can drive this little beast soon. I hope to have the car on the road by weeks end. I need to tidy the wiring up and get the engine compartment sealed separating the top side from the bottom which as we know is so important to keep our air cooled engines running cool. I also want to get the oil pressure , oil temp and head temp gauges hooked up. I am currently waiting for a new electronic distributor to arrive. The one on the engine now is an old points distributor. The new distributor should arrive no later than Wednesday. I went to buy a Pertronix kit but was told they are out of stock and back ordered with a 3-4 week min. lead time. They did have the complete Pertronix Flame thrower dist. in stock so I bought that.

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I appreciate your concerns but I am going to risk the cracking. I feel it is an acceptable risk to take all things considered. Fiberglass can be repaired and this is far from being a show car. I may have been able to alleviate the bowing by placing spacers under the hinge bases but unfortunately the bases appear to be permanently attached to the Fiberglass. I am going to run it as is to get the engine tested and tuned. On the good side the engine is rigidly mounted and won't be rocking or moving exacerbating the cracking threat. I did need to cut away a portion of the inside lip of the hood opening to make clearance for the top of the oil cooler. I saved the pc. that was cut out for future option of replace and fiberglass repair.

Thanks to all for their interest and encouragement on this journey. It has been fun. I really hope this thing runs like I think it will. If so, it will be a ton of fun. I should have a test drive tomorrow or Thursday. I will keep you all posted.

I hadn't mentioned the update kits that I had installed on the 44 Weber carbs. We were on the fence about moving up to 48 IDF carbs and decided to use the CB Performance Update kit on the 44 Weber carbs I have. The kits remove the auxiliary and main venturi with one larger (38mm) venturi and add a special horizontal spray bar. This allows more air and fuel to flow through the carbs without losing drivability. The kits had been out of stock and came back in stock just a week ago. I had a kit direct shipped to the engine builder. Mark at CB asked me when I was ordering what engine I was using the kits on. I told him a 2.8L type 4 build and he said that this is exactly what they designed this kit to go on. Here is the link the the CB Performance page.  https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/6457.htm

I spent some time tonight getting the engine wired up , headers installed and dropped in the new Pertronix Flame thrower distributor. I fired the engine up for the first time. At this point I don't have provision for a muffler and this thing is loud and sounds mean. If the engine runs half as mean as it sounds then it will be scary fast. I may have created a true monster. If all goes well I hope to take a short drive tomorrow. Next I need to figure out something to quiet this down some. The video my engine builder sent doesn't represent how extremely loud the engine is. The sound it makes when rev'ed is nothing short of amazing.

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I am not ignoring the air scoop comments. I had thought the same and may go that direction when I get that far. I am placing that in the fine tuning stage of the project. I have it where the car can be driven so for now that isn't crucial.

I always knew the exhaust system that came with the engine was not going to fit. I saved the A-1 sidewinder muffler and dual exit tail pipe from the header I had on the type 1 engine and thought I could make it work with some fabrication but know now that the header takes up all the space the the tail pipe would have gone. I still may be able to use the A-1 muffler with a single down turn pipe. Once I have the car drivable I will take it down to my buddy who owns a muffler shop. He is a great guy and has worked on my custom jobs for over 25 years.  I can also buy one of the small mufflers A-1 offers to go on the end of the header and use a down turn pipe, I have some room in the wheel well for this.

Heck no Stan, absolutely no offense taken. I hope my reply was not taken wrong either. Far as the Suby engine, it is on hold for now, I have a feeling the Type 4 has found a home in the Puma for awhile. I will know for sure once I get her on the road but I think the power is going to be intoxicating and make the NA Suby engine seem tame. I can also see now that the Subaru conversion would take some major chopping as well. The engine compartment of the Puma isn't anywhere near as large as the Speedster and it tapers down as you go toward the rear. So talk about chopping the car up, the frunk would be cut up for the radiator and the rear would be a challenge to say the least. Not saying it will never happen but for now the monster Type 4 has a home. Check with me next week and that may change. I don't mind any comments and now have learned the personality of the forum and enjoy the back and forth.

@Jimmy V. posted:

Respectfully, If we all thought like that the hot rod and custom scene born after WWII going forward would never have started. You can choose not to chop up your car, I can do as I please with mine. Anything I do to the Puma can be reversed with some Fiberglass matting and resin. To each his own taste, I say.

I was going to say in my post last night that if it were me, I'd remove to engine cover and either make a copy with scoops or have a boat place do it. And keep the original cover as is for when you put the Subie in it (if you end up doing that.)

Personally, I think having the scoop would make it distinctive to reflect the distinctive nature of the motor.  

Last edited by dlearl476
@Jimmy V. posted:

I spent some time tonight getting the engine wired up , headers installed and dropped in the new Pertronix Flame thrower distributor. I fired the engine up for the first time. At this point I don't have provision for a muffler and this thing is loud and sounds mean. If the engine runs half as mean as it sounds then it will be scary fast. I may have created a true monster. If all goes well I hope to take a short drive tomorrow. Next I need to figure out something to quiet this down some. The video my engine builder sent doesn't represent how extremely loud the engine is. The sound it makes when rev'ed is nothing short of amazing.

type 4 header 2type 4 header 1

@Jimmy V. What car is the motor installed in?

I have been getting all the small details of the engine install lined out. The engine compartment is completely sealed all the way around the engine front and across the back. Zero hot air from under the engine will get recycled into the cooling fan or carb throats. All fresh clean cool air going into the cooling fan and into the carbs as the engine was designed by VW/Porsche. In my experience this makes all the difference between a hot running engine and an engine that runs the correct temp. (You don't want the engine to run too cool either).

I took the Puma for a few test runs last night and today. When I got brave enough and trusted the car today I opened the carbs past half throttle... the engine is all that and a large bag of chips. It gave me the kick in the pants neck snapping acceleration I was looking for and I was no where near full throttle. The engine is amazing and will (measured with my seat of the pants feel) kick my Suby Speedster's ass when it comes to acceleration. This is what I was hoping for, mission accomplished in this area. I am going to have a muffler shop retrofit the chrome A-1 in and out muffler I have left over from my 2276 side winder header. I pushed this muffler onto the header collector and it does the job to quiet the engine and still sound mean. I will make an appointment tomorrow to have the muffler installed. The car will be much more user friendly. The sound and pull this engine has is really amazing as it should be. I was adding up the bills on this engine and I could have bought 2 - Ford 347 turnkey roller engines with aluminum heads and 465HP for what this engine has cost. It may not be practical but boy is it fun. I had three people wave and yell cool car on my short drives. People seem to like the Puma.

type 4 engine compartment 2type 4 engine compartment 1

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Last edited by Jimmy V.

I have an appt. tomorrow morning with a muffler shop to install the A-1 muffler that I saved from the sidewinder header I had on the 2276 Type 1 engine. I held the muffler on the end of the type 4's header and it really quieted the beast down. I am hoping the shop has the talent to attach the muffler in a way it can be easily removed to access the rockers on the passenger side head.

I have also ordered a synclink throttle cable set up to replace the cross bar linkage.  I don't like the way cross bar is setup and I feel the carbs will never be fully in sync using it. Anyone have experience with the synclink?

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The synchlink uses a compound cable, like the brake cable on a bicycle (there's an inner cable and a rigid outer metal housing).

The only motion that matters is the inner cable relative to the outer housing. The two ends of the housing can move relative to each other and it doesn't affect how much motion is transferred by the cable.

Despite the photo above, the cable between the two sides doesn't need to be in a perfectly straight line. Kinda like a Bowden tube works.

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The cables should not get hot enough to make a noticeable difference and they would all expand the same amount. The system looks like it will really work well. I guess I will find out. It has to be better than what I have now. The carb bell crank arm on the drivers side has a 1.5" long rod coming off the linkage at 90 degrees to make the reach. It is what is needed to have synchronized carb opening but it is flimsy and doesn't work well.

@Jimmy V. posted:

I am curious, Why would that keep engine builders from buying the kits?

It's just a guess. But I got the impression that Pete's a dude making these in his spare time. I'm not sure he could or wants to build them in the kind of quantities that builders like Pat would need.

Also, there's the cost of them-- not a lot of people want to give that much for a linkage (although I think they are worth every penny).

Last edited by Stan Galat

"It's just a guess. But I got the impression that Pete's a dude making these in his spare time. I'm not sure he could or wants to build them in the kind of quantities that builders like Pat would need."

Reminds me of Mike Kitteridge, the founder of Yankee Candle.  He built his business up with a couple of friends and eventually sold it for $500 Million.  After that, he had a wonderful collection of antique and pedigree cars and no candle production worries.  Alas, he died in 2019, but before that I had toured his collection.  "Wow" best suits it.

https://www.meshnewengland.com...2/the-candle-man-can

Last edited by Gordon Nichols
@edsnova posted:

So glad you got underway on that carb linkage. I saw that extender bit and was about to ask about it.

It seems to be a type4/DTM shroud issue. Lenny's linkage(DTM/type4) had the extensions both on the carb base and on the throttle levers. The spacers move the bar backward, to avoid interference with the shroud.

I don't like the way it looks but it seems to work.

CB Performance supplies one spacer to fix the offset on type1 linkages as well.

I know it would be near impossible to install and adjust, but is it possible to install the linkage reversed? That's how mine is on my Spyder, but I'm lucky enough to have a 911 shroud that actually isn't in the way.

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I believe the synclink doesn't work with a stock shroud with the heater air outlets. If so, this is disappointing.



I've heard this, but I think you might make it work. I've got the stock shroud with heater tubes, and it looks like this on the passenger side (a little tighter than driver's side):

SynchLinkClearance

The tubes are flexible and can be 'munched' a little without hurting heat flow much. I guess it also depends on which oil filler tube you have. The old stock VW filler (shown here) does get in the way some, but you could use something more compact, I guess.

I also have a small tube from the breather box connected to the oil filler, which doesn't help either. But it's important to remember that the cable to the synchlink doesn't need to feed straight in and can be deflected a little, too.

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I spent a couple of hours at a local shop that does muffler work this morning. They were good enough to take on my custom job, not all shops want this type of work. The tech had a real challenge but in the end I am happy with the results. He was able to use an A-1 (In & out the same side) high flow muffler that I had. It is actually perfect for the space I have left with the BAS header being so close to the rear valence. I needed the muffler to be installed so it can be easily removed to access the valve cover. The tech was able to accomplish this and have the tailpipe exit through the original cutout in the body. I  plan to remove the muffler and grind the welds some and clean off the rattle can silver paint to expose the natural stainless finish. Not a bad job for what we had to work with. The muffler sounds great, it is actually quiet until the carbs open up then it has a deep rich roar. I am just glad to be able to drive the car and to start getting the carbs jetted. I drove it 15 miles up to my business which is all secondary highway . The car is very close to being tuned in. I need to play with the timing to see what amount of advance the engine likes best. Upon arrival the engine was only warm to the touch on the top side and the oil temp only warmed up to 66 degrees Celcius (about 151 F) which is ok in my book. It is a cloudy 55 here today. So the DTM is doing its job (Maybe too good). Having the engine sealed well keeping only fresh cool air going into the fan and carbs makes all the difference. More to come as I drive it.

Type 4 2.8L Puma custom A-1 Muffler install 2Type 4 2.8L Puma custom A-1 Muffler install 3

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Thanks for asking Michael, The trans gearing appears to be a very good match. The engine actually feels very similar to the Suby engine in my Speedster but I think it is going to have more power once I explore 1/2 throttle to full open driving, I haven't pushed the engine yet. The funny thing is that I am running the exact same A-1 muffler on both cars as well. I had little doubt the trans would be a good match. I really like the gear ratio choices they build this trans with. All the gears are a tad taller and 4th gear gives me 70 MPH at 3200 rpm.  So yes to me it feels like a good match.

Speedster Conversion169

speedster conversion 97 Rancho Pro-Suby Transaxle

@dlearl476 posted:

Very nice, Jimmy. Now you need a louvered grill to cover up that gap where the original VW exhaust exited.

Some people are never happy LOL ...All kidding aside, Yes that would be nice. This will be on the to do list when the car gets in the hands of a body shop. I will have them fill in the cut outs for the dual exit exhaust and fill and smooth some stress cracks. For now I am going to drive the car while I can to get the engine tuned just right. My next thing to do is replace the stock pushrod tubes with special longer pushrod tubes I just bought from European Motors . A couple of the stock ones are leaking because of being too short, they are right at the edge. The engine is almost an inch wider than stock. I had to search a bit but found that longer tubes are made just for monster type 4 engines. The longer tubes have an extra O ring groove. I just hope I can get the tubes switched out without taking the header back off. If I do I will probably just pull the engine and switch to a V2 DTM now.

type 4 2.8L stock pushrod tubes too short and leak

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@Jimmy V. posted:

Some people are never happy LOL ...

Like they say in the Ducati Monster forum: "there's no such thing as being 'finished' with your mods."

i could swear I saw a model of 911 that had a panel with vertical slots (like the oil cooler panel on the front of a Spyder) between the over riders below the license plate panel, but I can't find a picture of it. 911R maybe?  

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Last edited by dlearl476

The longer pushrod tubes are now installed. They are about a 1/2" longer than stock and have a provision for an extra O ring on the side that goes into the engine block. That cured the little oil leakage I had on a couple of the factory type 4 tubes. I also had a leak on the passenger side outer axle seal that I had recently redone during the new Rancho transaxle install. I found that the inside spring on the rubber seal had come out of place. I had an extra seal kit and the leak is fixed. I have now driven the engine approx. 125 miles. It is really powerful even though I still am taking it very easy during the initial break in miles. The couple of times I have opened the throttle past 1/2 way resulted in an incredible amount of forward thrust and an extremely aggressive exhaust note. It moves through the gears scarily fast and a couple of times I have found myself north of 80 before I realize it. I am very happy with how cool the engine runs. A DTM fan that is setup correctly is an efficient system. I am looking forward to getting the Sync Link throttle cable system in and installed. The carbs are not perfectly in sync and getting them synced up should unleash more of the power this beast has. I have really enjoyed driving this. I took a couple of pics tonight around 6:30 pm which was the magic hour for perfect lighting to take pics.

Puma 2.8L Type 4 magic hour pic 2 10-31-2020Puma 2.8L type 4 magic hour pic 10-31-2020Puma 2.8L type 4 exhaust

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Last edited by Jimmy V.

I received the sync link throttle linkage kit arrived Monday. The parts are all professional looking and in marked bags with detailed install instructions. I have the kit about half installed, which is the arms that bolt to the carb bases and the aluminum pulleys that screw on to the throttle shafts. I turned the carb bases around to make more room and for a cleaner look. I will have the install completed tonight I hope. The end result will be smooth perfectly synchronized throttle operation. I really like the looks of this setup and will let you all know how it does.

type 4 2.8L sync link assemble 2type 4 2.8L sync link assemble 1type 4 2.8L sync link assemble 3

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There is a lot to report other than the election!

I finished the install of the synclink throttle cable system and I love it. The cross bar linkage I had didn't keep the carbs in sync. The sync link is a well made and designed system. The throttle pedal feels smooth and light and the car really drives nicer now. 

I took the Puma on a ride down some twisting country roads today and it was a blast to drive, ripping down the straights and around the curves. This is a fun car!

  Oh, and by the way I just bought the red 87 Puma GTI that is listed on Samba. The owner and I came to an agreeable price and the deal is done. I am now working on logistics to pick the car up. I guess I will now have his and her Puma's, it helps that my wife loves Puma's.

type 4 2.8L sync link assemble 487 Puma GTI 187 Puma GTI Engine 187 Puma GTI interior 1

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Bad news and a bad day yesterday. I took the Puma for a short drive and was planning on pulling the engine when I returned to get it ready to switch to the V2 DTM low profile fan shroud. I was accelerating away from a stop light and the new sync link throttle linkage stuck open. I have had this experience before with other cars and it is a little disconcerting but I know what to do. Soon as I felt the throttle stick open (the car was pulling hard in 2nd gear and heading to rear end the car in front of me) I  hit the brake and clutch as I was reaching for the ignition key. It seemed like time went into slow motion except for the sound of my monster type 4 free revving up higher than I thought possible. It felt like it took an hour for my hand to leave the steering wheel and turn off the key. I heard a bang from the engine at almost the same moment I got the key turned to the off position. I coasted to a gas station and found the reason of the stuck cable and freed it up. I tried starting the car and it turned over but wouldn't start and a banging sound can be heard one time each revolution of the engine. A friendly Christian guy traveling from Cincinnati back to St. Louis gave me a tow home with a tow strap, he even helped me push the car up my driveway and onto the lift, what a nice thing to do. I pulled the engine today and stripped it to a long block. The engine can be turned by hand but once each revolution you can feel something hanging up a bit. Non of the valves are going up and down. I went to remove the pressure plate and found that the fly wheel is flopping around and all of the bolts that hold the flywheel to the crank are loose. So I am not sure what all is messed up but it doesn't appear to be good at all. The engine is being dropped off at the builder tonight at 7:30. I will post what he finds when he tears into the engine later this week. I wish I would have invested in a rev limiting rotor button.

Type 4 2.8L out of car to be diagnosed 2

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Last edited by Jimmy V.