Todd, I don't think you need to wrap your flat piece around that 1" tube as much as you're thinking. I think I would put a slight bend in the flat bar just enough to be able to weld the end of the flat bar to that tube and bring the weld bead around the corners about 1/2". I think that would sufficient.  I know I can bend 3/16" X 3" with a hammer and anvil (or other substantial support) enough to do this.  Done it before.

To attach that plate to the white support in your first pic. I think I would cut a piece of 1/4" steel in an oval shape to fit and weld in (or to) the end of the white support. Before welding it in, I would drill a 9/16" hole in it on center and weld a 1/2"-13 nut centered on that hole. This nut would be on the inside of the white tube and provide threads for a 1/2-13 bolt to fasten the plate to. This way you would have a convenient way to remove the whole support assy. if needed................Bruce

LI-Rick posted:

I think you are going about this the wrong way.  What I would do, is fish mouth a piece of tubing, about 3” long, weld a 2 bolt flange to the straight end, then weld the fishmouthed end to your existing round frame with the flange hanging down.  Then do the same from your removable crossmember up to another 2 bolt flange.  A couple of 3/8” grade 8 fasteners and I would think it would be a strong and clean installation.

That was my first thought/choice, but any vertical tubes would be about 3/8" away from the engine.

aircooled posted:

Todd, I don't think you need to wrap your flat piece around that 1" tube as much as you're thinking. I think I would put a slight bend in the flat bar just enough to be able to weld the end of the flat bar to that tube and bring the weld bead around the corners about 1/2". I think that would sufficient.  I know I can bend 3/16" X 3" with a hammer and anvil (or other substantial support) enough to do this.  Done it before.

To attach that plate to the white support in your first pic. I think I would cut a piece of 1/4" steel in an oval shape to fit and weld in (or to) the end of the white support. Before welding it in, I would drill a 9/16" hole in it on center and weld a 1/2"-13 nut centered on that hole. This nut would be on the inside of the white tube and provide threads for a 1/2-13 bolt to fasten the plate to. This way you would have a convenient way to remove the whole support assy. if needed................Bruce

I was wondering if it would need to completely wrap around, and since I was unsure, I thought best to over do it?

That would definitely make it easy to remove, but one bolt per side?  I was thinking more like 4 bolts per side.

Todd M posted:
LI-Rick posted:

I think you are going about this the wrong way.  What I would do, is fish mouth a piece of tubing, about 3” long, weld a 2 bolt flange to the straight end, then weld the fishmouthed end to your existing round frame with the flange hanging down.  Then do the same from your removable crossmember up to another 2 bolt flange.  A couple of 3/8” grade 8 fasteners and I would think it would be a strong and clean installation.

That was my first thought/choice, but any vertical tubes would be about 3/8" away from the engine.

Seems to me that means you have at least 1/4" of extra room to play with!  lol

Get it red hot where you want to bend it - might take a couple of Mapp torches to do it entirely across.  Then using a good size ball-pean hamper tap it around a pipe the side arch you need.  I'd do at least 3 bolts - 4 would be better and ensure they are grade 8.8 or better since you will have a twisting/vibrating heavy motor hung from them.

Todd, I think 4 bolts are over kill but it's your project so do what you feel comfortable doing. This whole discussion got me thinking about fasteners and I had to look up how strong a grade 8 bolt is. They are strong as hell ! They (the steel) have a tinsel strength of 150,000 lbs, a proof of 120,000lbs and a yield strength of 130.000lbs. The 1" tube you are welding to is probably mild steel which has a tinsel strength of around 78,000lbs.  Common welding rod, like 6013 to 7018 is between 60 and 70,000lbs tinsel strength.

It looks like the weak link is the 1" tube.  In terms of mass strength, the weak link is still the 1" tube.  Any engineer out here can pick my numbers apart by going into nitpick mode but basically mine are in the right place.

Todd, I really like what your doing with your modification. Thinking ahead should always include later removal/access.  Eliminating wheel hop and transaxle shaking is a paramount consideration on these cars. David stroud and I both had a rear "traction bar" mounted at the rear of the engine. His engine was a Suby  and mine was a  VW 2.1 ltr................Bruce

Todd, more is more and your mind works a lot like mine: "Let's over-engineer this thing in our head and make it pretty," followed by "Oh crap what I want to do is beyond my technical skills/really hard to do/violates some principal law of physics." 

Bruce's ideas are close to what I usually end up doing. But his are probably better. My only mod to his concept: drill a couple holes in your plate where it overlays the peak of your tubing, and plug weld through those. I like plug welds. 

Also: where you bend over the plate, radius the edges before welding. Welds like curves better than corners.

Also: kudos on your design-build. This is all actually very fun, right? That's what I keep telling myself!

Todd,

If you REALLY want to do this (and I’m pretty sure you don’t), I wouldn’t cut and shape the piece you plan to use. I’d find a piece of scrap tubing with the right OD, and fill it with sand. I’d get a piece of steel to bend that was the right width, but not cut to length. I’d tack weld the end of that plate to the scrap tube, then heat the piece you want to bend with an oxy/acetylene torch (the cute little MAP gas torches won’t get it hot enough) and wrap it around the tube. I’d over-bend it and cut it off the scrap with an angle grinder. Then I’d cut the piece I wanted.

This would all be if I were in a desert island. I’m not, so I’d probably take my drawing to a shop with real fabrication tools and have my piece laser cut and bent on a CNC press. 

But Bruce is right— just weld the flat stock to the tube. 

So here's a thought late in the game, but I just got back from camping a long ways from internet.

Instead of bending the steel plate you have, leave it flat. Cut two right triangles the length of the side that piece and 1.5" wide at the end. Get out your 1" hole saw and notch the 1.5" end of each triangle to match the 1" tubing. Weld those pieces to the long sides of your original piece creating an open boxed piece to weld onto the 1" diameter tube. This should give you a nice strong piece and lots of weld surface, without having to bend that hefty plate. You could probably use steel that's the same thickness at the wall of the tubing to make the welding easier and the piece lighter without sacrificing strength. The piece is essentially in tension (it's a hanger), and the boxing of it should give you the lateral strength needed. Run one up out of cardboard first, and when you've got a good pattern go to it.  Repeat for the other side. 

Alternatively, notch the 1"tubing to the depth of the piece of plate. Fit in the plate and weld away.

Stan Galat posted:

Todd,

If you REALLY want to do this (and I’m pretty sure you don’t), I wouldn’t cut and shape the piece you plan to use. I’d find a piece of scrap tubing with the right OD, and fill it with sand. I’d get a piece of steel to bend that was the right width, but not cut to length. I’d tack weld the end of that plate to the scrap tube, then heat the piece you want to bend with an oxy/acetylene torch (the cute little MAP gas torches won’t get it hot enough) and wrap it around the tube. I’d over-bend it and cut it off the scrap with an angle grinder. Then I’d cut the piece I wanted.

This would all be if I were in a desert island. I’m not, so I’d probably take my drawing to a shop with real fabrication tools and have my piece laser cut and bent on a CNC press. 

But Bruce is right— just weld the flat stock to the tube. 

@Stan Galat - Tack the tube like this, heat and bend?  That is one of the thoughts I had to make it easier to bend, and the plate in the first photo is purposely long for that reason.

engine to crossmember support 2

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JMM (Michael) posted:

So here's a thought late in the game, but I just got back from camping a long ways from internet.

Instead of bending the steel plate you have, leave it flat. Cut two right triangles the length of the side that piece and 1.5" wide at the end. Get out your 1" hole saw and notch the 1.5" end of each triangle to match the 1" tubing. Weld those pieces to the long sides of your original piece creating an open boxed piece to weld onto the 1" diameter tube. This should give you a nice strong piece and lots of weld surface, without having to bend that hefty plate. You could probably use steel that's the same thickness at the wall of the tubing to make the welding easier and the piece lighter without sacrificing strength. The piece is essentially in tension (it's a hanger), and the boxing of it should give you the lateral strength needed. Run one up out of cardboard first, and when you've got a good pattern go to it.  Repeat for the other side. 

Alternatively, notch the 1"tubing to the depth of the piece of plate. Fit in the plate and weld away.

Not too late.  Was practicing welding yesterday, so I have not actually started welding yet.  Still need more practice welding.  I will draw up your idea and see if I have it right.

Welding is SO KOOL!!!

I took a couple of 3 hour classes, one in MIG welding, and the other in TIG.  The weird thing is that I was better at tig than I was at mig.  Go figure.  Just below is a photo of two practice pieces, the bottom is from the tig class, and the top is using a friends borrowed mig welder with flux wire rather than gas.

sheet-metal-welds

The next few photos are of some 3/16" thick steel triangles that I practiced on by welding a 90, and then destroyed with an 8lb. sledge.  You can tell where the crappy portion of the weld is and where the weld failed.  The weld failed where the crappy weld was.  That may seem obvious, but until you experience it, it is just theory.  And it is even more amazing to see the decent weld hold.  Oh yeah, I ground down the outside portion of the weld to see what that was like.

broken-weld-3

broken-weld-4

You can't tell from the photos, but the 90 is gone.  The crappy portion is way closer to 180 than 90, but the better portion is still about 90.  So, I am at the point where I can do a good enough weld, and I can do a crappy weld.  Do I keep practicing until I don't get any more crappy welds?  Or do I start welding on my real stuff?  And if I do a crappy weld on my real stuff, how do I undo it?

 

 

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JMM (Michael) posted:

So here's a thought late in the game, but I just got back from camping a long ways from internet.

Instead of bending the steel plate you have, leave it flat. Cut two right triangles the length of the side that piece and 1.5" wide at the end. Get out your 1" hole saw and notch the 1.5" end of each triangle to match the 1" tubing. Weld those pieces to the long sides of your original piece creating an open boxed piece to weld onto the 1" diameter tube. This should give you a nice strong piece and lots of weld surface, without having to bend that hefty plate. You could probably use steel that's the same thickness at the wall of the tubing to make the welding easier and the piece lighter without sacrificing strength. The piece is essentially in tension (it's a hanger), and the boxing of it should give you the lateral strength needed. Run one up out of cardboard first, and when you've got a good pattern go to it.  Repeat for the other side. 

Alternatively, notch the 1"tubing to the depth of the piece of plate. Fit in the plate and weld away.

Like this?  Please excuse the weird tube ends.  It is some flaw in the software, I think.

half circle support

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@JMM (Michael) - and everyone else.  My reasoning for "hanging" it on the frame rather than letting it hang on the welds is that I am in unfamiliar territory, so I have to do everything by reason and logic, rather than knowledge and practical education.  I figured having the curved portion draped over the frame tube would have a mechanical advantage and not rely solely on the strength of the welds.  Is that wrong thinking?

Todd, no,  not when you know how to weld ! Ha ha ! Your good weld looks good ! As you found out after the sledge test. Ed is right, and angle grinder makes everything better again ! Flux core welding sucks ! The worst part of a flux weld is trying to re-weld over it. The old flux gets in steel of the new weld and just doesn't look good, ever. Remember also that welding on a bench usually comes out OK but in the real world, welding upside down trying to do a vertical weld that transitions into an overhead weld is not as easy. Especially when you're underneath all of it. Pick your welding tasks in an order that minimizes this.  I think I fried 2 long sleeve shirts, some socks and set one shoe on fire when fabricating some stuff on my speedster. I had even duct taped my sleeve cuffs to keep slag from going up into my armpit............All for the love of this Madness !................Bruce

Todd, 

First call me Michael (or Ishmael...Ishmael works. I could even paint my coupe white, hmmm, but I digress). You're not entirely wrong in your thinking at all, but let's look at what this thing you're making is supposed to do.

This is a secondary mounting for the engine to control torque and thereby reduce wheel hop, etc.  That means that as you accelerate the twisting force will pull down on one side and push UP on the other side. On deceleration that will reverse. Unless you've got Ayrton Senna like chops on your rev matching that could be pretty violent during a bumbled downshift. So, like it or not you are going to be relying on your welds.  As Bruce says, they are starting to look pretty good. Welding stainless is a b**ch, but you're getting the hang of it. Be poison neat with your prep, even off-gassing from your Brylcreem will mess it up. Do as much of it on the bench as you can, then practice in place, dry fit, practice, dry fit, etc. When you're ready, hit it with the juice. You'll suffer through the flux-core stuff, but with a good angle grinder session no one will know how you suffered (unless it leaves scars). Harbor freight has cheap suede welder's sleeves, even cheap welder's shirts sometimes. I recommend investing. Oh, and make sure the fiberglass is well protected, let's not burn her down just yet, eh?

No fear! You got this!

-Michael

@aircooled - @JMM (Michael) -  Bruce, Michael, you both made me smile.  I was wondering if it was gonna get harder once I had to weld in confined spaces and upside down.

So that is what the heck is going on!!!  The mig welder in class had gas, and it didn't have any of this brown and tan build up.  The welds were metal colored.  I have been welding with this flux core welder and I thought it was something I was doing that was causing this discolored buildup.  It might be me, but I feel good blaming it on the welder.  I found out that I can wire brush it off. 

I am wearing a suede welders jacket kind of thing and it mostly works.  The thing I don't understand is how do the hot things get in my jeans.  Not shorts, but jeans, and they are hot, and they stay that way, twice now.  I would have stopped, but I thought they would stop burning quickly.  They didn't.

I thought to use maybe use the angle grinder if I made a bad weld, but I wasn't gonna tell anybody.  I thought it was kinda cheating.

Michael, it is the primary mounting for the engine.  I don't have any rhino horns.  It is a tube frame chassis, no VW pan.

I bought a welder's helmet today.  My friend's helmet has a broken strap that kept falling in my face.

Everything Michael and Bruce said is true. Welding stainless is zero fun. Doing it flux-core is guaranteed to make you look like a monkey. If this is your primary mount, I'd probably make the piece you want out of stainless as well.

You're going to need better equipment-- a good self-darkening hood and an (at minimum) 150a gas-shielded MIG welder with a decent duty-cycle. And yes, do everything you can on a horizontal, and cleanliness is next to godliness.

The dirty brown stuff is the residue from the welding flux.  Yes, it wire brushes off but as you saw with the welder in your class, they probably didn’t use flux core rod/wire and probably did have an argon gas feed to shield the weld.

You’ll need stainless rod or wire to weld stainless, but even then it is more difficult than regular steel and you will need an argon gas mix for stainless (the welding supply place will know the right mix).  I can gas weld (MIG) stainless but it’s tough.  I can TIG weld stainless and the welds come out better than decent, but for me, TIG welding is just like torch welding, which I’m good at - all the approach and movements are the same.

If you weld stainless with a flux core rod/wire, chances are that later on the weld will rust.  I know that’s happened to me more than once.

Hey!  Look at all you’re learning!

ALB posted:

I don't know much about this subject, but 1 thing I have learned from watching more experienced friends- old wet towels work really well to protect things you don't want weld splatter to stick to (or burn!). And that's all I've got...

Maybe you don't know much about this subject, but I did not know about the wet towel method, and I was wondering what to do about splatter.  Best not to get any splatter at all, but probably good foresight to use a wet towel just in case.

Todd,Take a look at a Miller 151 or the newest version of it. Hobart's are made by miller too. You'll never be sorry you bought a real mig welder. I use a combination gas mix of Argon/CO2 for economy. My machine takes a 30 lb spool of .035 wire. It lasts about 2 years for me. I also have a 10 lb spool of stainless wire for stainless welding and another tank of pure Argon gas for this kind of welding. Wet towels work really well. Also you can buy a rattle can of spray to apply to the area around your weld. This makes any splatter not stick to the surfaces around your welds. I use it on the jig when I'm fabricating a batch of license plate holders. Air Gas Co sells all this stuff. Even the welder. Buy Once-Cry Once....You'll never regret spending this money.........Bruce

I like the idea of of using a bus engine mount but cutting, drilling and learning to weld stainless plus buying a mig /tig welder is a big investment in time and money. I used heavy duty trans mounts, a mid mount and kafer bars in my '56 bug with a wrx subi        (215 rear wheel hp), the front trans mount is the weak link. I think that is what I will do in my chinese coupe,yes I have one also. Mine did not come with a steering rack or tie rods, do you know what you have in your car?

wrx speedster posted:

I like the idea of of using a bus engine mount but cutting, drilling and learning to weld stainless plus buying a mig /tig welder is a big investment in time and money. I used heavy duty trans mounts, a mid mount and kafer bars in my '56 bug with a wrx subi        (215 rear wheel hp), the front trans mount is the weak link. I think that is what I will do in my chinese coupe,yes I have one also. Mine did not come with a steering rack or tie rods, do you know what you have in your car?

SO FREAKIN' KOOL!!!   You have one also!!!  I know someone else who has one and like me, he lives in So Cal.  Where do you live?  We have lots to compare.

The rack and pinion is from a Suzuki Samurai/Geo Tracker.  The rest of the front end was custom built by the previous owner, except for the steering column from the box up.  The column was quite a chore, because there are no stock parts that fit.  My steering box is pushed way toward the firewall, so none of the VW columns fit.  I had to cut and fab.

My guess is that you better get used to cutting and drilling and paying someone to weld.  My plan was to pay someone else to do the welding, but the places in time that I need welding will be so sporadic, that I would have to have a mobile welder come out a gazillion times.  My plan was to get to the point where I needed welding on a bunch of stuff and then call, but much, if not all the car has to be built in a serial rather than parallel manner.  My new plan is to buy a used welder on craigslist, and then sell it on craigslist when I am finished.  I do that with tools that I will only use once or twice or tools that take up too much room in my garage.  It is cheaper than renting tools.

I think that using the Subamounts engine mount also requires fabrication and welding for our cars.  I chose the Busaru mount because it got me closer to the frame and it is centered on the Suzuki mounts.  IIRC, the Subamounts does not necessitate cutting the mount, but since it doesn't reach the frame, some type of addition is needed.

Welding hints: you can weld 3/8" steel to 3/8" steel with a 140 amp Mig welder of you do two things: preheat and dual shielding. Preheat is very effective as all your amperage goes into the bead rather than the surrounding area.

Dual shielding is using flux-core wire and Argon/CO2 mix. I don't know the why buy it helps.

I have a 140 amp Lotos that I got on Amazon for less than 400. It's really nice for the money. Duty cycle is decent too.

I'll get a Tig someday soon I hope. I did really well in class with some light aluminum. Something cathartic about pulsed Tig.

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