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I need some troubleshooting advice, guys.  I have been doing my fall maintenance over the last couple of weekends including a semi-annual removal and cleaning of the webers as I had noticed a increasing roughness over the last couple of months.  Since then the car seems to run on about 3 1/2 cylinders - 3 good and one not completely out of it but not healthy.  My first thought or course is clogged idle jet, but after a couple of removals and thorough cleanings I am not so sure, nor do I really want to remove them again.  Could it be that the old adage or "Most carburetor problems are ignition problems" be true?  What is the best way to diagnose?  I will try the old "remove one plug wire at a time" trick, but I would like to hear other suggestions.  This seems like a more regular misfire that usual from a clogged idle jet and it seems to happen at all RPMs.

 

Today was the first Saturday in several weeks where the weather was good enough to drive the Speedster to Cars and Coffee and I was pissed that I couldn't.

 

Also - I need to buy some spare idle jets for the carbs (.060s) and wonder where the best place is to get them.

1964 Beck Super Coupe

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Long distance, without looking at (or hearing) the car, anything we come up with is going to be a guess. It could at least it can be an educated guess, except that the only education I ever had was in high-school shop, and a couple of years working in a service station back in the pre-EFI stone age.

 

Back in the day, a guy with his name on a work-shirt would have been able to hook your car up to an oscilloscope and pinpoint where your problem was. However, at this point, you're kind've reduced to looking at (and changing) ignition parts one by one.

 

I'd start with the plugs and wires, followed closely by the cap and rotor. After that, it'd be the points (if you've still got them). Last stop on the guessing train would be the coil. My money is on the cap and rotor, but new plugs and wires every couple of years are a good idea regardless.

 

... and yeah, 95% of carburation problems are ignition. 95% of the time, that advice works every single time. This advice and a dollar will buy a small coffee at any McDonald's in America-- you can take that to the bank!

Last edited by Stan Galat

And plugs? Start at the basics- if you have points, what do they look like? How old is the condenser? Do a valve adjustment just so you know everything there is right. John Connolly (sp?) at Aircooled.net seems to care about parts quality, has an online presence on the Samba and really supports the hobby, so he's one I recommend.

When you did the carburetor cleaning and replacement, did you use new carburetor base and manifold base gaskets? (if you removed the manifolds)

 

I never re-use a carb base or either manifold gasket.

 

If those were new each time and the condition persists, then you may have a bad plug wire, rotor or disti cap, or it could be as simple as the #1 plug boot is loose or not fully seated.

 

At least you have plenty of things to look at......

 

If you're looking at a set of plug wires, Taylor makes a really good, silicone jacketed 7mm set carried by CB:  

 

http://www.cbperformance.com/P...asp?ProductCode=2083

 

Don't forget the cap and rotor, too.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

Wires (8mm) and rotor ordered from PerTronix.  I didn't remove the manifolds but did have to reuse the carb base gaskets.  I will order some and replace.

 

When I had the distributor cap off I noticed that #1 terminal had some green corrosion around it that the others didn't have.  I was going to get another cap as well, but can't seem to order just that anywhere.  Still looking.

 

EDIT: Just read all of the responses (you guys are quick) and will answer some of the questions.  I have no points or condenser, having replaced the original 009 (with electronic ignitor) several years back with a PerTronix FlameThrower II Billet distributor.  The plugs are relatively new and I would prefer not to have to remove as it is such a pain to get to the front ones.  I will check a few more things once the engine cools down.  I suppose it's possible that #1 wire is loose at the plug.

Last edited by Lane Anderson
Originally Posted by Stan Galat, '05 IM, 2276, Tremont, IL:

... My money is on the cap and rotor, but new plugs and wires every couple of years are a good idea regardless.

 

... and yeah, 95% of carburation problems are ignition. 95% of the time, that advice works every single time. This advice and a dollar will buy a small coffee at any McDonald's in America-- you can take that to the bank!

Green corrosion in the cap? Cha-ching!

 

For today, scrape the corrosion off with a flat-bladed screwdriver (the 'ol hick-town tune-up), and I'll bet it runs better.

 

Get a new one (and rotor), and you can buy me that coffee in the event you ever meet me. As an aside: at some point, you're going to have to make some provision or other to be able to easily remove #1 and #3 plugs. Having an ignition problem, and not looking at the plugs is like trying to read a book written in Mandarin, with the lights off, and your glasses on the night-stand.

Last edited by Stan Galat

Lane,

I've had exactly the same problem on idle circuit intermittently only on   #2 cylinder on my 1914cc with dual weber 40's for months. After taking the carbs apart and cleaning them, rechecking the valves, putting in a new spark plug, checking the cap ,rotor, and wires I did a compression test yesterday and all cylinders checked out at 135 Lbs. I  filled up with hi test yesterday  at the same station that I had gotten it a while back and the car ran like crap again. I usually get regular locally but was taking the tub to the drag strip (V-Dub Drag Fest)

After driving 160 miles on route 80 this am I ran the car 4 times down the track and did pretty well. I raced my buddy's new Fiat Arbath 3 times and beat him out of the hole each time but once his turbo kicked in he left me. I beat a bug sedan which had a stinger exhaust but I don't know what engine it had.My best times were 10.917 in the1/8 and 17.392 in the 1/4, top speed 75.89 mph.

I had a very experienced VW engine builder listen to my engine and he was convinced it was a  plugged idle jet.On the 160 mile trip home this PM the car stumbled at idle and oil temp went to 240-I was pushing it too hard. It's time to change gas stations and install an oil cooler after I reclean the carb.

 

Joel

DANG! I hope you can find that gremlin get the motor sorted out and back to smooth operation, Lane!

 

I must say that I never had an issue with the Kadrons or the stock ignition on my 1835 in the nearly 100,000 miles I logged on that engine (with off-the-shelf-whatever-is-on-sale 30 wt oil). The only problem I had was a broken throttle cable on a 200 mile cruise. Without a spare, I was able to MacGuyver a fix with some shoelaces I found on the roadside...

 

McGuyver

…and made it the remaining 100 miles home without a hitch.

 

I know what you're all thinking…that MUSBJIM is such a dick!!! 

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Last edited by MusbJim
Originally Posted by MusbJim - '14 VS SoCal:

       

DANG! I hope you can find that gremlin get the motor sorted out and back to smooth operation, Lane!

 

I must say that I never had an issue with the Kadrons or the stock ignition on my 1835 in the nearly 100,000 miles I logged on that engine (with-off-the-shelf-whatever-is-on-sale 30 wt oil). The only problem I had was a broken throttle cable on a 200 mile cruise. Without a spare, I was able to MacGuyver a fix with some shoelaces I found on the roadside...

 

McGuyver

…and made it the remaining 100 miles home without a hitch.

 

I know what you're all thinking…that MUSBJIM is such a dick!!! 


       

Like a boss...
Originally Posted by Gordon Nichols - Massachusetts 1993 CMC:

MUSBJIM is NOT a dick........

 

Huh?... confused?

 

OHH - heh... I see that Jim jokingly called himself that.


I thought you were referring tothe phrase 'like a boss'. It is the vernacular of the youth of today. Apparently it's intended to be a compliment. Something like "the person with all the power".

 

I will try to stick to terms more relevant to our generation.

 

Ted

Last edited by TRP
Originally Posted by Hoss 2004 SAS 356A Cabriolet Loudon TN:

Me too Lane, I thought "dick" meant the same as "prick" used to mean back in the day.  Perhaps we should attend a lecture given by the colloquial police, soon to be featured at a library near us.  

I hate to tell you, John, but libraries are 'so yesterday'.  The lecture will be delivered on your ipod or ipad, or whatever the heck they are called.

 

Not yet.  If I can locate the old plug wires and they will fit this distributor cap I will try to swap out #1.  The new wires and rotor won't arrive for a few days, and the new cap and gaskets are probably a few more days out than that.  I swear I ordered new idle jest as well, (I need spares), but neither order lists them.  DOH!

 

I should have some free time tomorrow evening to poke around and see if I can learn anything new about it.

If it's any consulation Lane, Natalie is done for the season.  The carbs have been boiling over for awhile now and I've been getting by by shutting off the fuel pump.  On Saturday, it finally gave out with lots of backfiring and coughing.

My plan was to make my annual pilgrimage to Brenen on 11-4, because Ford gives me Election Day off, but found out that Carey is delivering a new Speedster to the Detroit area in about 3 weeks and can trailer Natalie home for the winter, so that's the new plan :-).

Lane, webercarbsdirect.com is in Long Island, NY. They will have your jets to you in a day or two. And for cheap too!

 

Tom, my carb top gaskets need to be replaced, got a brake upgrade to do, and ball joint replacement as well. But I'm waiting until the season is over as it is sweet driving right now. Other than tomorrow, no rain, cool, and dry!

Last edited by DannyP

Ok, now back to our regularly scheduled thread...

 

When I got home from work some of the parts had arrived so I installed them.  I now know somethings that the problem ISN'T.  It's not:

  1. A bad spark plug on #1.  I pulled #1 and #2 and they looked the same, so I swapped them.
  2. Carb base gaskets.  Replaced 'em.
  3. Idle jets.  Got four nice shiny new ones in there.
  4. Distributor cap.  Pretty new one didn't help.
  5. Rotor.  Nope, that didn't help either.

So I am hoping the new plug wires arrive tomorrow.  If that doesn't help then I guess I jack it up and remove the passenger-side valve cover and take a look-see for something more expensive.

 

To recap, the car seems to be running on 3 1/2 cylinders.  Pulling the #1 plug wire has only a minimal effect on idle while pulling any other one damn near kills it.  The car starts well enough and the misfire seems to be very consistent.

 

Ideas, anyone?  I'm going to miss some spectacular weather this weekend and I am not happy about it.

have you checked timing?  Coil?  Are the carbs synched?  Any chance of some type of exhaust leak air something causing it to suck in air where it isn't needed?  Also. I know on the carbs I had their was the Air bleeder screw or something along those lines (don't laugh it's been a while and a carb guy I'm not), but maybe one of those is out of adjustment?

Carbs were synched and in tune before I felt the need to clean them due to running slightly rougher than they had been.  I had them off to clean and I also pulled them so that I could remove the shroud and correct a rattle.  Somewhere in there I changed the situation, but I am not sure where.  At one point I removed the #1 plug wire to move it out of the way, and that makes me suspicious.  I could have messed it up somehow.  I have not yet checked timing.

Partially blocked idle passages? Not the idle jet, but the passages that feed it. That is what it sounds like to me, as there was a partial rpm drop when the wire was pulled on that one cylinder. Did you swap the wires on 1 and 2 just for the sake of argument?

 

Possibly the air hole that feeds the idle circuit is partially blocked. If air is reduced, fuel draw will be reduced as well.

Last edited by DannyP

I haven't swapped the wires yet, but will try that.  I blew out all of the passages with a compressor, but I can try it one more time.  If this is a problem that I induced I'll grovel before the car as an apology.

 

One reason that I am doubtful about an idle circuit issue is that the misfire seams consistent across the RPM range, even above the transition to the main jets.

Last edited by Lane Anderson

Ok, I removed, disassembled, and cleaned out the carb for #1 and #2, and there was no change.  I'd be really surprised at this point if it turned out to be a carb issue.  I haven't swapped plug wires yet.  Maybe I'll feel like getting dirty again later.

 

It is sunny, breezy, and in the 70s with low humidity... And here I am with nothing to drive but a coupe with an automatic.

The Craftsman version has a gauge with an 18" rubber hose on it with multiple, different ends to fit various plug configs.  I would suspect other makes are the same.  Mine fits anything American I've ever put on it, as well as my T-1 engine, motorcycles, snowmobiles, you name it.  (sorry - just saw the pic from Danny's post).

 

The gauge end also has a one-way valve that holds the highest pressure seen until you release it.  Makes it much handier.

 

Drop by if you want to use mine.......

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

Well there is no joy in Mudville...

 

It started up and sounded like all 4 cylinders were firing, but the deteriorated quickly. The symptoms are different, however.  There were times when all four were firing, but it was intermittent, and seemingly only at higher RPMs.  That sounds a bit like idle jets, but it isn't consistent.  I have and old coil that I will try tomorrow to see if the coil is failing.  I am on my second or third since going to the Pertronix system.  I suppose I could shotgun it and replace all four plugs (new last spring), but I hate to keep buying new s**t that doesn't fix it.  I suppose the distributor itself could be failing.  Maybe that Pertronix setup wasn't such a good idea after all.  I think I still have the old one somewhere.  I have gotten the carbs as clean internally as I know how to do and really don't want to screw with them again.  I am just about out of ideas (and patience).

Did you make sure the screw(s) holding the base plate in the distributor and the Ignitor to the plate are tight? Do you have a ground wire from the distributor to the case? And for that matter, what is your battery voltage at idle? Fuel pump pressure?

 

All these items need to be checked off your list, including compression check.

Did you replace the distributor cap and rotor?

 

If it's running fine on 3 cylinders, then you have to look to something that is cylinder specific.  Plug wire, cap and rotor, plug, manifold gasket(s), valve adjustment, jet crud, that sort of thing.  If it were the Pertronics, then I would expect it to manifest itself in random cylinder screw-ups, rather than always on the same cylinder, right?

 

Look for something specific to the offending cylinder.  Replace that one plug.  I had a single plug go bad last Spring for no apparent reason.  Ended up replacing all four (they were, like, $2.50 each at the time) and problem solved.

 

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

Lane there are inexpensive battery check devices sold at auto parts stores that plug into the cigarette lighter socket that will tell you the voltage at idle, 3,000 RPM or even before you start the engine.  I wish I could help you more than this but it is an answer to knowing the voltage at idle.

 

I feel for you, bro and am anxious to see what this mystery problem is.  Hang in there Lane---you have fixed more complex probllems than this.

Last edited by Jack Crosby

Lane, I had  Pertronix billet dizzy like yours. Penny was running erratically.  Did everything you did. Tony checked the timing and the damn distributor would scatter as you revved the engine. 

Pulled off the Pertronix and put on an older 009 with a Pertronix module. That solved the problem, ignition-wise.

Throttle inconsistency was corrected by replacing the linkage.

 

I'm not saying my problem was the same but do check the timing at different RPMs.

As always, very late to the party.  Plus I went to get some popcorn a couple of times, as I know lane's threads are like that . . .

 

And have you guys been reading my posts?  Much of what Lane has described and gone though here I have seen.  A couple of ideas here:

A compression tester is easy and inexpensive, and needs to be applied.

Any multi-meter can tell you the voltages in the system; everybody ought to have one.  Just sayin'

 

Does this fancy-ass Pertronix whatever that you have put out a gazillion volts, as in way more than a regular system?  If so, it could be causing a break down of insulation somewhere, like at the corroded terminal, or along a plug wire somewhere.  Did I read that you now have new plug wires, and the corroded terminal is now replaced?  If so, and the problem persists, then I guess that was not it, huh?

 

Seems a bad coil would not be so cylinder specific, but what do I know??

 

And ditto on advice to be sure timing and advance vs. RPM is within spec. Need a timing light for that. And valve lash;  and try the HEET-sprayed-on-the-manifold-gasket trick.  When was the last time you checked to see if the nuts holding the manifold to the engine were nice and tight?

 

I suspect that your carbs are as clean as they can possibly be, but you never know.  My woes these past months have had me believing that one of the passages in the carb body (that is, not the idle jet per se) was jammed up in some fashion, despite my liberal use of carb cleaner sprayed in there eight ways to Sunday.  What seems to have happened in my case, is that if this was the case, then it got unclogged all by itself, or possibly with the addition of fresh gas (Sunoco ultra high test).  Can you rule out the bad-gas possibility? I do not think a clogged idle passage can be ruled out.  If one of those progressive fuel holes in the throat is dribbling fuel, vs. properly vaporizing it, then it will not run properly.  Gas will only burn if it is vaporized - liquid gas won't do the trick.

 

One last thing -- long shot: the more I read about crappy ethanol laced gasoline, the more I thought this was a real problem.  So, part of my carb tear-down, cleaning and so on was to replace all the fuel line from the filter to the carbs w/ specifically rated rubber hose w/ the SAE spec for resistance to alcohol, and other additives now seen in gas.  You can look this up on the net, as there is a TON of stuff there about how bad this can be.  The correct hose is available, but not so easy to find, and is sorta expensive, compared to the old style stuff. What you want to see on the side of the hose is "SAE 30R9".  This is suitable for fuel injected systems.

 

http://www.gates.com/oreilly/t...ps/R9HoseTechTip.pdf

 

http://www.amazon.com/Goodyear...mp;keywords=sae+30r9

 

Did someone say fuel injection??  I have come to believe that this is the answer.  I do not love my Webers.  At least not yet.

To recap, I have replaced the following:

  1. Carb base gaskets
  2. Idle jets
  3. Distributor cap
  4. Rotor
  5. Plug wires

I have swapped the plugs from #1 and #2 and the problem appeared to stay at #1.  I have also cleaned the air filters (they needed it).

 

After replacing the plug wires the problem appeared to go away for the first few seconds after I started the car.  When it returned, it was less consistent, going away occasionally, usually when at higher RPM.  Oh yeah, I almost always run ethanol-free gasoline.  I am below 1/4 tank and may fill up just to be sure I'm not getting schmutz from the bottom, but I hesitate to drive the car that far.

 

I am becoming suspicious of the distributor itself, as I have heard other folks like Terry have had problems with them.  I hope I didn't give away or throw away the original distributor.

 

As for the other checks, I suppose I'll either have to buy some more tools or I'll just bag it and have it flat bedded to a shop.  My time available to devote to this is limited and I am missing some spectacular weather.

I'm curious Lane (and I'm fishing here). Tell me about your wires-- are they the Bosch/NGK style that use the phenolic end and push on over small threaded studs, or are they the "American-style" bigger (Taylor) wires that push on over the nipple on a plug?

 

I'm back to the plug thing. Plugs are the number 1 thing you start with on any ignition problem, and it's the one thing you haven't replaced. I know access is difficult, but you've got to figure something out.

 

I had a similar gremlin one summer, when running the "better" (Taylor) 8 mm wires and NGK plugs. NGK plugs come with the stud for use with the standard 7 mm Bosch wires, and a thread-on adapter nipple for use with the American wires. My adapter nipples kept loosening up, making erratic contact with the actual plug electrode and causing rough running. I eventually gave up and went back to Bosch wires, and the problem magically went away.

 

Do you have a timing light? You'll need one to see timing scatter. You can't really track down (or tune) any ignition issue without one. They're a nice "old-school" tool to have, and you can put it in your box with pride-- knowing you are a certified retro-grouch for owning one.

Last edited by Stan Galat
I feel your pain Lane.  Driving season is over for me now, but while my car was down with trans issues and then brake issues during my driving season (which is way shorter than yours), I was bummed. 

You're way more mechanically inclined than me, but it's still tough diagnosing the problem without the right experience & tools. On top of that, finding time between work and family is hard.  Major issues for me would be a bump in the road for others.

On the bright side, every repair is another piece of knowledge gained....maybe that can be reused :-)

Stan - I have the Pertronix 7mm wires that come with the Flamethrower II billet distributor system.  They are not interchangeable with stock-type wires due to the different connectors on the cap.  I thought that by swapping #1 and #2 plugs I could eliminate that possibility, but I am game to try some new ones.  I found the right combination of u-joint and extensions to allow me access, albeit a bit restricted.  If I can locate the old plugs (think I still have 'em) I can put them in and check it out before getting some new ones.

 

I do have a good inductive timing light and can check to see what that looks like.  My gut is still telling me that it's ignition, so I hope we're on the right track.

 

Tom - I may be a little more mechanically inclined, but I find that may patience for problems like this is very limited.  That is an issue for me that I need to resolve.

Last edited by Lane Anderson

Stock gap is .024"

 

Some people  running a very high-output coil (50K-60K volts) open them up to .028" - .030" but if you have a "blue coil" just run them stock.

 

Samba has one of their usual "debates" over opening the gap for high-output coils with the usual amount of confusion as to benefits or lack thereof (with the usual amount of facts).  

 

"When in doubt, stock it out."  Nobody ever complains about running a stock gap.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

OK, so what is it and what is the purported output voltage??

 

Oh....And a loose plug wire adapter (as described by Stan up above) can cause random missing, especially in vibration zones of the engine, but just for that one cylinder.

 

So, if your coil is a Bosch "Blue" coil, I would still set the gap at .024"-.026".  Blue coils ain't all that "hot", all things considered, when the spark hits the combustion chamber.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols
Originally Posted by Lane Anderson - Mt. Pleasant, SC:

The coil is the Pertronix doohickey that matches the distributor.  I'll have to check it this evening to get the voltage, but I think it's 50K.  It's not a Bosch blue coil.

I'm getting more and more confident about the plugs. Get a new set and tighten the heck out of the nipples.

Watch out for "Leverage Lane"! Tighten your nipples, but don't over-tighten. I think I used a drop of Loctite on the threads on my nipples, as I have to use wires that fit my coilpack(Ford Escort believe it or not) and can't use the Bosch ends.

 

I mentioned voltage because electronic ignition is sometimes VERY sensitive to a low voltage situation. And varying or low fuel pressure can cause intermittent problems. I'm with Stan though, replace plugs. Put the old ones in, it ran fine with them.

 

I don't understand why you didn't swap the 1 and 2wire though, Lane. That seemed to me an easy  thing to do to see if it changed the bad cylinder.

Originally Posted by DannyP:

I believe it is a range from .024 to .028, Al. I run mine at .045" on my crankfire, oh the blasphemy!

Just looked it up in the orange Bentley manual (Beetle, Super Beetle and Karmann Ghia 1970-1979), Danny; .024" for carbureted and .028" for fuel injected engines. I only mentioned it because (iIrc) even the stock iginition system would support .028" and running at that gap was common practice, especially in modified engines.

 

A guy who knew a lot about ignition systems on the Samba suggested opening plug gaps until it started to misfire and then backing down one step as the way to find the biggest plug gap for any engine. He certainly knew more (not hard, as about all I know about anything electrical is you put your finger in the wrong place and it hurts!) than I did. If I get time I'll look for the thread(s) and post link(s).

 

And running at .045" isn't blasphemy, that's one healthy burn (and a wicked sprark)! 

 

Thought for the day- So when is this "old enough to know better" supposed to kick in?

Last edited by ALB

Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine, or maybe from hard experience, but here are some of the things I never re-use:

 

Gaskets - almost any kind, but I make an exception for O-rings.  Paper, fiber, composite, no matter how good they look they never get re-used. Easy to re-install, but take HOURS to find a bad one.

 

Condensers - they're cheap and show zero indication of being good or bad

 

Spark Plugs (You can't tell if they're good or bad)

 

Points - unless they've been re-faced with a points-specific file and are not "blued" (indicating overheating and possible warping).

 

I'm beginning to include some fuses, since my eyes are getting old and I can't tell if they're good.

 

Brake Fluid if it's been sitting for more than a month

 

Transmission oil/Motor Oil - Never re-used.  It's cheap.   Rebuilding is not.

 

I'm sure there are more things that should be on here, but this is a good start.

 

All this is kinda like good wine - It's great in its first use, not so hot if it's been "recycled".

 

Four new plugs with tight nipples.  Checked all other connections and checked sensor in distributor for looseness or signs of damage - no problems seen.  Car started and sounded fine, so I though I had it solved.  In the time it took to back the car out of the garage it started to miss intermittently.  Took it for a short drive and the problem seemed to come and go, although it was never perfect.  By the time I got back home the car would not idle at all.  I have no more time to work on it until this weekend.

  1. Could it be as simple as bad gas?
  2. Why does it start fine and sound good at first, deteriorating quickly over time?
  3. I can try the old coil, but it would be a test only as I am pretty sure it was failing when I replaced it.  Its failure mode seemed related to temperature so I should get a short ride in ok.  I'm not buying any more stuff unless I am fairly confident that I am not just throwing more money away.
Last edited by Lane Anderson

"I can try the old coil, but it would be a test only as I am pretty sure it was failing when I replaced it.  Its failure mode seemed related to temperature so I should get a short ride in ok."

 

Isn't that the failure symptom you're currently seeing?

 

Does the coil you're currently using have a "Ballast Resistor" in it?  If so, it is designed to give a much hotter spark (like 30%-40% hotter) when the engine is cold for better starts, and reduces spark voltage when it warms up, often within the first minute or less.  Does this sound familiar?  BTW:  The voltage provided by the coil has NOTHING to do with engine temperature.  The ballast resistor heats up as the coil is running and reduces voltage simply as a reaction to that increased in-coil temperature.  2'nd BTW:  If your coil is mounted on the vertical face of the fan, right near the disti, it is subject to heat soak, especially in hotter weather.  Try moving it to the Driver's inner fender wall with a slightly longer coil wire.  That move usually cures premature coil failure.

 

Sounds like a coil would be a good investment, even as a spare for your road kit.  As for that old one you removed before?  Trash can it.  You've already proven that it's bad.

Still noodling on this, minutes later.

 

Someone up above asked if the valves were adjusted properly - Leon, perhaps?  

 

I would just check the valve clearance for that one cylinder, just to put it behind me.

 

The going-faulty ballast resistor/coil could give misfires on one cylinder, but usually only if you had a weak circuit on that cylinder and you've already swapped out everything else in your secondary ignition circuit so a going-faulty ballast resistor should, theoretically, cause random misfires on all cylinders (and can really drive you nuts).

 

The fact that it's fine when you start it up and one minute later it starts misfiring tells me it's something temperature or run-time related and the only thing I can think of is that coil.

 

AND, I would probably try a different make coil, just for the hell of it.

 

Oh!  and if you turn in the air/fuel mixture screw on the offending cylinder to all the way in, what happens?

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

There no longer appears to be a single offending cylinder, which is confusing.   Perhaps that was a red herring.  The old coil would run great for 30 minutes to an hour in the heat before it would cut out unexpectedly, bringing the car to a stop.  The problem now seems to happen after a few seconds of clean running.  Any reinstallation of the old coil would be for test purposes only, just to see if the symptoms changed at all.  If so, a new coil is in order.  If not, it's probably something else.  If I replace it I will need another high energy coil to work with the distributor.

 

If this doesn't appear too be the problem I will check the valves.

Last edited by Lane Anderson

Could this possibly be a fuel delivery problem....   The Aztec Attack collapsed a brand new NAPA fuel filter and the symptoms were roughly as follows....  Car would crank and run fine, then would faintly miss during acceleration....  Day 2, crank and idle fine, spit on acceleration and sporadic miss while trying to maintain speed... Things got progressively worse each day until I pulled the line from the fuel filter and checked the delivery voulume, which sucked....  Removing the line from the tank gave about a 6 fold increase in volume....   Installed new electric pump and filter...   Problem solved...   Just a thought.

Every one of these cars seems to have their own Achilles heel.  Natalie's has been clutch and trans related (hopefully behind her).

Lane, your car has had a history of fuel issues dating backing to the earliest months when you couldn't drive due to registration issues.

Based on that, Leon's suggestion seems to make the most sense to me. 

Long term, it might be worth pulling the tank, cleaning it out (or replacing) and replacing the lines too. 

You will probably continue to have carb clogging problems until you do.
Stay the course. While anything is possible, what you describe sounds like a classic spark issue.

You know what a fuel problem feels/sounds/smells like. Good troubleshooting means following something all the way to the end. Bad troubleshooting is random guesses at unrelated problems.

It's either fuel, ignition, or mechanical. If it feels like ignition, exhaust the possibilities before moving on to other things.

New coil ordered, will be at parts store tomorrow.  Fingers crossed.

 

The only other remaining ignition possibility is the ignitor in the distributor.  At ~$145 I don't want to just buy one on a guess.  If the coil doesn't fix it I will check it with the timing light for steadiness of signal.  If that looks good I will investigate valves, etc.  Leon Chupp also suggested collapsing fuel line or filter, but it doesn't quite seem like fuel starvation.

I had to go out and buy more popcorn . . .

 

And so how about a philosophical question at this point: Do we really need the Pertronix extra super duty high voltage ignition systems to make these engines go?  I fully understand the need to go w/ breakerless (electronic) points, and have that in my 009 dizzy.  But otherwise, the cap, wires and coil (blue) are "stock" to the best of my knowledge.  So far, working fine.  Maybe the extra high output voltage of the system here is causing a dielectric breakdown in the HV circuit somewhere so the plug at the end is not firing like it should?

 

PS: during my carb problems, while all was apart, I elected to install a fuel pressure gage, not because I thought the pressure was bad, but because I wanted to be able to tell everyone who said I might have bad pressure feeding the carbs what the pressure actually is.  i.e., to be able to know for sure that this is not the problem.  Cute little thing -- somebody looked in there recently and asked if I had a nitrous system.  -??-  Anyway, my electric fuel pump is working fine, and delivering the proper low pressure like it should.  Maybe someday the pump will fail, and this gage will help me to know that.  Meantime, it just hangs there.  Lane's pump is likely doing fine -- but does he REALLY know that?  See what I mean . . .

Re. the Pertronix fancy-shmancy ignition: Nope.  I wouldn't do it again.  I thought I sensed a bit more power and smoothness when it was new, but I am on my second or third coil and about to get another.  This is the coil that Pertronix supplies with the ignition, not some mismatched thing from the local parts store.    In fact, the system included all of the ignition with the exception of the plugs, and the original plugs seemed fine when I replaced them in the spring.  In retrospect I don't think that the Pertronix system was worth the expense.

Originally Posted by Lane Anderson - Mt. Pleasant, SC:

Re. the Pertronix fancy-shmancy ignition: Nope.  I wouldn't do it again.  I thought I sensed a bit more power and smoothness when it was new, but I am on my second or third coil and about to get another.  This is the coil that Pertronix supplies with the ignition, not some mismatched thing from the local parts store.    In fact, the system included all of the ignition with the exception of the plugs, and the original plugs seemed fine when I replaced them in the spring.  In retrospect I don't think that the Pertronix system was worth the expense.

It's good to read your honesty above. I was reading this thread and started to wonder if the Pentronix system would be a good upgrade. Now that I'm upgrading to the 1915, I was wondering what I should do about the coil. Right now, the coil in my car is just an old non descriptive 'black' coil. Do I need to get something higher performance than this? Or do I stick with 'if it ain't broke?

 

Ted

Originally Posted by Lane Anderson - Mt. Pleasant, SC:

  Or maybe an EFI system.

This system has its problems too.  I struggled with mine (CB kit) for a couple of years, then, in frustration, pulled the engine.

The problem with EFI for air cooled engines is very few people know how to set it up properly and tune it.  Henry, at Intermeccanica, tried with mine and was unsuccessful.  So was the shop that built my engine.  I'm hoping that my present mechanic is able to set it up so it finally runs properly.

I'm not impressed with the CB EFI kit and would not recommend it to anyone, unless they're very comfortable working with this particular system.

 

I highly recommend Mario at The Dub Shop to anyone thinking about converting to an EFI system. My old Speedster had a Megasquirt system that was easy to install and was up and running in a day. Tuning is done with a laptop and is so simple that even I figured it out.

 

You can add crank-fired ignition as well and control it with the same Megasquirt controller and fine tune the ignition system.

 

I've not had an aircooled car in over a year now and am sure there's more out there today than there was last year but if you want something that works great and has great support, check into Megasquirt.

Last edited by Jimmy

Wow - that is pricey. When I did my EFI conversion about 3 years ago, I ran the Megasquirt 1 (version 2.2) system and the total with crank fired ignition and all was roughly $1000.

 

I was lucky enough to sell my Dellorto's for $500 and my MSD ignition setup for $150 so it didn't hurt the pocketbook much and was the best move I made in the 11 years that I owned the car.

 

 

Many may call this a step backwards or even lean towards Blasphemy but I wonder sometimes if it might be worthwhile to consider a center mount, single Weber 32/30 or something and get over all the linkage problems as well as the clogged jet problems too and whatever else. This comment is not directly related to Lane.

 

I know....dual carbs are cool, neat to look at and are really fun to tune. How much power would one lose going from dual to single ? Too much lost in the manifold runners ? Like crazy lots of loss ? Is it a matter of having the appearance of larger or smaller balls or what ?  :-)

 

I've put about 30,000 miles on a Weber 32/30 over the last three years with rarely a burp. Kinda set it and forget it with half decent mileage too. The Megajolt ignition thing works well for me too. Still having trouble keeping windshields in the car though.....

Last edited by David Stroud IM Roadster D

Don't want to hijack Lane's thread, but a single center-mount carb like the one you mentioned or a Holley 450 or Autolite 2500 would be perfect.  Power loss would be minimal, IMO and jetted right it would be really minimal.

 

Apart from the "Macho-ness" of dual carbs on a flat four or trying to look "period correct", there really isn't any reason to run them.

 

Heck- I had a single 4-barrel on my Corvair powered dune buggy!

 

The only issue I can think of is availability of intake manifolds.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

Aside from looking really cool, duals have some real advantages in carbureted applications. Cylinders burn an air/fuel mixture. Ideally, the fuel is completely atomized as it enters the cylinder. Anything that causes atomized fuel to drop out of the mixture and "pool" is really undesirable.

 

Fuel is atomized in the carburetor, and the change of state from a liquid to a vapor actually has a sensible cooling effect. Coler temperatures cause vapors to condense. The higher the intake manifold temperature (after the fuel is atomized), the better chance the fuel has of remaining vaporized.

 

In a dual carb application-- the intakes sit right on top of the really hot heads, and they pick up a lot of the heat. The intake runners are short, and pretty toasty. Tehy get hot enough that in some applications, guys will use a phenolic, non heat-conducting insulator between the intake (where heat is good), and the carb (where it's not so good).

 

With duals, the intake length is identical on all 4 cylinders and that length is more appropriately tuned to match the engine's power range. There are a lot of advantages.

 

In a single carb configuration-- it's a L O N G way from the throttle plates to the intake valves, and there's a lot of chance for the fuel to drop out of suspension. As I mentioned, the change of state of liquid fuel to vapor actually refrigerates the intake as well. Without heat from the heads, intake manifold icing is a big problem. 

VW had the funky cross-over tube to keep the intake manifold from icing up. No decent sized exhaust has 'em. The EMPI 1-3/8" headers have provision for them... but the way they are constructed, they don't work most of the time.

 

It is hypothetically possible to have a bigger header fabricated with the provision for heat risers. While you are at it, you'll need to fabricate an entire intake system to match up to it. Don't forget that every stroker engine combination is a different width.

 

In an EFI engine, all of these issues with a single throttle body don't matter, because the fuel isn't injected until it's almost at the intake port (ideally). Actually, it actually works better with a single TB, because there is nothing to synchronize. But as Gordon pointed out, the existing end bells are pretty inadequate for 2L+ engines (from a flow standpoint).

 

The existing end-bells are the cat's meow on an injected, turbo motor, as the size doesn't really matter (the intake charge is under pressure).

 

So... in other words, the single-carb thing has been tried. It's a lot of work to get it to work right. When it does, it's really only fit for smaller engines. If you want to do that, I'd just get a modified Mexican Beetle injection system running MegaSquirt.

 

Duals really aren't that hard in comparison, and they make a LOT more power for the same amount of work. They're actually pretty hard to beat.

Last edited by Stan Galat

You make a lot of good points, Stan but your second to last paragraph is something I cannot agree with.

 

You know far more about engines than I do but please understand this. Some expert built me a 1915 cc engine near Baltimore and it came with a Weber 32/36 and it got me from Sacramento to Carlisle with nary a burp a couple of years ago with a lot of diversions along the way.

 

Not knowing any better, I later installed a 2,200 cc Soob engine with the same carb again center mounted. Strangely, after a very simple tune,  it ran just as well for about 20 or 30 thousand miles without adjustment.

 

I did get an oil pressure sensor switched out in Vegas and a speedo cable replaced in Albuquerque on that earlier trip with the 1915. . From zero altitude in Cali to about 8,000 feet in Colorado and back down to Carlisle across the US.

 

A single, center mount 32/36 ( about $220US  ) works, plain and simple. Different strokes for different folks. What do you really need ? It's up to you...a single Weber 32/36 can work easily but can you bear to open your hood and show it to the experts  ????

 

 

Soob engine install finished

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Last edited by David Stroud IM Roadster D

Yeah, maybe it got lost in my verbiage, but the three most reliable, problem free aircooled engines I have ever had, all had single, center-mount carbs.  One Autolite, one Holley and one Carter 4-barrel (on the Corvair).

 

All had intake pre-heaters (to Stan's point about icing), taken off of the exhaust pipes, not the heads.  The 2-barrel versions actually produced noticeably more power than a pair of Zenith 36's I had been running before.  Bolted them on and never again touched them For years.

 

but those were on a Beetle sedan or in Open rear Dune Buggies.  Stuffing a single into a Speedster engine compartment is a challenge.  It can and has been done, but those short/lower intake manifolds are really hard to find.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

If I had it to do over again I'd go with a good set of reconditioned Dells.

 

I didn't have much luck with the two sets of Weber carbs I had on my older engines (40s and 44s), but ran a set of Kadrons on my old Beetle for 60,000 miles without a hiccup.  I cleaned the air filters on a regular basis and had them adjusted every year or two...that was it.

Last edited by Ron O
Originally Posted by David Stroud Ottawa Canada '83 IM Soob:

You make a lot of good points, Stan but your second to last paragraph is something I cannot agree with.

 

You know far more about engines than I do but please understand this. Some expert built me a 1915 cc engine near Baltimore and it came with a Weber 32/36 and it got me from Sacramento to Carlisle with nary a burp a couple of years ago with a lot of diversions along the way.

That's great, Dave. In no way did I want to come across as saying it couldn't be made to work-- just that it's generally more difficult.

 

If I might ask-- did your 1915 have heat risers? Generally, if a single works well, it has a functioning heat riser set-up (since the intakes can't be heated from the heads as they are in duals). I know nothing about Subarus, so I have no idea why yours worked so well-- but I can say from the picture that the nice, short, equal-length intake manifold (made out of heat-transferring AL) had to help. As a total aside, I'd probably have done the same thing (at least initially) if I were doing a Subaru transplant. Did you use mega-jolt for the ignition, or some other package?

 

The ostensible purpose of my narrative tale was to explain how something as complicated and compromised as the dual carb set-up the vast majority of the hobby runs came to be the standard hi-po configuration. It does look cool but there are some solid reasons why it came to be preferred.

 

All that goes out the window with EFI. The preferred set-up there would be a single throttle-body, and injectors into the ports at the end-bells of the intakes.

Last edited by Stan Galat

Well the new coil didn't improve anything.  There are really only two more things in the ignition system that are possible: the ignitor is failing, or the timing is way off.  I decided to check the carbs again and listened to the driver side one.  There is a distinct "chuffing" sound from one cylinder so I removed, disassembled, and cleaned it again, with no effect.  I thought about vacuum leaks, but could find no evidence of anything.  That carb base gasket is new and all bolts are tight.  It's mid/upper 80s and humid (mid-October?) and I don't feel like staying out in it all afternoon.  I've got a million things to do around the yard but since I will be out next weekend I guess I need to spend some more time on the thing in the garage (weekend #4) or I may as well give up on the fall season.

 

Frankly the idea of pilling the carbs off again makes me want to puke.  If I could get it to run well enough to tune them I'd try that, but right now I can't.  

 

So, what is timing supposed to be?  I have a lot of trouble keeping it idling, so this could be difficult.  Any other ideas?

It was specific to one cylinder (#1) for a while, but that has now changed.  I am probably chasing at least two problems, at least one of which I probably caused when I removed some stuff to fix a rattle in the shroud.

 

I'll check timing tomorrow and maybe just take the carbs back to baseline and try to tune them.  The "chuffing" sound has me a bit confused, though.

Hey!  Isn't there an active VW club in Charleston?  If so, I would find out how to contact them (they may have their own website like this) and see if you can get some help.  Especially when it comes to "borrowing" something like a Pertronics Ignitor to try out.  Most club people are just like us and can't wait to help on something like this.

 

This trial-and-error gets expensive after a while.  I probably spent close to a Grand trying to find why my car shuddered between 65-70 mph.  After all that, I find it had a slightly defective differential (a "Super-Diff", no less).  Once that was swapped, it miraculously cured itself.

 

I think I would be real close to getting the car to that guy on the other side of town who works on VW's (Ken something?  It's been a while) and just say; "Fix it!"

 

"Chuffing" through the carb is usually an intake leak.  Is it on the #1-2 side?

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

The problem is that the only two decent air-cooled mechanics around are 30 miles away.  I can't drive the car that far and I the cost of a flatbed would be annoying, but I may end up doing that.  I haven't stayed much in touch with the local VW crowd because they all live on the other side of town from here.  Go figure.

 

The chuffing is on the #3-4 side.  New base gasket.  I suppose the manifold itself could be a little loose.  Guess I'll see if I can check that without pulling the carb for the 3rd or 4th time.

 

It'll be several weeks before I could get it flatbedded somewhere because of other things on the schedule.  Maybe it'll be running again by Thanksgiving.

Last edited by Lane Anderson

Yup, 1-4-3-2.  If all the checks I do tomorrow come up negative I'm probably getting a new ignitor.  Unfortunately my experts are not in agreement as Cory says that he doesn't think it sounds like ignition.  At this point I am not certain of anything.  Anyway, tomorrow I can:

  1. Check the timing
  2. Check the intake manifold for tightness and the gasket for solidity
  3. Pull the valve covers and look for something more serious
  4. Anything else????????

 

I still wonder if I broke something when I removed stuff to fix the rattle.  If that's the case, it has to be something that I could have broken, which is not likely to be the ignitor.  Then again, I might have caused more problems which shotgunning stuff.  My confidence in my diagnostic abilities is pretty low at the moment.

As expected the valves are fine.  However, this looks an awful lot like a smoking gun to me.  This was under the #3/4 intake manifold.  The other side was fine but I'll be replacing them both.  The nuts were still plenty tight, a function of the Threadlocker I used.  Probably screwed this one up during installation and it's been deteriorating over the last year or so.

 

One question: I've heard two different things about what sealer to use on these.  One person says gasket sealer (like I used the first time) while the other says just to use wheel bearing grease.

 

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Last edited by Lane Anderson

Lane--that's exactly what mine looked like when I was getting deceleration backfiring at Carlisle.  when it was like this before replacing it, there was no response at all when turning the idle mixture screws.  The good side would respond to idle mixture screw adjustments.

 

The torn gasket allowed air to be sucked into the engine and when the carb cleaner got sucked into that air and reached the engine, it clearly wood speed up.

 

You wonder how a gasket could tear like that when you put it on and tighten the nuts---without any twisting motion, it's hard to see how the gasket became torn.  PITA!!!!

 

I hope you are at the end of this quest.

 

I think you found the trouble.  Do you have new gaskets?

Last edited by Jack Crosby

I'll have to order new gaskets and it will be at least a week before I have a chance to put them in.  I'll be up in the mountains some of next week and the whole weekend.  Maybe a week from Monday when I get home.

 

I believe what happened is that this was building for a while but I probably did mess up the spark plug wire on #1 when I was fixing the rattle in the shroud.  Why this decided to pick now to become more significant will remain a mystery.  Probably just sad coincidence.   The ensuing ignition problem search was a diversionary tactic to keep me off the road.  Maybe the universe was telling me I should drive the Speedster one day.  We'll never know.

Regular automotive grease, Molybdenum or whatever.

 

Put a nice even coat on both sides.

 

Let them sit a few hours, like during the day or overnight (ask Kelly), to let the material absorb the grease and swell a bit.

 

Wipe off excess and install as-is, NO Permatex. Make sure you have thoroughly removed whatever silicon gasket goop was on there (both surfaces).

 

I don't use Locktite on the manifold studs, or nylon insert nuts, preferring to use regular nuts and lockwashers instead, Because that is easier to assemble.

 

If you can, install just the manifolds first, then the carbs on top of the manifolds - this minimizes torquing of the assembly and premature head-to-manifold gasket leaks.

 

If the carbs are already installed on the manifolds, I would leave them alone but if they're already on there, remove the linkage from the carbs, install the carb/manifold as an assembly (both sides) THEN install the linkage.  That way, you get no false torquing of the assemblies during install. (And yes, I know you have a Bellcrank linkage system).

 

Glad you're making headway.  Sounds just like what Dr. Frazer went through.

Lane,

 

They'll be on their way in the morning.

 

If your heads are ported, you'll need to trim the gaskets to match. Other guys seem to be able to do this without a buch of fuss, but it always gave me a lot of grief. I finally figured out a trick way of trimming them to fit the manifolds.

 

Until recently, I would try to do a tracing, then trim with an exacto knife. The last set I did by bolting the gasket to the manifold with a couple of 5/16"x 1" bolts and nuts. Once the gasket is secure on the manifold, I just used the exacto knife to trim the gasket to match the manifold, while it was in place. I treated it like I was peeling something away. If you do it this way, you'll want to be careful not to gouge the AL on the manifold port, but I made the last set in 10 minutes, and they were perfect. Every other set I've ever done took an hour or two, and looked pretty imperfect.

 

Your mileage may vary, but give it a try if you want to.

 

Either way, they will be in the mail tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Lane Anderson - Mt. Pleasant, SC:
 

...Why this decided to pick now to become more significant will remain a mystery.  Probably just sad coincidence...

 

Lane, you surprise me.

 

You must know by now that nothing that happens to these cars is a coincidence.

 

A small percentage of problems may be due to delayed maintenance, unskilled wrenching, or worn parts, but the overwhelming cause of mechanical failure in Speedsters is good weather.

 

 

Lane,

 

As i posted previously I was having problems with my 1914 similar to yours and I found the culprit so this may help you. I checked everything I could think of-Compression,FP pressure,valves,timing, plugs, wires dist cap and rotor(I have electronic ignition) coil, idle  & hi speed jets and all are ok. What I found was the brass seat on #2 idle mixture adj. was stuck to the needle.(Weber IDF 40s) It took 3 tries but I finally roughened up the outside of the seat and tapped it back in place-press fit as far as I can see. I  didn't bottom out the adj. screw when I put it back but eyeballed it . I was able to get correct reading on the flowmeter(snail) , all 4 cyl were firing at idle so I went for a drive. For the 1st half hour the engine was smooth, no intermittent hesitation,plenty of power(my problem was always on idle circuit). Then it started to backfire so i stopped and leaned down #2-backfire gone! Luckily I can access #2 adjs and jets without removing the carb which as you know is a big pia. I got home ok after along ride and one more mixture and idle speed adj. The engine is running pretty good but not quite as well as when I started. I will have to check that brass seat again but enough for today. These cars do check our ingenuity and patience- hope my experience helps you.

 

Joel

Good old George Brown (an unknown entity to many now on here) told me about the Chapstick trick, and it is, indeed, a terrific moisturizing delivery device Because, after all, what you're trying to do is apply moisture to the gasket material to get the surface to swell and become pliable to fill any imperfections in the mating surfaces.  Chapstick works OK for this.

 

What I have migrated to is a marinade injector syringe in place of the Chapstick tube.  Cut off the pointed tip of the syringe needle back above the top injection hole (I just used a Dremel tool and cut-off wheel), load up the syringe with your choice of grease and squirt a well-defined bead around the gasket where ever you want.  Once beaded, just squish out the bead to cover the material and let it set to moisten the gasket (I just hang them on a wire).  I have found that doing this with a standard-thickness gasket seems to seal better than one of those "thicker/mushier" gaskets sold to supposedly seal better. 

 

I like it better than Chapstick because I can choose what grease gets applied - wheel bearing, CV joint, synthetic or regular molybdenum, it's up to me and the application.

 

Remember, too, that the head-to-manifold gasket takes a lot more torque stress than any other gasket on the engine because of the long torque-arm of the carb/manifold assembly.  That arm tries to shake about, torquing the lower manifold flange back and forth so you really don't want an overly thick gasket in there.....it just gets bashed down and then leaks.  Standard thickness, composite gasket material, properly moistened with grease, works just fine.

 

Try it - You'll like it.  No muss, no fuss.  "Cajun Gourmet" syringe or anything you can find at better BBQ stores is fine.  The needle usually has a 1/8" ID.....just perfect.

 

After use on your gaskets, DO NOT inject any marinade with it.......Jus sayin.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

Didn't anybody read my great long protracted thread about being defeated??  Same title applies to Lane -- read his later postings here, and he is sounding definitely defeated.  He'd rather go mow the lawn than keeping diddling w/ his car to no avail -- man, oh man, can I relate . . .

 

Lane: did you use the starter-fluid-sprayed-at-the-manifold trick?  Or just take the damn thing apart to have a look-see?

 

In case there are some here who were not looking at my thread, Pic attached is what I found when I lifted my carb/manifold.

 

I used the Five-cent Racing/ Dr. Clock Old School method of wheel bearing grease liberally applied and let sit overnight.  Sucked up so much of the grease that I coated them again.  I did this despite Mr. Piperato's very vocal insistence that I use Loctite anerobic gasket maker #518 and the primer that goes with it #7471, which if properly done he claims by vast experience to work flawlessly, and permanently.  My only defense is that I could not find a good place to buy this stuff on-line, and I was ready to go, so used the grease.  I did find an on-line retailer, and ordered some, it is now on station, in case I go there again.

 

Another note: Be sure to tighten the nuts here gradually, taking them down  a little on one side, then the other.  Once all set and as snug as you can get them, run for a while, and get them hot and then cool, and then re-torque them -- I bet you will find they will take up a bit more.  I'd say an annual tightening of these nuts should be normal, proper procedure.  I am using the 10 mm hex flange nuts here, and a lock washer.

 

About the re-tightening:  I tooled over to Drake's Garage after getting everything back together, and checked the tightness of the nuts after a bit of cooling.  Three of the nuts took up some more tightening, and the fourth one was - - - missing!!  WTF?  Got so loose, even w/ lock washer, that it fell off after about 30 mins of driving.  Do not repeat this mistake.

P1020091

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I might not have been clear there about the Loctite:  Danny uses the fiber gaskets and coats with the Loctite/primer material.  Loctite says you can use this stuff plain as is, i.e., w/ no gasket needed -- metal to metal.  I do not know of anybody who has tried that, but I think it would work just fine.  If their claim about sealing is correct, you'd end up w/ a very thin gasket, capable of dealing with all that bending moment of the flange, seems to me.  Has anybody tried this stuff "bareback", so to say? Without a fiber gasket?

You must have some serious vibration, Kelly, to have lost a nut (hee hee!) in a short drive.  I used a bit of Threadlocker when I put mine on last year and all four were still very tight.  I am using the same flanged 10mm nuts with flat washer and lock washer that you are.

 

Even so, I plan to do an annual check of these, and if I notice unexplained roughness again, I am willing to test either with carb cleaner spray or direct visual inspection.  By the way, I used the latter procedure this time.

 

Many thanks to Kelly and Cory for the long phone conversations on Sunday discussing possibilities for diagnosis.  As always, the folks on this site rock!

Actually, looking at your manifold ports, mine are somewhat larger holes with a much narrower piece between the ports.  Because of that, I had a hard time keeping gaskets in there (it kept sucking the narrow piece out between ports) so I faced the manifold flanges (rubbed across a piece of sandpaper on a sheet of glass to make them flat) and used Locktite Flange Sealer on them, sans gaskets.   That's been working for a few years, now (like 6 or 7, I guess) but it was only a last resort.  If I had more "regular" ports, the gaskets would have worked just fine.

Glad you found it Lane! I hope you ordered more than 1 pair. You should always have a couple extra sets of these, carb top and exhaust gaskets around. I have heard of people dropping the manifold to head gaskets altogether and just going with gasket goop but have never tried it; I found the carbs benefited from being somewhat insulated from the heat of the head and and at one time used 1/4" bakelite spacers (with gaskets on both sides, of course).

 

And yes, Kelly, I followed your saga. 

 

PS- Of course, I finish my post and Gordon's done it!

Last edited by ALB

OK, wrt the little thin isthmus of gasket between the two ports:  Some will be larger and some will be smaller (and the one's mother gives you don't do anything at all. Ask Alice . . .) oops, slipped a track there.  I think using thin gaskets, coated with the Loctite materials mentioned, carefully applied, is the RIGHT way to assure that this little section remains in place.  Gordon pointed out once in a previous note that if all that goes hinky is this little short section, the two intakes will still be sealed from the outside, but also communicating with each other and making running poor.  In this case the starter fluid spray trick would not register any problem.  Fiendish, I say.

Ok, I have had the gaskets from Stan (thanks, Mr. President-for-life!) coated in grease overnight.  Today I will reassemble.  I'm sure I'll need to retune the carbs, but I haven't messed with the settings, so I don't expect it to be too far off.

 

EDIT:  Oh yeah, Stan, I didn't need to enlarge the ports at all, in fact the ports on the gaskets are very slightly larger than the ports on the heads.  I did have the trim the outsides so that they would fit, but that was easy, if not particularly pretty.  Thanks again for the freebie.

Last edited by Lane Anderson

Well F**K!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Yes folks, that means it still isn't solved.  It will now idle and you can drive it below about 50 MPH, but the chuffing is still there and it still runs like s**t most of the time.  It is possible that I broke the gasket on the 3/4 side installing it, so I am going to order some more and try again...  sometime.  If that's not it, I am completely out of airspeed, altitude, and ideas, as a former pilot friend of mine once said.

 

I'm open to ideas up to and including explosive devices.

Lane--Tom is right----no one admires your persistence and ability more than I do.  I have sen you do some amazing repairs that most of us wouldn't even think about attempting BUT-----it's time to locats someone who is a wizard on aircooled engines and let him fix it.  remark about  They are out there and as big as Charleston is surely there's someone around you could trust, who could do the work. Or Columbia, or Savannah.

 

I found a guy here in Hot Springs that I know can fix anything on my engine and also an old timer who knows how to align the bront end of my car.  (He's so good that he knew to make the front toe 1/32 " rather than the book's 1/8"-1/16" to nciompensate for steel belted radials!)

 

Get help!  You are a damned great wrench but it's time to GET HELP! 

Last edited by Jack Crosby

Well, you probably did it right, and the gasket is fine, but since you have a smidgen of doubt, better go check it.  I found the re-install to be pretty easy: put the gasket on the engine, put the manifold on the gasket (w/ or without carb attached -- mine was attached), tighten gradually, and all should be good as far as the gasket is concerned.  While the carb is out and in your hand, go through the idle jet cleaning thing and spray the ever-loving' crap out of the passages in the body. After back together, and if it will drive, take it to the gas station and get fresh petrol. As reported, my car went together OK, and ran much better, but was still having trouble w/ mild missing, and the chuffing you mention.  After about 1/2 a tank of gas spent in that condition, went to Sunoco and filled up w/ their uber-premium.  Everything was good after that. I can't say exactly why, but favorite theory is that there was still a blockage of some sort in one or another idle jet passage (there are several), and it finally was freed up.  One might/could say it fixed itself.  Funky business here. Exactly what goes hinky when yopu have "bad gas" I don't know, and my experience may well be just a confounding coincidence, but there it was.

 

Gordon is probably going to say check that the manifold is perfectly flat, and if not, make it so.  I suppose one assumes the engine side is flat.  Not sure I'd know how to check that w/ engine in-situ.  Maybe somebody here does.  And Danny is going to say: use the freekin' Loctite stuff, and only do this one more time, and never again.  My feeling is that the fiber gaskets can take up a certain amount of non-flat-ness; how much is too much?  I dunno . . .

 

And I thought I heard a vague sound the other day, seemed to come from a southerly direction.  Could not make it out, precisely, but it seemed almost human, and was filled with angst.  Just sayin' . . .

 

Kelly

Last edited by El Frazoo

Nope, nothing from me.  If it worked well once then the head and manifold are reasonably flat or within normal tolerances and I would mess with them.  

 

I have no quarrel with using Permatex Blue on intake gaskets.  The only thing I don't like is cleaning everything up after you have to take them apart for any reason - the gaskets usually break into several pieces and those stick like crazy but, usually, when you smear an even coat of Blue RTV onto the gasket, wait a few minutes for it to skin than then put everything together they seal....period.

 

Good luck....

Valve clearance is perfect.  I felt the gasket on the bad side give as I was putting it on, hence my concern about breaking it.  If it's broken in the middle (my suspicion), the spray test won't show anything.  I've gotten so adept at removing carbs and manifolds now that it's probably the easiest thing to do.  I haven't yet checked the timing, as yesterday was the first time the car ran well enough to do so, but by then I was tired of it.  These are the last two things I know to do.

 

Ok, so if it's neither of these, I could have a badly surfaced manifold or head.  The manifold had an oddity that makes me think the former could be an issue.  When I pulled it off, I noticed that the (not sure how to describe this so bear with me) edges of the port on the bottom of #3 were pulled down a bit into a lip or ridge.  Thinking that it would potentially prevent the manifold from fully seating against the head I used a dremel to carefully level out the lip, and then completed surfacing with fine grit sandpaper.  That may well be related to the continued problem as it is unlikely that the surface is as perfect as it was when the manifold was made.

 

If that ain't it, how do I determine a head or valve problem?

Originally Posted by Lane Anderson - Mt. Pleasant, SC:

Which is done how?

With a leak-down tool (it's a link, click it).

 

$40, less 20% with the coupon that is everywhere. You'll be out the door, on your way for $40 total-- tax, title, and license included.

 

Alternately, you could do a compression text (with a compression tester). It won't tell you as much, but it's $22 (plus the discount, etc.) and you don't need an air compressor, if that's an issue.

 

Buy some tools. Then you'll know. 

This is a long thread and I haven't gone back thru all of it Lane but you noted that the manifold may not be flat. Have you run a straight edge across the head (s)  to check that too ? Others with ideas....could the manifold be flattened with sandpaper of varying grits on something flat like a piece of glass ?

 

Man..this is a tough one, Lane but you'll get 'er done and teach us something to boot.

Lane,

 

Please take this as I intend it. You're a good guy, but you seem to be of two minds here.

 

Whether you want to admit it or not, you like working on your own car-- or you at least find yourself in the position of needing to. You need tools to work on cars. Period. Even guys that have decent shops within striking distance need a fairly basic shop to do stuff. A compressor is a very, very basic shop tool-- along with a vice and a floor-jack and a grinder of some sort. Welders, torches, battery charges, A:F meters, etc. are all nice, but you can probably get it done without. You just need a compressor.

 

I tend to go overboard on stuff like this, but I've got an 80 gal upright, pressure lube compressor, piped all over the garage. It's not fancy-- it cost less than $400 when I watched the sales. I've got hose reels from Harbor Freight in all the corners. I've worked my way up the food-chain to get to this point, but I had a standard compressor when I made $10/hr, so it can't be about money.

 

What I have is extreme, but it allows me to do lots of stuff. An air-compressor is not just about putting air in your bike tires-- getting something big enough allows you to take your shop to a completely different level. I can run air-tools, including an impact gun big enough to hammer on the axle nut to 450 lb/ft. I can paint with an HVLP gun. I can powder-coat. I have a blast cabinet that allows me to media blast parts, etc.

 

... and I can buy and use a leak-down tool for less than $40, without wondering about how I'm going to get it done. Accumulating some tools keeps stuff like this issue with your engine from becoming a protracted nightmare. Tools allow you to find out what is wrong and fix it. Along with opposable thumbs, tools separate us from the apes.

 

You are a smart guy, and you want to know what is wrong with your car. I can tell you with some certainty that at this point in history-- you may be able to hire somebody to work on your cart who has better tools, but not somebody with more native intelligence.

 

... but you need tools to figure this out.

Last edited by Stan Galat
Originally Posted by edsnova - Baltimore - BCW 52 MG TD:

OK man but apes also use tools and have thumbs.

Yeah, apes have thumbs-- but they aren't truly opposable. And I would postulate that using a stick to poke an ant hole is not quite the same thing as building a computer that fits in my shirt pocket.

 

"Almost" opposable thumbs and tools get you foraging in a rain forest, not building a V12 with EFI.

 

We really are unique.

Gotta love Harbor Freight, right MikeIB?

 

Stan, you are correct about the tools and about me being of two minds about the car. I won't go into that here other than to say I am considering additional investments in it very carefully.  Anyway, I have friends with considerably more resources and am picking up both a compression tester and a leak-down tester today.  Given the car collection quality of their owner, I am not worried about the tool quality (no HF!).  As for the compressor,  I may look for a small one, but for this weekend I can limp the car over to another friend's house nearby that has a nice garage and a good compressor.

 

And I really enjoy thread drift.

Last edited by Lane Anderson
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