I would guess that more than 80% new are turn key now.
Ok, so another general question. Turn-key vs. build (I know the sky is the limit here, 100's of variable but assume a mild build and a Beck/vintage/IM car) what are you "saving" in overall cost of your car? My guess is 10-15k just strictly gut feeling. I also know that each car builder has a "base" car which is what I am referring too. I know IM is top of the food chain in cost.
Jim Kelly posted:Ray,
Phil's HP of 230 is not difficult to get in the later model engines. EJ255 model has stock HP of 210-265, while EJ257 has from 250-300. Outfront does some head, cam, exhaust and ECU mods that would also up the HP.
Never heard those numbers Jim...
Tom Blankinship posted:My AC engine gave me few issues, but what I didn’t like was the extended warm up. Most of my driving is around town and by the time the car was warmed up and running right, I was there.
There’s a reason cars have computer control & electronic fuel injection.
The romance with authentic things, like drum brakes, cable activated clutches, sloppy shifters, no heat, wimpy horn (you need a loud horn), dual Weber carbs, etc. faded mighty fast for me.
I love the styling, not the 1930’s tech.
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I actually still like the cable clutch I find I can feel the clutch better than a hydraulic clutch but that is me.
The fact that you do not need to warm it up is really nice and that means no carbs.
As for wimpy horn well I got a Screaming Banshee and that wakes up just about anyone 
550 Phil posted:Outfront claims the 230 hp at the crank. I have not seen the dyno. My last suby spyder was the stock 165 hp DOHC. My current car is so much faster than my previous car I'm inclined to believe the numbers. I can spin both tires in 1st and 2nd with ease.
The only sacrifice I make with the extra hp is, the way the Stinger ECU is set up the car must be warmed up to 150 degrees before driving or it will stall easily. I don't care. I like to hear it purr. Running temp is 180 degrees. I've never seen it above 190.
I think the work they do is up the compression quite a bit and run 91 and then valve work, head flow and cams... With that the ECU may not have a warm up stage and hence you have to idle it for a bit before getting going but over 180 hp must make it a rocket ship spyder. enjoy it.
@Art...no sir, not looking for a quote...I'm sure I'm not the only one who has asked him/herself what is the differential in building your own car vs. turn-key. I get where you are going but if you've been following this thread I'm not at the buying stage and I don't like to waste people's time especially when I am not ready to buy. I have an idea, just looking to get feedback from people who have bought already.
428Street, Milford CT. posted:Ok, so another general question. Turn-key vs. build (I know the sky is the limit here, 100's of variable but assume a mild build and a Beck/vintage/IM car) what are you "saving" in overall cost of your car? My guess is 10-15k just strictly gut feeling. I also know that each car builder has a "base" car which is what I am referring too. I know IM is top of the food chain in cost.
A Beck roller is about $32,000 minus the engine.
http://www.beckspeedster.com/whatsaroller.html
Vintage Motorcars shows a builder's kit for $8,500 but that is a body only, looks like you'll need to buy everything else to finish it. All of it can be purchased through him though. I believe he has a "Roller" package but he's been pretty busy this year moving to his new shop and may not have updated his website.
https://www.vintagespyders.com/speedster-stage-1/
Kitman Motors sells "Rollers" I believe but I didn't see prices on his website. Send @Chris Kleber, KitMan Motors an email, he'll get back to you.
Beck has a breakdown of roller v. turnkey costs on their web site. Not cheap.
I still say the way forward is to find a good used example on an IRS pan and swap-in a mild, stockish Subaru or something hotted-up a little such as the Stroud-endorsed Frankenmotor. That's an EJ25 block with earlier EJ22 heads. The combo ups the compression ratio and, with a pair of cheap Delta cam regrinds and some minor esoterica you get an honest 185 hp at the crank which is, as I've said before, just a little too much for this chassis.
A well-sorted CMC assembled with this combo, a Rancho or similar transaxle with a .93 4th gear and 3.44 R&P, disks all around and whatever wheels make you happy would check all the boxes for comparable money to the Beck roller.
IaM-Ray posted:Does your engine really dyno at that number 230hp
I was under the impression that much over 210-215 was really hard to get in a N/A and that is why they always seem to go turbo
Ray. I really have no idea if my engine does 230 hp at the crank. Greg told me he dyno'd a car with the same engine build that dyno'd over 200 hp at the rear wheels. I just know its frikin fast 
It's been said we spread a big tent here. We end up driving these silly cars for many different reasons. They serve different purposes for each of us, and we set them up differently to suit.
For all the annoyances of 1950's technology, some of us don't mind it much. For lots of cold, hard engineering reasons, the Subaru motor may be a better choice, but there are factors not so cold or hard for staying old school. And they're mostly not about engineering.
In a strangely perverse way, I kind of like the old routines - allowing plenty of time for warm-up, nursing it a bit from a cold start, watching the temp gauge and driving accordingly. It really makes no sense, except to me.
There's the driving, too. Paying more attention than you ever would in a modern car picking a line and staying on the road. Watching for ruts and potholes or paying the price. Listening to the engine working, watching the grade, choosing gears carefully to stay in the power band and avoid lugging. Learning to rev match like your car's life depends on it - it probably does.
Driving a car like this was, and is, a lot more work, but driving it well has its little rewards.
I don't use this car for short hops. I usually won't fire it up for anything under 20 miles. I've got other ways to get to Costco or the dentist's office.
But when I want to work my way down a rural stretch of two-lane on a fine day, this is the car I take.
After it warms up.
I see both sides and like I've been saying this will be a journey for me that I am just starting. I'm not sure what I'm going to end up with but it will be the best solution for me. I think the three main decisions are new/used (going in the used direction), AC or WC and rear suspension. From all the feedback, they all look fairly the same externally and close to the original shape. I'd like a close dash, under dash e-brake and close tire/wheel combo.
Speedsters are one of those situations where you want to buy the best example that you can afford. Paint, body, interior work is not as cheap as it once was.
With upgrades - Buy once. Cry once.
Dont ask about gear ratios. Ever.
428Street, Milford CT. posted:I see both sides and like I've been saying this will be a journey for me that I am just starting. I'm not sure what I'm going to end up with but it will be the best solution for me. I think the three main decisions are new/used (going in the used direction), AC or WC and rear suspension. From all the feedback, they all look fairly the same externally and close to the original shape. I'd like a close dash, under dash e-brake and close tire/wheel combo.
Hello Frank, x Milfordite here (26 yrs) and have been following this thread, OK lurking as they say. There is an SOC member here who did a great job on his build (CMC) and also detailed this build extensively which would be a good read for you.
His name is Paul but the search criteria would be "Mango Smoothie" which you will find on this site but Google it and it will lead you to his build site and more.
Nice build on your Cobra.
Michael
Frank, the conventional wisdom is that the cost savings of doing it yourself over buying a turnkey (or completed roller like your Cobra) are usually minimal unless you are a pro at it like Alan or Troy.
MikeLB, thank you.
Lane - understand, I'm more than likely looking for a close to turn key because I don't have the expertise with these cars. Can I figure it out? Yup. Do I want to? No sure. Can I ever do it as well as someone who does this every day? No way.
I was in the same boat, as, I imagine, are most buyers now.
428Street, Milford CT. posted:Ok, so another general question. Turn-key vs. build (I know the sky is the limit here, 100's of variable but assume a mild build and a Beck/vintage/IM car) what are you "saving" in overall cost of your car? My guess is 10-15k just strictly gut feeling. I also know that each car builder has a "base" car which is what I am referring too. I know IM is top of the food chain in cost.
You can save 10k but you will be in your garage every day for at least 6 months...I'm currently building my own Speedster, the car will have a 356 rebuilt engine, original VDO gauges, original VDM Steering wheel for the same budget as a Vintage or Beck Turnkey car.
There is not much, if any, savings to building yourself. In my opinion. the only reason to build yourself is because you want to. I bought a body, a shortened pan, a windshield, a few other pieces (which I ended up not using!) and a transaxle (which ended up jumping out of third gear!). Every part on my car is new; bearings, steering box, tie rods, shocks, ball joints, brake system, lights, seats, trim, etc. I did everything on my car except spraying the paint, upholstering the seats and building the engine. After 4 years I was ready to be finished.
The satisfaction is that I know every last bolt of my car intimately, it required very little additional sorting when finished. I researched every last detail and made sure everything was done correctly. One advantage is that I was already familiar with aircooled VWs. I used quality parts from many of the builders such as Vintage Speedsters, Beck (Carey is a great guy!) and parts suppliers such as Sierra Madre, CIP1, etc. I love my car and continue to tinker because its fun!
However, the downside is the cost, I quit counting when it went north of 30K. Please don't tell my wife. 
I could have bought a high quality, name brand, factory built car and missed out on the 4 years of fun. But, I would do it again, I always do... LOL.
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+1 to what James said. I think Brian is in the same boat. Built his because he wanted to, but he's well north of what a Vintage would have cost him when he started.
I'm well past what a used Vintage would have cost me and I'm not done yet. That said, I've driven mine a ton over the past 4 years. This year was the only year it's been down for an extended period of time and that's only because of the 5 speed.
Another piece of advice is to not over think it. This isn't going to be your daily driver. Does it *really* need AC? 
Ted
I've got to take a second here and honor what Mitch said (above) about enjoying the rigors of keeping an air-cooled engine in its power band. I do find, with the Subaru, that I actually miss downshifting to get up hills, and thinking about what the engine needs on a given stretch of road. The Suby torque curve is so wide and flat it's...just a little...boring.
As to what James said: +2. DIY building is not for the faint of heart (or wallet). But you know that already.
My endorsement of a used pan car + Suby swap is to bring home this point only: At this moment, the price of a turn-key, Subaru-powered IRS Speedster—new or used—is very much out of the $30k ball park, unless you build it yourself.
It's out of the ballpark if he does.
As an aside, if this hobby had cost $30K to get into back in the day, I'd have moved elsewhere. I'd probably be retired by now, since I wouldn't have built a house around a Bendpak XPR-10S lift.
James: Your build is drop-dead gorgeous!
Stan, I'm with you. My garage(to be built down south when we move) will feature the same lift. We are planning a 2 car attached to the house for the daily drivers, and a separate shop with a gardening wing for Michelle and a small metal shop for me plus at least a 4 car workshop.
No matter what you plan to build for a shop, it will not be big enough... 32 x 32)minimum
Danny i once lived in an area where the guy retired and built a house with a two car front attached looking garage ... once you got into the garage it went back for a total of 6 car
but from the street only two could be seen as he had landscaped the aide to be hidden
Keep the thread going guys As for my budget, it was a number I pulled out of the air. My guess is I'll be 30-50k...40 would be a great number...
At the end of the day, you’ll buy a turn key Beck :-)
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Stan Galat posted:As an aside, if this hobby had cost $30K to get into back in the day, I'd have moved elsewhere. I'd probably be retired by now, since I wouldn't have built a house around a Bendpak XPR-10S lift.
Now that is Funny. . . and in a couple of ways I can relate to it.
Before anyone gets too upset over what I'm about to say, please understand one thing. At my age I hardly ever think about sex but I think about my VS all the time simply because I love driving it; however, had I realized I'd end up spending well over 40K on the thing before being satisfied with it I'd bought a Beck or something else instead. And lately I've caught myself thinking about buying a lift too because I get dizzy when ever I try sliding under the thing to work on it. Rump Sputter 
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If you can do $40k you should buy my old car.
550 Phil posted:If you can do $40k you should buy my old car.
Uhhhh, after having already spent it before finally being satisfied with the car I should now buy another one? I don't think so. 
If you enjoyed doing your first Speedster the future in this hobby can be ever so slightly addictive :~)
Alan, with your experience I could not agree with you more. Yes this hobby is very addictive and like I said in my first post, I seem to find myself thinking about it all the time. Hardly a week goes by when I don't try to come up with another idea that might make my car even more special.
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Going to my first 356 event next weekend on Fathers day. PCA in CT has an event and 356 is the spotlight. We'll see how that goes
@Frank Zabski, Milford CT. Nice I hope they don’t give you the cold shoulder.
@calmotion ya, I'm not to worried. Not going to say anything about what I am doing, looking for, etc. Just gonna kiss their a$$ and make them feel important (because they are . Funny you mention this, I dealt with the exact same thing in the Cobra World, there were all kinds of kinds as they say. Since I was really interested in original unrestored Cobra's I could get information off of I was constantly dealing with secretive people, secret "groups" etc. and some did not like replica guys at all and would not help me. In fairness, most were very helpful and supportive. There were the guys that knew if they did not buy their car 20-30 years ago and would not be able to afford it now were the cool ones. They dbags who had a ton of money and had multiple millions of dollars in cars where generally the hard ones to crack. Ironically, I ran into this situation with a contact i have in CT who I knew had (has) a 356 coupe but will not show it to me 
I also got another email from another guy who said he guards his collection and most guys like him will do the same. I get it but man this hobby is going in the crapper. For most middle class/upper middle class people the real thing is out of realty but the fever for the cars is there - so the replica world we live in. I'm 50 and very few if any of my friends have cars or are interested enough to ever buy anything. The younger crowd, forget about it.
For the middle class enthusiast, the Cobra and Speedster crowd has it easy. Lots of readily availabe kit / reporoduction options available. The vintage Ferrari and long nose jag options are limited and wildly expensive. I love the originals of all examples built, but wouldn't say the hobby has gone to crap because originals are too expensive.
428 - your cobra looks identical to the original owned by Canepa up here in Scotts Valley. His is said to be one of the last originals built. I have some photos someplace. You have a beautiful car. Get a speedster and make it just as nice.
@Frank Zabski, Milford CT.- It sound like you've got it figured out, (it's Frank isn't it?).
TRP posted:
Dont ask about gear ratios. Ever.
Of all people! Why don't you just put a stake through my heart?
TRP posted:
Another piece of advice is to not over think it. This isn't going to be your daily driver.
Does it *really* need AC?
Now that I agree with. The whole idea is to be one with the road, and get back to the motoring experience. The wind in your hair (I know, for a lot of us it's over our scalp), listening to the engine's song, feeling the car lean into the corner; that's what these cars are about. Every modern convenience/technology improvement takes you that little bit more away from it. Next thing some of you poopieheads will be asking about (ugghhh!) automatics... Al
@TRP was out in your neighborhood. Help a friend build an addition nice drive.
@ALB @Frank Zabski, Milford CT. Alb it does sound like 428 has it figured out. He will for sure have a better time in those outings. Ignore the haters and enjoy the sound of the machine that create the music ion your ears 👍❤️
@TRP you missed my point or I was not direct. My issue is not with the high end cars making the hobby crap, I get it, supply/demand and the biggest wallet gets it. I have no problem with that although certainly I'd love to be able to own a CSX or original steel 356 speedster. Not in the cards for me this life.
My point was that the people with the great collections of cars are not open to letting real enthusiast enjoy them or let them know what they have in their barn.
Gotcha. Understood. I think we are both out priced. I see your point about the inherent snobbery.
Rich people too often be just like that about everything.