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Yes it could have been catastrophic but the builder told me nothing should have happened or broken by the short over rev situation. His opinion is the cam was bad to start and probably had a hair line crack in it. All in all it was fortunate but the cost of a new cam and cam gear and new lifters and the labor it is going to cost an easy Grand or more.  Part of the fun I guess. The up side is this engine will be better than ever and the heads are going to have special channeled copper gaskets to seal the high pressure that is developed in the combustion chambers. The cam will be a little more aggressive and the engine will be amazing. I have no doubt.

@Jimmy V. posted:

Yes it could have been catastrophic but the builder told me nothing should have happened or broken by the short over rev situation. His opinion is the cam was bad to start and probably had a hair line crack in it. All in all it was fortunate but the cost of a new cam and cam gear and new lifters and the labor it is going to cost an easy Grand or more.  Part of the fun I guess. The up side is this engine will be better than ever and the heads are going to have special channeled copper gaskets to seal the high pressure that is developed in the combustion chambers. The cam will be a little more aggressive and the engine will be amazing. I have no doubt.

I'm sure you've considered it but I'd go after the manufacturer for all or some of the labor costs associated with the poorly manufactured cam. I had to have a new axle installed on my trailer because the left rear wheel wore out completely after only 12K miles of towing. I got a new axle shipped to me and the axle manufacturer is covering 1.5 hours of labor to install it.

@Jimmy V. posted:

Yes it could have been catastrophic but the builder told me nothing should have happened or broken by the short over rev situation. His opinion is the cam was bad to start and probably had a hair line crack in it. All in all it was fortunate but the cost of a new cam and cam gear and new lifters and the labor it is going to cost an easy Grand or more.  Part of the fun I guess. The up side is this engine will be better than ever and the heads are going to have special channeled copper gaskets to seal the high pressure that is developed in the combustion chambers. The cam will be a little more aggressive and the engine will be amazing. I have no doubt.

What are the odds that Web will cough up some of the parts to make that happen, given that you, more than likely, got a defective cam?



Good thing they aren't interference heads or you would have had a box full of scrap metal to recycle. (He types, trying to remember when he last replaced his 958 timing belt.)

Last edited by dlearl476

Sorry about the ordeal Jimmy. Glad you are moving forward. My engine is in a different league than yours, but on my T1 2276, I'm using a Webcam 86B with a lobe separation angle of 105 degrees. Heads are ported 42/37.5 but with only 1.25 ratio rockers - I'm leaving power on the table (what was I thinking).

I'm happy with the WebCam specs and I did look at the 86A/86B because I was going to go with a T4 build at one point.

Sounds like you are moving forward!

The rule of one thing leads to another. Changing to a different cam that has a higher lift when replacing the cam that broke has led to a clearance issue with the connecting rod ends and the cam lobe due to the 82mm stroker crank. As the picture shows there is less than the min. of .062" of clearance needed. The builder is going to remove material from the end of each connecting rod and rebalance before reassembling the long block. Mo money mo money that is all it will take.

Type 4 2.8L new cam to crank clearance

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Have you considered a 78mm crank? And sell the 82mm?

That 78mm crank would give you 0.078" clearance with zero removed from the rods.

That cam really likes to REV, so the shorter stroke may help.

Your 2786 would become a 2650, still a BIG motor.  I know you'd have to rebalance the crank/pulley/flywheel and probably re-do the deck height, chamber size and CR.

Never mind...

Last edited by DannyP

Thanks for the suggestion but this isn't the best way to go if you really think about it. 1st the cost of a new crank less what I could sell my used crank would be approx. $300-400.00 once I even find a buyer for a used type IV 82mm crank. The cylinders would to be cut shorter or the connecting rods changed for longer ones or taller pistons bought. Making the stroke shorter the pistons would not travel as far out in the cylinder by 2mm dropping the compression to 8.1 CR. I would lose displacement and thus power and spend more doing it compared to having a small amount of material removed from the connecting rod edge and rebalancing them.

Last edited by Jimmy V.

I was starting to write this post and was typing the phrase " Monster Type 4 " and hit the shift key on my keyboard while typing the "4" and this is what I typed " Monster Type $" . How funny and right on the mark is that? This engine has been a fun journey that is still not complete. The engine had more power than any air cooled engine I ever had or drove and all 4 heads were leaking a small amount. When the engine builder gets finished with it having replaced the broken cam with a "hotter" one and installing .040" thick copper gasket rings in the cylinder heads (same amount being removed from the cylinder bottom seating ledges to keep the deck height the same and compression at 9.5:1) to fix the compression leak, the engine is going to be scary powerful. That said I am at torn by how hard the decision was and sad to say it looks like I won't be installing the engine back into the Puma. Carey is picking the Puma up on Dec. 8th to do a Suby conversion on it having it finished by spring 2021. I am shooting for heat and A/C as well in this conversion.  This has been my plan all along and I ran out of time before being able to play with the Monster Type $ engine. So I am going to either offer it for sale or hang on to it awhile to use in a future project. If I held off on sending the Puma to Carey now I would have to wait until next winter to have the conversion done if he would even have the time then. I am going with Carey's schedule and am grateful he has taken on the job. My plan is to have the body restored next winter giving me the summer to enjoy the Suby/Puma conversion.

I have to say air cooled is fun but once again I have proven to myself that the air cooled VW engine platforms have a hard time competing with the smooth power and dependability of the modern Suby engine. The cost to get there with an air cooled is more than steep and still leaves me wanting.  I have to remind myself the two engines aren't apples to apples in comparison. Both have their own attractions but the air cooled engines have far more detractions. They are 50-60 year old engine platforms, and design that cost a fortune to build up and eventually leak oil, and are at least 5 times more fragile than a modern Suby setup. I would even venture to say that a $20k plus air cooled Type 4 engine built by someone like Raby still cannot be fairly compared to the modern Suby engine.  I think Raby is even now almost exclusively building Suby engines, what does that tell you? I am not a purist that must have the correct style engine in a car. I am a hot rodder that loves to tinker and build something not seen everyday and I like to go fast doing it and I think many of us may be this way. I have had a blast with the two engines I have had in the Puma this summer and fall, it is now time for the third and final iteration of the 77 Puma GTE Hot rod.

The comments made above are of course from my opinion taken from my own experience and are not intended to hurt, judge or detract from what anyone else does or decides to do with their cars or what engines they like to run. Thanks for being on the ride with me. Stay tuned for more stupid decisions and unknown outcomes. You just never know with me. You may think me little crazy, but life is too short to be any other way, I think... Happy Thanksgiving I love you guys and appreciate the fellowship we have.

I am heading to the engine builder to pick up the Monster type 4 today. I also have made a hard decision to not have Carey and the gang convert the Puma to Suby power this winter. I am going to install the type 4 back in the Puma to first break the cam in and then have some fun finding out how much power the engine will make now that it is not leaking compression on all 4 cylinders (hopefully) and with the hotter cam that will let the heads breath as designed. I can have the suby converted next summer if I still want too. I couldn't stand not seeing the type 4 project through to the end. I will keep you posted.

type 4 2.8L new copper head gaskets

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@Jimmy V. posted:

I also have made a hard decision to not have Carey and the gang convert the Puma to Suby power this winter. I am going to install the type 4 back in the Puma to first break the cam in and then have some fun finding out how much power the engine will make now that it is not leaking compression on all 4 cylinders (hopefully) and with the hotter cam that will let the heads breath as designed.



I would have won the over/under

@Jimmy V. wrote- " I am going to install the type 4 back in the Puma to first break the cam in and then have some fun finding out how much power the engine will make now that it is not leaking compression on all 4 cylinders (hopefully) and with the hotter cam that will let the heads breath as designed.... I couldn't stand not seeing the type 4 project through to the end. I will keep you posted."

It's going to be a BEAST!

I used truck bed liner paint on my valve covers. It dries to a very hard durable finish that the spring clips won't rub off. I worked for a short time tonight installing the carbs. I will be setting up the new sync link throttle system next. The sync link guy sent me an entire new setup with some revisions specific to my engine and carbs. I plan to hear the engine run by the weekend. I think this thing is going to be a power house.

Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 8a 1Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 9 1Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 7 1

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Last edited by Jimmy V.

The special aluminum pcs that surround the engine are screwed to the aluminum tabs. This gives the engine compartment a nice tight seal to keep the hot air under the engine and the nice cool incoming air on the top side. See the pic below, the tabs are under the surround pcs. where you see the screws. It is a very well made setup. The type 4 sells the surrounding pcs to fit regular type 1 compartments and a special set just for the Speedster replica's.

Type 4 2.8 L monster ready to install 2

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I spent a few hours tonight fitting the surrounding engine compartment sealing tin pcs. to the DTM shroud. It was quite tedious because the mounting tabs on the shroud were all attached in the wrong location being too high. I had to drill out all of the attaching rivets and locate the tabs to the correct locations. All in a the fun of it. Slowly getting closer to installing the engine in the puma, maybe Saturday.

Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 9b1Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 9c1Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 9d1Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 9e1

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The monster type 4 is back home in the Puma and needs to have the wiring routed and hooked up, the header and muffler installed and the revised and hopefully better non sticking sync link throttle cable system completed. Next comes cam break in runs then the mounting and plumbing of the external Derale oil cooler/fan.  I have a bunch of work left to do before the Type 4 makes the Puma go. I was thinking this morning about were this all started, it started with seeing a fellow SOC member's listing for a 2056 RAT type 4 engine which I bought for $1500.00 (almost the original cost of the header it came with). This is a case of a $1500.00 good deal costing me another $9k before it is all said and done. Anyone ever have this happen? Oh well it will be all worth it when this engine lives up to it's full potential. You know that "Ahh yes" feeling of this thing is dialed in now. Soon I hope. My worry at this stage is the 100 possible little things that can go wrong on a custom job like this that can be quickly revealed upon first start. Cross your fingers friends.

Type 4 2.8 L monster engine after repair 9f1

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It seems to always be the case in my endeavours as well.  You start with an upgrade and you screw it up and have to replace this or that.  I looked at getting a Puma recently, then I started running the numbers in my head and the owner of course had a dream price that he was wanting and reality wasn't settling in but as the calculations kept going up and up I just passed on it, because I knew I was only scratching the surface.  Just saying.

@Jimmy V. posted:

... I was thinking this morning about were this all started, it started with seeing a fellow SOC member's listing for a 2056 RAT type 4 engine which I bought for $1500.00 (almost the original cost of the header it came with). This is a case of a $1500.00 good deal costing me another $9k before it is all said and done. Anyone ever have this happen?

@Stan Galat posted:

Every time I do something to the car.

Every single time.

I laughed out loud- so much truth in that, guys!

Hooray!! The engine fired right up and nothing broke or leaked. Once running I quickly locked it in at 2000 RPM for the first 20 minutes of it's new life to break the cam in. Not one single hiccup or issues of any kind. No oil or compression leaks. Pre-start leak down test has all 4 cylinders at less than 2% cold leak down which is good for an engine of this type that isn't using total seal rings. Now that the cam is broken in and everything else looks good I will work on mounting and plumbing the oil cooler. I think the A-1 muffler is actually too quiet for my taste but it makes it easy to hear any engine noises that could indicate trouble. The builder has the valve lash set at .005" which I will eventually reset to the near zero lash that the chrome moly push rods will allow. This will make the valve train noise nearly non existent. Now I can't wait to drive this bad boy. More work before that happens.

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Last edited by Jimmy V.
@TRP posted:

The rain is my fault. It rained when I bought my Speedster in 2014... and it rained when I sold it on Friday / bought its replacement the same day.

My bad...

I started calling my Spyder "the rainmaker" the first two years I had it out here. It seems every time I drove it, clouds would appear from nowhere and at least sprinkle on me before I made it home. I've only been caught in one "seek covered shelter" downpour, though.

Congrats on the initial fire up, Jimmy. Looking forward to a road test.

Last edited by dlearl476

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