Need advice

Two things I really like about a center mounted carb is the engine can be taken out without having to take off the carb and getting at the plugs is much easier.

Well the new coil didn't improve anything.  There are really only two more things in the ignition system that are possible: the ignitor is failing, or the timing is way off.  I decided to check the carbs again and listened to the driver side one.  There is a distinct "chuffing" sound from one cylinder so I removed, disassembled, and cleaned it again, with no effect.  I thought about vacuum leaks, but could find no evidence of anything.  That carb base gasket is new and all bolts are tight.  It's mid/upper 80s and humid (mid-October?) and I don't feel like staying out in it all afternoon.  I've got a million things to do around the yard but since I will be out next weekend I guess I need to spend some more time on the thing in the garage (weekend #4) or I may as well give up on the fall season.

 

Frankly the idea of pilling the carbs off again makes me want to puke.  If I could get it to run well enough to tune them I'd try that, but right now I can't.  

 

So, what is timing supposed to be?  I have a lot of trouble keeping it idling, so this could be difficult.  Any other ideas?

Lane- Is the problem still specific to one cylinder? Timing at idle is usually 6-8' btdc at idle, but that's with an 009.

I would think 28 to 30 degrees at 3000rpm....   Don't think the type of distributor makes a difference....   I ran 28 degrees most of the time....

It was specific to one cylinder (#1) for a while, but that has now changed.  I am probably chasing at least two problems, at least one of which I probably caused when I removed some stuff to fix a rattle in the shroud.

 

I'll check timing tomorrow and maybe just take the carbs back to baseline and try to tune them.  The "chuffing" sound has me a bit confused, though.

Hey!  Isn't there an active VW club in Charleston?  If so, I would find out how to contact them (they may have their own website like this) and see if you can get some help.  Especially when it comes to "borrowing" something like a Pertronics Ignitor to try out.  Most club people are just like us and can't wait to help on something like this.

 

This trial-and-error gets expensive after a while.  I probably spent close to a Grand trying to find why my car shuddered between 65-70 mph.  After all that, I find it had a slightly defective differential (a "Super-Diff", no less).  Once that was swapped, it miraculously cured itself.

 

I think I would be real close to getting the car to that guy on the other side of town who works on VW's (Ken something?  It's been a while) and just say; "Fix it!"

 

"Chuffing" through the carb is usually an intake leak.  Is it on the #1-2 side?

The problem is that the only two decent air-cooled mechanics around are 30 miles away.  I can't drive the car that far and I the cost of a flatbed would be annoying, but I may end up doing that.  I haven't stayed much in touch with the local VW crowd because they all live on the other side of town from here.  Go figure.

 

The chuffing is on the #3-4 side.  New base gasket.  I suppose the manifold itself could be a little loose.  Guess I'll see if I can check that without pulling the carb for the 3rd or 4th time.

 

It'll be several weeks before I could get it flatbedded somewhere because of other things on the schedule.  Maybe it'll be running again by Thanksgiving.

Lane, my mechanic found a bad carb to manifold gasket by using the tried and true speraying carb cleaner at the carb bases.  If the engine picks up RPM then you know you have a leak.

New carb base gaskets as of Wednesday.  However, the manifold base gaskets are a whopping one year old and much harder to get to, so that's probably it.

Damn.  No one will know their engine like you will after you solve this---and I know you will get it behind you.

Not sure I really want to know it this well, frankly.

Maybe this is dumb, but 1-4-3-2, right?

And I'm inclined to think the Pertronix dizzy/ignitor is going south.

Yup, 1-4-3-2.  If all the checks I do tomorrow come up negative I'm probably getting a new ignitor.  Unfortunately my experts are not in agreement as Cory says that he doesn't think it sounds like ignition.  At this point I am not certain of anything.  Anyway, tomorrow I can:

1. Check the timing
2. Check the intake manifold for tightness and the gasket for solidity
3. Pull the valve covers and look for something more serious
4. Anything else????????

 

I still wonder if I broke something when I removed stuff to fix the rattle.  If that's the case, it has to be something that I could have broken, which is not likely to be the ignitor.  Then again, I might have caused more problems which shotgunning stuff.  My confidence in my diagnostic abilities is pretty low at the moment.

I'm no expert but could it be a bad throttle switch or even a faulty fuse box.
Once again I'm no expert but I haven't seen theses two items posted as a possibility.

 

Throttle switch?  There is a cable.  The only thing approaching electronic on this engine is the Pertronix distributor.

As expected the valves are fine.  However, this looks an awful lot like a smoking gun to me.  This was under the #3/4 intake manifold.  The other side was fine but I'll be replacing them both.  The nuts were still plenty tight, a function of the Threadlocker I used.  Probably screwed this one up during installation and it's been deteriorating over the last year or so.

 

One question: I've heard two different things about what sealer to use on these.  One person says gasket sealer (like I used the first time) while the other says just to use wheel bearing grease.

 

Lane--that's exactly what mine looked like when I was getting deceleration backfiring at Carlisle.  when it was like this before replacing it, there was no response at all when turning the idle mixture screws.  The good side would respond to idle mixture screw adjustments.

 

The torn gasket allowed air to be sucked into the engine and when the carb cleaner got sucked into that air and reached the engine, it clearly wood speed up.

 

You wonder how a gasket could tear like that when you put it on and tighten the nuts---without any twisting motion, it's hard to see how the gasket became torn.  PITA!!!!

 

I hope you are at the end of this quest.

 

I think you found the trouble.  Do you have new gaskets?

I don't use any kind of sealer or grease. I put them in dry and replace them every couple years.

Certainly looks like the culprit.  My fingers are crossed for you.

You found it!

 

If it's not spark or fuel-- it's got to be mechanical. I put them in dry as well, or with some Curil T on the gasket for ease of clean-up later.

 

I'm really glad for you!

Twice in the last month, I've replaced manifold to head gaskets, my car and Koda's car.  I consulted the good Dr. (Alan) and he told me go "old scool" and use grease.  Worked just fine.

I'll have to order new gaskets and it will be at least a week before I have a chance to put them in.  I'll be up in the mountains some of next week and the whole weekend.  Maybe a week from Monday when I get home.

 

I believe what happened is that this was building for a while but I probably did mess up the spark plug wire on #1 when I was fixing the rattle in the shroud.  Why this decided to pick now to become more significant will remain a mystery.  Probably just sad coincidence.   The ensuing ignition problem search was a diversionary tactic to keep me off the road.  Maybe the universe was telling me I should drive the Speedster one day.  We'll never know.

Lane-

 

I've got a set of intake manifold gaskets (I order them 10 at a time- I hate to not have cheap parts I can't get locally) you can have for nuthin'. You'll need to trim them to fit your port-matched manifold.

 

I can drop them in the mail tomorrow, if you dialog me with your address. 

Regular automotive grease, Molybdenum or whatever.

 

Put a nice even coat on both sides.

 

Let them sit a few hours, like during the day or overnight (ask Kelly), to let the material absorb the grease and swell a bit.

 

Wipe off excess and install as-is, NO Permatex. Make sure you have thoroughly removed whatever silicon gasket goop was on there (both surfaces).

 

I don't use Locktite on the manifold studs, or nylon insert nuts, preferring to use regular nuts and lockwashers instead, Because that is easier to assemble.

 

If you can, install just the manifolds first, then the carbs on top of the manifolds - this minimizes torquing of the assembly and premature head-to-manifold gasket leaks.

 

If the carbs are already installed on the manifolds, I would leave them alone but if they're already on there, remove the linkage from the carbs, install the carb/manifold as an assembly (both sides) THEN install the linkage.  That way, you get no false torquing of the assemblies during install. (And yes, I know you have a Bellcrank linkage system).

 

Glad you're making headway.  Sounds just like what Dr. Frazer went through.

Dialog on its way, Stan.  Thanks!!!

Lane,

 

They'll be on their way in the morning.

 

If your heads are ported, you'll need to trim the gaskets to match. Other guys seem to be able to do this without a buch of fuss, but it always gave me a lot of grief. I finally figured out a trick way of trimming them to fit the manifolds.

 

Until recently, I would try to do a tracing, then trim with an exacto knife. The last set I did by bolting the gasket to the manifold with a couple of 5/16"x 1" bolts and nuts. Once the gasket is secure on the manifold, I just used the exacto knife to trim the gasket to match the manifold, while it was in place. I treated it like I was peeling something away. If you do it this way, you'll want to be careful not to gouge the AL on the manifold port, but I made the last set in 10 minutes, and they were perfect. Every other set I've ever done took an hour or two, and looked pretty imperfect.

 

Your mileage may vary, but give it a try if you want to.

 

Either way, they will be in the mail tomorrow.

 

Lane, you surprise me.

 

You must know by now that nothing that happens to these cars is a coincidence.

 

A small percentage of problems may be due to delayed maintenance, unskilled wrenching, or worn parts, but the overwhelming cause of mechanical failure in Speedsters is good weather.

 

 

Lane,

 

As i posted previously I was having problems with my 1914 similar to yours and I found the culprit so this may help you. I checked everything I could think of-Compression,FP pressure,valves,timing, plugs, wires dist cap and rotor(I have electronic ignition) coil, idle  & hi speed jets and all are ok. What I found was the brass seat on #2 idle mixture adj. was stuck to the needle.(Weber IDF 40s) It took 3 tries but I finally roughened up the outside of the seat and tapped it back in place-press fit as far as I can see. I  didn't bottom out the adj. screw when I put it back but eyeballed it . I was able to get correct reading on the flowmeter(snail) , all 4 cyl were firing at idle so I went for a drive. For the 1st half hour the engine was smooth, no intermittent hesitation,plenty of power(my problem was always on idle circuit). Then it started to backfire so i stopped and leaned down #2-backfire gone! Luckily I can access #2 adjs and jets without removing the carb which as you know is a big pia. I got home ok after along ride and one more mixture and idle speed adj. The engine is running pretty good but not quite as well as when I started. I will have to check that brass seat again but enough for today. These cars do check our ingenuity and patience- hope my experience helps you.

 

Joel

Gordon, wasn't it you who suggested chapstick on the gaskets?

 

Whoever suggested it, that's what I used last time. It is very easy to apply.

Ummm... That would be old school, not old scool.  I hate when I do that.

Good old George Brown (an unknown entity to many now on here) told me about the Chapstick trick, and it is, indeed, a terrific moisturizing delivery device Because, after all, what you're trying to do is apply moisture to the gasket material to get the surface to swell and become pliable to fill any imperfections in the mating surfaces.  Chapstick works OK for this.

 

What I have migrated to is a marinade injector syringe in place of the Chapstick tube.  Cut off the pointed tip of the syringe needle back above the top injection hole (I just used a Dremel tool and cut-off wheel), load up the syringe with your choice of grease and squirt a well-defined bead around the gasket where ever you want.  Once beaded, just squish out the bead to cover the material and let it set to moisten the gasket (I just hang them on a wire).  I have found that doing this with a standard-thickness gasket seems to seal better than one of those "thicker/mushier" gaskets sold to supposedly seal better. 

 

I like it better than Chapstick because I can choose what grease gets applied - wheel bearing, CV joint, synthetic or regular molybdenum, it's up to me and the application.

 

Remember, too, that the head-to-manifold gasket takes a lot more torque stress than any other gasket on the engine because of the long torque-arm of the carb/manifold assembly.  That arm tries to shake about, torquing the lower manifold flange back and forth so you really don't want an overly thick gasket in there.....it just gets bashed down and then leaks.  Standard thickness, composite gasket material, properly moistened with grease, works just fine.

 

Try it - You'll like it.  No muss, no fuss.  "Cajun Gourmet" syringe or anything you can find at better BBQ stores is fine.  The needle usually has a 1/8" ID.....just perfect.

 

After use on your gaskets, DO NOT inject any marinade with it.......Jus sayin.

Oh, and if you get Stan's gaskets and need to trim them and don't feel comfortable with an Xacto knife, try a single-hole paper punch - the kind that looks like a pair of scissors or vise grips.  Just use them to nibble away on the hole til it's the right shape.

Didn't anybody read my great long protracted thread about being defeated??  Same title applies to Lane -- read his later postings here, and he is sounding definitely defeated.  He'd rather go mow the lawn than keeping diddling w/ his car to no avail -- man, oh man, can I relate . . .

 

Lane: did you use the starter-fluid-sprayed-at-the-manifold trick?  Or just take the damn thing apart to have a look-see?

 

In case there are some here who were not looking at my thread, Pic attached is what I found when I lifted my carb/manifold.

 

I used the Five-cent Racing/ Dr. Clock Old School method of wheel bearing grease liberally applied and let sit overnight.  Sucked up so much of the grease that I coated them again.  I did this despite Mr. Piperato's very vocal insistence that I use Loctite anerobic gasket maker #518 and the primer that goes with it #7471, which if properly done he claims by vast experience to work flawlessly, and permanently.  My only defense is that I could not find a good place to buy this stuff on-line, and I was ready to go, so used the grease.  I did find an on-line retailer, and ordered some, it is now on station, in case I go there again.

 

Another note: Be sure to tighten the nuts here gradually, taking them down  a little on one side, then the other.  Once all set and as snug as you can get them, run for a while, and get them hot and then cool, and then re-torque them -- I bet you will find they will take up a bit more.  I'd say an annual tightening of these nuts should be normal, proper procedure.  I am using the 10 mm hex flange nuts here, and a lock washer.

 

About the re-tightening:  I tooled over to Drake's Garage after getting everything back together, and checked the tightness of the nuts after a bit of cooling.  Three of the nuts took up some more tightening, and the fourth one was - - - missing!!  WTF?  Got so loose, even w/ lock washer, that it fell off after about 30 mins of driving.  Do not repeat this mistake.

I might not have been clear there about the Loctite:  Danny uses the fiber gaskets and coats with the Loctite/primer material.  Loctite says you can use this stuff plain as is, i.e., w/ no gasket needed -- metal to metal.  I do not know of anybody who has tried that, but I think it would work just fine.  If their claim about sealing is correct, you'd end up w/ a very thin gasket, capable of dealing with all that bending moment of the flange, seems to me.  Has anybody tried this stuff "bareback", so to say? Without a fiber gasket?

... and the Chapstick thing is highly recommended for gaskets in the carbs themselves, esp'y the one between body and top.   The wax in there (paraffin??) makes that joint come apart easily if/when you have to, and can even re-use the gasket, says here.

You must have some serious vibration, Kelly, to have lost a nut (hee hee!) in a short drive.  I used a bit of Threadlocker when I put mine on last year and all four were still very tight.  I am using the same flanged 10mm nuts with flat washer and lock washer that you are.

 

Even so, I plan to do an annual check of these, and if I notice unexplained roughness again, I am willing to test either with carb cleaner spray or direct visual inspection.  By the way, I used the latter procedure this time.

 

Many thanks to Kelly and Cory for the long phone conversations on Sunday discussing possibilities for diagnosis.  As always, the folks on this site rock!

Actually, looking at your manifold ports, mine are somewhat larger holes with a much narrower piece between the ports.  Because of that, I had a hard time keeping gaskets in there (it kept sucking the narrow piece out between ports) so I faced the manifold flanges (rubbed across a piece of sandpaper on a sheet of glass to make them flat) and used Locktite Flange Sealer on them, sans gaskets.   That's been working for a few years, now (like 6 or 7, I guess) but it was only a last resort.  If I had more "regular" ports, the gaskets would have worked just fine.

Glad you found it Lane! I hope you ordered more than 1 pair. You should always have a couple extra sets of these, carb top and exhaust gaskets around. I have heard of people dropping the manifold to head gaskets altogether and just going with gasket goop but have never tried it; I found the carbs benefited from being somewhat insulated from the heat of the head and and at one time used 1/4" bakelite spacers (with gaskets on both sides, of course).

 

And yes, Kelly, I followed your saga. 

 

PS- Of course, I finish my post and Gordon's done it!

Finger are crossed that this will resolve things.  I won't actually be able to fix the car until I get back from EuroFest after the weekend.

OK, wrt the little thin isthmus of gasket between the two ports:  Some will be larger and some will be smaller (and the one's mother gives you don't do anything at all. Ask Alice . . .) oops, slipped a track there.  I think using thin gaskets, coated with the Loctite materials mentioned, carefully applied, is the RIGHT way to assure that this little section remains in place.  Gordon pointed out once in a previous note that if all that goes hinky is this little short section, the two intakes will still be sealed from the outside, but also communicating with each other and making running poor.  In this case the starter fluid spray trick would not register any problem.  Fiendish, I say.