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Todd M posted:
edsnova posted:

When (not if, when) a swing car's rear axle "jacks" during S-turn maneuvers at medium or high speed, a very ..."

 

 

@edsnova

Are there modifications to the swing axle suspension that can keep it from jacking?

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2819.htm

I have this on my car and it really performs well. The tires will break loose and slide before the axle tucks under the car. Ask me how I know.

Last edited by Robert M
Robert M posted:
Todd M posted:
edsnova posted:

When (not if, when) a swing car's rear axle "jacks" during S-turn maneuvers at medium or high speed, a very ..."

 

 

@edsnova

Are there modifications to the swing axle suspension that can keep it from jacking?

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2819.htm

I have this on my car and it really performs well. The tires will break loose and slide before the axle tucks under the car. Ask me how I know.

That’s the one to get! Have it on my Speedster and now the Coupe...

WOLFGANG posted:

Rick - Does the missing cutout piece of the rear trailing arm get welded back in for strength or to keep water out --- or is that not necessary. I tried to find the article in HotVW from 1994 with no luck.

Yes it should be, Greg. Rick probably wasn't finished at that point. If anyone is interested, I'll post the Hot VW's article on narrowing irs trailing arms later.

ALB posted:
WOLFGANG posted:

Rick - Does the missing cutout piece of the rear trailing arm get welded back in for strength or to keep water out --- or is that not necessary. I tried to find the article in HotVW from 1994 with no luck.

Yes it should be, Greg. Rick probably wasn't finished at that point. If anyone is interested, I'll post the Hot VW's article on narrowing irs trailing arms later.

That is correct.  I plated the front and welded in a gusset on the back side.  

For those that didn't notice, that transmission is a late model Bus box with a Gene Berg type 1 nose cone conversion.  These transmissions are much stronger than a type 1, but unfortunately no tall ring and pinions are available for them. Not good for highway cruising.

Car was sold long ago and resides somewhere in Europe now.

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chines1 posted:

The aforementioned coupe with the Beck MSO did come through my shop, but I was only a broker on those 7 cars.  They were produced by a friend's company in China, and were intended to be electric, but did not get approval in China for an electric vehicle, so they had to sell them.  We had them shipped to the states and brokered the sales and provided invoices and MSOs.  That was the extent of our involvement in this coupes.

Another stainless showing up:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-...bafff35175%7Ciid%3A1

s-l1600

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That is a lovely car, I really like the colour and the roof slope, no gutters. 

Who did the reno build ?  Thanks for posting .

I went back and found the link on Rod Emory's site and it looks like it is a speedster but the window seems to be slopped more, I am not sure but is comes with a custom made hardtop that is extremely well done for slope. Emory site link

Love the look of that car does anyone know more info on it. 

Last edited by IaM-Ray

Todd wrote: “It looks like there is either no window trim or the window trim is painted black on some outlaws.  Does anybody know which it is?  Or do you think both; deleted on some and painted black on others?”

Well, all of the various shiny trim bits for coupes didn’t exist unless you bought really expensive used or reproduction parts.  Carey, at Special Edition, had a cost-effective source for many of those parts, but the guy died so they put their coupe project on the back burner for a while.

John Steele became the only guy building 356 coupes back then and when he couldn’t find sources for window trim he simply deleted it and just left the black rubber glass gaskets in place.  He also deleted the unobtanium rear quarter window hinges and latches, making them just captive windows with no shiny trim.  The overall 👀 look tended to be a bit “unfinished”, but the alternative was to find someone to tool up the needed trim and that takes time.  Eventually he (and, in parallel, Carey Hines at Special Edition) found sources for coupe trim bits and they began appearing on cars 2 or 3 years ago.

So........   That’s why some (early) coupes have black window trim and other (later) cars have nice, shiny trim.  Except for the old Envemo coupes which predated all this stuff and had immaculate trim bits (made, I think, by Carey’s guy down in Brazil before he passed).  

Troy Sloan posted:

Tell us more about the car. 

It is one of the bodies that was built by Beck in China.  Has a stainless steel frame, beefed up bus transaxle, normally aspirated 2.5 Subaru, no radiator, and needs a lot of stuff and work.  I don't know when the engine last ran, so tomorrow I will turn the crank.  Do you think I should squirt anything in the cylinders to keep the rings and cylinders lubed?  I don't know when I can get it running.  It came with the ECU and  attendant harness.  Came with part of the exhaust, but I don't think all of it.  I need to install the steering column, and that has me a bit confused.  I have the piece with 2 u-joints to connect the rack and pinion to the column, but there is a bigger diameter tube that from my vantage looks like it goes over the approx. 5/8" diameter steering rod, but the two mounting bearings do not fit over the tube.  I will attach photos later to make it more understandable.  It came with two 914 seat buckets, but no upholstery, at lease none that is useable.  The engine is temporarily mounted, and I will need to install more permanent mounts.  That is a shame because I have no welding skills.  The rear suspension is part swing axle, but no torsion tube or torsion bars.  Instead it has coil overs.  The sump is hanging way to low, so I will have to buy a shallower pan,  If I had my druthers, I would go dry sump, but the cost is prohibitive.  It has all the glass, but no rubber or trim.  If you want to give me the low down on where to purchase rubber and trim, I would be grateful.  So far, it seems frightfully expensive.  It came with an unmounted fuel cell, but it does not fit anywhere without some modification, so ... who knows what I will do with it, ..., kind of depends on where I fit the radiator.

It was originally designed to run on electric power and the spacing behind the seats is much less than a regular coupe.  The good news on that is that there is enough room to run a turbo, intercooler, all the plumbing, and Subaru 5/6 speed.  Those will be in the future.  I want to get it drivable first and then start playing.  I will post photos of the engine/transaxle compartment, so you know what I am talking about.

The swing axle concerns me, but I will keep on researching work arounds.  I watched a 356 race and they did not seem to have any jacking problems.  Any and all opinions are welcome.  Presently it has Fuchs style wheels and I like 'em, ..., alot.  There are only two lug bolts installed per each wheel with the other 3 spaces empty, and I had a bit of a quandary figuring out what to order.  I took one off, but it was the cone type seat and the wheels have ball type seats.  The Fuchs are five lug, but not wide.  I don't as of yet know the bolt pattern.  If anyone wants to chime in, I am all ears.  center to center, the lug holes are 75 mm apart.  It has 4 wheel discs.

I am happy with the portion of the build that is finished, but don't know how to feel about the rest.  It is overwhelming because I keep seeing what I need to do, and it is a lot.  I am making a to do list, and I think I will be making it for awhile.  I don't like the idea of putting the whole car together and then taking it apart to paint, but that is what I have seen is done with quality builds and I guess I already knew the answer and was maybe hoping I would hear something different.  The front suspension is A-arms that the previous owner built from scratch and something existing parts.  It will need coil overs, and I am unsure how to measure for them.  

It came with 'made in India' VDO replica gauges, and that is just fine for now.  It came with some very old ivory knobs and includes a cigarette lighter and ash tray.  I don't like the Subaru air box/filter, but it looks like it may fit, so I may keep it for now.  It came with a very old VW wiring harness and maybe I will purchase a new one, make my own, or use the old one to start.  Any opinions on that?

Opinion needed:  The roof is fiberglass, which does not lend to much protection from an accident.  Should I install a roll bar?  From what I can tell, mounting to the existing frame would not be a huge problem.  I don't like roll bars that are prone to having a head hit them, so that would be the real obstacle.

Is that enough for now?

I will download some photos and then post them.

Troy, thanks for being interested.

Last edited by Todd M

photosfrunk-from-above

Above photo is the front truck from above.  The green is my garage floor.

frunk-from-the-front

Above photo - self explanatory

frunk-from-left-wheelfrunk-from-right-front-wheel

The above two photos are looking into the front trunk from above the left wheel and above the right wheel, respectively.  Anybody figure out what those two ears on the tubular frame cross piece are for?  The holes in the top of the ears do not line up, and the ears themselves are not spaced evenly from the sides or the center.

in-frfunk-looking-at-front 

Above photo:  Pretend your head is in the front trunk just in front of the dash looking toward the front of the car.

These photos were taken with the idea of firing out where to put the radiator, but the more I think about it, I can't help but wonder if the Beck radiator installations would be a direct fit in this car.

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I have no idea as to how much experience you have in setting up a chassis...sometimes  it's safer,  cost efficient and ends up being quicker to have someone do the major components for you.  I have a lot of experience with '23 T' Buckets ,  my first one was a learning experience with the help of an old school builder i.e. pinion angles, radius rods , pan hard bars etc. and also street rods and of course dozens of speedsters but looking at what you are getting into even if it were mine I would seriously consider investing in some help this gets you over the hum and allows for a positive direction.  Just my.02 

 

Last edited by Alan Merklin

"Do you think I should squirt anything in the cylinders to keep the rings and cylinders lubed?"

Sure - Marvel Mystery Oil

" I have the piece with 2 u-joints to connect the rack and pinion to the column, but there is a bigger diameter tube that from my vantage looks like it goes over the approx. 5/8" diameter steering rod, but the two mounting bearings do not fit over the tube."

Picture would be good.  Al Merklin makes a bushing from a skateboard wheel (or something like that) to go between the column and the steering shaft.  Pretty much any type of bearing would work - sealed ball bearing is best.

" It came with two 914 seat buckets, but no upholstery, at lease none that is useable. "

914 or Mazda Miata seats will prob'ly fit - Mazda will be cheaper from a Salvage yard and if you're patient, you could even find them in the color you want.  $75 for two would be fair

"The rear suspension is part swing axle, but no torsion tube or torsion bars.  Instead it has coil overs."

That's cool, and probably as effective as the torsion bar/training arm of the original.

  "The sump is hanging way to low, so I will have to buy a shallower pan"

See @edsnova

"It has all the glass, but no rubber or trim.  If you want to give me the low down on where to purchase rubber and trim, I would be grateful.  

McMaster-Carr

"It came with an unmounted fuel cell, but it does not fit anywhere without some modification, so ... who knows what I will do with it, ..., kind of depends on where I fit the radiator."  

The only other car I know of on here with a fuel cell is Cory Drake's "Hoopty".  That might tell you something, but if you can find a way to make it fit, cells are pretty cool

"It was originally designed to run on electric power"

Seriously?!?!?!?!?    Wicked cool!  Is that still a viable alternative?  I might be able to hook you up with the folks at WPI.edu doing those conversions.

The swing axle concerns me, but I will keep on researching work arounds.  

Meh.  If you set it up right, it should be fine.  Run a camber compensator and rave on.

"Presently it has Fuchs style wheels and I like 'em, ..., alot."

Me, too.

There are only two lug bolts installed per each wheel with the other 3 spaces empty, and I had a bit of a quandary figuring out what to order.  

14mm by 1.0 pitch?  I'll have to check that, but it's not a coarse thread.

I took one off, but it was the cone type seat and the wheels have ball type seats.  The Fuchs are five lug, but not wide.  I don't as of yet know the bolt pattern.  

5 x 130  same as any Porsche, plus the Audi Q5 (and maybe a VW Toureg, but don't quote me on that).

"It is overwhelming because I keep seeing what I need to do, and it is a lot."

Yup, been there.......Felt that.

"I don't like the idea of putting the whole car together and then taking it apart to paint, but that is what I have seen is done with quality builds and I guess I already knew the answer and was maybe hoping I would hear something different."  

Not from any of us......This ain't Maako, after all.....

"It came with some very old ivory knobs and includes a cigarette lighter and ash tray."

Period correct?"   (just kidding....)

"I don't like the Subaru air box/filter, but it looks like it may fit, so I may keep it for now."

It'll be quieter.

It came with a very old VW wiring harness and maybe I will purchase a new one, make my own, or use the old one to start.  Any opinions on that?

either https://www.painlessperformance.com  or buy a harness from Vintage.

Opinion needed:  The roof is fiberglass, which does not lend to much protection from an accident.  Should I install a roll bar?  From what I can tell, mounting to the existing frame would not be a huge problem.  I don't like roll bars that are prone to having a head hit them, so that would be the real obstacle.

Contact Tom Marantz  @Tom Marantz   He has a JPS 356 coupe with an internal roll cage.

Is that enough for now?

Keep 'em coming!

@Todd M wrote- "Does anybody have real Fuchs on a replica car?"

I have real Fuchs for my car. They are "flat" 15x6's (as opposed to the earlier, for some more desirable and more expensive "deep" 6's). Part of what I posted on the Samba recently- 

"My car is an older Intermeccanica and I've got it on an irs pan (1970), with Karmann Ghia discs (redrilled to 5x130mm bolt pattern) on the front, 4x130mm (redrilled) Beetle back drums with oe 911 Porsche Fuchs alloys for wheels. 6" wheels with 185/60's will fit on the front. I've tried 195/55's (you can still find them in a summer tread/compound) and other than adjusting the turn stops slightly so the tire doesn't rub on the inner body at full lock, they'll work as well. The back, as I've said, is irs with swing axle torsion bars and cut down swingaxle spring plates bolted to the inside of the trailing arm flange with 7" wheels (6" Fuchs cut and widened 1" to the inside, a la 1967 911R wheels). With 205/60's, there's maybe 1/8" sidewall/springplate clearance (had to shorten the bolt that threads into the flange) and the outer part of the tire contacts the fender at the back. Although the ultimate goal is to run 205's or maybe even 215's (with type 3 rear drums, which will necessitate narrowing the trailing arms) I'll be putting some 195's on it for the moment, just so they clear the fenders and is actually rolling. It helps to get to know the local used tire dealer."

The thread in the Custom Wheel/Tire forum-

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/fo...ewtopic.php?t=712977

Hope this helps. Al

Last edited by ALB

Real Fuchs used to be reasonably priced.  Being truly forged they are very light and strong.  A 16x7 wheel is only 15 #. Even the mounting bolts are aluminum for weight savings. Plus there weren't many repro's 20 years ago.  Now even EMPI makes a faux Fuchs!  Suspect all the faux ones are heavier weight and weaker strength cast vs forged.  Otto did a great job on the wheels.  Years ago (1969) I had a '65 build 911S - I replaced the chrome wheels with 4.5"x15" Fuchs - turns out they are very rare now (I paid $400 for them with alloy nuts). Should have kept car but need a house down payment when I moved to DC area.

66 911 Porsche 12

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Todd:  I have real Fuchs from an '89 911 

IMG_2741

They came with black anodized spokes which I ground, sanded and polished.  Took about 4 days per wheel.  Unbelievable how tough their anodizing was.  

I bought the set of 4 from a PCA member in Georgia for $600, including shipping, in 1999 - he wanted wider rims for autocrossing and sold off these.  They were 6" wide (front) and 7" wide (rear), but I've swapped the rears and now run 6" wide all around with 205/50's everywhere - nothing is close to rubbing.  That same set today (black spokes) would be at least double that.  I've been seeing original polished 5-spoke Fuchs going for over $1,000 each, lately.  The reproductions are a lot less.  I'm not sure of the weights - I thought mine were closer to 12 pounds each.  All I know is when you pick one up, you're always surprised at how little they weigh.

Beauty (and strength) ain't cheap!

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Last edited by Gordon Nichols
Gordon Nichols posted:

 

" I have the piece with 2 u-joints to connect the rack and pinion to the column, but there is a bigger diameter tube that from my vantage looks like it goes over the approx. 5/8" diameter steering rod, but the two mounting bearings do not fit over the tube."

Picture would be good.  Al Merklin makes a bushing from a skateboard wheel (or something like that) to go between the column and the steering shaft.  Pretty much any type of bearing would work - sealed ball bearing is best.

If I can remember, I will take some photos today.

"The sump is hanging way to low, so I will have to buy a shallower pan"

See @edsnova

Thanks

"It has all the glass, but no rubber or trim.  If you want to give me the low down on where to purchase rubber and trim, I would be grateful.  

McMaster-Carr

Thanks

 

Seriously?!?!?!?!?    Wicked cool!  Is that still a viable alternative?  I might be able to hook you up with the folks at WPI.edu doing those conversions.

It came with a Subaru engine and a transaxle, so I will get it running using what I got.

 

 

 

I took one off, but it was the cone type seat and the wheels have ball type seats.  The Fuchs are five lug, but not wide.  I don't as of yet know the bolt pattern.  

5 x 130  same as any Porsche, plus the Audi Q5 (and maybe a VW Toureg, but don't quote me on that).

Thanks

 

 

"It came with some very old ivory knobs and includes a cigarette lighter and ash tray."

Period correct?"   (just kidding....)

They are old and worn, so my guess is that they period correct to something, probably a bug.

 

It came with a very old VW wiring harness and maybe I will purchase a new one, make my own, or use the old one to start.  Any opinions on that?

either https://www.painlessperformance.com  or buy a harness from Vintage.

Thanks.

 

 

 

Alan Merklin posted:

I have no idea as to how much experience you have in setting up a chassis...sometimes  it's safer,  cost efficient and ends up being quicker to have someone do the major components for you.  I have a lot of experience with '23 T' Buckets ,  my first one was a learning experience with the help of an old school builder i.e. pinion angles, radius rods , pan hard bars etc. and also street rods and of course dozens of speedsters but looking at what you are getting into even if it were mine I would seriously consider investing in some help this gets you over the hum and allows for a positive direction.  Just my.02 

 

I think the chassis is set.  When I was buying the car, I was actually interviewing the man behind the car.  He set up the suspension and installed the transaxle and the engine.  I was buying the builder as much as I was buying the car.  

And, I don't mind help.  My guess is that I will get to know Greg fairly well.  His shop is not far from where I work, and I figure to time my purchases to coincide with my bigger questions.

A 15x6" Fuchs weighs 12 and a 15x7" weighs 13 pounds; as well as being forged (stronger and if you curb a rim edge it will bend whereas a cast wheel will immediately break) you can see the advantage of the Fuchs wheel. The '67 911R wheels are even lighter- the 15x6 (which has a different part # than the regular early 6" wheel) is only 11 pounds (forged from 5 1/2" wheels slugs?) and if you find 1 it's worth big bucks to anyone with a 911R. The 7's, as I've said, are different as well, being made with the extra inch to the inside  so wider tires fit under the stock cars' body work. They are the ideal wheel for the back of a Speedster, but with the VW crowd loving them too prices are so nuts (last time I looked 3-$5,000/pair) you can understand why I had a pair of 6's widened ($500 from the local wheel repair/re-finishing specialist) for the back of my car.

I remember Gordon weighing his 16" wheels some time ago and they were only a pound or so heavier than a comparable 15" wheel. The Porsche wheel spec chart we post the link to occasionally has the 16" Fuchs weights wrong.

The 15x6's come in early, or "deep" (which the VW crowd especially goes nuts for and is as much or more to blame as the Porsche people for the crazy prices they're paying for these wheels), while the later wheels are "flat". Most of the deep 6's have a little casting protrusion (or "heart") at the valve stem as well. Fuchs stopped with the heart thing near the end of the deep 6's manufacturing run so there are some deep 6 wheels out there without.

PS- All the cast Fuchs replicas I have seen or heard about are substantially heavier- they start at about 4 lbs. more than the same size forged Fuchs wheel. Yeah, I'm the first to admit oe Fuchs are expensive (especially these days!) but it's 16-20 lbs of unsprung (and rotating!) weight you're removing from the car- that's a big deal. 

Fuchs- flat 6 vs deep 6

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Last edited by ALB

Below are three photos:

The first is of the driver wheel well area which shows how the car is currently set up for a hanging brake and pedal assembly.

The second photo is the same, but from a wider angle to put things in perspective.

The third is of a stock VW brake and pedal assembly which mounts on the floor.

I have to decide whether to install a hanging pedal assembly, or install the stock VW type.

IMG_1131

 

IMG_1132apiamurdq__26629.1421968111

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Someone on here has a hanging pedal set.  Can't remember who, but there was at least one.   If the mounting brackets are there for the hanging set AND it looks like you have everything to make it work, like brake and clutch master cylinders and something to operate the throttle cable, I would say go for it.  

You might find that it is whole lot of work to put a stock VW pedal-set in there.  There are no tubes for the cables for clutch and throttle to run through the tunnel.  You'll have to figure out something for the throttle anyway, even for the hanging one, but you'll also have to come up with a beefy mount for the pedal cluster itself (VW reinforced that area of the central tunnel to take the force of stepping on the brake and clutch pedals - you'll need that, too, because it only mounts on one side.

Alan Merklin posted:

How about a floor mounted hydraulic pedal assembly ?

 

I kinda figured that if I am going to go through the trouble of going with a hydraulic clutch rather than cable, how much more trouble would it be to mount a hanging rather than floor set.  Faulty logic?

It's weird.  Having so many options almost makes it more confusing.  I would rather have a hydraulic clutch, but I wonder if it worth the effort.

And as long as we are on this subject; Do you use stock clutch and accelerator cables in a replica, even though the distances between the release arm and carb linkage and the pedals are closer?

Last edited by Todd M

No, the clutch and throttle cables are shortened from “stock”.  The throttle is easiest, just get a new linkage end made for shortening it and you’re good to go.

For the clutch, while there are shortening adapters out there, I have found it best to just get a new end swaged onto the shortened cable (easy for me as I have a sailboat rigger do it) or, even easier, just buy a shortened cable from Vintage.  

If I were doing your car, I would go with the hydraulic clutch (and the suspended pedals!) and use a captive-at-both-ends actuator cable (push-pull control cable) for the throttle - run it where-ever you need to, then you can still use the hanging accelerator pedal......easy peasy.

This one is overkill, but should give you the idea.  Click on the link and then click on “control cables”:

https://www.mcmaster.com/control-cable

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

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