Skip to main content

Todd M posted:
edsnova posted:

When (not if, when) a swing car's rear axle "jacks" during S-turn maneuvers at medium or high speed, a very ..."

 

 

@edsnova

Are there modifications to the swing axle suspension that can keep it from jacking?

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2819.htm

I have this on my car and it really performs well. The tires will break loose and slide before the axle tucks under the car. Ask me how I know.

Last edited by Robert M
Robert M posted:
Todd M posted:
edsnova posted:

When (not if, when) a swing car's rear axle "jacks" during S-turn maneuvers at medium or high speed, a very ..."

 

 

@edsnova

Are there modifications to the swing axle suspension that can keep it from jacking?

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/2819.htm

I have this on my car and it really performs well. The tires will break loose and slide before the axle tucks under the car. Ask me how I know.

That’s the one to get! Have it on my Speedster and now the Coupe...

WOLFGANG posted:

Rick - Does the missing cutout piece of the rear trailing arm get welded back in for strength or to keep water out --- or is that not necessary. I tried to find the article in HotVW from 1994 with no luck.

Yes it should be, Greg. Rick probably wasn't finished at that point. If anyone is interested, I'll post the Hot VW's article on narrowing irs trailing arms later.

ALB posted:
WOLFGANG posted:

Rick - Does the missing cutout piece of the rear trailing arm get welded back in for strength or to keep water out --- or is that not necessary. I tried to find the article in HotVW from 1994 with no luck.

Yes it should be, Greg. Rick probably wasn't finished at that point. If anyone is interested, I'll post the Hot VW's article on narrowing irs trailing arms later.

That is correct.  I plated the front and welded in a gusset on the back side.  

For those that didn't notice, that transmission is a late model Bus box with a Gene Berg type 1 nose cone conversion.  These transmissions are much stronger than a type 1, but unfortunately no tall ring and pinions are available for them. Not good for highway cruising.

Car was sold long ago and resides somewhere in Europe now.

Attachments

Images (2)
  • 090-2
  • tumblr_mso5mzSId71qeayp6o5_1280
chines1 posted:

The aforementioned coupe with the Beck MSO did come through my shop, but I was only a broker on those 7 cars.  They were produced by a friend's company in China, and were intended to be electric, but did not get approval in China for an electric vehicle, so they had to sell them.  We had them shipped to the states and brokered the sales and provided invoices and MSOs.  That was the extent of our involvement in this coupes.

Another stainless showing up:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-...bafff35175%7Ciid%3A1

s-l1600

Attachments

Images (1)
  • s-l1600

That is a lovely car, I really like the colour and the roof slope, no gutters. 

Who did the reno build ?  Thanks for posting .

I went back and found the link on Rod Emory's site and it looks like it is a speedster but the window seems to be slopped more, I am not sure but is comes with a custom made hardtop that is extremely well done for slope. Emory site link

Love the look of that car does anyone know more info on it. 

Last edited by IaM-Ray

Todd wrote: “It looks like there is either no window trim or the window trim is painted black on some outlaws.  Does anybody know which it is?  Or do you think both; deleted on some and painted black on others?”

Well, all of the various shiny trim bits for coupes didn’t exist unless you bought really expensive used or reproduction parts.  Carey, at Special Edition, had a cost-effective source for many of those parts, but the guy died so they put their coupe project on the back burner for a while.

John Steele became the only guy building 356 coupes back then and when he couldn’t find sources for window trim he simply deleted it and just left the black rubber glass gaskets in place.  He also deleted the unobtanium rear quarter window hinges and latches, making them just captive windows with no shiny trim.  The overall 👀 look tended to be a bit “unfinished”, but the alternative was to find someone to tool up the needed trim and that takes time.  Eventually he (and, in parallel, Carey Hines at Special Edition) found sources for coupe trim bits and they began appearing on cars 2 or 3 years ago.

So........   That’s why some (early) coupes have black window trim and other (later) cars have nice, shiny trim.  Except for the old Envemo coupes which predated all this stuff and had immaculate trim bits (made, I think, by Carey’s guy down in Brazil before he passed).  

Troy Sloan posted:

Tell us more about the car. 

It is one of the bodies that was built by Beck in China.  Has a stainless steel frame, beefed up bus transaxle, normally aspirated 2.5 Subaru, no radiator, and needs a lot of stuff and work.  I don't know when the engine last ran, so tomorrow I will turn the crank.  Do you think I should squirt anything in the cylinders to keep the rings and cylinders lubed?  I don't know when I can get it running.  It came with the ECU and  attendant harness.  Came with part of the exhaust, but I don't think all of it.  I need to install the steering column, and that has me a bit confused.  I have the piece with 2 u-joints to connect the rack and pinion to the column, but there is a bigger diameter tube that from my vantage looks like it goes over the approx. 5/8" diameter steering rod, but the two mounting bearings do not fit over the tube.  I will attach photos later to make it more understandable.  It came with two 914 seat buckets, but no upholstery, at lease none that is useable.  The engine is temporarily mounted, and I will need to install more permanent mounts.  That is a shame because I have no welding skills.  The rear suspension is part swing axle, but no torsion tube or torsion bars.  Instead it has coil overs.  The sump is hanging way to low, so I will have to buy a shallower pan,  If I had my druthers, I would go dry sump, but the cost is prohibitive.  It has all the glass, but no rubber or trim.  If you want to give me the low down on where to purchase rubber and trim, I would be grateful.  So far, it seems frightfully expensive.  It came with an unmounted fuel cell, but it does not fit anywhere without some modification, so ... who knows what I will do with it, ..., kind of depends on where I fit the radiator.

It was originally designed to run on electric power and the spacing behind the seats is much less than a regular coupe.  The good news on that is that there is enough room to run a turbo, intercooler, all the plumbing, and Subaru 5/6 speed.  Those will be in the future.  I want to get it drivable first and then start playing.  I will post photos of the engine/transaxle compartment, so you know what I am talking about.

The swing axle concerns me, but I will keep on researching work arounds.  I watched a 356 race and they did not seem to have any jacking problems.  Any and all opinions are welcome.  Presently it has Fuchs style wheels and I like 'em, ..., alot.  There are only two lug bolts installed per each wheel with the other 3 spaces empty, and I had a bit of a quandary figuring out what to order.  I took one off, but it was the cone type seat and the wheels have ball type seats.  The Fuchs are five lug, but not wide.  I don't as of yet know the bolt pattern.  If anyone wants to chime in, I am all ears.  center to center, the lug holes are 75 mm apart.  It has 4 wheel discs.

I am happy with the portion of the build that is finished, but don't know how to feel about the rest.  It is overwhelming because I keep seeing what I need to do, and it is a lot.  I am making a to do list, and I think I will be making it for awhile.  I don't like the idea of putting the whole car together and then taking it apart to paint, but that is what I have seen is done with quality builds and I guess I already knew the answer and was maybe hoping I would hear something different.  The front suspension is A-arms that the previous owner built from scratch and something existing parts.  It will need coil overs, and I am unsure how to measure for them.  

It came with 'made in India' VDO replica gauges, and that is just fine for now.  It came with some very old ivory knobs and includes a cigarette lighter and ash tray.  I don't like the Subaru air box/filter, but it looks like it may fit, so I may keep it for now.  It came with a very old VW wiring harness and maybe I will purchase a new one, make my own, or use the old one to start.  Any opinions on that?

Opinion needed:  The roof is fiberglass, which does not lend to much protection from an accident.  Should I install a roll bar?  From what I can tell, mounting to the existing frame would not be a huge problem.  I don't like roll bars that are prone to having a head hit them, so that would be the real obstacle.

Is that enough for now?

I will download some photos and then post them.

Troy, thanks for being interested.

Last edited by Todd M

photosfrunk-from-above

Above photo is the front truck from above.  The green is my garage floor.

frunk-from-the-front

Above photo - self explanatory

frunk-from-left-wheelfrunk-from-right-front-wheel

The above two photos are looking into the front trunk from above the left wheel and above the right wheel, respectively.  Anybody figure out what those two ears on the tubular frame cross piece are for?  The holes in the top of the ears do not line up, and the ears themselves are not spaced evenly from the sides or the center.

in-frfunk-looking-at-front 

Above photo:  Pretend your head is in the front trunk just in front of the dash looking toward the front of the car.

These photos were taken with the idea of firing out where to put the radiator, but the more I think about it, I can't help but wonder if the Beck radiator installations would be a direct fit in this car.

Attachments

Images (5)
  • frunk-from-above
  • frunk-from-the-front
  • frunk-from-left-wheel
  • frunk-from-right-front-wheel
  • in-frfunk-looking-at-front

I have no idea as to how much experience you have in setting up a chassis...sometimes  it's safer,  cost efficient and ends up being quicker to have someone do the major components for you.  I have a lot of experience with '23 T' Buckets ,  my first one was a learning experience with the help of an old school builder i.e. pinion angles, radius rods , pan hard bars etc. and also street rods and of course dozens of speedsters but looking at what you are getting into even if it were mine I would seriously consider investing in some help this gets you over the hum and allows for a positive direction.  Just my.02 

 

Last edited by Alan Merklin

"Do you think I should squirt anything in the cylinders to keep the rings and cylinders lubed?"

Sure - Marvel Mystery Oil

" I have the piece with 2 u-joints to connect the rack and pinion to the column, but there is a bigger diameter tube that from my vantage looks like it goes over the approx. 5/8" diameter steering rod, but the two mounting bearings do not fit over the tube."

Picture would be good.  Al Merklin makes a bushing from a skateboard wheel (or something like that) to go between the column and the steering shaft.  Pretty much any type of bearing would work - sealed ball bearing is best.

" It came with two 914 seat buckets, but no upholstery, at lease none that is useable. "

914 or Mazda Miata seats will prob'ly fit - Mazda will be cheaper from a Salvage yard and if you're patient, you could even find them in the color you want.  $75 for two would be fair

"The rear suspension is part swing axle, but no torsion tube or torsion bars.  Instead it has coil overs."

That's cool, and probably as effective as the torsion bar/training arm of the original.

  "The sump is hanging way to low, so I will have to buy a shallower pan"

See @edsnova

"It has all the glass, but no rubber or trim.  If you want to give me the low down on where to purchase rubber and trim, I would be grateful.  

McMaster-Carr

"It came with an unmounted fuel cell, but it does not fit anywhere without some modification, so ... who knows what I will do with it, ..., kind of depends on where I fit the radiator."  

The only other car I know of on here with a fuel cell is Cory Drake's "Hoopty".  That might tell you something, but if you can find a way to make it fit, cells are pretty cool

"It was originally designed to run on electric power"

Seriously?!?!?!?!?    Wicked cool!  Is that still a viable alternative?  I might be able to hook you up with the folks at WPI.edu doing those conversions.

The swing axle concerns me, but I will keep on researching work arounds.  

Meh.  If you set it up right, it should be fine.  Run a camber compensator and rave on.

"Presently it has Fuchs style wheels and I like 'em, ..., alot."

Me, too.

There are only two lug bolts installed per each wheel with the other 3 spaces empty, and I had a bit of a quandary figuring out what to order.  

14mm by 1.0 pitch?  I'll have to check that, but it's not a coarse thread.

I took one off, but it was the cone type seat and the wheels have ball type seats.  The Fuchs are five lug, but not wide.  I don't as of yet know the bolt pattern.  

5 x 130  same as any Porsche, plus the Audi Q5 (and maybe a VW Toureg, but don't quote me on that).

"It is overwhelming because I keep seeing what I need to do, and it is a lot."

Yup, been there.......Felt that.

"I don't like the idea of putting the whole car together and then taking it apart to paint, but that is what I have seen is done with quality builds and I guess I already knew the answer and was maybe hoping I would hear something different."  

Not from any of us......This ain't Maako, after all.....

"It came with some very old ivory knobs and includes a cigarette lighter and ash tray."

Period correct?"   (just kidding....)

"I don't like the Subaru air box/filter, but it looks like it may fit, so I may keep it for now."

It'll be quieter.

It came with a very old VW wiring harness and maybe I will purchase a new one, make my own, or use the old one to start.  Any opinions on that?

either https://www.painlessperformance.com  or buy a harness from Vintage.

Opinion needed:  The roof is fiberglass, which does not lend to much protection from an accident.  Should I install a roll bar?  From what I can tell, mounting to the existing frame would not be a huge problem.  I don't like roll bars that are prone to having a head hit them, so that would be the real obstacle.

Contact Tom Marantz  @Tom Marantz   He has a JPS 356 coupe with an internal roll cage.

Is that enough for now?

Keep 'em coming!

@Todd M wrote- "Does anybody have real Fuchs on a replica car?"

I have real Fuchs for my car. They are "flat" 15x6's (as opposed to the earlier, for some more desirable and more expensive "deep" 6's). Part of what I posted on the Samba recently- 

"My car is an older Intermeccanica and I've got it on an irs pan (1970), with Karmann Ghia discs (redrilled to 5x130mm bolt pattern) on the front, 4x130mm (redrilled) Beetle back drums with oe 911 Porsche Fuchs alloys for wheels. 6" wheels with 185/60's will fit on the front. I've tried 195/55's (you can still find them in a summer tread/compound) and other than adjusting the turn stops slightly so the tire doesn't rub on the inner body at full lock, they'll work as well. The back, as I've said, is irs with swing axle torsion bars and cut down swingaxle spring plates bolted to the inside of the trailing arm flange with 7" wheels (6" Fuchs cut and widened 1" to the inside, a la 1967 911R wheels). With 205/60's, there's maybe 1/8" sidewall/springplate clearance (had to shorten the bolt that threads into the flange) and the outer part of the tire contacts the fender at the back. Although the ultimate goal is to run 205's or maybe even 215's (with type 3 rear drums, which will necessitate narrowing the trailing arms) I'll be putting some 195's on it for the moment, just so they clear the fenders and is actually rolling. It helps to get to know the local used tire dealer."

The thread in the Custom Wheel/Tire forum-

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/fo...ewtopic.php?t=712977

Hope this helps. Al

Last edited by ALB

Real Fuchs used to be reasonably priced.  Being truly forged they are very light and strong.  A 16x7 wheel is only 15 #. Even the mounting bolts are aluminum for weight savings. Plus there weren't many repro's 20 years ago.  Now even EMPI makes a faux Fuchs!  Suspect all the faux ones are heavier weight and weaker strength cast vs forged.  Otto did a great job on the wheels.  Years ago (1969) I had a '65 build 911S - I replaced the chrome wheels with 4.5"x15" Fuchs - turns out they are very rare now (I paid $400 for them with alloy nuts). Should have kept car but need a house down payment when I moved to DC area.

66 911 Porsche 12

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 66 911 Porsche 12

Todd:  I have real Fuchs from an '89 911 

IMG_2741

They came with black anodized spokes which I ground, sanded and polished.  Took about 4 days per wheel.  Unbelievable how tough their anodizing was.  

I bought the set of 4 from a PCA member in Georgia for $600, including shipping, in 1999 - he wanted wider rims for autocrossing and sold off these.  They were 6" wide (front) and 7" wide (rear), but I've swapped the rears and now run 6" wide all around with 205/50's everywhere - nothing is close to rubbing.  That same set today (black spokes) would be at least double that.  I've been seeing original polished 5-spoke Fuchs going for over $1,000 each, lately.  The reproductions are a lot less.  I'm not sure of the weights - I thought mine were closer to 12 pounds each.  All I know is when you pick one up, you're always surprised at how little they weigh.

Beauty (and strength) ain't cheap!

Attachments

Images (1)
  • IMG_2741
Last edited by Gordon Nichols
Gordon Nichols posted:

 

" I have the piece with 2 u-joints to connect the rack and pinion to the column, but there is a bigger diameter tube that from my vantage looks like it goes over the approx. 5/8" diameter steering rod, but the two mounting bearings do not fit over the tube."

Picture would be good.  Al Merklin makes a bushing from a skateboard wheel (or something like that) to go between the column and the steering shaft.  Pretty much any type of bearing would work - sealed ball bearing is best.

If I can remember, I will take some photos today.

"The sump is hanging way to low, so I will have to buy a shallower pan"

See @edsnova

Thanks

"It has all the glass, but no rubber or trim.  If you want to give me the low down on where to purchase rubber and trim, I would be grateful.  

McMaster-Carr

Thanks

 

Seriously?!?!?!?!?    Wicked cool!  Is that still a viable alternative?  I might be able to hook you up with the folks at WPI.edu doing those conversions.

It came with a Subaru engine and a transaxle, so I will get it running using what I got.

 

 

 

I took one off, but it was the cone type seat and the wheels have ball type seats.  The Fuchs are five lug, but not wide.  I don't as of yet know the bolt pattern.  

5 x 130  same as any Porsche, plus the Audi Q5 (and maybe a VW Toureg, but don't quote me on that).

Thanks

 

 

"It came with some very old ivory knobs and includes a cigarette lighter and ash tray."

Period correct?"   (just kidding....)

They are old and worn, so my guess is that they period correct to something, probably a bug.

 

It came with a very old VW wiring harness and maybe I will purchase a new one, make my own, or use the old one to start.  Any opinions on that?

either https://www.painlessperformance.com  or buy a harness from Vintage.

Thanks.

 

 

 

Alan Merklin posted:

I have no idea as to how much experience you have in setting up a chassis...sometimes  it's safer,  cost efficient and ends up being quicker to have someone do the major components for you.  I have a lot of experience with '23 T' Buckets ,  my first one was a learning experience with the help of an old school builder i.e. pinion angles, radius rods , pan hard bars etc. and also street rods and of course dozens of speedsters but looking at what you are getting into even if it were mine I would seriously consider investing in some help this gets you over the hum and allows for a positive direction.  Just my.02 

 

I think the chassis is set.  When I was buying the car, I was actually interviewing the man behind the car.  He set up the suspension and installed the transaxle and the engine.  I was buying the builder as much as I was buying the car.  

And, I don't mind help.  My guess is that I will get to know Greg fairly well.  His shop is not far from where I work, and I figure to time my purchases to coincide with my bigger questions.

A 15x6" Fuchs weighs 12 and a 15x7" weighs 13 pounds; as well as being forged (stronger and if you curb a rim edge it will bend whereas a cast wheel will immediately break) you can see the advantage of the Fuchs wheel. The '67 911R wheels are even lighter- the 15x6 (which has a different part # than the regular early 6" wheel) is only 11 pounds (forged from 5 1/2" wheels slugs?) and if you find 1 it's worth big bucks to anyone with a 911R. The 7's, as I've said, are different as well, being made with the extra inch to the inside  so wider tires fit under the stock cars' body work. They are the ideal wheel for the back of a Speedster, but with the VW crowd loving them too prices are so nuts (last time I looked 3-$5,000/pair) you can understand why I had a pair of 6's widened ($500 from the local wheel repair/re-finishing specialist) for the back of my car.

I remember Gordon weighing his 16" wheels some time ago and they were only a pound or so heavier than a comparable 15" wheel. The Porsche wheel spec chart we post the link to occasionally has the 16" Fuchs weights wrong.

The 15x6's come in early, or "deep" (which the VW crowd especially goes nuts for and is as much or more to blame as the Porsche people for the crazy prices they're paying for these wheels), while the later wheels are "flat". Most of the deep 6's have a little casting protrusion (or "heart") at the valve stem as well. Fuchs stopped with the heart thing near the end of the deep 6's manufacturing run so there are some deep 6 wheels out there without.

PS- All the cast Fuchs replicas I have seen or heard about are substantially heavier- they start at about 4 lbs. more than the same size forged Fuchs wheel. Yeah, I'm the first to admit oe Fuchs are expensive (especially these days!) but it's 16-20 lbs of unsprung (and rotating!) weight you're removing from the car- that's a big deal. 

Fuchs- flat 6 vs deep 6

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Fuchs- flat 6 vs deep 6
Last edited by ALB

Below are three photos:

The first is of the driver wheel well area which shows how the car is currently set up for a hanging brake and pedal assembly.

The second photo is the same, but from a wider angle to put things in perspective.

The third is of a stock VW brake and pedal assembly which mounts on the floor.

I have to decide whether to install a hanging pedal assembly, or install the stock VW type.

IMG_1131

 

IMG_1132apiamurdq__26629.1421968111

Attachments

Images (3)
  • IMG_1131
  • IMG_1132
  • apiamurdq__26629.1421968111

Someone on here has a hanging pedal set.  Can't remember who, but there was at least one.   If the mounting brackets are there for the hanging set AND it looks like you have everything to make it work, like brake and clutch master cylinders and something to operate the throttle cable, I would say go for it.  

You might find that it is whole lot of work to put a stock VW pedal-set in there.  There are no tubes for the cables for clutch and throttle to run through the tunnel.  You'll have to figure out something for the throttle anyway, even for the hanging one, but you'll also have to come up with a beefy mount for the pedal cluster itself (VW reinforced that area of the central tunnel to take the force of stepping on the brake and clutch pedals - you'll need that, too, because it only mounts on one side.

Alan Merklin posted:

How about a floor mounted hydraulic pedal assembly ?

 

I kinda figured that if I am going to go through the trouble of going with a hydraulic clutch rather than cable, how much more trouble would it be to mount a hanging rather than floor set.  Faulty logic?

It's weird.  Having so many options almost makes it more confusing.  I would rather have a hydraulic clutch, but I wonder if it worth the effort.

And as long as we are on this subject; Do you use stock clutch and accelerator cables in a replica, even though the distances between the release arm and carb linkage and the pedals are closer?

Last edited by Todd M

No, the clutch and throttle cables are shortened from “stock”.  The throttle is easiest, just get a new linkage end made for shortening it and you’re good to go.

For the clutch, while there are shortening adapters out there, I have found it best to just get a new end swaged onto the shortened cable (easy for me as I have a sailboat rigger do it) or, even easier, just buy a shortened cable from Vintage.  

If I were doing your car, I would go with the hydraulic clutch (and the suspended pedals!) and use a captive-at-both-ends actuator cable (push-pull control cable) for the throttle - run it where-ever you need to, then you can still use the hanging accelerator pedal......easy peasy.

This one is overkill, but should give you the idea.  Click on the link and then click on “control cables”:

https://www.mcmaster.com/control-cable

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

1098696

The above is the rubber coupler between the steering shaft and the steering box.  Do most of your cars use a VW steering shaft/column/box?  And if so, do you have the rubber coupler installed to isolate the ground for the horn button?  I am trying to decide if I need to install a rubber/urethane coupler when building a steering shaft.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 1098696
Alan Merklin posted:

Yes. The rubber absorbs some of the road , isolates ground for the horn, it also corrects for slight difference in column to steering box shaft alignment

Guess you could also use the knuckle joints used on later VW Super beetle and the Porsche 914 (see #1).  Late VW has a collision crush cage in the column but pre '68 uses a solid skewer you in the chest steel shaft.  

Attachments

Images (1)
  • mceclip0
Last edited by WOLFGANG
Lane Anderson posted:

I may have the whole assembly including slave saver and slave, Todd.  I’m out in San Diego (what the hell happened to the weather?!) on bid’ness but can check when I get back home.

That is kind of you.  And I already ordered the slave along with pedals and masters from Wilwood, and I ordered the slave saver from Amazon.  But, thanks for consideration.

Just curious, what did you use it on previously?

This morning it amazed me that everyone can travel at 65 mph during heavy rainfall without more accidents.  Last week, I was doing 70 when myself and the car in front me went through a puddle on the 405 in the fast lane.  Couldn't see a thing for about 3 seconds, and yet everyone just went straight and didn't panic; amazing.

The purpose of the slave saver is to align shaft movement precisely, so that the shaft has little or no side play, enabling the seals and washers to outlive their ungrateful installers. 

The brackets have various shapes, depending on the transmission type.  They usually bolt to the case and accept a heim joint for the true believers, who understand that a leaf falling from a tree in Baltimore affects the melting of the polar ice caps.

Now, I hope that answers your question, young Master Edward.

Last edited by Jim Kelly

 

Ed, thanks so much for asking this.

I was raised to believe that clutches should be worked by cables, that God gave us each a cable, and that cables can wander around a little as they do their work without causing any big problems.

Every once in a while, these dudes in white shirts and black ties come through our neighborhood, stopping at every house, and asking us if our clutch cylinders are saved.

I never know what to say.

 

I too am one of the great unwashed, struggling along with a mere cable (the horror) to engage my clutch. I know it's unduly simple for a man clearly drawn to Rube Goldberg solutions to elementary problems, but I guess I just never found the act of pushing on a pedal to be particularly taxing on my left leg.

Perhaps it is my desire to make straightforward considerations into complex conclusions at war with my higher order ape physiology. When one has a physique not unlike an orangutan, devising a more complicated way to pull a clutch doesn't really enter my sloped forehead. 

I promise to do better, and will be calling OK Go to help me engineer a more complex solution. 

 

Stan Galat posted:

I too am one of the great unwashed, struggling along with a mere cable (the horror) to engage my clutch. I know it's unduly simple for a man clearly drawn to Rube Goldberg solutions to elementary problems, but I guess I just never found the act of pushing on a pedal to be particularly taxing on my left leg.

Perhaps it is my desire to make straightforward considerations into complex conclusions at war with my higher order ape physiology. When one has a physique not unlike an orangutan, devising a more complicated way to pull a clutch doesn't really enter my sloped forehead. 

I promise to do better, and will be calling OK Go to help me engineer a more complex solution. 

 

I did not think of it being more complex.  I only saw that it was more expensive.  And so I thought it must be better.  And now that I reflect on my reasoning, I realize how dumb that rationale is.  Oh well, the parts arrived this evening, so I will use what I got.

WOLFGANG posted:

Guess you could also use the knuckle joints used on later VW Super beetle and the Porsche 914 (see #1).  Late VW has a collision crush cage in the column but pre '68 uses a solid skewer you in the chest steel shaft.  

Based on the location of the steering box, (not VW), I will have to use two u-joints/knuckle joints to position the steering column.  I am posting this because I want to know if there is any safety reason one can not use two knuckle/u-joints on a steering column?

Todd wrote: " I want to know if there is any safety reason one can not use two knuckle/u-joints on a steering column?"

Short answer - No.  But there's a yes involved, too.

Longer answer:  Sometime around 1972 and after car manufacturers started going to transverse (crosswise) engines in the front of cars, various governments started testing them for crash-worthiness and found that, on front impact, the engine would be forced rearward and often rotate, shoving the steering column straight back into the driver's chest and killing them.  This was especially true with the original Austin Mini.  That's what started the "crush cage" that VW went to on the beetle around 1968.

Other manufacturers used a shorter, centered steering column and an off-set steering rack and pinion, all connected by a short shaft with two universal joints, thereby providing for movement of the engine/transaxle/frame in case of frontal crash.  If you look closely at Wolfgang's photo just above, you can see how it works.  this method also allows for easier placement of the rack because it no longer needed to be directly inline with the steering column.

So, yes...  There is a safety issue with using two knuckles to connect the steering column to the rack.  It was done to improve driver safety in case of a frontal crash.  

It is currently the preferred method provided that the two shafts are off-set enough to never allow them to line up and become a spear in a crash. 

Gordon Nichols posted:

Todd wrote: " I want to know if there is any safety reason one can not use two knuckle/u-joints on a steering column?"

Short answer - No.  But there's a yes involved, too.

Longer answer:  Sometime around 1972 and after car manufacturers started going to transverse (crosswise) engines in the front of cars, various governments started testing them for crash-worthiness and found that, on front impact, the engine would be forced rearward and often rotate, shoving the steering column straight back into the driver's chest and killing them.  This was especially true with the original Austin Mini.  That's what started the "crush cage" that VW went to on the beetle around 1968.

Other manufacturers used a shorter, centered steering column and an off-set steering rack and pinion, all connected by a short shaft with two universal joints, thereby providing for movement of the engine/transaxle/frame in case of frontal crash.  If you look closely at Wolfgang's photo just above, you can see how it works.  this method also allows for easier placement of the rack because it no longer needed to be directly inline with the steering column.

So, yes...  There is a safety issue with using two knuckles to connect the steering column to the rack.  It was done to improve driver safety in case of a frontal crash.  

It is currently the preferred method provided that the two shafts are off-set enough to never allow them to line up and become a spear in a crash. 

Doggone THANKS!  Your explanation couldn't have been better with photos.  I understand exactly what you are saying.  And now I understand WHY the previous owner/builder planned on using 2 u-joints.  Unlike a VW or 356, the rack and pinion steering is located behind the centerline of the front wheels and close to the firewall.  The steering box is not on center with the steering column and the arm from the steering box is angled.

VW-CHROME-STEERING-BOX-AND-SHAFT-COUPLER-17-2584

Above is the VW steering coupler I purchased to isolate the ground for the horn.  It did not fit the u-joint I am using because there are 48 splines on the steering coupler and 36 splines on my u-joint.  Both are 5/8" in diameter.  I went looking for some way to go from 48 splines to 36 splines, but did not find anything.  I can't find anything else that is 5/8" in diameter with 48 splines.  In my search, I ran across a thread on "The Samba" where someone was saying that the splines are not supposed to be an exact fit, but rather the splines are there for friction.  Is this true?  I assumed that if you had 36 splines on the male end, you have to use 36 splines on the female end.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • VW-CHROME-STEERING-BOX-AND-SHAFT-COUPLER-17-2584

I concur with the Samba Dude.  While it would be nice to have them match spline count for spline count, when the clamping bolt is tightened to the proper torque (18 - 20 ft. lbs.) it clamps down on the splines, distorting them slightly and making a slip-proof connection.   You may have to spread the jaws open with a screw driver to get it on, then just assemble the clamping bolt according to Hoyle, making the bolt line up with the flat on the shaft.

edsnova posted:

Cable clutch all the way (until you flip the whole engine/transaxle thingie around and need a pulley for your clutch cable....). 

Thanks for the response, Jim. Maybe I'll dig out the bracket and install it.

Not really Ed, some trannies have a pull lever or a push lever so no need to have a pulley just use the right one. 

Alan Merklin posted:

 I don't know if would help you but I custom made & machined  still have) a VW spine to 3/4 x 7/8"  D shaft w/ a U joint adapter between them.

 

20190215_20234520190215_20264220190215_202633                                                            

Thank you for the kind offer, but I think that everything I am using is 5/8".  BTW, that is a nice looking piece of hardware.

Gordon Nichols posted:

I concur with the Samba Dude.  While it would be nice to have them match spline count for spline count, when the clamping bolt is tightened to the proper torque (18 - 20 ft. lbs.) it clamps down on the splines, distorting them slightly and making a slip-proof connection.   You may have to spread the jaws open with a screw driver to get it on, then just assemble the clamping bolt according to Hoyle, making the bolt line up with the flat on the shaft.

Before I counted the splines, I assumed that all 5/8" VW steering shaft hardware would have the same number of splines.  When they did not fit, I tried the screwdriver spread, but when it still did not fit, I had the idea to count the splines.  Other VW parts houses have the coupler and claim that their male end is 5/8" - 36, but the photos look exactly like the one I bought with 48 splines.  While that may sound silly, (who could tell 36 splines from 48 splines in a photo), it is not so difficult to see the finer splines.

Unless someone tells me not to before tomorrow morning, I am going to try the screwdriver option again and then insist that the ends fit.  I almost hope it does not work so I can figure out a way to make Dr. Clock's U-joint fit if only because it looks so darn cool.

Steering-U-joints

Thank goodness for small victories.  Got 2 U-joints and part of the steering coupler installed on the steering column.  Had to stop at the rag joint pad because I read what @DannyP had to say about the urethane pad, which I had ordered before I had read his comment.  I thought it might be a bit of exaggeration or anecdotal, but I read more about the urethane pads and it seems that quite a few people have had failure issues with the urethane pads, so I ordered an original pad and associated hardware from Wolfsburg West.  It will be a few days before I can install the pad and start measuring for the steering shaft and column.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Steering-U-joints
Last edited by Todd M
Todd M posted:
Stan Galat posted:

I too am one of the great unwashed, struggling along with a mere cable (the horror) to engage my clutch. I know it's unduly simple for a man clearly drawn to Rube Goldberg solutions to elementary problems, but I guess I just never found the act of pushing on a pedal to be particularly taxing on my left leg.

Perhaps it is my desire to make straightforward considerations into complex conclusions at war with my higher order ape physiology. When one has a physique not unlike an orangutan, devising a more complicated way to pull a clutch doesn't really enter my sloped forehead. 

I promise to do better, and will be calling OK Go to help me engineer a more complex solution. 

 

I did not think of it being more complex.  I only saw that it was more expensive.  And so I thought it must be better.  And now that I reflect on my reasoning, I realize how dumb that rationale is.  Oh well, the parts arrived this evening, so I will use what I got.

Todd, your rationale is not dumb.  You will be glad you installed the slave saver (which can appropriately be also named "flat-bed tow home saver".  That makes the cost of the slave saver a lot cheaper than dealing with an inevitable roadside calamity.  The slave saver is not a pricey but worthless trinket.

I learned this (inevitably) along the roadside.  I had installed my clutch slave much like illustrated in the thread above by EDSNOVA.  My (CNC) slaver's rod snapped at the thread roots on the clutch arm end. 

Reason:  Because the clutch arm stroke action was misaligned with the rigid axis of the slave's stroke. 

Solution:  The slave saver improves static mounting alignment with the clutch arm to reduce binding.  AND the rod-end connection maintains alignment through the arc of clutch arm travel.  Bottom line, the slave's shaft doesn't bind on every stroke, and eventually break; and the hydraulic seals in the saver's bore are saved from off-axis forces.

So there my wife and I were, stuck alongside the road with no clutch, about 15 miles from the barn.  How did we get home?  Fortunately for us I had installed a high-torque starter motor during the build.  I found that the starter motor had enough torque so that when in 1st gear with ignition On, I could get rolling on the starter motor fast enough that the engine would start.  Subsequently, shifting without the clutch is something we all know how to do.  On occasions when necessary to come to complete stop, turn off the ignition and apply brakes.  To get going again, repeat the process.

Stan  --  you can do this too, when your medieval clutch cable breaks. 

VW trans only pull toward the tailshaft of the trans to actuate the clutch. So in a mid-engine setup the slave cylinder just makes sense. The original Beck design used a pulley and a long cable. Later they switched to a custom reversing lever still using a cable.

The two Vintage Spyders I've had use hydraulic. Change the fluid every two years or you'll be buying a master and/or slave.

I use a slave saver. It moves the fixed pull point out from the trans so the slave pulls in a straight line rather than at an angle. Lasts longer that way.

I don't think it's particularly more expensive to go hydraulic. No brainer to do when building the car.

I don't seem to have any "feel" problems like some. I rather like it. It's not a super light effort either.

 

RS-60 mark posted...
 
...Stan  --  you can do this too, when your medieval clutch cable breaks. 

 

There's a 'clutch saver' of sorts for we Neanderthals who use a proper cable and it kinda applies the same principle - let things pivot smoothly through an arc instead of grinding themselves to death.

This deals with troubles at the other end - up near the pedal, where a bare metal hook often wears away or twists the cable. What amounts to a roller bearing replaces the hook.

Nothing to bleed - except your knuckles when installing it.

VWClutchCableRoller

 

Attachments

Images (1)
  • VWClutchCableRoller

The heavy pedal and "feel" issues I have found (and correct ted many times) are usually 1 of 2 things.  1) clutch master cylinder installed too high and not enough leverage and 2) mismatched clutch master and slave combination.  The bigger the master bore, the harder the pedal, but if you go too small you won't throw enough to pull the clutch...

chines1 posted:

The heavy pedal and "feel" issues I have found (and correct ted many times) are usually 1 of 2 things.  1) clutch master cylinder installed too high and not enough leverage and 2) mismatched clutch master and slave combination.  The bigger the master bore, the harder the pedal, but if you go too small you won't throw enough to pull the clutch...

Thanks.  I think Wildwood would agree with you.  I had to measure the brake caliper piston bore, and know the size of the slave cylinder bore before they would take my order for the two master cylinders, and they put most of the dimensions on-line so you can measure and mock up before ordering.  They recommended a 6.25 ratio over a 7.00 ration on the pedals, and it sounds like they know their stuff.  Gotta have a couple mounting plates fabricated and welded, because I don't know how to work metal or weld.  A couple of co-workers who have welders offered to help me weld them, but I am thinking that I will find a professional welder.  It seems like some of the local welders are mobile, so they will come to the car rather than me taking the car to them; very handy.

I am fortunate that there is a machine shop near me who never charges me anything.  He just says bring baked goods.  Sometimes I almost feel guilty.  I have never taken anything to him that requires this much fabrication.  With your thing, I would probably cut the pieces and drill the holes and then have someone weld it.  I buy metal pieces from Alro.  I don't know if they are everywhere.  They will cut pieces for a small fee.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Todd M posted:

 

Took my drawings to a local machine shop.  OH MY GOSH!!  $250!!!  Any suggestions for the next time I need something fabricated.

 

Maybe if you spec to the nearest .01", instead of .001", he'll knock a decimal place off his quote, too.

 

Yeah, that sounds right, for next time.  Good suggestion, thanks.

Michael McKelvey posted:

I am fortunate that there is a machine shop near me who never charges me anything.  He just says bring baked goods.  Sometimes I almost feel guilty.  I have never taken anything to him that requires this much fabrication.  With your thing, I would probably cut the pieces and drill the holes and then have someone weld it.  I buy metal pieces from Alro.  I don't know if they are everywhere.  They will cut pieces for a small fee.

The metal itself only costs $28.00.  The rest is time.  How do you cut a 1 1/2" hole in 1/4" thick steel?  I think I could drill the smaller holes, but I don't know how to drill large holes in steel.

Post Content
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×