Newbie with many questions

Looking great!

Back to radiator placement.

Shown above is the location and position of the radiator and condensor coil in a JPS with a Subaru engine.  Locating the radiator in this position in my project would take up a lot less space in the trunk than mounting it vertically, but cooling potential needs to take priority over space convenience.  For those of you who drive a Subaru JPS or any car with a horizontally mounted radiator, are there any overheating issues?  Does the fan stay on after the temp hits 170 degrees, or does it switch on and off like a radiator that has forced air flow? 

Also, it seems to me that the top of a 356 coupe would be a low pressure area and the underneath would be a high pressure area and the difference in the pressure would cause the air to flow OUT of the engine hood grill.  Does anybody have any facts or opinions on this?

@Todd M   I'm cornfused......(a state that I've grown accustomed to, it seems, and listening to the "Squirrel Nut Zippers" on the radio doesn't help).    

Does that car have a rack-and-pinion rack mounted behind the beam?  

Gordon Nichols posted:

@Todd M   I'm cornfused......(a state that I've grown accustomed to, it seems, and listening to the "Squirrel Nut Zippers" on the radio doesn't help).    

Does that car have a rack-and-pinion rack mounted behind the beam?  

I don't know.  I probably should have said that the car in the photo is not mine.  It is a photo I found by typing, "JPS Suby radiator", in Google.  My project does have rack and pinion and it is located just in front of the firewall.

Thanks goodness for small victories.

Steering is almost finished.  Gotta figure out what parts I need for the horn and gotta fabricate and paint a couple small tubes to cover those two screws under the dash.  Does anybody else have a Flat Four banjo steering wheel?   The wheel has a bit of play where the wires connect to the hub.  Not crazy about it.

To add tension to the banjo wheel,  tap on each of the three cross bars drawing them to the center, they will stay in place for awhile but after some steering wheel use they tend to back off tension. The fix is a spot of Super glue.

Todd M posted:

Thanks goodness for small victories.

Steering is almost finished.  Gotta figure out what parts I need for the horn and gotta fabricate and paint a couple small tubes to cover those two screws under the dash.  Does anybody else have a Flat Four banjo steering wheel?   The wheel has a bit of play where the wires connect to the hub.  Not crazy about it.

Rubber sleeves/bushings might work nicely. That way they can compress slightly when you tighten the bolts. If you don't get aluminum sleeves just right they may rattle if they're too short.

BTW - Very nicely done.

Judging from your button position it appears you are planning to have your Banjo wheel mounted with the spokes straight up rather than down.  Obviously, it's up to you and what you prefer, but I would recommend down so they don't interfere with your view of your gauges.

@Alan Merklin - Ahhhh, yes.  Do you CA glue the spokes to the hub, or the cross bars to the spokes, or both?

@Robert M - I was gonna use soft plastic for the same reason.  I am unsure whether or not rubber takes spray paint well.  Much of the steering mechanism will be hid by a fiberglass cover, but maybe black rubber will not look so bad.  My wife talked me into leaving the polished aluminum brackets unpainted, but they got scratched up from all my installing and fitting and uninstalling, so it is either polish them or paint them.

@Troy Sloan - I honestly had no idea how to orient the wheel.  Thanks for the advice.  BTW, is the photo from one of your cars?  And if so, where did you get the horn button.  I see them advertised for extravagant prices, and am debating the various options.  I ordered a VW crest button, but it is the wrong size.  Duh!

Set the 3 cross bars as much to the center to increase spoke tension ( don't force them too much) secure in place with a couple spots of Super Glue

Has anybody ever installed a under dash parking brake in their 356?  The lever in the photo is from the early '60s Mustangs and my thought is that it would look good with a different handle.

You can find original handles on eBay,  & 356 Registry.com.

FYI.  Greg Leach has developed a kit for an under the dash e-brake.  You probably already understand this, but there is more to it than just a handle and cable going back to the brakes.  There is also a lever that needs to go beneath the car to provide the leverage required to set the brake.

Troy Sloan posted:

FYI.  Greg Leach has developed a kit for an under the dash e-brake.  You probably already understand this, but there is more to it than just a handle and cable going back to the brakes.  There is also a lever that needs to go beneath the car to provide the leverage required to set the brake.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but truly I have not idea what is needed.  Like most of the parts and systems needed on my project, I see what I want, I figure out what it will take to make it work, start putting it together, throw a couple of photos up here to ask questions, find out that what I am doing is not going to work, and change it to fit with the advice given here.

Probably best to ask Greg and see how much the whole kaboodle costs.  Or does anyone know approximately how much Greg's e-brake kit costs?

Todd.  Why not just call him directly.  He's a nice guy and can explain it all to you first hand. Here's his number.  714-342-9095

Troy Sloan posted:

Todd.  Why not just call him directly.  He's a nice guy and can explain it all to you first hand. Here's his number.  714-342-9095

Yeah, that's what I meant.  I will email him or PM him cuz I actually have a few other parts that I need.

@Todd M wrote- "Also, it seems to me that the top of a 356 coupe would be a low pressure area and the underneath would be a high pressure area and the difference in the pressure would cause the air to flow OUT of the engine hood grill.  Does anybody have any facts or opinions on this?"

Looking at the side profile, both the Speedster and coupe are a little (albeit somewhat distorted) wing shaped. I believe a lot of aircooled engines in Speedsters are actually somewhat strarved for air and have been saying this for a while- air directed from under the car into the engine compartment would have multiple benefits. Not only would there be enough air to satisfy the fan and carburetors, but positively pressurizing the engine compartment would carry away radiated heat that would otherwise be re-ingested by the fan and carbs.

I don't have a running car to test this out in (I am working on it, guys), but a remote thermometer mounted in the engine compartment would tell you if there is a difference, as would an aquarium tubing manometer. We need someone to duct air into the engine compartment from the underneath the car airstream using some flexible 3 or 4" tubing to see what happens.

Some time ago I believe someone posted about doing this. @ALB

Todd M posted:

 

...Also, it seems to me that the top of a 356 coupe would be a low pressure area and the underneath would be a high pressure area and the difference in the pressure would cause the air to flow OUT of the engine hood grill.  Does anybody have any facts or opinions on this?

Todd, it seems like almost everybody has an opinion about this. It's one of those perpetual debates around here that won't go away. Like which oil is best. Or whether a Suby or a Type 1 is the way to go (see Ed's latest problems with burping all the air out of his home-engineered cooling system).

But actual facts? Those seem to be in very short supply. Not many of us have wind tunnels in our garages to do some definitive testing. So, car guys being car guys, most of us are convinced that we know what's really going on and what to do about airflow.

Just about everything imaginable has been tried. Some guys have plumbed in ductwork and fans and god knows what else to get more air to flow through the engine compartment, with most reporting no significant difference in oil temps.

I mounted a fan behind the 8-inch 'vent' that VS (and others) punched through the firewall. I don't think it affects oil temp much while running, but it seems to keep the engine compartment cooler after shutdown (like when I stop for gas), so there are fewer problems with gas percolating in the carbs, making restart easier.

Probably anything that would make much of a difference would look so ugly nobody would want to install it. Like those big side vents that Porsche engineers use to cool the engine on a Boxster.

Michael McKelvey posted:

Some time ago I believe someone posted about doing this. @ALB

Bruce (@aircooled) did a pretty good study of the airflow around the back of the car, but I guess it doesn't fit the folklore and common knowledge narrative, so nobody ever refers back to his findings.

We (here on this site) just talk about this as if nobody's ever looked into this in 80 years of hotrodding VWs. The giant fan attached to your engine is moving enough air to cool a 200 hp engine-- sucking it in the top and blowing it out the bottom. The engine needs more air FROM THE TOP. We are starving for topside air-- some of this is baked in the cake, but most of it is due to the tiny openings around the rain-tray.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, but facts are facts. 

Facts are facts!

Topside air is needed.  Lots of it.  Standoff's help a good deal.

Like it or not, it works.

molleur posted:

Facts are facts!

Topside air is needed.  Lots of it.  Standoff's help a good deal.

Like it or not, it works.

Lots of people have established that, both subjectively and objectively.

But on this site, we jump on people for not sealing the engine compartment with surround tin-- then advocate leaving a gap in it to "get air from the bottom" or cut a hole in the firewall for the same reason.

What these cars need is topside air. Standoffs (either on the leading or trailing edge) on the deck lid work, everybody that's ever had them can prove it. I'm 100% sure opening up the rain tray would work as well. Why we keep rehashing this remains one of the great SOC mysteries.

I would suggest to do both in a hot climate.

I think we keep rehashing this because most of the evidence is circumstantial.

Car A runs cool, so the last change made to it is credited with making it run cool. The same for Car B and Car C. Each owner has found a way to keep his car from overheating and thinks he's found the keys to the castle. But they're really only the keys to his castle, and won't necessarily open the door for someone else.

It's a very complicated equation. Every engine runs a little differently, makes different amounts of heat in various circumstances, and will dissipate that heat differently, depending on how it's configured. Every car lives in a different place - different climate, different driver, different roads.

And every engine bay is a little different, too, depending on what is open to the outside and what isn't, and which tins are in place. Take a look at how complex the VW tin system eventually became to appreciate just how complicated a problem the VW engineers thought it was.

Few of us have the necessary engineering credentials to do an appropriate analysis of our individual cars to see how best to cool them. And none of us has the needed equipment to do the job right. You need more than a thermometer and some string.

Like it or not, we are all just shooting in the dark. Sometimes we get lucky and hit the target, but we never really know if the bullet didn't ricochet off two walls and a frying pan before finding the mark.

Stan..... you brought up a good question for me.  How would I look up all those reports I did  when I was testing positive and negative pressures in/on and under my Speedster?  It may have been in 2014.

The real culprit is that rain tray and there are definitely ways to improve it to improve the cooling. I never needed that hole in the firewall either.  I'll probably drag out the ole trusty manometer again when I get my Spyder up and running. It's always fun and interesting and I get to drive more too !!.............Bruce

Ahhh-h-h-h-h, so that is why it took awhile for someone to answer.

aircooled posted:

The real culprit is that rain tray and there are definitely ways to improve it to improve the cooling. 

Well please, do tell.

Alan Merklin posted:

To add tension to the banjo wheel,  tap on each of the three cross bars drawing them to the center, they will stay in place for awhile but after some steering wheel use they tend to back off tension. The fix is a spot of Super glue.

Wow!  I didn't even have to tap on them.  I just used my hands to pull the crossbars toward the hub.  I guess they were really loose.  I couldn't use my CA glue, (woodworkers call super glue, CA glue), because the tip was glued shut yesterday.  Got another tip from my wife, so will throw some glue at it today.

Is the super glue needed just on the repro wheels?  The original Porsche banjo wheels were adjusted the same way, but once the bars were tapped in they tended to stay put all by themselves by the tension of the wires.  Then, you could re-adjust them every so often.

It retains the cross bar in place to maintain tension on the wires....has worked for me, your mileage may vary.

Darn!

When fitted to the column, there is a gap between the two sides of the turn signal housing.  That isn't normal is it?  Cuz it sure is ugly.  It never occurred to me that there might exist two or more different diameter bug columns.  The column and the turn signal are parts that came with the car, so I never thought to check to see if they fit.  Here is my question?  Are there different diameter VW bug steering columns?

This housing was black, so I sanded it all down, primered it, and painted it to match.  Que lastima.

The early columns are narrower and your signal switch is for that application.

I had one from an early bus that I put on my JPS. The bus column is smaller in OD than any Beetle. I took a drum sanding wheel on a die-grinder and opened up the ID of the switch until it fit on the column. It was not easy, but I was committed.

Good luck.

Todd M posted:

Thanks goodness for small victories.

Steering is almost finished.  Gotta figure out what parts I need for the horn and gotta fabricate and paint a couple small tubes to cover those two screws under the dash.  Does anybody else have a Flat Four banjo steering wheel?   The wheel has a bit of play where the wires connect to the hub.  Not crazy about it.

Todd, it just be the photo leading me astray, but what is the angle of your steering wheel relative to vertical ?  The center of my horn button is about level with the 5 position on the speedo or temp gauge . Yours ?

@Todd M,  the tube on a bus steering column is a smaller diameter than the tube on a beetle.  I used a '67 bus switch.  I used the bus housing on the left side and opened it up with a drum sander as Stan mentioned.  I used an early beetle housing on the right side and it fit without opening it up.  These early steering columns also have a short piece on the outside of the tube that runs from the switch housing toward the dash that conceals the wires.

Alan Merklin posted:

The early columns are narrower and your signal switch is for that application.

After doing online research, it appeared that the column/tube got larger around '62, and your comment is just the confirmation I needed.

@Stan Galat - Funny you should mention the sanding drum, because I was trying to figure out how I was going to enlarge the hole without making it look like a 1st grade craft project.  A sanding drum sounds perfect, or even an end of my stationary belt sander.  That sander has REALLY come in handy since I started having to alter, modify or fab my own parts.

@David Stroud IM Roadster D - Here are a couple of photos.  The profile of the steering wheel is taken with the camera as plumb as I could get it by eyesight.  The front of the steering wheel photo is taken from my projected seating position.

Do you see a problem.  I spent hours trying out different heights and angles.  It feels comfortable.  I generally drive with my left hand, at a seven position.

Todd M posted:

@David Stroud IM Roadster D - Here are a couple of photos.  The profile of the steering wheel is taken with the camera as plumb as I could get it by eyesight.  The front of the steering wheel photo is taken from my projected seating position.

Do you see a problem.  I spent hours trying out different heights and angles.  It feels comfortable.  I generally drive with my left hand, at a seven position.

If it seems comfortable you're likely just fine. I think the lack of the dash eyebrow may have thrown me off. 

There are clearance concerns with the clutch master cylinder when I mount/weld the brake pedal brakes to the frame, so I have to test fit with the the clutch line fitting installed.  The clutch master cylinder is from Wilwood, and it's made for a banjo fitting, 3/8-24.  Wildwood sells a banjo fitting for this master cylinder, so I will but it rather than looking for now that is less expensive. ( Hopefully I have learned my lesson that less expensive is more expensive if the part doesn't fit. )  The threaded end of the banjo fitting is AN-3, so I figure I will use AN-3 fittings on my clutch line to keep things simple on the clutch line, but the inlet fit spec on the slave cylinder is 3/8-24 IF Female. Does that mean the inlet flare is made for a 37 degree fitting or a 45 degree fitting?  My understanding is that the 45 degree is standard on domestic cars and the 37 degree is the AN standard.  Do I need to call Wilwood and ask, or does the 3/8-24 IF Female spec imply 45 degree?  Or am I just missing something entirely?

And when I go to install the brake lines, should I use 45 degree inverted double flare or AN-3?  The spec on the outlet size of the proportioning valve is 3/8-24 IF.  There is that 'IF' again without saying if is a 378 degree flare or a 45 degree flare.

Edit 5 minutes later:  I just realized.  "Inverted flare" means the tube is bent back on itself which only the 45 degree flare does, whereas the 37 degree flare is not inverted, so anytime I see "inverted flare", it means 45 degree.

@Stan Galat - AN fittings or IF for brake line and clutch line?  I thought somewhere I read that you are a plumber, so I figured you would have a educated opinion.

I’m in my truck, away from my desk, so this is the “phone answer”, without handy pictures. Perhaps someone else can put up pictures of what you need.

To begin: brakes are evil.

I’m a pipefitter, not a plumber, but inverted flares (which aren’t used for anything but hydraulics) really don’t get used for either. They’re used pretty exclusively for brakes. As an aside, the various permutations of pipe fittings can get really confusing really fast so don’t feel bad. 

The best thing I can suggest to straighten it out in your own mind would be to get the parts you want to use (master and slave cylinders, flexible lines), then take them to a NAPA auto-parts store and ask to see some 3/16 brake line and fittings that fit what you have. They won’t have everything, but that’s OK— you’re going to need some brake line anyhow. 

If it were me, I’d reduce the amount of screwed joints whenever possible. I would (and have) silver solder a joint rather than use a screwed adapter. I would avoid adapting from AN to IF (ever, if possible). I would not try to cut flares in steel line (45 or 37°) unless I had no other choice, and I’ve got professional quality tools and a long history of doing it.

As a final thought before I head back to the salt mines— getting the right fittings is always worth sending away for. 

Stan Galat posted:

I’m in my truck, away from my desk, so this is the “phone answer”, without handy pictures. Perhaps someone else can put up pictures of what you need.

To begin: brakes are evil.

I’m a pipefitter, not a plumber, but inverted flares (which aren’t used for anything but hydraulics) really don’t get used for either. They’re used pretty exclusively for brakes. As an aside, the various permutations of pipe fittings can get really confusing really fast so don’t feel bad. 

The best thing I can suggest to straighten it out in your own mind would be to get the parts you want to use (master and slave cylinders, flexible lines), then take them to a NAPA auto-parts store and ask to see some 3/16 brake line and fittings that fit what you have. They won’t have everything, but that’s OK— you’re going to need some brake line anyhow. 

If it were me, I’d reduce the amount of screwed joints whenever possible. I would (and have) silver solder a joint rather than use a screwed adapter. I would avoid adapting from AN to IF (ever, if possible). I would not try to cut flares in steel line (45 or 37°) unless I had no other choice, and I’ve got professional quality tools and a long history of doing it.

As a final thought before I head back to the salt mines— getting the right fittings is always worth sending away for. 

Muchas Gracias.

I'm gonna buy a lift.

Do the scissor jacks have too much upper structure that gets in the way of working on the car?

There are two Danmar MaxJax that I am interested in:

The first, DMJ-6 can be purchased for maybe $1699.00, and the M-6, which is ALI certified can be purchased for $2099.00.  I looked up ALI certified, and I can't help but wonder if both aren't constructed exactly the same.

Then there is:

which can be purchased on eBay for $1599.00 including shipping, https://www.ebay.com/itm/APlus...4:g:WhYAAOSwaiBb8D3y .  It would entail a permanent installation and necessitate a 220V line in my garage.  Anybody have any experience with either of these?  Or just an opinion?

I thought of the MaxJack at one point but for some reason the thought of setting and removing them I did not like plus leaving them up in the way was also an issue I felt that I could see a problem.  I wanted to try them but I also was wondering if I really had 4-6 inches of concrete and how to check it .. I guess I could see the advantages of a MaxJack but I can also see the danger of an imbalance load etc. 

So OCD set in and I bought Quickjack and honestly it does what I like as I don't remove engines or tranny etc.  I do wheels tires, oil fluid changes on tranny engine, brake etc big stuff I bring to my tech guy.   Also at 21 inches you get to do stuff on the car sitting on a 4 wheel seat and it's pretty confortable. 

What ever lift you decide on Be sure that it is a certified list.. there is  a lot of Chinese products that have failed and al you need to do is do a search on You Tube to see the results of using sub standard lifts. Also, make sure that your anchor system is up to the job of securing the lift to the floor.   BTW I had a 36" low rise scissor lift in my speedster shop and that worked well for the application ( even lifted my big F 150) but I would recommend a 42" mid rise scissor lift.

 Hola Todd.........I bought the Max Jack like you posted Todd and it works really nice. 48" lift so I can sit on my rear under there with plenty of room. I didn't know how thick my driveway was so I drilled 8 each 1/4" holes in various areas of it to find out. I used a piece of wire to fish down in the holes to get an idea how thick it was. Luck was on my side ! It was 7" and more !  I didn't use the wedge Molly bolts. I bit the bullet and used the more expensive Epoxy bolt system. To test it I was chicken to lift my Speedster on it first so I put our Honda Element on first. I didn't fall down so I put my 2017 GMC Canyon on next and it passed too !  The Max Jack pillars have a set of wheels on them to maneuver them in and out of my Garage so it's not really too cumbersome. The yellow lift arms are in pieces so they aren't too bad to maneuver either. 

After looking at a few systems I determined that the ones that have a "cross-bar" on the top is to hold up the hydraulic hoses and isn't designed to keep the two posts from caving in due to a post mounting failure.  Of course, my hoses just lay on the pavement to and from the pump/reservoir  which has wheels as well for maneuvering.

The shims they provide to get the posts perfectly vertical took a little messing around with the first time and so they are marked now so I know exactly where they are to be placed easily each time I mount the posts.  Mounting it is a chore ! Drilling 10 each 7/8" holes in 7' of concrete is not fun !  I started with a 1/4' hole and worked up. Keeping the holes from drifting off their position is also "touchy" !   The benefits when done are worth it though !

The other part that I like is I didn't have to wire in a 220V power source with the Max Jack.

Lastly, The City of Arcadia already came by when I had the Speedster up on it and told me I couldn't have a car hoist in my drive way.  I can tell you that this part of my driveway is obscured from view on three sides and the fourth by a gate. You really have to be looking carefully as you drive by to even notice when I have the car up on it. After showing him that it was portable and removable, he let me keep it. I'm sure he's been by to check since then and no more issues have occurred. I mention this because it could be a problem for others where your community has "covenants" or you mount this machinery right out in front of your home for everyone see and complain about it as an "eyesore" or "looks like a junk yard".  I'm lucky that it's mounted in a discreet area.   Hope this helps Todd................Bruce

Bruce you mean it's not in your front yard  

IaM-Ray posted:

I thought of the MaxJack at one point but for some reason the thought of setting and removing them I did not like plus leaving them up in the way was also an issue I felt that I could see a problem.  I wanted to try them but I also was wondering if I really had 4-6 inches of concrete and how to check it .. I guess I could see the advantages of a MaxJack but I can also see the danger of an imbalance load etc. 

So OCD set in and I bought Quickjack and honestly it does what I like as I don't remove engines or tranny etc.  I do wheels tires, oil fluid changes on tranny engine, brake etc big stuff I bring to my tech guy.   Also at 21 inches you get to do stuff on the car sitting on a 4 wheel seat and it's pretty confortable. 

 

I just looked up Quickjack and I like the price and the unobtrusiveness down the middle of the car.  I will be needing to spend a lot of time underneath the car welding on the frame and installing engine and transmission mounts.  I speculate that 21 inches may be too low for moving around a lot underneath.  What do you think?

Alan Merklin posted:

What ever lift you decide on Be sure that it is a certified list.. there is  a lot of Chinese products that have failed and al you need to do is do a search on You Tube to see the results of using sub standard lifts. Also, make sure that your anchor system is up to the job of securing the lift to the floor.   BTW I had a 36" low rise scissor lift in my speedster shop and that worked well for the application ( even lifted my big F 150) but I would recommend a 42" mid rise scissor lift.

I have never worked on a car with a scissor lift, so all I know is what I see in the photos.  Does the upper portion of the scissor lift get in the way if you are working on the center of the car?  If not, which scissor lift do you use?

The Scissor is affixed  I would set the car on the lift according to the work to be done   BEND PAK brand

_____________________________________________

aircooled posted:

 

Code for a garage floor is 3.5 inches, so I will have to drill around also to find out how thick my garage floor is if I go with a MaxJax.  Did you try using the holes in the plate as a guide for your bit, or are the verticals in a position to negate the use of the holes as guides?

I can not imagine installing a lift in my driveway.  My neighbors would have a fit, and the HOA would probably have a notice in the mail before I finished the installation.  We can't even leave a car parked on the street overnight.

Todd M posted:

aircooled posted:

 

Code for a garage floor is 3.5 inches, so I will have to drill around also to find out how thick my garage floor is if I go with a MaxJax.  Did you try using the holes in the plate as a guide for your bit, or are the verticals in a position to negate the use of the holes as guides?

I can not imagine installing a lift in my driveway.  My neighbors would have a fit, and the HOA would probably have a notice in the mail before I finished the installation.  We can't even leave a car parked on the street overnight.

He takes the lift apart and puts it away when he’s not using it. 

All good points to consider.  In my case the MaxJack is working out best for me.

Todd's floor thickness will be the determining factor for use of a MaxJack.  The 45" maximum lift height was the minimum for me on my needs list. Using a different lift pad I can get 3" more. Being able to put it away when not in use was a plus. Having used a scissors type lift previously, I knew I wanted a more unencumbered work area under the car to be exposed. Scissors lifts do have a place in our needs list at times though.   

My only regret with buying a lift was not getting one 20+ years ago. It makes it more enjoyable to do serious work while sitting on my duff under the car with a Stella Artois in the shelf of my brake stool under me.  I even built a short two shelf tool tray to have next to me when I'm under there..................Bruce

P.S.......Yes you can use the post mounting plate as a drill guide if you start out directly with the proper size bit for the Molly bolts.  But....It will take a long time to drill the holes this way.  Oh...DO go rent a big powerful hammer drill, with bits, right off.  You'll need it unless you just want to burn up your Craftsman 1/2" hammer drill

I bought the Harbor Freight medium rise scissor lift, rated for 6000 pounds.

It weighs about 950 pounds, but can be moved when needed. There is no permanent installation, it rests on a flat CONCRETE floor, not on blacktop or anything else.

I installed a 220v outlet for the hydraulic pump, not a big deal. I also made a 2.5'' or so platform to drive the car on, as my Spyder sits so low. The lift sits about 3.5" from the floor. For the platform I used the plywood from the crate it came in plus some 2x3" lumber that I ripped down to size(2"). Glue and screws hold the platform. Three long pieces and cross-pieces on the ends, and a couple pieces to hold the runners together on either end.

I plan to take it with me when I retire(and move!), it works great, especially with only a 1500 pound load. You can arrange the lift to leave both the front end and rear completely open from below. With the lift all the way up it's easy for brake/tire work, and cleaning bugs and tar.

Hint: Mother's Day(today!) 25% off coupon really helps, and shipping was about 100 bucks. I ordered mine exactly a year ago. Takes about a month to get.

PS: your car parks over the lift so it's really never in the way.

"I speculate that 21 inches may be too low for moving around a lot underneath.  What do you think?"

You're right.  Rolling around on your back while avoiding stuff down there AND wielding a welding nozzle will be difficult, at best, not to mention the backaches you'll probably get.  At the very least, for what you'll be doing, I would get a scissors lift like Danny has and be done with it unless you really wish to have a larger lift for the future.

I've helped build five BendPak 4-post lifts, one 10,000 and four 7,000 units.  I would strongly suggest that this is a 3 or 4 person job - those upright posts on either two or four post versions are HEAVY!  We built six of them all in two weeks (I was in a car club and we did a bulk buy of six of them) and always used the floor plate as a drill guide.  The first one took over 2 days because we didn't know what we were doing and read the instructions a lot (and had issues with the safety lock air lines).  The last one was assembled and erected  in a little over a morning by four guys and a Border Collie.

One of the club members worked at Suncoast Rentals so we got a couple of hammer drills with a bunch of bits and went at it.  Two were set up in what used to be an old warehouse building (the 7K and 10K) for the Club Garage/shop and the other four were erected in private garages (indoors).  I have never dealt with a 2-post lift and would probably only buy a 4-poster if I had the room and 220 volts (and money!)   

While there are lots of outside lifts all across the sunbelt down south, I would keep it indoors just to prevent rusting of moving parts.

Gordon Nichols posted:

I have never dealt with a 2-post lift and would probably only buy a 4-poster if I had the room and 220 volts (and money!) 

If you are buying this to work on cars, as opposed to storing them, a 2-post lift is better in every possible way. 4-post for storage and light work, 2-post to work on the car.

Every commercial shop in America has 2-post lifts. There’s nothing wrong with a 4-post lift to store a specialty vehicle with the daily driver underneath, but it’s not really meant for working on a car  

I can’t imagine paying for something that didn’t lift at least 42”. If headroom is the issue, and a 2-post lift just isn’t possible, Danny’s scissor-lift is a great alternative. 

Maximum height off the floor is stated as 56" on mine, plenty to do almost anything, except stand up underneath. I can't raise the lift all the way anyway, as my garage ceiling is just over 7' tall.

If you have a mechanic's seat you can roll underneath without banging your head.

Lots of times I raise the car a couple feet plus, and use the creeper.

It's WAY better than jack and jackstands.

A four post list means you can;'t work between the wheels as well.  Just saying  Sound advice on all the comments.

I have owned a 4 post lift for 13 years now. It was bought for the storage capability and to allow me to work on cars. My lift came with movable metal trays that hold a jack each so a car can be raise up off the lift to work on suspension and brakes. It does both functions great and I have had zero trouble with it. I cant remember the brand but I bought it at the street cat nationals 13 years ago and got a deal on the show model . I do have a high ceiling garage that allows me to raise the car over 6' high.  It is the best car related tool I have ever bought. I spent years laying on my back working on cars while dirt and rust fell into my face and eyes. I think the lift cost less than $2000.00. I kicked myself for not buying one sooner.

@Jimmy V. Very nice

How did we ever get anything done before the internet?  How did we compare prices?  And features?  Maybe it was simpler because we only had one or two choices or one opinion from someone we trusted, but this is amazing.  Not only do I get the answers that I am looking for, but I get information that I didn't even think to ask.

@aircooled - If you ever need a corded rotary hammer, you can borrow mine.  It drills concrete faster than I am comfortable with.  I have learned that I HAVE to set the depth gauge or else it will drill the hole too deep before I realize what has happened.  The Dannmar site says free shipping and lift gate service is $100 extra.  Did you get it off the truck?  At truck deck height?

@DannyP - 25% off Mother's Day coupon at Harbor Freight.  That's hilarious.  Can you imagine telling your wife that you are going down to Harbor Freight to get her a Mother's Day present?

With the center portion it allows you to raise the car to do the brake jobs so if you have room on top it is one of the best options .. 

IaM-Ray posted:

With the center portion it allows you to raise the car to do the brake jobs so if you have room on top it is one of the best options .. 

I am not considering a four post lift because they are too wide.  There is a way to fit a permanent type two post lift in my garage, and the MaxJax two post could fit in multiple places in my garage.  After reading everyone's feedback, I have talked myself into the MaxJax.  Now, I have to get the best possible price including shipping and delivery to my garage, or at least drive way.  I am thinking that if I can get in on my driveway, I can open it up and use a dolly to move the heavy parts.

@aircooled - Is it possible to open the box/pallet, and move the posts or other heavy parts using a regular size dolly?  I am trying to think of ways to not have to pay extra delivery costs.

I saw a two post lift with a short height needed which was not a Max Jack as well.  I think the maxjack comes on wheels so Bruce can help there. 

My 4 post lift came with rollers that allow you to move the lift around the garage easily. They don't need to be bolted to the floor and I am glad I didn't do that. My lift came with me when I moved. The lift can be moved without taking it apart. You pull a flat bed car trailer under the lift and lower the rails down onto the trailer and the hydraulics pull the legs up off the ground and you just drive off. Easy peasey.

Jimmy V. posted:

My 4 post lift came with rollers that allow you to move the lift around the garage easily. They don't need to be bolted to the floor and I am glad I didn't do that. My lift came with me when I moved. The lift can be moved without taking it apart. You pull a flat bed car trailer under the lift and lower the rails down onto the trailer and the hydraulics pull the legs up off the ground and you just drive off. Easy peasey.

That is amazing.

Don't worry if your garage floor isn't thick enough Todd. Just use a concrete saw to cut out a square large enough to make a new footing and pour a new one if you need to. It wouldn't be that difficult.

Robert M posted:

Don't worry if your garage floor isn't thick enough Todd. Just use a concrete saw to cut out a square large enough to make a new footing and pour a new one if you need to. It wouldn't be that difficult.

That is what I figured I would do if I don't have the required 4 inches.  Since I don't have a real concrete saw, ( go figure ), I was thinking I could cut as deep as possible with a 7 1/4 with diamond blade, and then knock out the rest.  I have a older, very cheap Porter-Cable that has a diamond blade rusted on, so I use it as my "dedicated" concrete saw.  My wife has become very skilled at pointing a water jet from a squeeze bottle at the point at which the saw enters the material.

Todd..get the lift gate service. That way it will be on your driveway before you touch it. Yes, you can unbox it right there, Get out the wheels and put them on with a few other things and wheel it where you want to go.

I would think a  24" by 96" rectangular square cut out of your floor should give you enough to pour a footing between the posts.. The footing under the posts probably should be about 24" deep.   BUT ! I'm no engineer and this may not be enough. There's a few engineers on here that can give you a better and educated recommendation on this. By virtue of me making the one I did above, it's most likely one of those engineers will will dispute mine and give you a better one !   Ha....information is power ! ....Bruce

Todd....Just an after thought !  What if your concrete slab is 3 and 3/4"  to   3 and 7/8". ?

Knocking a 1 ft square hole in your concrete, then pouring it back an inch or 2 thicker will greatly weaken the pad. The net effect would be to have the lift posts essentially sitting on the ground, with a piece of concrete between the post and whatever is under the floor. If your substrate is granite sitting just below the floor, you're in great shape. Otherwise, you've built your house on the proverbial sand. 

A concrete slab is meant to be monolithic, which is why strong concrete is tied together with rebar (or at least with a metal mesh). The idea is that the load of whatever is on top is distributed through the entire slab. Knocking a hole in it takes all that away.

I would recommend that if you cut a hole, you cut it at least 3x as big as you think you'd need it to be, and then try to tie back into the existing slab by drilling in rebar horizontally. But if your slab is too thin to start with, this is a waste of time.

If your concrete is too thin, you'd be WAY better off to get a couple of decent sized pieces of 1/4" plate steel, get the concrete completely clean, then epoxy the plates to the floor, and use 1/4" drive anchors along the perimeter of the plates to secure it. The plates could have hardware welded to them to anchor the posts of your portable lift.

About the only other solution is to beat up the entire floor, dig it out a few inches, get rebar tripods, lay out a rebar grid, and pour it back to 5- 6" with higher test concrete and "kitty-hair" fiber mesh additive. 

Any Civil engineers on here?   

aircooled posted:

Todd....Just an after thought !  What if your concrete slab is 3 and 3/4"  to   3 and 7/8". ?

Nobody has a perfectly flat substrate under a floor. If it’s 3-3/4”- 3-7/8” thick, that’s a (nominal) 4” pour. 

The garage floor at the Emanuel Ln  house in Tremont was 4”, with wire over clay. It cracked. When I built the Monroe St house, I knew I wanted a 2-post lift. The floor is 6” thick (6000 lb concrete), with rebar on an 18” grid, and fiber mesh in the mix. Under the posts (under the floor) are two 36”, 2’ thick piers. 

It’s overkill, but too much is WAY better than not enough. 

Not a Civil but, like Stan I've built a couple of houses/garages and I totally agree, especially with adding a couple of 1/4"- 3/8" steel plates between the lift foot and the floor to spread the weight - I would make them twice the size of the feet.  Digging out your current floor and pouring a deeper footing would make things weaker, not stronger.  

I never expected to have a lift here when I built my current 2-car garage, so it has a 6" pour (that settled to about 5" - we poured on a 100F day) with no reinforcing rods or mesh and it sits on top of what used to be a gravel pit so it's about as stable as gravel fill can get.  It cracked in two places the first winter, but the cracks are minor.  Re-bar would have prevented that, for sure.

I’d make the plates at least 3’ square, and yes— 3/8” would be way better than 1/4”.

Gordon Nichols posted:

Not a Civil but, like Stan I've built a couple of houses/garages and I totally agree, especially with adding a couple of 1/4"- 3/8" steel plates between the lift foot and the floor to spread the weight - I would make them twice the size of the feet.  Digging out your current floor and pouring a deeper footing would make things weaker, not stronger.  

I never expected to have a lift here when I built my current 2-car garage, so it has a 6" pour (that settled to about 5" - we poured on a 100F day) with no reinforcing rods or mesh and it sits on top of what used to be a gravel pit so it's about as stable as gravel fill can get.  It cracked in two places the first winter, but the cracks are minor.  Re-bar would have prevented that, for sure.

 

Did you have to get it inspected?  Code here is: "Concrete slabs placed on grade or expansive soil shall be reinforced with not less than 1/2" reinforcing steel at 24" on center or 3/8" reinforcing steel at 18" on center, each way."  

@Stan Galat

What do you think of digging underneath the existing slab and pouring a steel and concrete foundation under the area where the posts will go?

I think that sounds a lot harder and more expensive than steel plate, and a lot less positive. 

If this was me, I’d try it with what you have, and pay close attention to the floor. If it starts cracking, then I’d get plates made. 

The shared force is downward - vertical to the floor with some load being lateral ( inward with a car on the lift ) 4" minimum concrete w/ the epoxy / bolt mounting system and a cross bar to each of the two posts will share that lateral load.

Stan Galat posted:

I think that sounds a lot harder and more expensive than steel plate, and a lot less positive. 

If this was me, I’d try it with what you have, and pay close attention to the floor. If it starts cracking, then I’d get plates made. 

Yeah, I think you are right about the relative expense and difficulty.

aircooled posted:

Todd....Just an after thought !  What if your concrete slab is 3 and 3/4"  to   3 and 7/8". ?

I'll find a "better" scale.  Or maybe I will use a meter tape and mistake the centimeters for inches.  Or maybe I will round up.  After all, I think the specs. call for 4 inches with the significant figure to an inch.  If it measures 4 1/4 inch, I will grind off a 1/4 inch.  

I knew there would be better & safer ideas for you Todd.  The 3 ft. X 3 ft X 3/8" plate, that Stan mentioned, epoxied to your floor seems like a safe one. Molly bolt that down with more of the same ones provided with the hoist and you may be good to go !  I know one thing. When you first put a car on it, you'll be standing as far aways as you can, with your finger on the switch, ( a procedure pre-visualized in your head how to get it into reverse) and a fire extinguisher in a place that you know for sure it's there. Your focus will be intense and you may be breathing shallow as your "test car" goes on a maiden voyage!..................Bruce

Todd M posted:

 Did you have to get it inspected?  Code here is: "Concrete slabs placed on grade or expansive soil shall be reinforced with not less than 1/2" reinforcing steel at 24" on center or 3/8" reinforcing steel at 18" on center, each way."  

That's quite the code.

I did everything this way (including the sidewalks, which the city absolutely did not want), but my house ended up costing 2x what any comparable home in the area could ever sell for, and I did most of it myself. Complying with the 2014 national building code (which most small municipalities have adopted wholesale) increases the cost of construction by probably 50%. Being anal-retentive accounts for the other 50%.

Codes have gone over the top. I realize that I sound like a curmudgeonly old man, but this hits a nerve. The codes regarding arc-fault/ground-fault electrical alone more than double the cost of an electrical job here. Homes stopped burning down due to electrical problems 50 years ago, when contractors started using circuit breakers (instead of fuses) and running Romex with a ground wire instead of cloth-covered 2-wire. Every successive code has been a solution in search of a problem. Don't believe me? Try running your refrigerator on a GFCI circuit.

... but the codes I contend with downstate are nothing like what @Tom Boney deals with on a daily basis.

Chicago still requires electrical in conduit, cast-freaking-iron drain pipes, and copper water lines. Some of that I can see the point on, but cast-iron DWV is worse than Sch 40 PVC by any objective metric. That particular code exists only to keep the plumbers local union busy and highly paid on into perpetuity. Running cast iron easily takes 4x as long as PVC DWV.

If I tried to build homes in the city (as Tom does), I'd end up doing bodily harm to one of the inspectors, which is why I'm (mostly) happy to live in flyover country.

"If I tried to build homes in the city (as Tom does), I'd end up doing bodily harm to one of the inspectors, which is why I'm (mostly) happy to live in flyover country."

That seems to be the feeling one gets as we get nearer to 60 ... 

Last night we got TWO text messages at 5 am, all the cell phones rang with a weird end of the world buzzer.  A notice from the police state we live in.  

Both to ask us to call 911 if we spotted a 3 y.o. kid with a young black women.   I called the radio station news this morning and ask if it was the young childs mother?  No one knew.   

But it was such that the whole world had to be woken up.... to do what exactly at 5 am?

Social media has given legislators the right to use our phones as their own... Can I get the PM's (PrimeMinister) telephone number so I can call him at 5 am regularly.  

It used to be you could turn off your tv, not buy a newspaper and have piece and quiet now you cannot even turn off your device or put it on private if you use it as a wake up alarm.  The government won't let you... I just wished they went back to air raid siren for end of the world announcements.

Todd wrote: "Code here is: "Concrete slabs placed on grade or expansive soil shall be reinforced with not less than 1/2" reinforcing steel at 24" on center or 3/8" reinforcing steel at 18" on center, each way." 

Holy Moly!  That's pretty stringent.  The key there is "expansive soil" which means soil with the potential to move/shift/frost heave/etc.  Even for that, here in southern NE they only require 4" - 6" of concrete and a 4" square steel mesh (looks like a net sitting 2" - 3" off the gravel).

So..... When I built my latest 24 sq. ft.  2-car "GarageMahal" in 2006, all they asked for was a 4" pour but the gravel ended up a little low so we poured 6" to make up for it (What's a few more bux for mud, right Stan?)

The interesting part was, we poured the floor before the garage was built and it was over 100F that day - The stuff was starting to dry as it came down the chute.  We had 6 guys, including me, leveling and floating it, one guy using one of those upside-down helicopter-looking floaters, and my wife was keeping the surface misted with a garden hose.  Fastest finish job I had ever seen.......

Stan Galat posted:

I think that sounds a lot harder and more expensive than steel plate, and a lot less positive. 

If this was me, I’d try it with what you have, and pay close attention to the floor. If it starts cracking, then I’d get plates made. 

Ordered the lift today.  Priced steel plates, also.  2' x 2' x 1/2" cost $127 each!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  2' x 2' x 1/4" cost $62 each.  I am fairly sure I can easily drill 1/4.  1/2" makes me a little squeamish.  To drill into 1/2", do you start with smaller holes and enlarge them?  My guess is that I would get one hole out of my Harbor Freight step bit.

And the 1/2" weighs 81 lbs. each!!!

Prices for those plates aren't bad. Online metal has A36 hot rolled 3/8-inch 2-foot square at $206 each today. 

Still beats the hell out of pouring a new garage floor tho.

It does. 

I will look forward to seeing picts of your set up @Todd M

As an Architect and Construction Manager, I deal w/ codes, the building department, inspectors, and the fire marshal on a daily basis.  The easiest I've dealt with were projects for the VA and Middle East.  California, as most of you know, operates like its own strict country.  I get it though.  We live in litigious times.  Everyone is so concerned about the ramifications of their approvals.  While the code may appear black and white, it does offer, to a degree, the opportunity for interpretation.  There have been a number of times I have had meetings (especially on-site) with inspectors and/or the fire marshal and got them to see things from my perspective; which culminated in a significant savings.

Don't be afraid to speak with the inspector and tap their brains.  Remember, they just want to cover their #ss.

So true, sound logic, persistence, patience and congeniality are all needed to encourage the process along as well as the law enforcers in whatever area a brought along to a new conclusion.   Sometimes a long process.

Kevin - Bay Area posted:

As an Architect and Construction Manager, I deal w/ codes, the building department, inspectors, and the fire marshal on a daily basis.  The easiest I've dealt with were projects for the VA and Middle East.  California, as most of you know, operates like its own strict country.  I get it though.  We live in litigious times.  Everyone is so concerned about the ramifications of their approvals.  While the code may appear black and white, it does offer, to a degree, the opportunity for interpretation.  There have been a number of times I have had meetings (especially on-site) with inspectors and/or the fire marshal and got them to see things from my perspective; which culminated in a significant savings.

Don't be afraid to speak with the inspector and tap their brains.  Remember, they just want to cover their #ss.

I don't mind the code so much.  The four vertical supports for that patio are 9" x 9".  The beams on top of the verticals are something like 8" x 16",  and the hip rafters are about 6" x 12" because we are in a fire zone.  The foundations for the vertical posts are 48" x 48" x 48", and I have no idea why.  I was just happy to get the plans approved and start building.

IaM-Ray posted:

I will look forward to seeing picts of your set up @Todd M

I guess that means I will have to clean up the garage.

Todd M posted:

IaM-Ray posted:

I will look forward to seeing picts of your set up @Todd M

I guess that means I will have to clean up the garage.

Hell, I'm coming over for the weekend. Nice view you have there Todd...   

Nice digs for sure.... the warm states sure give you a lot of outside living space. 

Lest we forget. Building inspectors, Building Departments ARE just covering their A$$ but the bottom line is yours under that hoist.

I would use the 1/2" plates and bevel the edges with a hand grinder so you don't trip on them. Start with a 3/8" drill and work up in 1/32" increments. Your HF drill should last. Stop and take a break and grind on the bevels while the drill cools off then go back to drilling while the hand grinder cools off. If you drill the holes for the hoist bolts first, they will make nice drill guides after the plates are bolted down. Once you got all the holes drilled you could send them out and get them powder coated for a nice and lasting appearance.

You have a beautiful home Todd ! Where do you live ? Don't forget the Pomona Swap Meet next month.............Bruce

I saw this carpet kit on eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PORSC...f:g:6fkAAOSw4OhckTsS

I don't see any fasteners.  What is used to hold it down and in place?  Contact cement?

Glue, what kind I am not completely sure but I think it is contact cement.  @Alan Merklin should chime in... Mr. Builder himself _ 

Chewing gum or velcro, perhaps?

I used a can of contact cement from Home Depot..........Bruce