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Just passing on some information. Outfront built the engine in my Spyder. Some of you have ridden in it or have driven it yourself. It’s a very fast car. Basically due to better heads with bigger cams and ports. Also aftermarket ECU.
I was thinking about putting my name on the list for a Super Coupe with the 911 engine until I spoke with John from Outfront this morning. I know this is completely subjective but I like the look of the 356 A more than the 356 C. And my Convertible D will also have a removable hard top and role up windows. So just about as practical as a coupe.
Carey said in his post that a 911 engine cannot be stuffed into a speedster/Conv D. So if you want reliable power it’s going to have to be a 4 cylinder Subaru.
Back to John at Outfront. They are adding another 150cc to the 2.5 l engine by stroking it. They are also using the variable cam engines for the stroker. The engine is being installed with an aftermarket ECU and producing an honest 240-250hp. Henry at intermeccanica has ordered a couple strokers and will be installing them with a stock ECU. John says that even with the stock ECU he thinks the engine will produce close to 240hp. The Subaru engine also saves 30-40lbs over the 911 996 engine. Less weight behind the rear wheels. I’m sticking with the Conv D. 240-250 hp will be plenty. And NO turbocharging!  

Phil Luebbert

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That all sounds good, but I seriously doubt that 150cc is going to give you 75-85 hp. Orange County Correction factor indeed.

Factory EJ-25 is 165hp. In Phil's Spyder with the better breathing heads, cams, aftermarket ECU and free-flow exhaust it MIGHT be 200hp, but is more likely 190hp max. Why do I say this? The Subaru 2.5 is already in a pretty good state of tune from the factory, it is already VERY efficient.

I've driven your car. It's VERY quick. I really don't mean to disparage your ride. I just like truth in advertising.

Phil, you're talking another 50-60 hp from 150cc. An extra 150cc is going to give you 15-25 hp. The math doesn't make sense to me.

Show me the dyno sheet. If not, it's 210-220 hp all up.

This is the same power output Jake was getting with his HUGE type4 screamers (which happen to be 2.6 or 2.7 liters).

Last edited by DannyP

The Outfront stoker is 2.6 L SOHC 4 valve/cylinder.  With built ported heads, larger cams, variable cam timing, EFI and dialed in ECU.  Why would this not be MORE hp than a 2.6 L air cooled 2 valve/cylinder carburated Type 4.  It not even close.  The Suby with the variable cam timing is going to have more low end torque and is going to reach 7500 rpms very quickly.  Danny you have infinite more knowledge than I do about engine technology.  But this is a very high technology engine.  At the same displacement the suby engine will be much more powerful than a Type 4 and it will be more reliable.  I'll put my 2.5 L Outfront Suby spyder up against any 2.6 L Type 4 and my engine isn't anything like this stroker.  I sent Greg Leach a text and asked him about this engine.  He said that its the best naturally aspirated EJ ever.  He is recommending this engine to all of his clients. 

@550 Phil posted:

And the engine complete is less than $15k (I paid about $10k for my Spyder engine in 2017).  Don't know how much a 2.6L Type 4 is these days.  Jake doesn't make them anymore.  I'd bet that a completed 2.6L 210-220 hp Type 4 is considerably more than $15k.

I'll bet you're right.

Both engines are in a VERY high state of tune.

Again, show me the dyno sheet. I really want to see it. And watch the dyno pull.

My Cayman at 3.4 liters makes 295 hp. The base car at 2.7 liters is at 245 hp.

Do you see where I'm going here? That's a 700 cc increase for 50 hp. An extra 150cc is not going to deliver 50 hp. Period.

Last edited by DannyP

You can't base the calculation base on a stock 2.5L 165hp engine and a stock ECU.  Lets assume that the stroker 2.6L Suby with variable cam, built heads and high performance ECU has the same state of tune as the base Cayman 2.7 L 245hp car.  This is an assumption but the calculated power is 227hp for the Suby.  I'll take 227hp.  I would also argue that an aftermarket tune for that 2.7 L Cayman would likely be higher than 245hp.  I personally think that its conceivable that this high performance aftermarket Subaru engine is good for 240hp.  Call Greg.  Talk to him.  He's installing lots of these engines.  I'm sure he has a good idea of the performance.

@550 Phil posted:

You can't base the calculation base on a stock 2.5L 165hp engine and a stock ECU.  Lets assume that the stroker 2.6L Suby with variable cam, built heads and high performance ECU has the same state of tune as the base Cayman 2.7 L 245hp car.  This is an assumption but the calculated power is 227hp for the Suby.  I'll take 227hp.  I would also argue that an aftermarket tune for that 2.7 L Cayman would likely be higher than 245hp.  I personally think that its conceivable that this high performance aftermarket Subaru engine is good for 240hp.  Call Greg.  Talk to him.  He's installing lots of these engines.  I'm sure he has a good idea of the performance.

Ok. So we're going to use the J.C. Whitney logic that each tuned "thing" adds 10%?

It doesn't work that way in the REAL world. There is no free lunch. Each item that is tuned/tweaked adds power but as the state of tune goes UP there are diminishing returns.

There isn't a whole lot more to be gained in a Cayman with an ECU flash as the engines are vario-cam and in a very high state of tune already.

@550 Phil posted:

I actually asked John at Outfront if he had dyno'd the engine.  He said that his dyno only measures power at the wheel.  That's unfortunate. I'm sure you are right as always Danny.  My current engine is advertised as 230hp and is likely more like 200hp.  John is claiming 240-250hp from this engine.  If I can get a real 220-230hp I'd be happy with that.

Most guys factor a 20% loss from the crank to the wheels. Therefore, if John at Outfront knows the horsepower at the wheels, you can extrapolate power at the crank by dividing that number by .8. It's not dead-nuts reliable, but it is pretty close.

I think it's cool that he's got an ECU that can do variable valve timing, but the devil is in the details.

I'd fly out and drive or ride in a car that has this engine before I pulled the trigger. Almost anybody can tune an engine to make great power at wide-open throttle. The magic is in the transitions, and variable valve timing is all about maximizing those transitions. You have no idea how well it works (or not) unless you drive a car with one installed.

I hope it's astounding. It'd be fantastic for somebody to (truly) break the code for modern ICE engine management. Most of it is a bit rough around the edges.

I'm going to take this as an opportunity to give a shout out to Mike Fincher.  Some of you guys know Mike and his craziness from Carlisle, but among other things he builds up the Subaru engines for Beck.  They start with a new short block from Subaru and then Mike works his magic.  The engine may be stock in configuration, but it breathes through a freer flowing exhaust (in my case a work of visual and auditory art from @chines1).  It probably has a few horses more than stock, but the beauty is how well it all works. My SC starts instantly on the first crank and idles smoothly.  It has ample smooth power from idle to the rev limiter, which catches you by surprise because it comes so quickly in the lower gears.  Throttle response is instantaneous in all gears and I don't feel the need for any more power - not to say I wouldn't enjoy it .  And to top it off you get to pick your colors, even though it's easier to see mine from underneath.

Outfront has an excellent reputation, but I wanted to give some credit to the guy I call the "Suby Whisperer."  Yeah, it's not air-cooled and it's not Porsche, but I'm more than fine with that.

Agreed, @DannyP. I've never liked the 20% rule, as it assumes that every drivetrain is equally inefficient. It's just the number everybody uses.

Turbo hyrdamatic 400 automatic running through a 3000 stall torque converter and a 12 bolt rear end? 20%. 4-speed VW transaxle? 20%.

Its only value is to provide a conservative estimate on crank horsepower, rather than a hopeful one, and that's rather in short supply in a sea of hype.

Last edited by Stan Galat

Vintage built me the first ever Subaru Spyder in 2003.  It had a stock 165hp 2.5L EJ with a stock ECU.  I wasn't happy with the power.  After my motorcycle accident in 2013 I bought an Intermeccanica Convertible D with a 125hp 2.0L VW/Audi watercooled.  I put in a larger cam, reflashed the ECU and replaced the exhaust system.  Probably got it up to 135-140hp.  I wasn't happy with the power.  My current Vintage Spyder with approximately 200 hp is just about perfect.  I'm keeping the Spyder and will be building a 356 replica in 2-3 years.  Who knows.  I thought I could be happy with a stock 165 hp Suby.  I can't.  Carey would rather put a stock Suby with stock ECU in my car but is willing to go with a built Suby with aftermarket ECU.  He also said that for the rear engine 911 car he thinks he's going to use the stock Porsche 911 rear suspension.  Sounds awesome.  I like the looks of the A better than the C but I've come to a conclusion.  The most important thing for me is power.  I'm 61 years old.  I just spent close to 6 figures on my daughters wedding.  Its my turn.  This is likely my last car.  I really don't know what I want other than the ultimate performance car.  2-3 years is such a long time.  Subaru aftermarket technology can change.  The watercooled SC6 could end up being the ultimate 356 replica.  I'm putting myself on both lists, the speedster list and the SC list.  I'm about 2 years out on the speedster list and I guess I'll be about 3 years out on the SC list.  I need tokeep my options open.

outfront made my EJ25 SOHC for my JPS coupe....so far zero complaints...turn key....people ask me all the time if it is turbocharged ...i just say , not needed!...20190912_114048at 4000 RPM in 3rd gear the car just comes alive and will pass what ever needs passing when the passing lane comes into view...and zero tinkering, which makes me smile

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Lane.  I'm sure Mike is an expert at what he does.  And the vast majority of folks will be happy with stock performance.  With the stock ECU you can even use regular gas since you will not get better performance with high test.  I ran regular gas in my IM with its Jetta engine until I added the new cam and reflashed the ECU.  If you are running a low compression engine you don't need high test. 

My point is that these engines have so much more potential.  If you build better heads, add 150cc displacement and dial in an aftermarket ECU I think an additional 50 hp is achieveable.  And this will make a noticeable difference.  Like I said I've owned Spyders with stock and built Subies.  I personally don't care if I get 100,000 miles out of my replica.  I won't be driving mine that much.  I have a 2018 Spyder with 4000 miles.

I'm not commited to Outfront.  Although I do have an amazing Outfront engine in my Spyder.  If Mike wants to build me a stroker with high performance heads and use an aftermarket ECU I'd defintely be interested.

@Arden posted:

I’m all about Horsepower I love it! But what suspension and tire combination are you going to run? If you can’t get that power to the ground it’s wasted and all you have is a car with a High horsepower that can’t live up to it’s potential.

PS: I Hope Everyone Has A Happy Thanksgiving!!!

Yup. Happy 🦃 Day.
My kids plane just landed. Going to be fun.
You make an excellent point. Type 1 4 speed in my Spyder has a lImited slip differential. The car would be useless without it. Great question for Carey about the 5 speed Subaru transmission. If I can’t get an LSD in a Subaru 5 speed I’ll go with a type 1 VW with a LSD.  
I’m pretty happy with the rubber on my Spyder. I think a little wheel spin is fun. However when the rear breaks loose with a LSD you’ve pretty much lost it.

@550 Phil posted:

Yup. Happy 🦃 Day.
My kids plane just landed. Going to be fun.
You make an excellent point. Type 1 4 speed in my Spyder has a lImited slip differential. The car would be useless without it. Great question for Carey about the 5 speed Subaru transmission. If I can’t get an LSD in a Subaru 5 speed I’ll go with a type 1 VW with a LSD.  
I’m pretty happy with the rubber on my Spyder. I think a little wheel spin is fun. However when the rear breaks loose with a LSD you’ve pretty much lost it.

With a subaru you can absolutely get an LSD, even if it is schedule 1.

@LI-Rick IMHO a Quaife isn't necessary in a Spyder. The car is so light.

I can't fit one with my 3.44 R&P. It will fit with a 3.88. But IMHO the gearing is too short with anything BUT a 3.44(and a 6500 rpm limit). The tallest 2nd gear available is a 1.93 now.

Unless your motor revs to like 8000, like Phil's. Your mileage may vary...

I leave two stripes with 180hp.

Last edited by DannyP
@550 Phil posted:

The Outfront stoker is 2.6 L SOHC 4 valve/cylinder.  With built ported heads, larger cams, variable cam timing, EFI and dialed in ECU.  Why would this not be MORE hp than a 2.6 L air cooled 2 valve/cylinder carburated Type 4.  It not even close.  The Suby with the variable cam timing is going to have more low end torque and is going to reach 7500 rpms very quickly.  Danny you have infinite more knowledge than I do about engine technology.  But this is a very high technology engine.  At the same displacement the suby engine will be much more powerful than a Type 4 and it will be more reliable.  I'll put my 2.5 L Outfront Suby spyder up against any 2.6 L Type 4 and my engine isn't anything like this stroker.  I sent Greg Leach a text and asked him about this engine.  He said that its the best naturally aspirated EJ ever.  He is recommending this engine to all of his clients.

@550 Phil love their grocery getter stroker.

If I don’t have an lsd in my car I paid $1000 for nothing. My first Spyder with a 2109cc type 1 did not have a lsd. My second Spyder with a stock Suby did have a lsd. My current 200 hp car will spin both tires at will. I have now built 3 spyders. All rancho transmissions.  Maybe lsd is not the appropriate term. But all I know is when I accelerate both of my wheels are spinning unlike my first Spyder.

If you got it from Rancho it's probably a Peloquin torsen style lsd. It is essentially a Quiafe in operation and design but was made specifically for the VW transmission cases. A 3.88 r&p is the end of the range it will fit, though, so no 3.44. I have this exact one in my type 1 transmission. I figured that with a worked Subie in my coupe, and often wet roads, it would be prudent to have one...also, hole shots.

Many will argue that a torsen gear type differential isn't a true lsd and that title can only be assigned to a clutch type. There are a few ZF clutch types out there for a type 1, and they are quite sought after. If you are going to go Subie transmission you'll be able to get a clutch type (OS Giken), a torsen (Quaife, or Wavetrac which I think has adjustable preload so it acts a little more like a clutch type), or just a stock Subie torsen lsd.

@LI-Rick posted:

@550 Phil, $1000 for a Peloquin is a good deal! I would definitely call that a LSD.

A Torsen is NOT a Limited Slip. But we're splitting hairs. I actually think the Torsen is a better device for a street car since it goes from 1% to 99% torque on one wheel. Definitely NOT good if one wheel is off the ground.

A true LSD has clutches and gives a certain percentage of lockup: 20, 30, 40% or so, depending on design and clutch material condition. The geared design does not give you lockup under braking, which is usually a good thing and intended/needed for track usage. The only ones of this type are the factory ZF and those are all expensive unobtanium or completely worn out. They are pretty rare today.

Peloquin and Quaife are both still available to fit a swing trans as far as I know. Weddle has one too, but it might just be a re-branded Quaife or Peloquin.

If you got it from Rancho it's probably a Peloquin torsen style lsd. It is essentially a Quiafe in operation and design but was made specifically for the VW transmission cases. A 3.88 r&p is the end of the range it will fit, though, so no 3.44. I have this exact one in my type 1 transmission. I figured that with a worked Subie in my coupe, and often wet roads, it would be prudent to have one...also, hole shots.

Many will argue that a torsen gear type differential isn't a true lsd and that title can only be assigned to a clutch type. There are a few ZF clutch types out there for a type 1, and they are quite sought after. If you are going to go Subie transmission you'll be able to get a clutch type (OS Giken), a torsen (Quaife, or Wavetrac which I think has adjustable preload so it acts a little more like a clutch type), or just a stock Subie torsen lsd.

I mentioned the max 3.88 and non-fitment of the 3.44 above. I have heard various folks say that the 3.44 could fit with some machine work. I'm not sure of this.

I also believe that Paul Guard of Guard Transmissions makes a swing Torsen as well. I believe it's $2200 or so.

Last edited by DannyP

Depending on how a clutch type is set up they can have a small negative effect on turn in. At high levels of lock they tend to increase understeer, which gets worse the closer to square the car is (equal wheelbase and track). This trade off is mitigated by mid-corner and corner exit behavior with power application constant no matter if a wheel is substantially (or even completely) unweighted, and also typically giving better drive out of tight corners. In a race application this may be good for a second a lap or more on a short course (>2 miles). Plus some (most?) clutch diffs can be adjusted to have different behavior on the overrun vs accelerating. As with all tuning at the hairy edge it's a constant balancing act between trade-offs and benefits....and money.  A clutch type will require maintenance with more frequent fluid changes and replacement of clutch discs.

On a street driven car the Torsen is a friendlier set-up and freewheels if off the throttle on corner on entry, but will apportion traction based on conditions when throttle is applied. That was why rally cars went to them as a mechanical way to quickly "tune" the diff to extremely variable conditions on the fly.  Now they let a computer do that and vary the pressure on the clutch pacs in the diff in milliseconds.  Why do that?  In addition to ultimate tune-ability it turns out a Torsen diff will really heat the hell out of the diff fluid when driven in extreme anger (I say extreme because you can't drive it hard enough on the street long enough for that to be a problem and remain amongst the living). It's just not an issue for us, we're not doing 6 hour endurance races, or 3 special stages before lunch.  The Torsen doesn't negatively effect maintenance intervals on a street driven car even with the occasional track day thrown into the mix.

The hot set-up for a big 4 stroke twin when I was racing motorcycles was a slipper clutch set up to provide just enough drag on the rear wheel to help settle the rear wheel at turn in. It was like magic sauce when it was set-up properly, and had the side benefit of saving your buns when you fracked-up the rev match on a down shift.  They behaved like a multi plate LSD that was tuned to slip in one direction a given percentage (deceleration) and lock up in the other direction (acceleration).  It took a while to figure out what was best, and of course rain would require a completely different set-up.  On a two stroke like my beloved RS 125 it was completely superfluous; they just didn't have enough engine breaking for it to be an issue at all.  Has anyone made a clown car with a two stroke?  

Last edited by JMM (Michael)

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