My Chesil speedster build

Giday, Eugene. The distance between the rear frame rails on the body of your car might indicate what alternative engine might be suitable without frame mods. For instance, my older pan based IM has 29" distance athwartship in the engine compartment between the frame rails. An EJ22 Soob is 28" wide and an EJ25 is about 31" wide if I recall. My solution was to build up a Frankenmotor which is just a 25 with 22 heads. I don't know the width of the EJ20.

Re: the tranny....yes and yes. I ran many thousands of miles with a bone stock 1967 VW tranny while testing my engine conversion. In the final iteration of my engine I had the VW tranny rebuilt and strengthened, kept the standard gear ratios but dropped the ring and pinion down to 3.44:1 and it suits me just fine. But, yes...a Subaru Gears tranny would be nice. Only more $$$ and then you have to figure out how to mount it. I did install a 3rd "engine mount" at the aft end of the engine. 

I have only one rad and it's out of a Saab 9000 and it's mounted up front almost horizontal fastened to the bumper brackets. My conversion is a home brew deal and its not up to the standards of a professional job, but it works fine. Here's a coolant diagram of my setup and also one picture of the engine itself. 

Welcome to the Madness, Eugene!

My opinion on engine selection may be a little different than others.  I have a built 1776 with some upgrades and dual ICTs.  I have had larger air cooled  engines and wanted to go a different direction.  I feel I have a solid, reliable engine that is a little closer to authentic and I love air cooled engines.  It is not a monster, but is quick enough to be fun.  I considered a Subaru engine briefly and may get interested in the future, but I love my 1776.  

I used a standard width, aftermarket, ball joint beam with adjusters.  Also, I’m running standard ball joint spindles with wide five, CB disc brakes.  With the adjusters lowered the car sits where I want and still has a little more adjustment.  Also, I removed all the small leaf springs from the top beam.  Make sure you get a beam with adjusters that can be lowered, not an off-road beam that is set up to be raised, it matters on some beams. My front track is about where I want, although I wouldn’t mind if it was an inch or so wider.  A narrowed beam would be too narrow in my opinion. 

My car is a CMC sitting on a 70 IRS pan.  I have CB wide five discs in front and 1967 wide five drums in the rear.  Also have adjustable spring plates on the rear for fine adjustment.  The car sits at about a stock height.  During the build I sat the body on the pan, installed trans and added 250 lbs weight for engine.  Using this set up I adjusted the suspension for my desired ride height.  Had to drop a few splines on rear torsion bars, but don’t know  exactly how many because I had removed the bars for resto and didn’t have a good starting point. Hope this helps.  

James

No need for a narrowed front beam - a std beam with 2 (or even 1) welded in AVIS adjusters will give you ability to adjust the front ride height --- unless you are looking to fit 7 or 8" rims on the front.  Dropped spindles will give you a 2" drop (often too much or too little) - they also increase the front wheel track (width) 1- 1 1/2".  There is room under front fenders to allow for that though.  Depending on wheel bolt/offset, tire size and brake type that also affects front track width - but still should fit. I had to add 1/2" spacers to clear front calipers and still have room for even a wider spacer.

In Australia - I'd guess Subaru parts are more available/less expensive than VW?  I'd go with the EJ20 engine (or EJ22) and a Subaru 5 speed.  All the adapters to mount are available - and it seems there is even greater interest in Australia than in US so I'd think cost would be less there.

Eugene... your sitting near Aussie land so it is a no brainer there to go full subie for parts, costs and repairs and maintenance.  

Hi guys

Thanks for the replies, I'll check the distance between the frame when the body gets here in a couple of months!

One of my Aussie mates who races a beetle suggested the suby motor as I'm not building an original 356, so why not have some fun!

Lots to think about....

Cheers

Welcome to the Madness Eugene!

"as I'm not building an original 356, so why not have some fun!"

That right there is a great attitude to take when building a replica Speedster; do what you want and don't worry about what anybody else thinks, as most people who look at your car won't know (or care) about the details, and the odd fusspot who gets his knickers in a knot over the non-original this or that doesn't matter anyway. With that said...

As already mentioned, there's no need to go to the trouble of narrowing a beam, as there's lots of room for all but the biggest rim/tire combos up front. Narrowed beams also don't handle as well, so in a car that will be driven a lot (with emphasis on enjoying the "driving" part) it just seems the wrong way to go. Lowering the front via adjusters keeps the front track stock width so adding 5x205mm bolt pattern disc brakes (which do add 1/2-3/4" per side) won't push out the wheels too far. Someone chime in, please, if he/she has gone with lowered spindles and wide 5 discs- what size rim and tire did you use?

Depending how low you go the ride may be a little rougher (the suspension may bottom out more often), you will probably need shorter shock absorbers, 2 caster shims (don't forget to buy the longer bolts as well!) behind each side of the bottom beam may be necessary for safe highways speeds instead of 1, and more angle on the tie rods does create more bump steer (which can be somewhat mitigated by flipping tie rod ends, but it's more work and I don't know if you'll get back to stock angles).

Lowered spindles have the advantage of getting the final ride height closer (and then you can fine tune with the beam adjusters if you welded them in) so the tie rod angles don't change as much, the caster change is less (may only need 1 shim) and stock length shocks will most likely work. They do add 1/2 or 5/8" width to each side, but Karmann Ghia discs (which aren't any wider than drums) drilled to 5x130mm Porsche wheel pattern, 15x6" Fuchs wheels with 195/55's fit under the front of my car. Will it work with wide 5 discs, 5 1/2 or 6" rims and 175 or 185 tires- I don't know. Anybody? 

Wide 5 discs (if you go with them) will add width to the rear track as well, but the '66 trans has the shorter axles and tubes (if it's original) so you'll have the most leeway in what will fit for wheels and tires. Beefing the trans so it will stand up to the increased power (VW or Subie) will be essential to it's long term survival, and a longer ring & pinion (4.125 or 3.88) may be a good idea at this time. Going with the Subaru trans nets you a 5th gear (yayyy!!!!) but means irs is the only option. Speedsters are known for having minimal tire room in the back, but the arms can be narrowed (will require shorter axles) and then wider tires to match the front are a possibility.

I know a little bit about increasing power and displacement with the aircooled type 1 engine but know nothing about Subie power, so if the dark side you go help I can not.

Yoda out (for now, but back you know I will be!)

Your swing axle VW trans will work fine up to 200 horsepower if you beef it up in the normal way. You'll be getting an aftermarket side cover, hardened keys, welded 3rd and 4th hubs, steel forks and a "superdiff" differential, which is basically a second set of spider gears to spread the torque load. You will mount this to the chassis with Rhino Mounts, which are unfortunately bright yellow but most people will never see them. You will also install a mid-mount "snubber" at least to keep everything in place. If you're a back roads cruiser you'll want the 3.88 R&P. If you want to go long distances on the highway, the 3.44 R&P. Erco gears are fine and I think they cost a bit less than the Weddles. All this will set you back about 1/4 the cost of the Subaru Gears setup and will bolt right in where it's supposed to go. 

You want that Subaru trans, you're in for some engineering.

The EJ20 will fit nice. You'll need a KEP adaptor and, like Stroud says, a Saab radiator. Then its down to some 1.5-inch pipe or tubing. He used aluminum spars from a hang glider. I used aluminized exhaust pipe. It all works. You'll probably flip the coolant manifold to make an easier run for the coolant lines. Use a stock, Subaru thermostat. If you want to stance it low, you'll want a shortened oil pan. Engine management is not that hard, but the wiring and such will take time or money—probably both. All said and done, it's very unlikely a Suby will come in cheaper than a mild 1776.

The Suby will be cheaper to run and probably more reliable once it's dialed-in. But you'll pay a weight penalty and you'll lose storage space under the bonnet. If you want to carry a spare tire you're going to have to work carefully. 

A small Type 1 will sound, work and look more like it's supposed to. You'll give up a few horsepower but it doesn't take much to make these cars go. 

Good luck with your build and please post your progress here.

Remember that a Subaru transaxle is designed to be behind the engine, not it front of it, so you might have to swap the R&P (if that's possible) to avoid 5 reverse and 1 forward gear.  Oh, and wouldn't the shift pattern be off as well?

Yeah there are kits available in AUS that reverse the pinion and crown wheel, plus all the other mountings etc. So I have some thinking to do! i'll start with trying to see how much I can get a donor 2.2 or 2.5 suby for.... The shift pattern will be ok as the Suby reverse is right n down so in a bettle it would be left and up which I think is the same as a vw?

Hi guys

After some trawling on the net for information and costs, I'm gunna fit a suby motor and box! The reason for this is that by the time I either strengthen and rebuild the VW box and the suby adapter plate / flywheel it would be the same as fitting the suby running gear..... Finally as I don't have a VW motor it would cost more.... Things are quite expensive in NZ or to import. So I'm I looking around for a suitable complete car as a donor...

I'll let you know how I get on, thanks for the help 😀

Cool. My advice: keep the donor Subaru until the motor is running right in the Speedster. 

Yeah I also found a thread that may help with the ECU wiring etc. I've been a suby owner for over 10yrs so should be ok!

Yeah, you will find that all the sensors need to work in order for the ECU to work properly, unless your donor is old enough (prior to 2009, I believe).

My car is 100% Subaru from the motor to the hubs, including ABS & traction control.

Things you might not think of can cause gremlins, like Oxygen sensors giving bad readings due to modified exhaust.

Eugene:  You could also try emailing Carey Hines at Beck Speedsters and ask what they use when they install a Suby engine.  Seems to me they use a Subaru ECU but with a custom chipset, but they may have gone to an aftermarket ECU for ease of use.  

Gordon

EugeneB posted:

Yeah I also found a thread that may help with the ECU wiring etc. I've been a suby owner for over 10yrs so should be ok!

There's a lad in Canada that will sell you a properly modified Soob harness for about $600....not sure if that was CAD or USD. Can't make the link work here but you could google search subaruvanagon tom shiels. 

http://www.subaruvanagon.com  this is the link David

I used that guy. He's a proper gent & walked me through the install—including, when I contacted him for about the fourth time when the car wouldn't start, asking the crucial question, "did you put in the XXXXXX?"  I, of course, did not even know what the XXXXXX was (so much so that I've since forgotten the name of the actual component). So he told me where to find it on the donor car, which I had brilliantly not yet scrapped, and I dug it out, plugged it in and vrooom.

$600 or so I'd spend again in a heartbeat, rather than trying to splice out my own ECU.

Thanks

The link I found was

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=136053

It's quite comprehensive!

The 1st step will be to make sure what motor will fit width ways when I get the bodyshell in about a month...

Rule of thumb is the SOHC motors will fit anything, but the DOHC, being a little wider, might not fit a pan-based Speedster.