i was told people on here can help in business dealings with SAS & steve lawing...please direct me to people that can help?

Original Post

The only person I'd be contacting to help with SAS would be the Attorney General in Tennessee. If you put money on a car I'd get it back. You're more likely to get your money back than a completed vehicle. 

Last edited by Robert M

thanx robert...i will take that advice...i am told i'm not alone...i'm new to this forum...if there are others with relevant info on this subject...maybe you and the folks can steer them my way?  much appreciate 

JNCSPYDER;

 Also you can search on the site using the magnifying icon above. Type in SAS and that will give you several hits.

I second Robert's motion. Contact the Attorney General of Tenn.

 

 

Last edited by Art

What Robert said X2! As I understand, that guy hasn't actually produced a car in a while (couple years?). The line up is long (there are people who've been waiting 6? 7 years?). You're dealing with a first class con artist, you'll never see a car, and the best course of action is threatening legal action if he doens't return your deposit. Don't let him convince you that he'll start your car "right away" (because he won't!), and once you get your money back, never talk to the guy again. Al

They actually pay for the ad here (ad appears in the right hand column every so often).  Most members, many of who are also donating members, aren't happy about the ad.  Immediately file with the State's Attorney General's Office.  If you have means hire a lawyer.  I'm sure others bilked and are members here will support the effort.

The few that actually were delivered cars are happy with their SAS and have defended the Marque but not the man.  

well panhandle bob...i have placed a deposit...a car iv'e always wanted...iv'e been waiting and am getting freaked out by some things i've been reading...really hope i'm not a complete fool...can you help?

jncspyder posted:

well panhandle bob...i have placed a deposit...a car iv'e always wanted...iv'e been waiting and am getting freaked out by some things i've been reading...really hope i'm not a complete fool...can you help?

When did you send a deposit?

What delivery timing were you given?

What did you order?

Did you visit SAS (before sending money) or just send money?

What do you have in writing from SAS?

What reserach did you do on the company, before sending money?

You keep asking for help, what kind of help are you looking for?

Last edited by Roy Simpson, FF Plastic Porsche

well roy..not sure i should give all details..but what the hell...coming up on three yrs....was told 18 to 24 mths for speedster model...tenn was along way to go sooo i just sent a cashers ck and i do have a written contract...i'm not entirely a fool...i guess i know what to do..just gotta do it...ask for a car SOON or my deposit back...unless i can get free legal assistance i guess i'm just venting to those who know on this forum

I'm sorry for you, man. But the thing is-- you're not going to get a car, so you'll need to get a lawyer or decide to let it go.

Jim Kelly has posted at length regarding the pyramid scheme that is SAW/SAS. You really do want to pursue legal action, for the good of everyone.

Regarding the ad, etc, that's a matter for the site administrator. His name is Theron. 

Last edited by Stan Galat

http://sasowners.freeforums.org/

Try that link, it should take you to a forum of people who are waiting for cars. I couldn't double check it because it wouldn't open on my phone. Anyway, it is a group of people waiting for cars. There are a few dozen on there but very few comments anymore. I think the guy that has been waiting the longest has been on the list more than 11 years. He actually ordered a '32 Ford when SAS was building those but after SAS stopped building those he opted for a 356 but he's still waiting. 

Good luck. 

jncspyder posted:

well roy..not sure i should give all details..but what the hell...coming up on three yrs....was told 18 to 24 mths for speedster model...tenn was along way to go sooo i just sent a cashers ck and i do have a written contract...i'm not entirely a fool...i guess i know what to do..just gotta do it...ask for a car SOON or my deposit back...unless i can get free legal assistance i guess i'm just venting to those who know on this forum

As Stan said (and I did before), he'll never build you a car so dont' let him talk you into thinking he'll produce, as it will just draw the whole thing out even longer. Take immediate steps to get your money back. Thinking that after all this time he'll build you a car is a pipe dream. Take immediate steps to get your money back.

Robert and I had dinner with Jim Kelly a month or so ago.   He explained that the only real hope of getting anything back from SAS is just hanging on.  If the people on the list push too hard, he will just declare bankruptcy and then they get nothing.  They are between a rock and a hard place and unfortunately didn't find the SOC until it was too late.

I still agree that he needs to contact the Attorney General of Tenn.

thanx for the link robert & troy...very depressing...really hate my self for being dooped it seems..i'll weigh my options and hang in there

thanx for that advice troy....if you could, perhaps you could point him my way...he sounds like the guy i really need to chat with which is why i was pointed to this forum...i'd be grateful for the help

When someone continues to defraud people with impunity the Attorney General has to step in and stop this behaviour. 

you would think...makes one wonder why if there is this big of problem with multiple complaints...why the dragging of the AG's feet?...since when has government done the right thing in many instances.....

JNC;

If like California, the AG is an elected official,  he/she is not going to lose many votes over this,  with probably  98% of the complaints coming from out of state. 

But...yours could be the one the straw that breaks the camels back.

A real bummer, best of luck to you.

 

Last edited by Art

Maybe because they are afraid that if they go to the AG they'll never get anything except possibly the satisfaction of seeing him prosecution or fined or something.

Gordon already sent him an alert, but I'll try sending him a text message.  However, he lives in Fiji most of the year and I believe he is there now. 

thanx gordon & troy...understood and grateful for assistance...i'll be glad to forward my contact info when called upon to do so

I bought a CMC back in '88.  This was before the internet so no real warnings on them out there.  Unlike others, I did get all my parts (and dupes on a couple).  It took many phone calls and letters. It wasn't until 1992 that the FL States Attorney closed George Levin's large business. Follow-on Auto Resolutions got parts and $ to like 900 buyers.  Unfortunately, closure occurred again with Street Beasts a few years later in 1999. SAS isn't just about Tenn - there is wire and mail fraud involved (in this case, restitution was $2.5 million).

Does this sound familiar?

The case stated that, over a period of eleven years, Classic Motor Carriages defrauded people by "knowingly and willfully" making "false and misleading statements, representations, and promises" in regard to the "quality of the kit car purchased, the delivery time to the customer and the required assembly time." In addition, "false and fraudulent representations" were made to obtain deposits from prospective customers. Finally, the case stated that Classic Motor Carriages induced its customers to pay for kit cars, and then "failed to provide the automotive parts necessary for complete assembly."

http://www.crankshaftcoalition...ts_fraud_controversy

I'd think closing SAS completely would result in selling off tools, any assets he might have, stash of parts and freezing bank accounts which probably are long spent.  It would keep others from following in your steps.  It would be long overdue and remove another wart on the replica/kit car community. New start replica companies suffer unfairly from these bad apples.

Image result for classic motor carriages miami florida law suit

Oh boy, bashing SAS again.  Trouble is, I am so sick and tired of this, I can't get excited anymore.  Is this man STILL duping folks out of hard earned cash?  Amazing.  It's all been said many times before.  I feel bad for JNC.  He needs to come to Carlisle, and speak to the Beck Special Edition folks, Henry from IM, or go visit Vintage in sunny SoCal.

And why we as a society continue to subsidize these evil doings by posting SAS ads is beyond me.  It is a disgrace, I don't care how at-arms-length Theron thinks he is.

Hi JNC,

Sorry to hear of your business dealings with SAS.  I get contacted periodically from others on the infamous SAS list that are seeking advice about the likelihood of ever getting a car from Steve Lawing.  As you know, the situation looks bleak.  If he is completing cars, he is not delivering them to those at the front of the list.

A former user of this forum, who still supports SAS and owns a silver SAS Speedster, has told others on the SAS forum that Lawing is still very much in business, working like a dog, everything is rosy, yada, yada.  Meanwhile, there has been one car delivered since mine was finished in Aug. 2013.  Not very promising, eh?  No one really knows how many buyers have put deposits on cars, or how many cars are being completed.  If cars are being built, they are NOT being delivered to the poor guys who have been waiting as long as 14, yes 14 years.  The top three on the list put down deposits in 2003 and 2007.  Man, is this a great country or what?

You can send me a private email if you want to discuss additional options.  Best of luck in whatever you decide.

Hey Jim what can this list do legally to share the story, could we not at least list under the makers headers another SAS header which says "SAS Reputation NOTES"  which leads to a story board of people who write their stories of how they have been ripped off .  We have to do our part to Inform new guys that this list exists as well. 

IaM-Ray posted:

Hey Jim what can this list do legally to share the story,

I think we are already doing it.....

Hi Ray,

I have offered suggestions to those on the SAS list, but the decision to make a formal complaint to law enforcement or to hire private counsel to pursue damages has to remain with them.  There are pros and cons of both approaches.  After all, the guys in the queue are the ones with money to lose.  I was in the same predicament prior to getting my car.  

On one hand, you want to make the guy who took your money suffer, but, on the other hand, if there is even a tiny chance of actually getting your car, you don't want to upset the tenuous financial balance of the "company" by calling the cops, since this guy knows how to scam the system.  I don't know the answer, but, since I have my car, such as it is, it's a rhetorical question only for me.  The final answer will need to come from those whose ox has been gorged.

As someone on the SAS queue who held (still holds) one of the longest outstanding contracts (of those publicly known on the SAS forum), I experienced the years of promises, all the ups and downs, and the hopes and heartache of dealing with Steve.  When I first bought in, Steve was still turning out cars and so it was acceptable to consider the wait and easier to swallow his stories and excuses.  Each completed car brought me one step closer.  I think this is what kept all of us in the queue so patient.  Those ahead of us were being rewarded.  

But things took a turn for the worse just as I appeared to be in position to get my car sooner than later.  As I rose to the top of the queue (as we on the forum had pieced it together), all deliveries seemed to grind to a halt.  I decided that despite my long wait, I could wait no longer.  My conversations with Steve had always been pleasant over the years but I had had enough.  I asked for a refund and he asked for time to sell my contract.  I again waited patiently.  When too much time passed, and I could not get any response from Steve, I hired an attorney to assist me.  This did bring a response from Steve.  He has returned the lion's of my money and has a bit more time to sell the contract before he will have to return the rest.  We shall see but I am determined to get all my deposit back.

Civil actions may result in a judgment but that doesn't mean one will get paid. Criminal actions, if successful, will pretty much guarantee all will lose.  People on the forum are not stupid but, like me, are caught in a no win situation.  We want Steve to make cars because we bought into his engineering concepts.  We accepted his empty promises because each new build got us closer.  I know there are others in my situation who are through with years of waiting.  I hope they can get repaid even to the extent I have been thus far.  My one selfish concern is that in having to make good on a flood of refunds, Steve will run out of money to pay everyone back and no one will get reimbursed fully.  Including me.  I have offered my contract to anyone who holds a much lower spot.  Knowing that I am at the top of the published queue might give someone a shot at a car with a much shorter wait.  For what it is worth, so far I have not had anyone below me step up to take over my contract.

What next?  I am seriously considering buying one of the used IMs for sale.  Henry has been a helpful guide.  But the whole experience has stolen some joy from me and brought on a few regrets that make me gun shy.  Will I even enjoy a replica now, so may years later?  People age and change.  Priorities shift.  The money is very important but it is the least of it.  Steve took away my fantasy and the pleasure I expected to have and getting my money back can't repair that.  Perhaps actually owning a replica will.  There is a wise saying:  Forgiveness is giving up all hope of a better past.  My situation is what it is.  I am coming into acceptance and reminding myself of all the wonderful things that have happened in my life over those years that have had nothing to do with money or a car.  

Didn't know that I would share so much.  Thanks all for being patient enough to read this.  

SALTCREEK, if you can regenerate some enthusiasm for a replica I recommend joining us in Carlisle and meeting with Henry Riesner (IM) and Carey Hines (Beck).  You can trust what they say regarding quality, engineering, support, and delivery.  Same advice goes for you, JNCSPYDER.

Last edited by Lane Anderson

Wouldn't it be great if Steve could just step aside and "sell" the queue to someone for -5 percent? He's proven there's a market, and the product is viable as an engineering exercise. The only two problems, in my estimation, are

1. He priced the cars too low for what they are (when they are), and 

2. He can't actually build them.

Two is related to 1., I think, but a really good mediator, plus the AG, could probably make something almost OK out of this.

Get the buyers in a room, have them come up with a figure. Some just want out. they get their deposits back with no interest—or some percentage of same, depending on what's possible. Some want a car, so negotiate a figure that's doable for that. They'll have to pay more than they contracted because, again, it is impossible to build these for what Lawing promised. Some guys will be OK with that. 

Now this is the hard part: find a skilled mechanic and shop-runner, not a salesman, who can make the cars. Put him with that second group of people. 

Lawing pays that guy some figure (probably in the mid 5s) to get him started, and in return the AG agrees not to prosecute him criminally.

Lawing agrees to pay the deposit-wanters some negotiated amount out of his personal assets. Not the business assets, since those are spoken for by the new guy and the remaining queue.

Lawing goes away. Files a Chapter 7, whatever. AG asks the federal judge to put a bulldog BK trustee on Lawing to prevent fraud.

AG works with new guy and TN Economic Development people to get some capital to the new guy on reasonable terms. Small beans. Like a million bucks.

New guy hires three young can-do dudes and builds cars and good will. Ends up with a viable business.

This is no easy thing, starting with finding the guy who wants the business and can actually do it. But there are many potential variants (deposit-wanters take a percentage ownership of the new business in lieu of cash, say) that could make for a deal.

A business person in this situation has no incentive to do anything differently. This money making machine depends on the mystique of someday taking deliver of a bespoke auto at a seemingly affordable price. This method has proven that it drives potential buyers to plunk down cash for the opportunity to wait in line.  He has to do very little to keep this operation running. 

I have no foindation in law. Yet I am pretty sure his ability to avoid prosecution depends on the fact that he maintains that he has never had a contract for a due date for any cars. The people on the list entered into this arrangement knowing this and willingly. If this business person changes anything to mitigate that delecate balance the power shifts to the consumer.

This sort of model preys on the human ego and the promise of a great value. Dr. Seuss has a story about the "Star Belly Sneech". Everyone could do well to pick up a copy.

77539881099c77659f89470c62710c4d

The crappy part is we have all fallen for this at some level. Mine? Its the elusive 5 speed.

(Im sure Ive said all of this before...)

Attachments

Images (1)
Last edited by TRP

hello jim kelly...i got your message...i'd like to chat with you since you seem to be  the person  i need that could help my situation   please e-mail me at jamesdynajim@aol.com  then perhaps we talk on the phone....thanx again

Here is the last iteration of the queue, as pieced together by a few folks over on the SAS Owners forum.  This list is from February 2016.

Last February, I bought the car that was delivered to J.... E.... in November 2012.   Since then, a total of 2 cars have been delivered.  One of those was J... K......'s.  So he's averaging 1 car about every 2.5 years.

Hoss (johnny2bolts), Tenessee: delivered 2004
Bill Re : #2 car: passed away and car sold to R.... M..... (raymead)
Ch... Ga.... (guru39), Georgia: contracted December 2004, delivered May 2008
P... Me..... (probins) : contracted June 2006, delivered September 2008
E. Sa....... (): contracted, delivered
No... Sc... (scottnp), Florida: delivered December 2008
M... G..... (mguthrie): delivered before 2009
S.... Pr...... (prishard), Indiana, contracted June 2005, delivered September 2009
S. Te..... (STeele), North Carolina: contracted June 2006, delivered June 2011--5 years
*K. V...... (Cavalho), contracted October 2006 - (spot currently for sale)
D.... W..... (bucky), Hawaii: contracted October 2007, delivered May 2010
C.... O..... (cowings), North Carolina: contracted May 2007, delivered Aug 2011--4.33 years
J..... E..... (East5426), Rhode Island: contracted June 2007, delivered Nov 2012--5.5 years
Er...R.....?, (eromp2000), Washington: contracted October 2007, delivered December 2011
*S.... W....(bby), Maine: contracted Nov 2007
J.... K..... (jkelly)(took Bob R (bobros) spot), Fiji: contracted May 08, delivered Nov. 2013--5.5 years
Davide (.......), Bahrain: contracted June 2008, delivered October 2015
*R. H......( rofo), California: contracted August 2008, passed away, but family still wants car
*D.... M..... (Mangs356), Minnesota, contracted Jan 2002 for Ford, then Nov 2008 for 356
*R.... P...... (rubeiii), North Carolina: contracted January 2009
*B..... S..... (saltcreek), Connecticut: contracted May 2009 (bought Gonzalo spot 10/07)
*E. B...... (edwardbradley), Maryland: contracted May 2009
*D.... M..... (donaldmoretti), Rhode Island: contracted March 2010 (current owner of Bill Re cab)
T... W..... (camaro168) , Indiana: contracted May 2010 (sold spot around 2012)
*MJ (mj80850), Hawaii: contracted March 2011
*T.... R....., (TAR2000), Florida: contracted July 2011
D.... S.... (yessir), Texas: contracted October 2011 (sold spot around July 2013)
*S.... D.... (sdaley): contracted December 2011
*T.... M.... (tommarantz), Massachusetts: contracted January 2012 (spot currently for sale)
*(MooseX), Nevada: contracted April 2012
*S.... (Stefan), California: contracted April 2012
*C.... R.... (Factotum), Kansas: contracted May 2012
*J... K..... (jkuhlow), Arkansas: contracted May 2012 (current owner of J.... E....... car)
*T... O'......: contracted December 2012
*S.... H...... (stuman0407), Texas: contracted March 2013 (bought spot contracted in 2010?)
*S.... H......, Virginia: contracted July 2013 (bough spot from D... S....., contracted October 2011)

 

Last edited by Theron

"D.... (da... ch......, Bahrain: contracted June 2008, delivered October 2015

*R. H....( rofo), California: contracted August 2008, passed away, but family still wants car"

Wow.  Seven years in one case.  Eight and still counting in another.

Last edited by Theron
jncspyder posted:

wow..my name isn't even on the list!!...blood pressure rising!!!!!

Chill for a bit.  SAS didn't put this list together and it's not recent (Feb 2016) anyway.  The folks who did may not have had all of the info.  When did you first sign on?

They pieced together that list based on people posting here, on the SAS Owners Forum and The Samba, so it is not likely complete, and may be inaccurate.

It really is a shame.  My car is a blast to drive, and it is one of the most unique 356 replica's in the world, with a power assisted top, AC, ABS, traction control, cruise control, Suby dependability, mid engine...

 

I don't know what the advertising rates are on the site, but I bet if some of the "regulars" on here would become supporting members that would offset the lost revenue from kicking SAS ads of the forum.

Of course that is a decision for the moderator, but it seems like a good compromise if y'all are really sick of seeing his ads. 

Lane is correct. This is in no way official. This should be read as information gathered / compiled by public record. It is not an official list. 

I have no dog in this fight. The mounting evidence in this situation leads rationally minded folks to encourage legal action. 

Is the fear of losing the depost greater than the guilt of knowingly letting others jump into his Speedster A-ponzi Scheme. (See what I did there?)

 

I just don't get it... I purchased my speedster 5/2011 and did at least a year of research even  before stumbling upon the SOC. I took the 2.5 hr drive to Bremen and spent 1/2 a day with Kevin and Carey. Yes I bought the first car I drove and had 5 great driving seasons to figure out what I wanted.  

What I don't understand is how someone can write a check or wire money without looking someone in the eyes and shaking their hand. Looking at the list there are only a few folks that could not take a short trip to TN. Is Steve a crook and fraud, probably but if people continue giving him money he will not stop, what is his incentive?  I feel for everyone on the list, owning a speedster is more than the car. This is a community where I have found a bunch of guys and gals just as crazy as I am, actually I feel norma. It truly is the only car I have ever owned that just makes me smile every time I look at it.  

As @Stan Galat  told me very early forewarned is forearmed. 

Curious how much people are putting down for a deposit - it must be 50-80%?  Shame when several hopeful owners actually died before the car is delivered!  Is the red one that was on ebay in Phoenix and needed a significant amount of work included in list as built and delivered?  I was actually surprised to see that many actually built but more than that # are unbuilt!  Didn't Hoss (red) and Nolen (silver blue) sell their?  Do we know the new owners.  So no one has contracted since 2013 or they just haven't gotten PO'ed enough yet?  I remeber reading he had like 10 law suits again him in 2010 - was that when he changed the name from SAW to SAS?

I think I remember reading (in a former disgruntled owner's thread) that the initial deposit was 7,000 or 7500, with the same amount at the next step (which I think, the guy not having any evidence of solid progress, paid as well).

Almost everyone on the list will have paid $17 or $18K, depending on the model ordered, an initial deposit of $7K or $8K, followed by the first installment payment of $10K.   It is a violation of privacy for Jethro to publish the list on SOC, since many of those guys (unlike Jethro) have used their full names, and they were not consulted.  The information would be just as effective with screen names only.  

As I have stated in the past, if users of SOC want more info on this subject, go to the SAS owners website: www.sasowners.freeforums.org.

Panhandle Bob posted:

I don't know what the advertising rates are on the site, but I bet if some of the "regulars" on here would become supporting members that would offset the lost revenue from kicking SAS ads of the forum.

Of course that is a decision for the moderator, but it seems like a good compromise if y'all are really sick of seeing his ads. 

There hasn't been SAS ads on this site for a while.  No one seems to have noticed or cared and supporting memberships haven't increased.  My previous points in other SAS threads remain the same, prospective buyers are free to search the internet for SAS information.  These threads come to the top of google searches. 

-=Theron

I hadn't noticed Theron, because I rarely visit the site because I see and respond to all posts via email (unless I'm creating a new post).

Kudos for dropping the SAS ads!
>
>

Theron,  Who else advertises here? (I don't pay attention to that sorry)  I'd gladly increase my monthly nut to cover part of the lost revenue, provided some of the others step up as well...

Jim Kelly posted:

  It is a violation of privacy for Jethro to publish the list on SOC, since many of those guys (unlike Jethro) have used their full names, and they were not consulted.  The information would be just as effective with screen names only. 

I agree Jim.  Jethro I edited out the names of the possible people on the waiting list.  I wouldn't like my name being listed on a public website without my approval.
-=theron

Gordon Nichols posted:

I think that if I were on that list, I would be way beyond Popcorn and be hitting the sauce by now......

A baseball and go hit some one thing else...

Sorry, but I'm still surprised no one has invested in a plane ride and hunted him down. The Law won't make him accountable. Could be very satisfying...

Theron posted:
Panhandle Bob posted:

I don't know what the advertising rates are on the site, but I bet if some of the "regulars" on here would become supporting members that would offset the lost revenue from kicking SAS ads of the forum.

Of course that is a decision for the moderator, but it seems like a good compromise if y'all are really sick of seeing his ads. 

There hasn't been SAS ads on this site for a while.  No one seems to have noticed or cared and supporting memberships haven't increased.  My previous points in other SAS threads remain the same, prospective buyers are free to search the internet for SAS information.  These threads come to the top of google searches. 

-=Theron

Thanks, Theron!

I would still encourage regulars to pony up a few bucks and support the site as a member or through a donation. Just seems fair, but some may not get the pleasure and help from it that I have.

Panhandle Bob;

I agree, the site provides vast amounts of information, camaraderie, and entertainment.

Approx. $.15 per day 

 

Gordon Nichols posted:

Jethro:  Do you now own John Eastman's old car?  That was the only one I've heard of with a power top.....

Yes.   John Eastman sold it to a guy from Arkansas.    He is in the queue, and bought John's car to keep him happy during the wait.   Then, he decided to sell, and I jumped on it.

Last edited by Jethro

I just wish the SOC was not a party to this scam.  Running SAS ads is complicit in the outrage. I think I've said all this before . . .

Ed you are a very creative dreamer.

Salty: I am sure that the dream would rekindle immediately, given a ride in a Speedster, and actually having one. A used IM is usually a fine choice.  If Henry will help, you will be golden.  Advice given for you to come to Carlisle is the very best you can get.  There will be many variations on this theme to see and hear.  There will be ample opp'y to drive some of the cars, and there will be a wealth of experience for you to tap into one-on-one.  It's not too late (I think) for you to get plugged in.

PS: My above posting was run without having read Page Two of the thread.  It was not too long ago that I noticed a SAS ad, so having dumped them is relatively recent.  And I applaud the decision.  And I will be happy to punch the Donate button to show my appreciation.

Kudos to Carey and his fine organization for offering to step up as well. We enter a new era -- the air smells fresher already. 

ALB posted:
Gordon Nichols posted:

I think that if I were on that list, I would be way beyond Popcorn and be hitting the sauce by now......

A baseball and go hit some one thing else...

Sorry, but I'm still surprised no one has invested in a plane ride and hunted him down. The Law won't make him accountable. Could be very satisfying...

Bat. Just re-read my thread and realized I missed the word bat.

Greetings members, my boyfriend has been waiting 11 years for his SAS and it's obvious Steve Lawing has scammed him along with dozens of you fine people. We have heard nothing but excuses from him (on the rare occasion he'd actually respond to us) and he recently said he'll refund the $17,000 (when someone buys his spot). This is totally a ponzi scheme arrangement.

We have contacted the Attorney General of Tennessee and that's how we finally got ahold of Lawing and he called us with this nonsense of eventually paying us back (with no concrete plan or schedule, as he is totally full of ****).

Was this forum where we read of a group of people interested in a class action suit against SAS?

If this is the case we want in. What's the next step?

Has anyone actually received their refund in full? if so, what steps did you take and how long till you received your $?

 

Thank you.

hello...i waited 3 years...but i was lucky to get my $17K refunded...did the same with the AG along with BBB .....wish i had an answer for you....for me...SAS is just a painful memory.....best of luck JNC
jncspyder posted:
hello...i waited 3 years...but i was lucky to get my $17K refunded...did the same with the AG along with BBB .....wish i had an answer for you....for me...SAS is just a painful memory.....best of luck JNC

Hi jnc, glad you got your$ back.

You waited 3yrs for your refund?!Ugh

What was your process? Did you bring him to court? Why do you think he refunded you and not other people? I'm curious of the steps you took. I'd like to give it a try as well.

As stated above, I also reported with the AG, in addition I'll make a report to BBB. Im surprised he responded to you based solely on bbb and a report with the ag.

It appeared to me he doesn't really care what the bbb rates him.

 

Again, so happy you got your $ back!!

(There is hope...)

 

again...i wish i had an answer for you....keep getting in his face....i didn't have to , but try small claims court....i think KARMA will catch up with him in the end....

It's always so sad to see posts from people who found the SOC after making a big down payment on what they thought would be their dream car, only to find out that dream is really a nightmare.

There must be some way of legally stopping this from happening.

Troy Sloan posted:

It's always so sad to see posts from people who found the SOC after making a big down payment on what they thought would be their dream car, only to find out that dream is really a nightmare.

There must be some way of legally stopping this from happening.

It is sad and it has gone on for far too long. If need be we are prepared to take him to court and seize his assets, and perhaps ideally put him behind bars for running a ponzi scheme.

It's been eleven years so I hope it hasn't been too long to proceed in court.

This is technically in my boyfriend's hands as it was his contract, so I can only do so much to pursue this further. I hope he takes the necessary steps...it disgusts me til no end when people lie and fool people like this, let alone someone I care about. If we were closer I'd be storming his door every goddamn day.

 

He's awful. And not just a bad businessman  I believe he's well aware of how things are going and he is just fine with it...He's a morally bankrupt person and if I have anything to do with it he'll be financially bankrupt as well.

Thank you.

I'm going to call him later today.

And again tomorrow.

And the next day.

And the day after...

 

But hopefully with what I say today this can all resolve itself soon.

I hired a local attorney who sent a couple of letters to Steve, which got him to respond and refund $17,000. But noted: the attorney did not recommend suing as there have been other judgments against Steve and he has not paid them. In other words, you might win but still not get paid and be behind others who are waiting. Criminal action would take him out of business and you would not be paid but you would have justice, if you win and if the DA would even take a case like this. Good luck!

saltcreek posted:

I hired a local attorney who sent a couple of letters to Steve, which got him to respond and refund $17,000. But noted: the attorney did not recommend suing as there have been other judgments against Steve and he has not paid them. In other words, you might win but still not get paid and be behind others who are waiting. Criminal action would take him out of business and you would not be paid but you would have justice, if you win and if the DA would even take a case like this. Good luck!

Thank you so much for your reply & the others here who responded so promptly. <3

 

I'm going to share this with my boyfriend tonight and we will follow these steps in hopes of a similar outcome.

 

Lawing is many things..a liar, a scam artist, a bad business man and a procrastinator to name a few...but one thing I don't peg him as is a mushroom farmer...And last I checked we're not mushrooms...And yet, he feeds us nothing but bullshit and keeps us in the dark.

Well Steve "Lying" Lawing has another thing coming!

 

Shame a magazine like Kit Car is no longer around with at least capability of publishing Letters to the Editor.  Maybe RCN (ReINCARnation) ezine would accept a damming letter warning people of his business practices.  Small claims courts usually have like $5k limits.  Seems funny but maybe Judge Judy (or one of the others) would take it on?  You'd at least get a video for your $. If there are 20 people in queue and each had $10k+ at stake - a lawyer might take a group suit on for $1k or 20K total plus 1/3 of any settlement.  Maybe a Go Fund Me page with car enthusiast donating - it would indeed get publicity and a couple might get $ before he is forced into bankruptcy. The key is to put him out of business on preying on others.

CMC was closed down by FL State Attorney General's Office in 1994 (but took years more).  They were a bigger company ($20m in sales and $1m in inventory).  I recall over 400 complaints (article says hundreds) of incomplete cars delivered.  Believe all got at least majority of parts for building a car.  I'll research records on CMC. CMC was shut down and FL force him to create a new company to get missing parts to all - called Auto Resolutions Inc/LTD (?)

https://fiberclassics.org/classic-motor-carriages/

This has some good source note-

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_Motor_Carriages

 

 

saltcreek posted:

Stephen H. “Bunky” Byrd out of Knoxville was my attorney. Bunkybyrd@gmail.com

Bunky Byrd! Love the name! I'll pass on this info. Thank you! And thanks to everyone else who responded.

Ps: Might get confusing as my boyfriend's name is Steven, sas is named Steven and the lawyer is named Stephen! Lol

Last edited by jenzbenz207

I just emailed him an intro to our issue...see what he thinks and what he'll charge. I'll def keep this forum in the loop! (It might be a few years but yall know how it is!)

Jethro posted:

Here is the last iteration of the queue, as pieced together by a few folks over on the SAS Owners forum.  This list is from February 2016.

Last February, I bought the car that was delivered to J.... E.... in November 2012.   Since then, a total of 2 cars have been delivered.  One of those was J... K......'s.  So he's averaging 1 car about every 2.5 years.

Hoss (johnny2bolts), Tenessee: delivered 2004
Bill Re : #2 car: passed away and car sold to R.... M..... (raymead)
Ch... Ga.... (guru39), Georgia: contracted December 2004, delivered May 2008
P... Me..... (probins) : contracted June 2006, delivered September 2008
E. Sa....... (): contracted, delivered
No... Sc... (scottnp), Florida: delivered December 2008
M... G..... (mguthrie): delivered before 2009
S.... Pr...... (prishard), Indiana, contracted June 2005, delivered September 2009
S. Te..... (STeele), North Carolina: contracted June 2006, delivered June 2011--5 years
*K. V...... (Cavalho), contracted October 2006 - (spot currently for sale)
D.... W..... (bucky), Hawaii: contracted October 2007, delivered May 2010
C.... O..... (cowings), North Carolina: contracted May 2007, delivered Aug 2011--4.33 years
J..... E..... (East5426), Rhode Island: contracted June 2007, delivered Nov 2012--5.5 years
Er...R.....?, (eromp2000), Washington: contracted October 2007, delivered December 2011
*S.... W....(bby), Maine: contracted Nov 2007
J.... K..... (jkelly)(took Bob R (bobros) spot), Fiji: contracted May 08, delivered Nov. 2013--5.5 years
Davide (.......), Bahrain: contracted June 2008, delivered October 2015
*R. H......( rofo), California: contracted August 2008, passed away, but family still wants car
*D.... M..... (Mangs356), Minnesota, contracted Jan 2002 for Ford, then Nov 2008 for 356
*R.... P...... (rubeiii), North Carolina: contracted January 2009
*B..... S..... (saltcreek), Connecticut: contracted May 2009 (bought Gonzalo spot 10/07)
*E. B...... (edwardbradley), Maryland: contracted May 2009
*D.... M..... (donaldmoretti), Rhode Island: contracted March 2010 (current owner of Bill Re cab)
T... W..... (camaro168) , Indiana: contracted May 2010 (sold spot around 2012)
*MJ (mj80850), Hawaii: contracted March 2011
*T.... R....., (TAR2000), Florida: contracted July 2011
D.... S.... (yessir), Texas: contracted October 2011 (sold spot around July 2013)
*S.... D.... (sdaley): contracted December 2011
*T.... M.... (tommarantz), Massachusetts: contracted January 2012 (spot currently for sale)
*(MooseX), Nevada: contracted April 2012
*S.... (Stefan), California: contracted April 2012
*C.... R.... (Factotum), Kansas: contracted May 2012
*J... K..... (jkuhlow), Arkansas: contracted May 2012 (current owner of J.... E....... car)
*T... O'......: contracted December 2012
*S.... H...... (stuman0407), Texas: contracted March 2013 (bought spot contracted in 2010?)
*S.... H......, Virginia: contracted July 2013 (bough spot from D... S....., contracted October 2011)

 

In case anyone is interested...My boyfriend is *S....W (bby), Maine 2007.

Two people were bumped up and "bought a spot" & therefore got their cars, and before he did despite originally being after him on the list...according to this list, SAS apparently stopped turning out cars just as he signed up. But this does not reflect a true list of people who gave him $ and don't have access or knowledge of this forum.

 

Anyway, just in case you guys were wondering where the "list" stands.

 

I am an attorney and classic car enthusiast in Knoxville, Tennessee that has successfully represented clients against Steve Lawing.  My clients have received their deposits back. 

If interested, please contact me at:

Stephen H. Byrd, Attorney at Law

9051 Executive Park Drive

Suite 200

Knoxville, Tennessee 37923

www.StephenHByrd.com

BunkyByrd@gmail.com

865-250-1968

Hoping we have a good outcome, Mr. Byrd!

Looking forward to resolving this matter with your assistance and perhaps you can help others as well.

Good luck to all!

 

Last edited by jenzbenz207
Stephen H. Byrd, Attorney at Law posted:

I am an attorney and classic car enthusiast in Knoxville, Tennessee that has successfully represented clients against Steve Lawing.  My clients have received their deposits back. 

If interested, please contact me at:

Stephen H. Byrd, Attorney at Law

9051 Executive Park Drive

Suite 200

Knoxville, Tennessee 37923

www.StephenHByrd.com

BunkyByrd@gmail.com

865-250-1968

WOW!  That's really encouraging !!! @Jim Kelly

Last edited by Troy Sloan

This link was sent to me by a fellow-SOCer and a real friend. He understands my on-going plight with another builder, John Steele and his JPS-related businesses. My matter is personal and my education is not complete. When the time is right, I hope to help both those who are considering a custom build, and those who have pending issues. You might come here for technical matters such as tire pressures and head work so why not matters regarding the building process? I have two general points to make at this time.

1.There are many many fine people here who have helped and will help. I have known of folks traveling and assembling at someone's garage just to help a person in need (and consume an adult beverage or two..ha). Who does that? Good people do. So don't let the bottom-feeders prevail and lead you to think that all is bad. 

2.Do not get lazy and give up on your plight for justice. Truth is, you may be in a situation because you got lazy or not done your homework. Maybe you failed to write a good contract or use your common sense when working out details with a builder. But, as my Dad once said, "Right is right if nobody does it; and Wrong is wrong if everybody does it." If you have been wronged, pursue EVERY avenue available. You owe it to yourself and others. Start with Federal and work down to the State(s) and local levels. Contact them all. Let each person know you will be referencing your complaint with the others. It helps when they know someone else is watching their actions. Also do not underestimate the power of your vote. Things tend to get done during election years. And foremost, realize that legal actions are a last resort. Low cost letter-writing may produce results, but much of any possible settlements will end up in someone else's pocket. That is the true cost of an education and failure to do our work properly in the beginning. That doesn't mean we have to do poor work now. Never lose sight that your plight is much bigger than your own issue. I will never stop and you shouldn't either.

My heart goes out to the victims but I choose not to just grieve about it. I will be doing something about it far beyond my personal outcome. I will share my education when it reaches a better point.

I too bought in Nov 2017 and not surprisingly having the exact same problems everyone else is having.  I thought I did my research before hand, but none of the BBB info or this site came to the top of my searches until afterwards.  I visited Steve and saw his business first hand.  He was a pleasant man to talk too and I could tell he was excited about his work.   

However, after I gave him my deposit, I haven't heard anything at all.  I've tried calling, emailing and written letters.  No response.  None what so ever. 

I have no idea where I am on his current list. 

@Theron

Is there anything you or we can do to cause the SOC to get a higher ranking in Goggle searches for SAS or Steve Lawing?  Keywords, hash tags, or anything? I know it's not easy, but stories like this are so tragic. 

The more discussion here, the higher it will rank.  All of these thread pages already have the needed tags and text.

-=theron

Nothing much there, a couple of front/back clips and one or two  "bodies"

Google Earth wouldn't or I couldn't copy the pic. Could be operator error. 

4601 Mill Branch Lane

Knoxville, TN 37938

Couple donor Subarus - and body parts - Is that a completed silver/white car with black tonneau? You can zoom in on cars - somewhat. You can go to the Google Map link and leave a review.  He got 1 5 star rating 2 months ago from someone that hasn't heard anything bad about SAS.  You can't give a zero.

 

 

Attachments

Images (1)
Last edited by WOLFGANG
GP posted:

I too bought in Nov 2017 and not surprisingly having the exact same problems everyone else is having.  I thought I did my research before hand, but none of the BBB info or this site came to the top of my searches until afterwards.  I visited Steve and saw his business first hand.  He was a pleasant man to talk too and I could tell he was excited about his work.   

However, after I gave him my deposit, I haven't heard anything at all.  I've tried calling, emailing and written letters.  No response.  None what so ever. 

I have no idea where I am on his current list. 

You are likely to be on the bottom of a VERY VERY long list. 

Not much has been said in the past 2 years but if you read through this list you'll see that SAS has not delivered a completed car in over 3 years. I'd return immediately and get your money back.

http://sasowners.freeforums.org/the-queue-t102.html

Truly sad that despite the fact that we all are very much aware of the " many goings on " with $tevie Wonder, people continually get caught in his financial fly trap. I recall years ago when a local TV station there did an extensive investigation but so much for  that.... All we can do is get the word out the best we can and hope that potential customers choose one of the great manufactures that we all know and trust.

Last edited by Alan Merklin

As many of you know, I have tried, on this forum, to warn potential customers of Lawing and SAS to STAY AWAY! at all costs.  I have also tried to keep a close eye on his output, which is impossible to do remotely.

Unless others have more knowledge than I do, it may be inaccurate to say that SAS isn't producing cars.  I think what well-meaning commentators mean to say is that SAS isn't delivering cars to those that we know about on the list.  There is a big difference in those two positions.

The sad but irrefutable fact is that none of us knows how many buyers are in the queue, or, even sadder, how many queues there are.  Think of it this way: Lawing completes a replica for which the buyer has already paid $18,000 in two or more payments.  If Lawing sellls it to the buyer, that's $18,000 less than he could get from a fresh fish, a new guy that hasn't paid anything.  Of course, a sense of morality, decency, and fair play would dictate that the first guy in line, whom the car was made for, should get it.  However, that's not how things work in Lawing world.

I have gone from anger and righteous indignation to outrage to disgust to pity.  I hate what he did to me and others, but life goes on and it takes too much time and energy to hold a grudge indefinitely.  I have no idea if karma really exists, but it does give me a warm feeling when I contemplate a cosmic weighing of the scales for certain individuals. 

Robert M posted:
GP posted:

I too bought in Nov 2017 and not surprisingly having the exact same problems everyone else is having.  I thought I did my research before hand, but none of the BBB info or this site came to the top of my searches until afterwards.  I visited Steve and saw his business first hand.  He was a pleasant man to talk too and I could tell he was excited about his work.   

However, after I gave him my deposit, I haven't heard anything at all.  I've tried calling, emailing and written letters.  No response.  None what so ever. 

I have no idea where I am on his current list. 

You are likely to be on the bottom of a VERY VERY long list. 

Not much has been said in the past 2 years but if you read through this list you'll see that SAS has not delivered a completed car in over 3 years. I'd return immediately and get your money back.

http://sasowners.freeforums.org/the-queue-t102.html

As Jim pointed out, he MAY be delivering cars but based on this blog it isn't anyone on THIS list. And that list is long.

If you look at the Google satellite map you can view a shot from April 2016 or April 2018. The blue station wagon donor (don't think it's a Subaru even) on left with burnt/rusted crumpled hood hasn't moved in 2 years nor have the other 2 on the right (a blue and a white donor). The stack of wood pallets is maybe 5 higher (they are at least different pallets). Here's shot of 2 cars 90% complete - a white Speedster and a white coupe. Plus 3 nose bits and 2 rear halves.

Isn't this curious -

Stephen Lawing is 75 years old and was born on 1/1/1944. Currently, he lives in New Tazewell, TN Knoxville, TN, Knoxville, TN. Sometimes Stephen goes by various nicknames including Steve Lawling and Stephen W Lawing. He currently works as a President at Specialty Autoworks INC.

    

 Here's link to BB complaints -

https://www.bbb.org/us/tn/knox...0533-5824/complaints

Attachments

Images (1)
Last edited by WOLFGANG

There are services that specialize in cleaning up bad reports and reviews that companies get online. Steve could be smart and devious enough to employ this kind of service. With the reputation he and is company has it would be impossible to clean up everything but it would be reasonable to assume it would result in postings from this sight not coming up high on searches. Just a thought. I used to get solicited by companies offering this type of service to my business. My partners and I have run an ethical and profitable business going on 30 years now. It disgusts me that guys like Steve can continue to cheat people out of their money and their dreams. 

  Since I mentioned it, my business is Federal Knife Inc. We sell and sharpen industrial cutting blades of all types. If anyone is in a position to be in charge of the purchase of replacement blades or has a metal cutting shear in your shop,  let me know I will give a deep discount for being a fellow member of SOC. Check out our website:  Federal Knife.com

Attachments

Images (4)

At 75 years old - Steve will now just play the waiting game.  I'd seriously contact the lawyer Jim K mentioned so you can get something back.  So many folks with $10k, $17k and $18k hanging out there now.  Funny there is a picture on his web site of a dozen bodies sitting aging in the sun like Tennesee Bourbon. No date - but now he's down to just a couple.

1957 356A SPEEDSTER

Some 20 people (that we know of) waiting for him to build a car. There are those on the list that have been waiting 8, 9, even 10 years! This guy must be one smooooth talker. I have expressed my opinion before about paying him a visit to persuade him to give one's deposit back, so no need to repeat myself. After all this time I'm surprised he's still breathing and in business, which, if any one new to the situation hasn't figured out yet, seems to be taking deposits. As Jim has said, he may be building the odd car, but for whatever reason, he seems to be ignoring a good number of people who have given him rather substantial amounts of money.

I say a bunch of us stock up at the local Knox Whiskey Works, head over to SAS for an old fashion BBQ and throw an oinker on the fire.

I thought I'd give you an update on Mr. Lawing and SAS.  

I represented two clients last Monday in court against Mr. Lawing and SAS and received consent judgments against Mr. Lawing and SAS.  He is required to pay within a couple of months, including the attorney's fees.  These are public records; therefore, I am allowed to discuss the agreements.

Your may contact me if you have any questions or want to discuss suing for return of your deposit.

Stephen H. Byrd, Attorney at Law

9051 Executive Park Drive

Suite 200

Knoxville, Tennessee 37923

www.StephenHByrd.com

BunkyByrd@gmail.com

865-250-1968

 

I can attest to Bunky Bird's qualifications to handle these cases. he's a good lawyer that responds to you and keeps you up to date.

Good luck to all of you!

 

I almost joined the queue in 2008 but the market crash took away the discretionary funds.   I guess I actually benefited from a market crash!  7 years later, my funds having recovered, I found a used one for sale!

Last edited by Jethro

Jimmy V,

Bankruptcy's purpose is not to protect creditors, it's to protect the debtor.  When Lawing was faced with a $420,000 judgment about 10 years ago for defrauding a different bunch of car guys, he went BK and never paid a dime of the judgement.  Sounds kind of like someone in our current administration, eh?  Is this a great country or what?

Not sure where you're seeing his ad, since Theron cancelled his ad a few years ago.  I don't see it on my screen.

Jimmy V. posted:

It's crazy that I am looking at his advertisement on this site right now. How does this make sense?

Jimmy,
No ads on this site for quite a while. Not sure what you are seeing.
-=theron

Step #1 You win your court case and get a Judgement in your favor.  

Step #2 You need to collect the debt.  Now you have to use the courts to collect the amounts which are owed to you... this is the main problem as you may never be able to do so. 

You need to determine if it is worth the costs to sue SAS against the probability of collecting.  

IaM-Ray posted:

Step #1 You win your court case and get a Judgement in your favor.  

Step #2 You need to collect the debt.  Now you have to use the courts to collect the amounts which are owed to you... this is the main problem as you may never be able to do so. 

You need to determine if it is worth the costs to sue SAS against the probability of collecting.  

Exactly why I asked the question. 

This was method years ago in New Jersey. Discover what bank the business uses,  take the court order into the bank ... providing that there is at least that amount in the account, you obtain those funds.

Last edited by Alan Merklin

A judgement from a Tennessee court is only collectable under Tennessee law.  In summary, there are three methods of debt collection available in TN: 1) lien and execution on real property; 2) garnishment of bank accounts, wages, salaries, accounts receivable; and 3) attachment and execution on personal property, including boats, cars, inventory, stocks, etc.

Sounds pretty cut and dried, doesn't it?  What if there are no assets in the debtor's name?  Then creditor's attorney can conduct a post-judgement interview/deposition under oath to determine how the debtor supports himself, when/if he transferred assets to the name(s) of friends, relatives, etc., and the purpose of those transfers.

The creditor needs determination and a strong desire for revenge to complete the process against a wily and experienced debtor.  BTW, for those concerned, if Lawing is reading this, he's not learning anything.  Experienced freeloaders already know all the lowlife tricks.  That's how they've stayed in business and (mostly) out of jail all these years.

Theron posted:
Jimmy V. posted:

It's crazy that I am looking at his advertisement on this site right now. How does this make sense?

Jimmy,
No ads on this site for quite a while. Not sure what you are seeing.
-=theron

If someone Googles SAS and visits the website won't their ads start to show up in the boxes reserved for Google ads based on browsing history? On the right side of my screen there is a box for paid advertisements. Under that is two more boxes and they usually relate to previous browsing history. For instance I was browsing  Bell & Ross watches, now I see ads for B&R watches, etc.

Remember the couple who had the bank try to repossess their house when they paid cash for it? Post judgement, the couple showed up with court papers and a truck to collect bank computers, furniture, and any money. Things got settled real fast.

But that is only part of the picture. We also need scammers and frauds in jail with new sleeping partners. I am out for both. $20k worth.

Kudos Stephen! SAS has been defrauding folks for far too long.  Shame there isn't some jail time or further penalties that can be brought forth.

Years ago - before the popularity of the Internet, there was a similar kit car fraud. George Levine of Classic Motor Carriages (CMC) fame out of Miami FL actually got huge FL fine and jail time for his (albeit much more grandeous) Ponzi scheme back in 1991.  Here you were talking 900 customers with $5-15k hanging in limbo for months (but not years).  Sordid details below -

https://www.browardpalmbeach.c...ns-ugly-past-6459525

Wow....  Stuart Rado.  A name from the past in my dealings with CMC/GGL.

I didn't know how much Levin destroyed Rado.  Just like some groups (GGL included)  did to Curt Scott.  Lawyer up and drown your opponent with court costs.

I was lucky to have as a friend one of the best Corporate lawyers around who helped me organize my case against CMC/GGL as a Federal suit based on fraud via interstate commerce, wire fraud and US mail fraud.  I don't know how influential my case was, but by 1996 or so the Feds came down hard on Levin and company and "Auto Resolution" was formed to liquidate them (even though they continued selling junk as "Street Beasts" elsewhere in the country).

My greatest respect to you, Steve Byrd, in stepping up to help these unwitting buyers.  They were buying a dream but ended up with a nightmare, just like a lot of us others dealing with the likes of George Levin and Steve Lawing.  It's an unbelievable task to fight this sort of thing alone (at least there is a lot more grass-roots support these days on Social Media) so finding someone willing to step in and help make things right is a Godsend.

Gordon  A CMC owner from Massachusetts

Yesterday I started to post my thoughts on this whole SAS imbroglio and hesitated, but I am going to post it now.  3-4 years ago when the SAS issues with zero cars but many deposits made began to surface, questions were being asked on this site regarding what the hell was going on.  There were a few "Lawing defenders" stepping up to defend the lack of deliveries while deposits were still being taken, and an ever lengthening wait list continued to grow.  Some of he Lawing defenders were Lawing's greatest marketing allies with posts like " Don't worry, you will get your car, I know Steve and he is a stand up guy, I was just at the SAS shop and saw many cars being readied for delivery or in various stages of construction, these cars are space age with so many fantastic advances Yada--yada-yada.  Other SOC members were calling BS on these sycophants so it was quite a yelling match some days.  My question is were some SAS owners guilty of being complicit   in soothing the fears of buyers old and new that caused them a monetary loss? 

Go back and read the old posts on this matter.  Very interesting.

Last edited by Jack Crosby

Thanks for the timely reminder, Jack!  Almost all of the SAS "choir" have departed, most after selling their cars, of course.  One actually left in a huff but I see that he came back.  I actually had one SAS owner, who was a popular guy at Carlisle, email me privately to ask if I would please stop bashing SAS, not because I was wrong, but because he was going to sell his car in the near future, and wanted to protect the brand.  Some friend to his pals at SOC, eh?  Where's Geraldine when you need her?

It is unfortunate.  He has a pretty good platform, IMO.  My car, which may have been sorted by previous owners, is great!  The only issue I have had in the 3 years that I have owned it, is with a faulty relay to the fuel pump. 

Jim, I know you had issues with cooling and a few other things.  But I don't have a turbo, so the cooling isn't as much of a challenge.

What really attracted me to SAS was the mid engine design, and the Subi power train.

I agree, Jethro, that the basic premise of the platform is sound.  Over time, some other honest builder will refine the concept.  Our hobby is large enough that there is room for rear vs. mid-engine, air vs. water-cooled, etc.

Jim---there was never any "choir" and certainly no one in my circle of buddies ---only a very few --that's why I said to check the old posts. . And If I had the opportunity I'd not hesitate to buy an SAS  car because they truly are sensational.  That was never in doubt and has not been an issue.  I believe the issue was 100% some business practices ---never the car.  Gotta be honest!

Last edited by Jack Crosby

There was that one cobbled-together SAS that a builder (I think Seduction) assessed on behalf of a prospective buyer.   That particular car was not built well at all.  It was an early example, though.

I wonder how far along Special Edition is on their mid-engine project.

Hi Jack,

I wasn't accusing you of singing in the choir.  However, are the following a large enough group to be a choir:  Charles Gardener, John Eastman, Nolan Scott, and John Hallstrand?  Since you insist on honesty, I guess I should have said "quartet" (smile), or, since I was once one of the faithful, possibly a quintet.

SAS cars can be quality, but, from my experience, it's inconsistent throughout a single build.  Parts of my car were well done, but parts were amateurish to the point of criminal negligence.  As the poorly-done portions of the build reveal themselves, I would repair/replace as needed.  It took me 5 years to get the car that I should have received when I picked it up in Knoxville.

I rode in Nolan's which was an automatic - great car.  Hoss's was beautiful to look at (never got a ride). I remember seeing an ivory (?) coupe show one year at Carlisle that was outstanding too. So, yup, just abysmal illegal business practices.

Jimmy,
No ads on this site for quite a while. Not sure what you are seeing.
-=theron

In reply the Theron's post, see the pic of my computer screen yesterday. The SAS advertisement and link to his site is present on the right side of the screen. I guess it is an automatic function of Google's marketing ??

Screen 1-10-19

Attachments

Images (1)

I think Theron meant that he doesn't host paid SAS advertising any more.  The google ad content is outside his control but I think you can flag it as not-relative/redundant.

Lots of ink for SAS, how is justice not served by getting an incorrigeable individual.  Any tax evasion investigation being done

That SAS ad is just a pop up---nothing to do with the SOC site.  As soon as it became apparent that SAS was who they are Theron booted them along with other change that vastly raised the quality of this site's discourse. 

Speaking of SAS ...

The photo is the rear suspension of an SAS car per the SAS website.  Does anybody know if SAS makes their own rear suspension components?  Or have them made?  Or is this a suspension from a donor vehicle?  And if anybody is currently driving an SAS with this rear suspension, how is it working out?

SPEEDHALL33a

Attachments

Images (1)

Check out the inspection that the guy at Seduction did for a potential buyer. The post or link included many good pictures of the build quality of that particular SAS car ( which didn't look good). I am thinking the quality of the SAS cars is inconsistent from the posts I have read.

It’s OK, Jethro.  We know Lawing built some well-constructed cars.  He was just inconsistent.

I saw your car several times when it lived in Rhode Island and admired how good it looked (and believe me, I looked all over it a couple of times).  It had the usual SAS eccentricities, like the second dash in the frunk) and qI do not know how many things the original owner had to have fixed.  I know of several but never kept close touch about it - It wasn’t my car, after all.  I do know that he probably did not do the work, if any - He was not a hands on wrench, in my mind, and there were health issues involved, too, IIRC.

It seems, however, that Lawing began to rush them through his shop at some point in time and his product quality suffered.  That may have happened pretty early, too, as I often heard of people arranging for a trip through Knoxville to get things fixed on their SAS cars on their way either to/from Carlisle or to/from home from somewhere.  That included a number of visits over time for “Geraldine’s” car, but some of that could have been for semi-regular maintenance or upgrades or whatever, I don’t know.  Again, not my car, so little interest, there.

Anyway, he was building all sorts of cars in his cluttered shop (I’ve been there), many of them customs or Hot Rods (and those clients have their own set of problems with Lawing).  The owner of that Ivory coupe Wolfgang mentioned had had other cars built there over years but seemed to be a patient supporter of Lawing’s.  I guess he had his own reasons - I surely would not have been that understanding, but that’s me and I’m not him.

If I were to own one of his gems, my only big concern would be (a.) understanding the design, where everything is in the car and its’ original source/placement and (b.) how to fix just about everything on the car, because nobody else is gonna understand it , either.  AS I recall, no detailed service manual was included as it was thought that “you could just take it to a Subaru dealer for drivetrain service”.  Sorta true, but even when they find something in the diagnostics, where that piece might be in the car compared to, say, an Impreza’s similar part, could be totally different.  It might take a lot of work, at times, to simply find the source of a problem and THEN you have to figure out how to service it.  It goes on and on.

So don’t be overly sensitive, J-Man.  Sorted SAS cars are in a class by themselves, true, but so are Subaru-powered IM’s, like Peter Venuti’s and others, Suby-powered JPS cars and so on.  All are custom cars at different levels of quality design and completion.  I would say, though, that SAS cars are probably not cars for the oil and gas only type of owner, as sooner or later they will need some attention, just like all custom cars.  It’s great that you have been able to maintain your car by yourself.

gn

Robert M posted:
jenzbenz207 posted:

Just checking in.
Any updates on anyone's progress or ability to collect owed money?


No.

Did you get a lawyer?

We have a lawyer, recommended here, and even he has a hard time calling us back. I can't explain how goddamn frustrating all this is.

jenzbenz207 posted:
Robert M posted:
jenzbenz207 posted:

Just checking in.
Any updates on anyone's progress or ability to collect owed money?


No.

Did you get a lawyer?

We have a lawyer, recommended here, and even he has a hard time calling us back. I can't explain how goddamn frustrating all this is.

 I don’t have a dog in this fight. I’m just a member here on the forum and have been keeping track of the saga. 

Robert M posted:
jenzbenz207 posted:
Robert M posted:
jenzbenz207 posted:

Just checking in.
Any updates on anyone's progress or ability to collect owed money?


No.

Did you get a lawyer?

We have a lawyer, recommended here, and even he has a hard time calling us back. I can't explain how goddamn frustrating all this is.

 I don’t have a dog in this fight. I’m just a member here on the forum and have been keeping track of the saga. 

Sorry if you think I implied that you did. My original question and responding comment was spoken outloud for everyone, not just you directly.

Good luck to everyone!

 

 

Jim Kelly posted:

Jimmy V,

Bankruptcy's purpose is not to protect creditors, it's to protect the debtor.  When Lawing was faced with a $420,000 judgment about 10 years ago for defrauding a different bunch of car guys, he went BK and never paid a dime of the judgement.  Sounds kind of like someone in our current administration, eh?  Is this a great country or what?

Not sure where you're seeing his ad, since Theron cancelled his ad a few years ago.  I don't see it on my screen.

Hi where can I find more info pertaining to this $420,000 case against Lawing?
Thanks

Stephen W. Lawing declared bankruptcy in the Eastern Tennessee Bankruptcy Court (www.tneb.uscourts.gov).  The case was finally settled in 2012. 

Warning: To access BK Court records, you will need to join PACER, the public access system to court records, an onerous process that will force you to reconsider your position on anarchy as a viable form of government.

Last edited by Jim Kelly