Skip to main content

In past builds I used 3M Super 90 spray adhesive ( green can ) They are expensive at $14 a can and you'll need at least 4 cans....Spraying that stuff is a huge inhalation - lung hazard and not to be taken lightly.  Buy a 2 quarts of contact cement but still use a decent mask and do so in a well ventilated area. You do not have to cover every square inch of the carpet backing

Last edited by Alan Merklin
Michael McKelvey posted:

I didn't use spray because I was concerned about overspray.  The liquid adhesive I used worked well to get the carpet to conform to the car shape.

I think of 3M Super 90 as contact cement in a spray.  What liquid adhesive did you use?  From what I see on tv it looks like upholsters use liquid contact cement and they spray it.

 

Last edited by Todd M
Stan Galat posted:
Todd M posted:

 Did you have to get it inspected?  Code here is: "Concrete slabs placed on grade or expansive soil shall be reinforced with not less than 1/2" reinforcing steel at 24" on center or 3/8" reinforcing steel at 18" on center, each way."  

That's quite the code.

I did everything this way (including the sidewalks, which the city absolutely did not want), but my house ended up costing 2x what any comparable home in the area could ever sell for, and I did most of it myself. Complying with the 2014 national building code (which most small municipalities have adopted wholesale) increases the cost of construction by probably 50%. Being anal-retentive accounts for the other 50%.

Codes have gone over the top. I realize that I sound like a curmudgeonly old man, but this hits a nerve. The codes regarding arc-fault/ground-fault electrical alone more than double the cost of an electrical job here. Homes stopped burning down due to electrical problems 50 years ago, when contractors started using circuit breakers (instead of fuses) and running Romex with a ground wire instead of cloth-covered 2-wire. Every successive code has been a solution in search of a problem. Don't believe me? Try running your refrigerator on a GFCI circuit.

... but the codes I contend with downstate are nothing like what @Tom Boney deals with on a daily basis.

Chicago still requires electrical in conduit, cast-freaking-iron drain pipes, and copper water lines. Some of that I can see the point on, but cast-iron DWV is worse than Sch 40 PVC by any objective metric. That particular code exists only to keep the plumbers local union busy and highly paid on into perpetuity. Running cast iron easily takes 4x as long as PVC DWV.

If I tried to build homes in the city (as Tom does), I'd end up doing bodily harm to one of the inspectors, which is why I'm (mostly) happy to live in flyover country.

Oops,  Stan.  Can you expand on...."Try running your refrigerator on a GFCI  circuit"

I just this week did that . A  20 amp,  12  gauge wire, home run.   20 amp GFI.

Thanks, Art

I can't run the freezer in my basement on a GFCI breaker.  Whenever the compressor comes on, the momentary surge trips the breaker.  Same thing in my shop if I use my Sawzall on the GFCI circuit - Just touch the trigger and the breaker trips.  Other, non-GFCI circuits are fine.  Been meaning to swap that breaker for a while - just haven't yet gotten around to it.

Interesting. 20 years ago I installed a new frige in my house and ran a GFCI to the new spot for it and plugged it in and it worked fine for the 4 years or so I lived there.

I believe "electrical fires" are not the problem GFCIs are aiming at, but rather "throw this tape deck in the tub when White Rabbit peaks."

With properly-wired GFCIs this whole dramatic betrayal could have been avoided.

Art posted:
Can you expand on...."Try running your refrigerator on a GFCI  circuit"

I just this week did that . A  20 amp,  12  gauge wire, home run.   20 amp GFI.

Thanks, Art

 Sure.

An inductive load will work on a GFCI when everything is new. As the windings in the motor start to wear, that GFCI will trip, usually at a really inconvenient time. It might not be now, or in two weeks, or in two years-- but it will trip someday. Your refrigerator will be fine, and the only way you'd ever be able to pick up what was going on would be with a meg-ohm meter. The solution would be to replace the compressor and motors, or to buy a new fridge.

Or just take the GFCI out.

Same deal with any inductive load-- tools with motors, etc. Once the GFCI trips a few times, it's weaker, and will trip more easily the next time. 

And yes, as Ed suggested-- the arc-fault/ground-fault codes are not meant to keep houses from burning down. They're meant as a safety-- you know, for all the people who take baths with their toasters on the ledge. It's a solution in search of a problem.

aircooled posted:

Stan...You got me on that "windings start to wear". How do windings wear ? I thought they were purposely glued-varnished-wedged with wood-paper wrapped and what ever to not move at all..........Bruce

It's been 40 years (or more) since windings had wood or paper. The more efficient the motor, the thinner the varnish, and the hotter the windings get. Appliances cost about what they did 40 years ago, so something has to give. Almost all little bitty motors are of east Asian, or Indian, or Brazilian manufacture, and are sold to manufacturers at nearly zero profit. Appliances are made to be completely disposable now.

Windings get hotter than they used to, the varnish is thinner than it used to be, and they do "wear", as in the varnish breaks down and creates a ever so slight path to ground-- not enough to shock anybody or to trip a breaker, but enough to see with a very good (crank-type) meg-ohm meter.

Sometimes, the winding insulation is cheesy enough, or the refrigerant (which spills over the windings in a compressor) has enough continuity to occasionally trip a GFCI breaker, even when new. I took care of a place that replaced 3 new compressors on a 2-dr. reach in before I just changed the breaker. We never had a problem again.

You can do as you wish, if you're afraid of dying by touching your refrigerator, but I'm never coming home from vacation to a freezer full of spoiled food.

Last edited by Stan Galat

Got it Stan !  I just didn't understand your use of the word "wear".  Yes, motor manufacturers try to make electric motors more job specific to save mfg. cost. There used to be more of a "one size fits all" era.   Recently I bought a used   Baldor 2hp,  220v motor on Ebay. It had slightly noisy bearings so I decided to replace them plus inspect and clean the inside in the process.   Bought a pair of good US made bearings.  The inside of that Baldor was a work of art. Totally brushless, the armature was solidly made and insulated such that I could hardly see the laminations. The field windings were heavily varnished along with the paper and bakelite separators. Since it is a sealed motor housing, there was very little dirt and debris inside so cleaning was easy. I replaced the bearings and reassembled it and plugged it in.  It was flawless and quiet !  I could have bought a new motor for $100 + at Harbor Freight or Rockler  etc. or buy a new Baldor for $500 or so. I went differently and bought the used Baldor on Ebay for $94.00 plus $17.00 for a couple bearings. Why ? The inside of a  Baldor is extremely well built and should last forever (bearings excepted).  I guess thats why they cost around $500 new. Finally, I'd guess that the used motor I bought is more than 30 years old.........Bruce

Now here is a guy I like he buys parts as old as he is. ... Just kidding but real craftsmanship is sometimes going backwards...

Speaking of backwards, my kenmore plastic gear sewing machine went south so I just bought 3 old singer sewing machines, all metal, from the 60-70's and gave them to my daughters ... Hey I even sewed a small leather project with it in 5 minutes.

Built to last !  

Ray..... Some of those old Singers were so heavy they could be used for boat anchors ! I tried sewing some upholstery on my Wife"s new machine and bent it. The old Singers and Kenmore's will do the job.  I burned up the armature in my old Craftsman wood router using it to do edge round overs on 1/2" T-6061 aluminum plate. A replacement armature from Sears cost $17.00 and was made for Sears by Singer. Ha !  Wouldn't ya know !........Bruce

For installation of a MaxJax, my garage floor is out 5/8" from one column to the other column.  I am thinking the best fix is to epoxy down a 1/2" thick or 5/8" thick plate of aluminum or steel to the floor.  What say you?  I prefer aluminum to steel, because I know that I can drill the holes in the aluminum, but not so sure about the steel.

It seems like the other way, grinding 5/8" off the high side is not preferred because it's a garage floor and I will probably need every 1/16" of thickness I can get for the bolts.

Or, I could pour a small, 5/8" thick slab of concrete and steel with short rebar posts to the existing slab?

What do you think?Garage-Floor-Level

five-eighths

Attachments

Images (2)
  • Garage-Floor-Level
  • five-eighths

Will you be pulling a permit for this installation or flying under the Radar of the local Building inspector?

If pulling a permit, then you’ll have to ask him/her what to do and adhere to that advice.

If doing a stealth mission, I would just slap down a 1/2” -  5/8” plate on the low end under the upright and be done with it.   

Remember that most garage floors are pitched downward towards the door to allow water to run out the door.  Grinding the high end down should not be an option.

In the construction industry when we need to raise a steel column we raise the column with nuts under the column threaded on your anchor stud and then we use structural dry pack which is actually "wet"underneath the plate.  works on huge loads for multiple story buildings. You probably can Google the process. We of course put nuts on top as you would usually do. Best of luck.

Last edited by michel
michel posted:

In the construction industry when we need to raise a steel column we raise the column with nuts under the column threaded on your anchor stud and then we use structural dry pack which is actually "wet"underneath the plate.  works on huge loads for multiple story buildings. You probably can Google the process. We of course put nuts on top as you would usually do. Best of luck.

How  funny.  I am a land surveyor and we set one of the those nuts on each column at  the bottom base plate elevation for cantilever and bridge signs.  I should have explained that this installation uses concrete anchor sleeves and bolts.  No anchor studs here.

Todd...I don't think you need to worry about that difference. In your instructions, I think,  just tell you to be sure that each stand/pillar needs to be square to each other and plumb  on the  N. E. S. & West  sides. That 5/8" difference will be compensated for hydraulically as the lift arms touch your car to lift it.  On mine I had to use the shims supplied to get them both plumb.  I painted the number of shims required for Plumb at or near each hole in the base so I could repeat it later when I haul them out to mount and use again................Bruce.

Todd M posted:
michel posted:

In the construction industry when we need to raise a steel column we raise the column with nuts under the column threaded on your anchor stud and then we use structural dry pack which is actually "wet"underneath the plate.  works on huge loads for multiple story buildings. You probably can Google the process. We of course put nuts on top as you would usually do. Best of luck.

How  funny.  I am a land surveyor and we set one of the those nuts on each column at  the bottom base plate elevation for cantilever and bridge signs.  I should have explained that this installation uses concrete anchor sleeves and bolts.  No anchor studs here.

It's the same principle. Just get longer bolts,  Put a correct sleeve/ bushing under plate and pack it.

Drilling holes in concrete!  Fun!  Not being sarcastic.  What guy does not like drilling holes in concrete.

Drilling-hole-in-concrete

I bought a brand new Milwaukee 7/8" concrete coring bit so that I would know that the holes were as close to 7/8" as I could get, but the bit was 0.923" in diameter.  How bizarre.  I can't imagine that Milwaukee's quality standards are that low.  Must have been some type of mistake on the labeling or something.

So, I already had a 7/8" masonry bit and am using that.  So far, so good, at least the drilling part.  I don't want to take off my template and see if the anchor slides in correctly, because I am very unsure of how close I can get the template to where it is now when replacing it.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Drilling-hole-in-concrete

One column installed, and it is only 1/8" from plumb on one axis; easily shimmed.  The other five holes are drilled also, and I still haven't decided the best way to compensate for the 5/8" elevation difference.  Guess I'll sleep on it.

First-column-installed

And some great news, I found that I do not own a 15/16" socket, which means I get to buy one, or a set.  I love buying tools, more than making holes in concrete.

Oh yeah, the concrete was 4 1/2" to 5 inches deep.  Perfect.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • First-column-installed
Last edited by Todd M
barncobob posted:

instead of trying to get the 5/8 from the floor elevation how about adding 5/8 to the lift  arms itself, the attaching arms that swing out, shim, weld, spacers whatever on the low end,,,trying to think outside the box here

Good question.  It is a surveyor thing.  I build freeways, highways to those of you who live outside California, and it is part of my job description to find and fix discrepancies where they lie, rather than make up the diff someplace else.  It probably isn't necessary in this case, but it is habit, and if I didn't fix it in the floor, it would bother me every time I looked at it.  Don't ask me how I know that?

Construction Surveyors do not think outside the box.  They lay out the box per the engineering plans.

aircooled posted:

Todd...I'm a little leary of those cracks in your slab and how close they are to your lift.  Are you not concerned about them ? If not, why ?..........Bruce

There is steel in the concrete.  We have had  a couple of 4,000 lb. cars parked on top of that slab.  That is 1000 lb distributed on each tire patch.  My car will be about 1,800 lbs. when finished.  1,000 lb distributed on each of those base plates doesn't concern me.

Last edited by Todd M

i was in the commercial construction supply business for years, back then there was a product to level uneven concrete floors...set up the correct perimeter outside walls, pour this concrete/epoxy slurry in and like water it seeks it own level,might have to screed it to be perfect..other than that jackhammer the slab and start over..PITA

barncobob posted:

i was in the commercial construction supply business for years, back then there was a product to level uneven concrete floors...set up the correct perimeter outside walls, pour this concrete/epoxy slurry in and like water it seeks it own level,might have to screed it to be perfect..other than that jackhammer the slab and start over..PITA

Comes in 5 pound bags at Home Depot/Lowe's (leveling compound)

Wet (soak) the surface and sprinkle it on.  Self levels in a about 2 hours.

Been awhile since I have posted progress, because the progress hasn't been on the car, but rather the environment in which to work on the car.  In order to install the lift, I had to move a cabinet.cabinet-cutout

That column is now located where the cabinet was.  It was one of six cabinets in a row on one side wall of the garage.  Had to drill a hole in the top shelf for the column to raise through.

new-cabinet-location

This is the new location for the cabinet, complete with a drawing that my daughter drew many years ago taped to the cabinet door.  Just to the left of the cabinet, you can see the shelves that I had to build to put stuff that was in the way of the new car lift.

new-shevles 

This is another view of the newly built shelves.  The drywall was also in the way of the car lift.  Now it is just in the way of the shelf access.

In figuring out the location for the lift, one of the most important factors was space.  The lift needed to take up as little space as possible so another car can be parked in the garage besides just the 356 coupe, which will be up on the lift.  So I installed the columns with as little space as possible between them, but enough to get the coupe into.  I was hoping that the arms would fit underneath the coupe with the narrow space, but they didn't.  Hope is not the best strategy, so I probably should have test fitted the space with the car in place before I started drilling holes.

new-holes

Those are the new holes in the new location.  When I drilled the first set of holes, I used a homemade plywood template, because the diameter of the anchor sleeves is 7/8", but the diameter of the base plate holes is 1 inch, so if I used the baseplate as my template, the holes would be all over the place and rounded out from the hammer drill.  It turns out the template was not an improvement over the baseplate, so with the new holes I tried something different.

brass-bushing

I put a brass bushing with a 1" diameter OD and a 7/8" ID in the baseplate and started drilling.

bushing

And after drilling each hole I put a 7/8" dowel through the bushing and through the new hole in the concrete.  I am MUCH happier with the new set of holes.

Now, I have to wait for the new anchors to arrive.  When I unbolted the column, I noticed that the anchor sleeves were not installed the way they are supposed to be; down a few eighths from the top and tight.  I installed them per the directions, and don't feel like taking a chance on one or two correctly installed anchors holding the entire weight, so I ordered some epoxy anchors, but they will take a week or so to arrive.

Attachments

Images (6)
  • cabinet-cutout
  • new-cabinet-location
  • new-shevles
  • new-holes
  • brass-bushing
  • bushing
Last edited by Todd M

From the back of the base to the back of the other base, like the instructions show, they were 105", the minimum recommended by Dannmar.  The new holes will measure back to back at 123".  I had to go at least 18" to clear my garage door opener. Previously it just barely cleared on the right side.  Now, it is measured to clear on the left side of the opener.  Yeah, I measured instead of hoped.

SUCCESS!  Maybe.

 

All-Jacked-Up

 

It is in the air.

Got done with the installation yesterday, but the new lift only lifts after it has not lifted for a few, (maybe 6), hours or so.  During my tests without the car on the lift, it only raised 11 inches on the first try, so I bled the cylinders, and it would only lift about 1/2 inch.  I contacted Dannmar and Bruce, ( @aircooled&nbsp, after the trying it the next day when it only lifted about 16 inches, (after letting the arms down, they would only raise a 1/2" again), and was told the seals would need some full cycles to operate properly.  Ok.  I don't like that answer, but so be it.  I had to widen the space between the posts in order to fit the arms to the jacking points of the car, so I drilled some new holes, and used some epoxy anchors because two of the anchors on the left base were not expanding correctly in the hole, which I did not find out until I had unbolted the base.  Hmmm.

The epoxy anchors set up overnight, and the left column was reinstalled, and the right column was reinstalled without the supplemental plate I was using to bring the two bases to the same elevation.  All five wedge anchors on the right post base were tight and correct.  Bled the cylinders again, and it raised to the 42 inch max, but when I let it down and tried it with the car, it would only raise a 1/2" again.  That was yesterday.  So, it sat overnight, and I tried it again this morning, and BOOM; all 42 inches with the car on it.  So far, it will only raise to it's maximum height once per day.  Guess I will continue to cycle it a few more times before contacting Dannmar.

The right column raises at about 1/2" higher than than the left side, so that is why I took the supplemental base out, but it occurred to me that at max height the right side is now lower than the left side by 5/8".  Not sure whether to leave it like it is, or reinstall the supplemental base plate next time I unbolt the base from the floor.

If anybody is thinking about purchasing one of these lifts, there are a few things you should know.  The steps for the installation are simple enough, but the actual installation is more complicated.  It is not foolproof and if you read the reviews you will see that their quality control has a lot to be desired.  The instructions suck.  They are terrible.  There are many steps that are just plain not written about.  If you have some experience wrenching, you will probably figure out the stuff that is missing, but maybe not.  It can be frustrating.  The part specs are not correct and the instructions are not up to date with the product as currently sold and shipped.  The fastener sizes are different than what is called out, and it can make a difference depending upon each specific installation.  If you have not worked with concrete anchors, install the bases with the more expensive epoxy anchors.  If the wedge anchors are not expanding properly the bolt will still tighten when the top of the wedge post meets the bottom of the baseplate, but the wedge has not actually tightened in the hole, and the only way to know if the wedge anchor has expanded properly is to remove the column and visually inspect for the correct installation.  Personally, if I was Dannmar, I would only sell the lift with the epoxy anchors.  With all the things that can go wrong with installation and initial use, Dannmar's fix seems to rely on their customer service department rather than complete and detailed instructions and better quality control.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • All-Jacked-Up
Last edited by Todd M

While I can understand that the hydraulic piston seals may be dry from sitting on a shelf for a while, they should re-activate with 3 - 4 passes up to 42", and not spread over several days.  All of the Bend-Pak lifts we built took right off and lifted fine.  Our big issue was leaking air lines to the safety latches - We'd push the button to release them and they wouldn't move until we reworked the line couplers.

Once you get the car up on the lift at 42" and if you don't set the safety latches to hold it there, will it creep back down or hold at altitude?

BTW, the Bend-Pak instructions were not the best thing in the world, either, but they weren't THAT bad.....

Last edited by Gordon Nichols
Gordon Nichols posted:

All of the Bend-Pak lifts we built took right off and lifted fine.  Our big issue was leaking air lines to the safety latches - We'd push the button to release them and they wouldn't move until we reworked the line couplers.

Once you get the car up on the lift at 42" and if you don't set the safety latches to hold it there, will it creep back down or hold at altitude?

So far the height is stable.  The safety latches can't really not be set because they are automatic.  You can defeat them by moving the lowering lever, but the lift is an inch or so above the last catch and it is staying there.  I will see in the next few days if it becomes more consistent.

Anybody have any experience with this brand, (Assault), of radiators?  Also, when figuring out which side I need my inlet and outlet on the radiator, it looks to me like the thermostat is on the intake to the engine?  Isn't that kinda backwards?  I seem to remember coolant exiting the engine, going through the thermostat, and then into the radiator.

71kKnr1CGsL._SL1000_

 

https://www.amazon.com/Assault...TWD1F2N2X7SF8VQFJ86Q

Or does anybody see a problem with a 1.5 inch inlet and a 1.75 inch outlet?  I am fairly sure that the Griffin radiator that folks use has a 1.25 inlet and 1.5 outlet.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • 71kKnr1CGsL._SL1000_
Last edited by Todd M

Carey of Special Edition has the radiators they use custom made to their specs. The Suby converted Speedsters use a slightly larger one than their 550 Spyder does.  They had to use the smaller Spyder radiator on the suby conversion they did on my Fiberfab Speedster because of the lack of space up front. The radiator works perfectly and keeps the temps at 190 all day long in 95 degree plus heat driving on highways with reflected heat upwards of 110-120 degrees.  I believe the Suby coolant flow direction  is reverse from what most call normal.

Speedster Conversion 17

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Speedster Conversion 17

The Suby thermostat is on the bottom of the engine and requires the heater hoses be routed either through a heater core or looped together in order to work as designed. The heater core gets hot coolant from the top of the engine and dumps it on the thermostat, which tells it when to open & let in new cool water. It's the opposite of my old Chebby.

Advantage: you get faster warmup, both for the engine and the passengers.

Disadvantage: it's needlessly complicated for our application. 

On Bridget I used a cheap aftermarket 2-core rad for a Honda Civic/del Sol. Inlet and outlet are (I believe) 1.25 inches, and I used step fittings to hook them to my 1.5 inch pipes. Works very well, as far as that goes, and fits the larger of the original two Legacy fans perfectly behind the stock MG TD grill. Not a practical form factor for the Speedster or Spyder, however.

Best would be 1.5 on both inlet and outlet.

edsnova posted:

The Suby thermostat is on the bottom of the engine and requires the heater hoses be routed either through a heater core or looped together in order to work as designed. The heater core gets hot coolant from the top of the engine and dumps it on the thermostat, which tells it when to open & let in new cool water. It's the opposite of my old Chebby.

Advantage: you get faster warmup, both for the engine and the passengers.

Disadvantage: it's needlessly complicated for our application. 

On Bridget I used a cheap aftermarket 2-core rad for a Honda Civic/del Sol. Inlet and outlet are (I believe) 1.25 inches, and I used step fittings to hook them to my 1.5 inch pipes. Works very well, as far as that goes, and fits the larger of the original two Legacy fans perfectly behind the stock MG TD grill. Not a practical form factor for the Speedster or Spyder, however.

Best would be 1.5 on both inlet and outlet.

Before I wrote this post on the radiator, I did a little bit of poking around and saw diagrams of what you are talking about.  I thought the drawings were nuts.  Thanks for the explanation, and it still seems basackwards.

Last edited by Todd M
MusbJim posted:

Because of my laissez-faire, laid back attitude, people often thought I was apathetic.

I had a T-shirt printed up with "People say I'm apathetic...but I don't care." 

Say there, Guapo, you musta had that T-shirt printed so you could wear it at your in-laws' summer BBQ without offending them, eh? I, on the other hand, having no such familial constraints had mine printed to read "...but I don't give a ****!"  

By the way: Our Forum's Language Censor immediately changed what I had typed into "****!", but you surely understand what my shirt really says...and it's not "damn!" 

 

Last edited by Napa Paul

So much gets in the way of what one wants to do, all the things one has to do.

I wanna finish installing a 220V outlet in my garage, so I can plug in the mig welder that my friend loaned me, so that I get to welding on my replica.  But, there are the sprinklers that need to be fixed, and the left side door window on the Fiat that needs to be fixed, and the stairs that have to be finished, and ... , you get the picture.

This evening, after I installed the new window regulator in the Fiat, the last plastic pin in the door panel won't lock in to the plastic grommet on the door.  I don't know how to figure out what is wrong without taking the panel off again.  There are about 10 or 12 pins and it seems that only one won't grab.  The palm of my hand is bruised from beating on the plastic door panel.  Any suggestions?  You think maybe the grommet is busted?  Or maybe even not there?  I didn't find any when I was cleaning up broken parts from the bottom of the door.

I can't take a photo of behind the panel to show the pin and grommet, so here is a photo of the broken regulator just for fun.

window-regulator

Attachments

Images (1)
  • window-regulator

Subarugears makes a Subaru engine to Type 1 engine mount, and it bolts to the Type 1 frame horns.  Since my project does not have a Type 1 pan, hence no frame horns, the Subamount is not a bolt on.  Those of you who have a Subaru engine, and a manufactured frame rather than a Type 1 pan, how is your engine mounted to the frame?  I would rather copy someone else than re-invent the wheel.

Type 1 Subamount kit installed

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Type 1 Subamount kit installed

Carey of Special Edition builds Suby powered tube framed cars, you may want to ask one of the Suby powered back Speedster owners how their engine is supported. My pan based Suby conversion doesn't use the suby motor mounts. My engine is supported by the transaxle via the frame horns with a heavy duty engine cradle and kafer bar setup. It works great and appears to very secure. I have about 3000 miles on the car since the car was converted by Special edition last year. The last pic is a beck speedster showing how their tube frame holds the type 1 transaxle.

speedster conversion 98Speedster Conversion 36speedster conversion 121

Attachments

Images (3)
  • Speedster Conversion 36
  • speedster conversion 98
  • speedster conversion 121

In my case it wouldn't have given the engine any more support by having the stock Suby mounts attached to the cradle because it all is supported by the frame horns and transaxle regardless. My setup is rock solid and the engine doesn't move or rock even in hard acceleration. The extra support comes with the Kafer bar setup connecting in the shock towers.In this instance more isn't always better if it doesn't help, and it saves the weight of the large mounts and the extra size of the cradle. Carey  and mike gave my setup a lot of thought. I think they hit a home run.

Todd M posted:
IaM-Ray posted:

I have an IM and IM makes a full cradle that bolts to their frame and they use stock subie mounts. 

Exactly.  Does anybody have any photos of the cradle that either Beck or IM use, using the Subaru mounts? 

There's another option which may work for you, Todd. Small Car Performance up in Tacoma, Wa makes conversion parts which are very easy to use. I bought the two "bars" in the first picture. They are pointed at the car in the correct orientation. The front end gets bolted to a type 1 transmission mount, the center gets bolted directly to the Soob engine and the aft end got bolted to a transverse bracket that I fabbed up and soft mounted to the rear fore and aft frame rails in the engine compartment. It worked quite well for many miles. Sorry I don't have pics of the front attach points. 

Attachments

Images (2)
  • Soob Small Car mouint brackets 001
  • Rear mount plate 001

My engine does not have a real mount bar. It is totally supported by the frame horns and the kafer bar setup that triangulates the engine cradle, frame horns and the upper shock mounts. I have a special solid front transaxle mount that Rancho sells. I have a rhino transaxle case that is much stronger than a stock type 1 transaxle. The setup is as solid as a rock. Not wheel hop no engine shimmy no torque twist.

speedster conversion 97 Rancho Pro-Suby Transaxle

Attachments

Images (4)
  • speedster conversion 97 Rancho Pro-Suby Transaxle
  • speedster conversion 90
  • Speedster Conversion165
  • Speedster Conversion 202
Last edited by Jimmy V.
Jimmy V. posted:

My engine does not have a real mount bar. It is totally supported by the frame horns and the kafer bar setup that triangulates the engine cradle, frame horns and the upper shock mounts. I have a special solid front transaxle mount that Rancho sells. I have a rhino transaxle case that is much stronger than a stock type 1 transaxle. The setup is as solid as a rock. Not wheel hop no engine shimmy no torque twist.

speedster conversion 97 Rancho Pro-Suby Transaxle

Jimmy's setup from Beck is excellent. I just did mine the way I did because I didn't know any better. It works fine though. 

David Stroud Ottawa Canada IM Roadster posted:
Todd M posted:

@David Stroud IM Roadster D - I am sure it is great, ... if you have frame horns.

@Todd M   You don't need frame horns but you do need a Type 1 VW transaxle.....

Unless I am completely confused, and that happens a lot, Jimmy V's mounting system consists of a transaxle support and an engine/transaxle support that bolts to the frame horns.  His set-up negates the necessity of the Subaru mounts.

Looking around, I found this crossmember that uses the Subaru mounts.  It is made for a VW Type 2, but with some narrowing, I think I can use it.  Anybody familiar with this mounting system from Busaru?

img_1506

Attachments

Images (1)
  • img_1506
WOLFGANG posted:

But if you don't have the frame horns - then there are no mounting points for the rear of any T1 transaxle -  so the cradle for the Subaru engine will also have to support the rear of the transaxle.  Since yours is a custom frame - you will also need the front trans mount welded in (see center of picture).  

Related image

Absolutely correct.  The mount for the transaxle nose is already installed, but as of yet, there is no support for the rear of the transaxle, where it bolts to the adapter/flywheel.  If the nose of the transaxle is supported and the Subaru engine is supported at it's mounts, will it be necessary/advisable to support the rear of the transaxle also?  IIRC, the entire weight of a Type 1 engine, and the 356 engine, hangs on the 4 bolts to the transaxle bell housing, so it would seem that supporting the engine and transaxle may be a bit more balanced and stable using the Subaru mounts rather that rear transaxle mount and frame horns?  Any opinions?

Last edited by Todd M

Todd, you're doing just fine.  Just keep on doin what'cher doin - You don't need that other stuff.  

Using a nosecone mount for the VW transaxle (to keep the nose in place under acceleration/deceleration) and then the normal Subaru engine mount points will provide, essentially, a multi-point cradle system that'll be better than the original VW system which had only the four engine-to-transaxle bolts with the entire engine weight hanging off the back.

You'll be supporting the engine which, in turn supports the rear of the transaxle, too and provides a lot better mechanical balance.    This is the opposite of the VW system that supported the transaxle exclusively (except for some buses) and should provide better support.

gn

I am sick and tired of paying Volvo a thousand bucks, for something I can do for $150, if I knew what was wrong.  So, I am going to throw away my stubbornness and obstinance and get an OBD2 scanner or reader or whatever they are called.  All I know about them is that you plug them in somewhere in the car.

Which one do I get?  I don't want to get the cheapest, because I don't have the best experience with the cheapest of anything.  I don't want to buy the most expensive, because my guess is that I don't need whatever the most expensive one does.  Specifically, which OBD2 scanner is a good value for the money.  I would prefer getting one that does not need my phone to display, because my phone is an iPhone4 and it would appear to be out of date for any recent tech uses.

images

Attachments

Images (1)
  • images

I got one from Advance Auto about 10 years ago for maybe $30 and it works fine. There is a port up under the dashboard, usually. Buy one and use it; even if you never turn a wrench on your car it'll give you info you can use.

The OBD reader + a Google search has got me very close to a fix for my truck every time except last time, when a "P302" (misfire on cylinder 2) code lit and could not be remedied by any combination of changes to spark or fuel. 

Also, the truck is not missing on any cylinders.

But it is 18 years and 225,000 miles old, so at this late date I'm (it's?) taking a mulligan. 

@edsnova - Your truck is 18 years old and it has an OBD port?  I don't think I even knew that OBD2 existed back then.

@MikeB - Until your post, I did not know there were transmission codes as well.  It turns out there are ABS codes, SRS codes, (I had to look that one up), and FixAssist.  So after extensive research, (about 2 minutes because it is one of those information bombardment things), I have decided on either the Harbor Freight, https://www.harborfreight.com/...fixassist-63806.html , or Innova, https://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-...hicles/dp/B008RHBJ8K .  The FixAssist looks to be right up my alley so that I do not have to learn any new technology.

BTW, Harbor Freight is selling grinders for $11.99.

Last edited by Todd M

One of the nice things about modern replicas!   Go with a modern drive train and get the on-board diagnostics!

 

A few years ago, I bought a wireless OBDLink gadet from ScanTool that links up to your smart phone.  I think I paid $80 for it, but you can get ones now for $20 - $50 that may even be better. Gotta love the exponential growth of technology!

Todd:  If I caught you before you head to Harbor Freight, my motorhead son recently bought one of these and loves it.  He's been raving about it to all his motorhead friends:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07J...j5BIJLowW91KoZ2eXzkc

Now, If only my Speedster had an OBD II port......   

BTW, OBD ports have been around since the later 1980's or so, and everyone pretty much went 100% on them in the mid-1990's.  When I was going through my RMV stuff I found that all of that fancy stuff, like trans codes, airbag codes and such, all came about after about 2010 and they're adding more from time to time.  If an internal device (transmission, say) can communicate with the on-board CAN bus you can report pretty much anything you want to the OBD port - all you need is something to read it with or communicate with it.

Last edited by Gordon Nichols
Todd M posted:

@edsnova - Your truck is 18 years old and it has an OBD port?  I don't think I even knew that OBD2 existed back then.

@MikeB - Until your post, I did not know there were transmission codes as well.  It turns out there are ABS codes, SRS codes, (I had to look that one up), and FixAssist.  So after extensive research, (about 2 minutes because it is one of those information bombardment things), I have decided on either the Harbor Freight, https://www.harborfreight.com/...fixassist-63806.html , or Innova, https://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-...hicles/dp/B008RHBJ8K .  The FixAssist looks to be right up my alley so that I do not have to learn any new technology.

BTW, Harbor Freight is selling grinders for $11.99.

Gordon!!

Last edited by Robert M

Before this project, I had never worked with metal in terms of modifying it.  I had maybe drilled a couple holes in sheet metal, but all metal working looked kinda like wizardry to me.  Now, I am cutting a grinding.  I am cutting off brackets that would be in the way of my radiator, and grinding down the remnants of the brackets.  So far I have discovered three type of wheels for my grinder; cut-off wheels, grinding wheel, and flap disc.  The cut-off wheel and the flap disc always make sparks and always make an obvious cut.  The grinding wheel sometimes makes sparks and I know it is cutting, but sometimes it doesn't make sparks, and I don't know if it is cutting.  Is the grinding wheel alway suppose to make sparks like the other two wheels?

grinding-bracketsgrinding

And when I grind on stainless steel, do I need to primer it?

Attachments

Images (2)
  • grinding-brackets
  • grinding

Pictured below is a radiator for a 2001 Subaru Legacy, which gave up it's engine for my car.  The stock radiator is 27" x 13", or 366 sq. In. and 5/8" thick which leads me to conclude that it is only one row.  I am limited in width to 24", and if I kept at least the same sq. in., the height would have be at least 15".  Just about any aftermarket aluminum radiator I use will be two rows, so does having a 2nd row double the amount of cooling area?  REP2331

Why so many questions today?  Because I am making the 2nd half of the handrail for the stair project, and there is a lot of time letting the slats cool and dry in their form, and I can only do one slat at a time, which leaves a lot of time to work on the car.  And every time I start working on the car, I have questions.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • REP2331

The cut-off wheel and the flap disc always make sparks and always make an obvious cut.  The grinding wheel sometimes makes sparks and I know it is cutting, but sometimes it doesn't make sparks, and I don't know if it is cutting.  Is the grinding wheel alway suppose to make sparks like the other two wheels?”

The other two wheels are probably less aggressive abrasive, meaning that they take off less material in smaller particles.  Because the particles are smaller, they heat up faster and become incandescent - they light up - as sparks.

If the grinding wheel is more aggressive it will remove larger particles that heat up slower and may not  reach incandescent temperature, so they don’t light up.

OTOH, if you’re trying to grind on the side of the wheel, sometimes it doesn’t take off much material so.......No sparks.

That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.

Stainless steel is rarely painted, but the purpose of a paint primer is to provide adhesion between the metal and the color paint, so, yes - roughing stainless steel with rough sandpaper and using a primer before color painting will make the paint stick better.

On the radiator.......  I am an aircooled kinda guy.  Maybe you could put that to someone much more experienced in it, like Carey Hines?  @chines1

Last edited by Gordon Nichols

Radiators for our replicas are like many automotive subjects that sound simple, but can be very detailed on many levels.  Anyone really interested needs to do lots of research online, as materials and technology have advanced in the last few years.

Some generalities apply: 1) Measure the space available (length x width) and fill it completely.  Many rad sites allow you to shop by size, as well as car model.  Modern aluminum rads are built with a thinner profile to allow of easier air flow through the tubes, a critical facet of heat dissipation.  Dual pass rads are becoming standard, and should work well with any of our applications; 2) 1.5" inlet and outlet rad tubes help with increasing flow, another critical aspect of heat dissipation; 3) electric fans are essential, along with a properly-fitted shroud that insures that all air is forced through the rad,  4) ideally, you place the rad where the pressure is high on the front side, low on the back side, 5) puller fans, mounted on the back side of the rad, generally move more air since they don't block the incoming air flow, and 6) data provided by fan companies regarding air volume moved is mostly nonsense, with Spal being an exception.  Higher amperage draw of the fan motor means more air moved.  Pay extra to get a weatherproof, high flow fan motor.

Be aware that Subaru engineers computed the radiator profile (l x w), based on full air flow through a non-restrictive grill at a perpendicular angle to the rad fins, the common placement for stock Subis.  No way can we achieve that ideal setup in our replicas.  The Vanagon guys estimate that you need 50% more square inches in a VW van/Subi swap, due solely to rad placement, i.e., air flow is restricted and not perpendicular.

The Aussies and Brits have more online research than Americans for some reason.  Remote rads are also popular with some of the 4x4 guys, who have posted real world test results.  Best of luck in your research.

Last edited by Jim Kelly
Todd M posted:

@edsnova - Your truck is 18 years old and it has an OBD port?  I don't think I even knew that OBD2 existed back then.

@MikeB - Until your post, I did not know there were transmission codes as well.  It turns out there are ABS codes, SRS codes, (I had to look that one up), and FixAssist.  So after extensive research, (about 2 minutes because it is one of those information bombardment things), I have decided on either the Harbor Freight, https://www.harborfreight.com/...fixassist-63806.html , or Innova, https://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-...hicles/dp/B008RHBJ8K .  The FixAssist looks to be right up my alley so that I do not have to learn any new technology.

BTW, Harbor Freight is selling grinders for $11.99.

Todd: Not only does my 2002 truck have an OBD port, so does my MG TD.

In fact, I bought the tool to diagnose the 1995 Subaru Legacy engine I was dropping into it. Works a treat!

Now, on radiators: More square inches is better, and there is an old hotrodder's formula for determining the needed area of a radiator for a given sized engine with X horsepower: one square inch per horsepower. It's too rough an estimate to work for us but engineers have stepped in to make it too complex...(links to pdf).

Bottom line: you don't need that huge Suby rad to work in your Speedster. I know this because, in my MG, I used an aftermarket two-core Honda Civic radiator I picked up on Ebay for like $50. It fits neatly behind the TD's grill and cools the 140 hp 2.2 Suby fine. The whole key is using a good fan (the larger of the stock Legacy fans fits over it perfectly) and getting the hot air out from under the car (I made a stainless shroud to duct it all down and out the wheel wells). 

So a 14.5 x 16.5-inch radiator made to cool a 1.5 liter engine is happily cooling an engine nearly one-third larger. AND YOU CAN TOO!

Rule of thumb #2: A two-row rad will not cool twice as well as a one-row. It's maybe 30-40 percent better. A three-row rad is maybe 10-20 percent better than a two-row. At four rows you're kinda spinning your wheels, since the first three passes heated the air going through the rad enough that the forth pass isn't getting much more help. 

So use a two-row. The Civic rad is the wrong shape but there are older Saab rads that give more area in a wide/short configuration. I believe David Stroud used one like this.

It's about 14 x 20 inches, as I recall.

Find a place under the nose to mount one, canted down about 50-60 degrees and CAD-out a simple ductworks to get air out from behind it. 

 

 

Last edited by edsnova
Gordon Nichols posted:

Todd,  I had to go to a really small battery after I put my gas heater in the front well of the Frunk and took half of the available room for that.  I went with an Odyssey PC680 (same battery that Beck uses, I believe) which is about 1/2 the size of what I had before.  Been cranking great for 3 years, now.

Thanks.  7.2 x 3.1 x 7.5 inches is looking good.

When Special Edition converted my Fiberfab Speedster Carey used the same radiator they have custom made for their Suby Spyder builds. My 2.5 L engine runs cool in 100 deg. temps driving in stop and go traffic. They mounted the radiator in my frunk in the original battery area. The radiator sits perpendicular to the ground and is ducted with a small scoop under the front bumper. They have a puller fan that comes on at 180 deg. coolant temps. It comes on only when sitting in hot temps. never when the car is moving. Not exactly sure of the radiator measurements but is a tad smaller than the one they use in they Beck speedster builds because they have more room. They relocated my battery to the drivers side rear wheel well. They built a neat little box for a small size high amp ATV battery to sit. It cranks fine and hasn't been any trouble. They have lots of experience from many years of finding what works best with real world feedback.Speedster Conversion 24Speedster Conversion 17Speedster Conversion 51Speedster Conversion 32Speedster Conversion 147

Speedster Conversion 145Speedster Conversion 146

Attachments

Images (7)
  • Speedster Conversion 145
  • Speedster Conversion 147
  • Speedster Conversion 51
  • Speedster Conversion 32
  • Speedster Conversion 24
  • Speedster Conversion 17
  • Speedster Conversion 146
Last edited by Jimmy V.

I have decided to cut out an "obstruction" in the frame of my frunk.  I have never cut on or modified a frame before.  I have never even repaired a frame before, and it makes me nervous as heck to be cutting into steel based only on my logic; without any engineering expertise.  So I am asking, is there any reason I should not cut out the "obstruction"?

Below is a drawing of part of the frame of my frunk.  The red is 2" x 2.75" rectangular steel tube.  The blue is a 1 1/2" diameter round steel tube.  The tube had some brackets on it, which I assume were for mounting some portion of the electric power system the car was designed to have.  The blue tube is in the way of my radiator placement and in my mind, the blue tube is unnecessary , and I am going to cut it out.  Anyone think that is a mistake?

Not the blue tube in the upper right of the drawing, but rather the blue tube in the middle of the drawing.  Yeah, I know that last sentence is not a grammatically correct sentence, but I think Sister Maria Joseph would give me a pass, since it gets the point across.

The inside of the red rectangular frame is approx. 23" x 24".

Frame Obstruction

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Frame Obstruction
Last edited by Todd M

What fits into those neat little semi-circular depressions on the right?

I'm having trouble visualizing where that box frame portion goes so help me out, here before I commit to whacking out the blue tube, which I would also be inclined to do, but not until I understand what else is going on around that frame piece.  I don't have anything like that on a CMC.  What we have is a hokey-A$$ed bracket bolted to the top of the front beam and holding up the entire front third of the car.  That bracket sits in front of the gas tank and is never in the way of nuthin'.  

While the corner gussets are always a good, rigid idea, you would have to be careful about interference with the gas tank.  Apart from that, get out your angle grinder and start cutting!

full frunk

Those semi-circular depressions are where the frame was cut and rewelded to make room for the rack and pinion, which is the cyan cylinder in the drawing.  For perspective, the wheels centerline is about 6 inches in front of the rack and pinion, and a few inches higher.  

full frunk 2

The lavender lines are the fiberglass frunk.  The big cyan trapezoid in front, outlined in lavender is part of the fiberglass frunk, most likely where the battery will be located.   The black rectangle towards the bottom center is the radiator, shroud, and fan.  The irregular shaped red lined thing on the top is the gas tank.  The upper right rectangle outline in faint green is the space with the brake and clutch master cylinders and the apportioning valve.  The uppermost blue cylinder is another obstruction, which I am thinking of replacing with two similar sized steel tubes, one below the present tube, and one between the front A-pillars, and a removable strut bar on the top of the A-pillars.  I am calling the present blue steel tube an obstruction, because if I move it, the gas tank can be enlarged.  The A-pillar on driver's left is unfinished, because I am not sure if I need to draw it, and may even delete its from the drawing, cuz it gets in the way.

full frunk3

@Gordon Nichols - Thanks for asking.  Having to explain it and write it out makes it more clear to me.

Attachments

Images (3)
  • full frunk
  • full frunk 2
  • full frunk3
Last edited by Todd M
WOLFGANG posted:

So is the radiator laying flat or is it at some angle?  I'd think you'd want the gas tank to be mounted as low as feasible to improve handling by lowering center of gravity )gas weighs about 8 # per gallon so about 100 #.

Yes, in the side view the radiator assembly is that cyan colored rectangle lying on top of the blue circle.  If I cut out the blue circle, (obstruction), I can lower the radiator a couple more inches, getting it closer to the direct airflow.  Right now, the future radiator is angled up about 15 degrees.

I could move the radiator to the space just above the transaxle.  I don't have a rear seat there like most 356s, but if I don't put the radiator there, I will probably be doing some cutting and welding and fiberglass work to enlarge the space behind the front seats for luggage.  Or, I could put the gas tank back there, but I kinda like the idea of putting the weight up front since so much of the weight in a 356 is out back.

As currently drawn, the gas tank is 15 gallons.  If I cut out the uppermost blue circle, (obstruction), I can enlarge the lower portion of the gas tank and lower the top.  I doubt that I need more than 15 gallons.

So many options, it is kind of overwhelming.

Just writing that helped me to make the decision to cut out the offending steel tube and enlarge the lower portion of the gas tank.  Plus I like my potential relocation of the offending frame member.

Last edited by Todd M

During mock-up of the engine mount crossmember, it turned out that the crossmember did not just bolt on.  Yeah, I know.  It never does, but I knew I was going to have to modify the ends to fit my coupe, but what I did not foresee was the support not fitting the stock Subaru engine mount.  There is a guide pin in the stock mount, that does not show in the Busaru crossmember installation video, https://youtu.be/C1fgZb9EmK4 .  See photos.

CrossbarLeft-Guide-PinLeft-Support

There is a slot for the engine mount stud, but it is not long enough to allow the guide pin to slip through.  So, here is the question.  Drill a hole in the crossmember support to allow the pin to drop, or cut the pin off the engine mount?  

Attachments

Images (3)
  • Crossbar
  • Left-Guide-Pin
  • Left-Support

Drilling a couple holes went well.  I was nervous to drill into 1/4" steel without a drill press, but the bit catching only broke my wrist a couple of times.

Drilled-support

Now the crossmember has to cut and pasted/welded to fit my frame.

Precut-crossmember

The only reason I even get to work on the car today is that plastic resin glue needs a good 24 hours to set to hold a curve.  In cars, you can never have too much horsepower.  In woodworking, you can never have too many clamps.  Oops, I see a spot near the bottom where I can still fit another clamp.  Gotta go.

clamps

Attachments

Images (3)
  • Drilled-support
  • Precut-crossmember
  • clamps
Todd M posted:
Robert M posted:

A step bit works really well for making holes like that. They make the hole incrementally larger and I’ve never had one grab like a regular bit. 

Can you use a step drill bit on 0.186" thick steel?  Is there a thickness limit on step drill bits?

1) Only if you have a spare afternoon to drill 2 holes, can come at it from both directions, and are OK with wrecking the bit. 

2) Ultimately, the metal can’t be thicker than the lands on the steps, but in order to get the step-bit started in thick metal, a pilot hole the size of the step-bit pilot is a great idea.

All of this presupposes you’ve got a good step-bit— double-fluted Irwin or Lennox— good ones are $50+. Cheap ones will barely drill light ga. sheet metal, let alone 16 ga.+ steel. 

Last edited by Stan Galat

We use ‘em every day. We buy Lennox 1/4- 1-1/8” double fluted, and we drill knockouts in panels with them— so it’s 16 ga (+/-) mild steel. I’ve gone through thicker, but I end up buying a new $80 bit when I do. The bits love 22 ga or thinner, or AL or plastic.

On anything more than about 24 ga, we drill a pilot and come from both ways. A single 3/4” knockout will use up a Milwaukee 18v XC 5a battery turning a Fuel brushless drill motor. It’ll break your wrist if you’re trying to be casual with it.

Step-bits are fabulous tools, but like zip-tyes and tin-tape, they tend to get overused.

Size-tiny to 3/8” we use Cobalt. 5/16- 5/8” or so, I use black oxide. Anything thicker than 16 ga, I’ll almost always use a hole saw, unless it’s drilling a stud or joist, then I’ll use a paddle or auger bit.

It’s super-easy for a tradesman to end up with $1000 in drill bits on his truck.

Really.

Try to remember that the next time a guy is out on your plumbing, HVAC, or wiring. Even at a hundred bucks an hour, nobody is making Lamborghini payments.  

Last edited by Stan Galat

I have all 5 of the Harbor freight nitrided step bits. Smaller set of three, and the larger set of two. I use them all the time on Aluminum and thin steel, up to 3/16". They work really well in fabrication of brackets and such for my Spyder. A gentle hand can chamfer the hole on both sides with the next larger step. Quick and neat.

I'm on my second set in ten years just recently for a total outlay of $40, twice.

But I don't do this for a living like Stan. Mine are occasional use. I've got a 20v Lithium Porter-Cable with a few batteries. Always a fully charged spare on hand, the charger is mounted to the shop wall. And like Stan says, you go through batteries quick when drilling large holes. Anything bigger than an inch, I have the big mandrel and a bunch of Lennox hole-saws. They do get expensive, but are worth it as they last.

Shop supplies, when I do an estimate as to how much it's going to cost me to do a speedster build I pencil in $200 for shop supplies and go through that quickly. My friend had a VW shop in NJ . from th day his son was born he would take on an additional $15  for all larger invoices for " Seals gaskets and hardware..that designation sponsored his kid's education at the University of Alabama .

When I was building pan #2 ,I needed a robust hand drill so I bought a Milwaukie Heavy Duty, 1/2" chuck, corded monster.  I have used it maybe half a dozen times and each time it somehow finds a way for the bit to grab the piece I'm working on and crank my wrist something fierce.  I should learn to always use the added side handle but no, that lesson never seems to sink in.

It has now been banished to the back of the drill draw, buried by other drills and a host of extension cords well piled so that I won't ever reach for that drill first.  Someday it may again see the light of the shop, but not til my wrist feels normal again and even then, only with the side handle firmly attached.

I think it secretly hates me - Or it will now, for being buried in the drill draw.

Sorry for that slip of “Massachusetts Drawl” up above.

”draw” is what you people probably know of as a ‘cabinet drawer’.

The Whalbergs would have no trouble unahstannen it - or Al Gallo too, for that matter.  Dennis Leary, too, even if he is from “Worcester” (pronounced “Wuh-Stah”, for you people ‘from away’).

I’m working on a long video of a week-long biking trip and my brain wasn’t fully engaged (MUSBJIM knows of what I type) and I slipped into the local lingua.  If yah evah visit heah, yah pro’bly won’t unnahstan any of us (unless it’s someone else from away).

My apologies.......  Yah hafta be from heah, I guess.    

engine-to-frame-supportPictured above is a 3/16" thick piece of steel that I need to shape into the drawing below.

Engine to frame support

The curve has a 0.5" diameter.  How do I bend it?  From Youtube, it seems that I can build a small brake, score the steel across it's width about every 1/4", and then bend it one of the sections, move the material in the brake, bend again, move the material, bend, etc.

Does that sound like the best way?  Any suggestions?

Attachments

Images (2)
  • engine-to-frame-support
  • Engine to frame support

There is no way you are bending 3/16" steel on a 1/4" radius in a small homebuilt brake.  How clean of a bend do you need? What I would do is get a piece of 1/2" diameter bar, mill it to a half round, them mill out the inside radius.  Weld that to the end of your flat stock.  Voila 

 

Another method would be to heat and beat it around a piece of bar stock, but this would not be neat and clean.

Last edited by LI-Rick
Todd M posted:

engine-to-frame-supportPictured above is a 3/16" thick piece of steel that I need to shape into the drawing below.

Engine to frame support

The curve has a 0.5" diameter.  How do I bend it?  From Youtube, it seems that I can build a small brake, score the steel across it's width about every 1/4", and then bend it one of the sections, move the material in the brake, bend again, move the material, bend, etc.

Does that sound like the best way?  Any suggestions?

What do you need it to do?

LI-Rick posted:

There is no way you are bending 3/16" steel on a 1/4" radius in a small homebuilt brake.  How clean of a bend do you need? What I would do is get a piece of 1/2" diameter bar, mill it to a half round, them mill out the inside radius.  Weld that to the end of your flat stock.  Voila 

 

Another method would be to heat and beat it around a piece of bar stock, but this would not be neat and clean.

Oops, I meant 0.5 radius, 1" diameter.  Don't know if that makes any difference.

Gordon Nichols posted:

And what is more important for the end use, the ID of the curved part or the OD?

I’m in the “get a piece of suitable steel pipe, cut it for the function and weld it onto the end” camp.

The ID is the critical side.  I meant to say that and forgot.  Also, I misspoke when I said 0.5" diameter.  I meant 0.5" radius and 1" diameter ID.

Robert M posted:

What do you need it to do?

I need to hang it and weld it to round tubular frame.  The other end will be welded to the end of the crossmember that supports the engine mounts.  Below is a photo showing both the cut crossmember and the fiberglass cutout to the tubular frame from an angle.  2nd photo is the same, but straight on.  And the third is with the steel in it's approx. position.Acrossmember-and-cutoutAcutoutAsteel-against-fender-well

Attachments

Images (3)
  • Acrossmember-and-cutout
  • Acutout
  • Asteel-against-fender-well

I think you are going about this the wrong way.  What I would do, is fish mouth a piece of tubing, about 3” long, weld a 2 bolt flange to the straight end, then weld the fishmouthed end to your existing round frame with the flange hanging down.  Then do the same from your removable crossmember up to another 2 bolt flange.  A couple of 3/8” grade 8 fasteners and I would think it would be a strong and clean installation.

Todd, I don't think you need to wrap your flat piece around that 1" tube as much as you're thinking. I think I would put a slight bend in the flat bar just enough to be able to weld the end of the flat bar to that tube and bring the weld bead around the corners about 1/2". I think that would sufficient.  I know I can bend 3/16" X 3" with a hammer and anvil (or other substantial support) enough to do this.  Done it before.

To attach that plate to the white support in your first pic. I think I would cut a piece of 1/4" steel in an oval shape to fit and weld in (or to) the end of the white support. Before welding it in, I would drill a 9/16" hole in it on center and weld a 1/2"-13 nut centered on that hole. This nut would be on the inside of the white tube and provide threads for a 1/2-13 bolt to fasten the plate to. This way you would have a convenient way to remove the whole support assy. if needed................Bruce

LI-Rick posted:

I think you are going about this the wrong way.  What I would do, is fish mouth a piece of tubing, about 3” long, weld a 2 bolt flange to the straight end, then weld the fishmouthed end to your existing round frame with the flange hanging down.  Then do the same from your removable crossmember up to another 2 bolt flange.  A couple of 3/8” grade 8 fasteners and I would think it would be a strong and clean installation.

That was my first thought/choice, but any vertical tubes would be about 3/8" away from the engine.

aircooled posted:

Todd, I don't think you need to wrap your flat piece around that 1" tube as much as you're thinking. I think I would put a slight bend in the flat bar just enough to be able to weld the end of the flat bar to that tube and bring the weld bead around the corners about 1/2". I think that would sufficient.  I know I can bend 3/16" X 3" with a hammer and anvil (or other substantial support) enough to do this.  Done it before.

To attach that plate to the white support in your first pic. I think I would cut a piece of 1/4" steel in an oval shape to fit and weld in (or to) the end of the white support. Before welding it in, I would drill a 9/16" hole in it on center and weld a 1/2"-13 nut centered on that hole. This nut would be on the inside of the white tube and provide threads for a 1/2-13 bolt to fasten the plate to. This way you would have a convenient way to remove the whole support assy. if needed................Bruce

I was wondering if it would need to completely wrap around, and since I was unsure, I thought best to over do it?

That would definitely make it easy to remove, but one bolt per side?  I was thinking more like 4 bolts per side.

Todd M posted:
LI-Rick posted:

I think you are going about this the wrong way.  What I would do, is fish mouth a piece of tubing, about 3” long, weld a 2 bolt flange to the straight end, then weld the fishmouthed end to your existing round frame with the flange hanging down.  Then do the same from your removable crossmember up to another 2 bolt flange.  A couple of 3/8” grade 8 fasteners and I would think it would be a strong and clean installation.

That was my first thought/choice, but any vertical tubes would be about 3/8" away from the engine.

Seems to me that means you have at least 1/4" of extra room to play with!  lol

Todd, I think 4 bolts are over kill but it's your project so do what you feel comfortable doing. This whole discussion got me thinking about fasteners and I had to look up how strong a grade 8 bolt is. They are strong as hell ! They (the steel) have a tinsel strength of 150,000 lbs, a proof of 120,000lbs and a yield strength of 130.000lbs. The 1" tube you are welding to is probably mild steel which has a tinsel strength of around 78,000lbs.  Common welding rod, like 6013 to 7018 is between 60 and 70,000lbs tinsel strength.

It looks like the weak link is the 1" tube.  In terms of mass strength, the weak link is still the 1" tube.  Any engineer out here can pick my numbers apart by going into nitpick mode but basically mine are in the right place.

Todd, I really like what your doing with your modification. Thinking ahead should always include later removal/access.  Eliminating wheel hop and transaxle shaking is a paramount consideration on these cars. David stroud and I both had a rear "traction bar" mounted at the rear of the engine. His engine was a Suby  and mine was a  VW 2.1 ltr................Bruce

Todd, more is more and your mind works a lot like mine: "Let's over-engineer this thing in our head and make it pretty," followed by "Oh crap what I want to do is beyond my technical skills/really hard to do/violates some principal law of physics." 

Bruce's ideas are close to what I usually end up doing. But his are probably better. My only mod to his concept: drill a couple holes in your plate where it overlays the peak of your tubing, and plug weld through those. I like plug welds. 

Also: where you bend over the plate, radius the edges before welding. Welds like curves better than corners.

Also: kudos on your design-build. This is all actually very fun, right? That's what I keep telling myself!

Todd,

If you REALLY want to do this (and I’m pretty sure you don’t), I wouldn’t cut and shape the piece you plan to use. I’d find a piece of scrap tubing with the right OD, and fill it with sand. I’d get a piece of steel to bend that was the right width, but not cut to length. I’d tack weld the end of that plate to the scrap tube, then heat the piece you want to bend with an oxy/acetylene torch (the cute little MAP gas torches won’t get it hot enough) and wrap it around the tube. I’d over-bend it and cut it off the scrap with an angle grinder. Then I’d cut the piece I wanted.

This would all be if I were in a desert island. I’m not, so I’d probably take my drawing to a shop with real fabrication tools and have my piece laser cut and bent on a CNC press. 

But Bruce is right— just weld the flat stock to the tube. 

So here's a thought late in the game, but I just got back from camping a long ways from internet.

Instead of bending the steel plate you have, leave it flat. Cut two right triangles the length of the side that piece and 1.5" wide at the end. Get out your 1" hole saw and notch the 1.5" end of each triangle to match the 1" tubing. Weld those pieces to the long sides of your original piece creating an open boxed piece to weld onto the 1" diameter tube. This should give you a nice strong piece and lots of weld surface, without having to bend that hefty plate. You could probably use steel that's the same thickness at the wall of the tubing to make the welding easier and the piece lighter without sacrificing strength. The piece is essentially in tension (it's a hanger), and the boxing of it should give you the lateral strength needed. Run one up out of cardboard first, and when you've got a good pattern go to it.  Repeat for the other side. 

Alternatively, notch the 1"tubing to the depth of the piece of plate. Fit in the plate and weld away.

Stan Galat posted:

Todd,

If you REALLY want to do this (and I’m pretty sure you don’t), I wouldn’t cut and shape the piece you plan to use. I’d find a piece of scrap tubing with the right OD, and fill it with sand. I’d get a piece of steel to bend that was the right width, but not cut to length. I’d tack weld the end of that plate to the scrap tube, then heat the piece you want to bend with an oxy/acetylene torch (the cute little MAP gas torches won’t get it hot enough) and wrap it around the tube. I’d over-bend it and cut it off the scrap with an angle grinder. Then I’d cut the piece I wanted.

This would all be if I were in a desert island. I’m not, so I’d probably take my drawing to a shop with real fabrication tools and have my piece laser cut and bent on a CNC press. 

But Bruce is right— just weld the flat stock to the tube. 

@Stan Galat - Tack the tube like this, heat and bend?  That is one of the thoughts I had to make it easier to bend, and the plate in the first photo is purposely long for that reason.

engine to crossmember support 2

Attachments

Images (1)
  • engine to crossmember support 2
JMM (Michael) posted:

So here's a thought late in the game, but I just got back from camping a long ways from internet.

Instead of bending the steel plate you have, leave it flat. Cut two right triangles the length of the side that piece and 1.5" wide at the end. Get out your 1" hole saw and notch the 1.5" end of each triangle to match the 1" tubing. Weld those pieces to the long sides of your original piece creating an open boxed piece to weld onto the 1" diameter tube. This should give you a nice strong piece and lots of weld surface, without having to bend that hefty plate. You could probably use steel that's the same thickness at the wall of the tubing to make the welding easier and the piece lighter without sacrificing strength. The piece is essentially in tension (it's a hanger), and the boxing of it should give you the lateral strength needed. Run one up out of cardboard first, and when you've got a good pattern go to it.  Repeat for the other side. 

Alternatively, notch the 1"tubing to the depth of the piece of plate. Fit in the plate and weld away.

Not too late.  Was practicing welding yesterday, so I have not actually started welding yet.  Still need more practice welding.  I will draw up your idea and see if I have it right.

Welding is SO KOOL!!!

I took a couple of 3 hour classes, one in MIG welding, and the other in TIG.  The weird thing is that I was better at tig than I was at mig.  Go figure.  Just below is a photo of two practice pieces, the bottom is from the tig class, and the top is using a friends borrowed mig welder with flux wire rather than gas.

sheet-metal-welds

The next few photos are of some 3/16" thick steel triangles that I practiced on by welding a 90, and then destroyed with an 8lb. sledge.  You can tell where the crappy portion of the weld is and where the weld failed.  The weld failed where the crappy weld was.  That may seem obvious, but until you experience it, it is just theory.  And it is even more amazing to see the decent weld hold.  Oh yeah, I ground down the outside portion of the weld to see what that was like.

broken-weld-3

broken-weld-4

You can't tell from the photos, but the 90 is gone.  The crappy portion is way closer to 180 than 90, but the better portion is still about 90.  So, I am at the point where I can do a good enough weld, and I can do a crappy weld.  Do I keep practicing until I don't get any more crappy welds?  Or do I start welding on my real stuff?  And if I do a crappy weld on my real stuff, how do I undo it?

 

 

Attachments

Images (2)
  • sheet-metal-welds
  • broken-weld-4
JMM (Michael) posted:

So here's a thought late in the game, but I just got back from camping a long ways from internet.

Instead of bending the steel plate you have, leave it flat. Cut two right triangles the length of the side that piece and 1.5" wide at the end. Get out your 1" hole saw and notch the 1.5" end of each triangle to match the 1" tubing. Weld those pieces to the long sides of your original piece creating an open boxed piece to weld onto the 1" diameter tube. This should give you a nice strong piece and lots of weld surface, without having to bend that hefty plate. You could probably use steel that's the same thickness at the wall of the tubing to make the welding easier and the piece lighter without sacrificing strength. The piece is essentially in tension (it's a hanger), and the boxing of it should give you the lateral strength needed. Run one up out of cardboard first, and when you've got a good pattern go to it.  Repeat for the other side. 

Alternatively, notch the 1"tubing to the depth of the piece of plate. Fit in the plate and weld away.

Like this?  Please excuse the weird tube ends.  It is some flaw in the software, I think.

half circle support

Attachments

Images (1)
  • half circle support

@JMM (Michael) - and everyone else.  My reasoning for "hanging" it on the frame rather than letting it hang on the welds is that I am in unfamiliar territory, so I have to do everything by reason and logic, rather than knowledge and practical education.  I figured having the curved portion draped over the frame tube would have a mechanical advantage and not rely solely on the strength of the welds.  Is that wrong thinking?

Todd, no,  not when you know how to weld ! Ha ha ! Your good weld looks good ! As you found out after the sledge test. Ed is right, and angle grinder makes everything better again ! Flux core welding sucks ! The worst part of a flux weld is trying to re-weld over it. The old flux gets in steel of the new weld and just doesn't look good, ever. Remember also that welding on a bench usually comes out OK but in the real world, welding upside down trying to do a vertical weld that transitions into an overhead weld is not as easy. Especially when you're underneath all of it. Pick your welding tasks in an order that minimizes this.  I think I fried 2 long sleeve shirts, some socks and set one shoe on fire when fabricating some stuff on my speedster. I had even duct taped my sleeve cuffs to keep slag from going up into my armpit............All for the love of this Madness !................Bruce

Todd, 

First call me Michael (or Ishmael...Ishmael works. I could even paint my coupe white, hmmm, but I digress). You're not entirely wrong in your thinking at all, but let's look at what this thing you're making is supposed to do.

This is a secondary mounting for the engine to control torque and thereby reduce wheel hop, etc.  That means that as you accelerate the twisting force will pull down on one side and push UP on the other side. On deceleration that will reverse. Unless you've got Ayrton Senna like chops on your rev matching that could be pretty violent during a bumbled downshift. So, like it or not you are going to be relying on your welds.  As Bruce says, they are starting to look pretty good. Welding stainless is a b**ch, but you're getting the hang of it. Be poison neat with your prep, even off-gassing from your Brylcreem will mess it up. Do as much of it on the bench as you can, then practice in place, dry fit, practice, dry fit, etc. When you're ready, hit it with the juice. You'll suffer through the flux-core stuff, but with a good angle grinder session no one will know how you suffered (unless it leaves scars). Harbor freight has cheap suede welder's sleeves, even cheap welder's shirts sometimes. I recommend investing. Oh, and make sure the fiberglass is well protected, let's not burn her down just yet, eh?

No fear! You got this!

-Michael

@aircooled - @JMM (Michael) -  Bruce, Michael, you both made me smile.  I was wondering if it was gonna get harder once I had to weld in confined spaces and upside down.

So that is what the heck is going on!!!  The mig welder in class had gas, and it didn't have any of this brown and tan build up.  The welds were metal colored.  I have been welding with this flux core welder and I thought it was something I was doing that was causing this discolored buildup.  It might be me, but I feel good blaming it on the welder.  I found out that I can wire brush it off. 

I am wearing a suede welders jacket kind of thing and it mostly works.  The thing I don't understand is how do the hot things get in my jeans.  Not shorts, but jeans, and they are hot, and they stay that way, twice now.  I would have stopped, but I thought they would stop burning quickly.  They didn't.

I thought to use maybe use the angle grinder if I made a bad weld, but I wasn't gonna tell anybody.  I thought it was kinda cheating.

Michael, it is the primary mounting for the engine.  I don't have any rhino horns.  It is a tube frame chassis, no VW pan.

I bought a welder's helmet today.  My friend's helmet has a broken strap that kept falling in my face.

Everything Michael and Bruce said is true. Welding stainless is zero fun. Doing it flux-core is guaranteed to make you look like a monkey. If this is your primary mount, I'd probably make the piece you want out of stainless as well.

You're going to need better equipment-- a good self-darkening hood and an (at minimum) 150a gas-shielded MIG welder with a decent duty-cycle. And yes, do everything you can on a horizontal, and cleanliness is next to godliness.

The dirty brown stuff is the residue from the welding flux.  Yes, it wire brushes off but as you saw with the welder in your class, they probably didn’t use flux core rod/wire and probably did have an argon gas feed to shield the weld.

You’ll need stainless rod or wire to weld stainless, but even then it is more difficult than regular steel and you will need an argon gas mix for stainless (the welding supply place will know the right mix).  I can gas weld (MIG) stainless but it’s tough.  I can TIG weld stainless and the welds come out better than decent, but for me, TIG welding is just like torch welding, which I’m good at - all the approach and movements are the same.

If you weld stainless with a flux core rod/wire, chances are that later on the weld will rust.  I know that’s happened to me more than once.

Hey!  Look at all you’re learning!

ALB posted:

I don't know much about this subject, but 1 thing I have learned from watching more experienced friends- old wet towels work really well to protect things you don't want weld splatter to stick to (or burn!). And that's all I've got...

Maybe you don't know much about this subject, but I did not know about the wet towel method, and I was wondering what to do about splatter.  Best not to get any splatter at all, but probably good foresight to use a wet towel just in case.

Todd,Take a look at a Miller 151 or the newest version of it. Hobart's are made by miller too. You'll never be sorry you bought a real mig welder. I use a combination gas mix of Argon/CO2 for economy. My machine takes a 30 lb spool of .035 wire. It lasts about 2 years for me. I also have a 10 lb spool of stainless wire for stainless welding and another tank of pure Argon gas for this kind of welding. Wet towels work really well. Also you can buy a rattle can of spray to apply to the area around your weld. This makes any splatter not stick to the surfaces around your welds. I use it on the jig when I'm fabricating a batch of license plate holders. Air Gas Co sells all this stuff. Even the welder. Buy Once-Cry Once....You'll never regret spending this money.........Bruce

I like the idea of of using a bus engine mount but cutting, drilling and learning to weld stainless plus buying a mig /tig welder is a big investment in time and money. I used heavy duty trans mounts, a mid mount and kafer bars in my '56 bug with a wrx subi        (215 rear wheel hp), the front trans mount is the weak link. I think that is what I will do in my chinese coupe,yes I have one also. Mine did not come with a steering rack or tie rods, do you know what you have in your car?

wrx speedster posted:

I like the idea of of using a bus engine mount but cutting, drilling and learning to weld stainless plus buying a mig /tig welder is a big investment in time and money. I used heavy duty trans mounts, a mid mount and kafer bars in my '56 bug with a wrx subi        (215 rear wheel hp), the front trans mount is the weak link. I think that is what I will do in my chinese coupe,yes I have one also. Mine did not come with a steering rack or tie rods, do you know what you have in your car?

SO FREAKIN' KOOL!!!   You have one also!!!  I know someone else who has one and like me, he lives in So Cal.  Where do you live?  We have lots to compare.

The rack and pinion is from a Suzuki Samurai/Geo Tracker.  The rest of the front end was custom built by the previous owner, except for the steering column from the box up.  The column was quite a chore, because there are no stock parts that fit.  My steering box is pushed way toward the firewall, so none of the VW columns fit.  I had to cut and fab.

My guess is that you better get used to cutting and drilling and paying someone to weld.  My plan was to pay someone else to do the welding, but the places in time that I need welding will be so sporadic, that I would have to have a mobile welder come out a gazillion times.  My plan was to get to the point where I needed welding on a bunch of stuff and then call, but much, if not all the car has to be built in a serial rather than parallel manner.  My new plan is to buy a used welder on craigslist, and then sell it on craigslist when I am finished.  I do that with tools that I will only use once or twice or tools that take up too much room in my garage.  It is cheaper than renting tools.

I think that using the Subamounts engine mount also requires fabrication and welding for our cars.  I chose the Busaru mount because it got me closer to the frame and it is centered on the Suzuki mounts.  IIRC, the Subamounts does not necessitate cutting the mount, but since it doesn't reach the frame, some type of addition is needed.

Last edited by Todd M

Welding hints: you can weld 3/8" steel to 3/8" steel with a 140 amp Mig welder of you do two things: preheat and dual shielding. Preheat is very effective as all your amperage goes into the bead rather than the surrounding area.

Dual shielding is using flux-core wire and Argon/CO2 mix. I don't know the why buy it helps.

I have a 140 amp Lotos that I got on Amazon for less than 400. It's really nice for the money. Duty cycle is decent too.

I'll get a Tig someday soon I hope. I did really well in class with some light aluminum. Something cathartic about pulsed Tig.

Post Content
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×