Outfront

Sounds right to me. I doubt if the dimensions of the engine will change much from 150cc of stroking. That's an abundance of power, I think!

That all sounds good, but I seriously doubt that 150cc is going to give you 75-85 hp. Orange County Correction factor indeed.

Factory EJ-25 is 165hp. In Phil's Spyder with the better breathing heads, cams, aftermarket ECU and free-flow exhaust it MIGHT be 200hp, but is more likely 190hp max. Why do I say this? The Subaru 2.5 is already in a pretty good state of tune from the factory, it is already VERY efficient.

I've driven your car. It's VERY quick. I really don't mean to disparage your ride. I just like truth in advertising.

Phil, you're talking another 50-60 hp from 150cc. An extra 150cc is going to give you 15-25 hp. The math doesn't make sense to me.

Show me the dyno sheet. If not, it's 210-220 hp all up.

This is the same power output Jake was getting with his HUGE type4 screamers (which happen to be 2.6 or 2.7 liters).

The Outfront stoker is 2.6 L SOHC 4 valve/cylinder.  With built ported heads, larger cams, variable cam timing, EFI and dialed in ECU.  Why would this not be MORE hp than a 2.6 L air cooled 2 valve/cylinder carburated Type 4.  It not even close.  The Suby with the variable cam timing is going to have more low end torque and is going to reach 7500 rpms very quickly.  Danny you have infinite more knowledge than I do about engine technology.  But this is a very high technology engine.  At the same displacement the suby engine will be much more powerful than a Type 4 and it will be more reliable.  I'll put my 2.5 L Outfront Suby spyder up against any 2.6 L Type 4 and my engine isn't anything like this stroker.  I sent Greg Leach a text and asked him about this engine.  He said that its the best naturally aspirated EJ ever.  He is recommending this engine to all of his clients. 

And the engine complete is less than $15k (I paid about $10k for my Spyder engine in 2017).  Don't know how much a 2.6L Type 4 is these days.  Jake doesn't make them anymore.  I'd bet that a completed 2.6L 210-220 hp Type 4 is considerably more than $15k.

@550 Phil posted:

And the engine complete is less than $15k (I paid about $10k for my Spyder engine in 2017).  Don't know how much a 2.6L Type 4 is these days.  Jake doesn't make them anymore.  I'd bet that a completed 2.6L 210-220 hp Type 4 is considerably more than $15k.

I'll bet you're right.

Both engines are in a VERY high state of tune.

Again, show me the dyno sheet. I really want to see it. And watch the dyno pull.

My Cayman at 3.4 liters makes 295 hp. The base car at 2.7 liters is at 245 hp.

Do you see where I'm going here? That's a 700 cc increase for 50 hp. An extra 150cc is not going to deliver 50 hp. Period.

I have tried to get my own guy to build a NA with better performance so I just sent that info to my tuner Phil, just to see if this winning rally racer that builds near me, can confirm the logic.   Just saying.

You can't base the calculation base on a stock 2.5L 165hp engine and a stock ECU.  Lets assume that the stroker 2.6L Suby with variable cam, built heads and high performance ECU has the same state of tune as the base Cayman 2.7 L 245hp car.  This is an assumption but the calculated power is 227hp for the Suby.  I'll take 227hp.  I would also argue that an aftermarket tune for that 2.7 L Cayman would likely be higher than 245hp.  I personally think that its conceivable that this high performance aftermarket Subaru engine is good for 240hp.  Call Greg.  Talk to him.  He's installing lots of these engines.  I'm sure he has a good idea of the performance.

I actually asked John at Outfront if he had dyno'd the engine.  He said that his dyno only measures power at the wheel.  That's unfortunate.  I'm sure you are right as always Danny.  My current engine is advertised as 230hp and is likely more like 200hp.  John is claiming 240-250hp from this engine.  If I can get a real 220-230hp I'd be happy with that.

You might want to try one of these!!

@550 Phil posted:

You can't base the calculation base on a stock 2.5L 165hp engine and a stock ECU.  Lets assume that the stroker 2.6L Suby with variable cam, built heads and high performance ECU has the same state of tune as the base Cayman 2.7 L 245hp car.  This is an assumption but the calculated power is 227hp for the Suby.  I'll take 227hp.  I would also argue that an aftermarket tune for that 2.7 L Cayman would likely be higher than 245hp.  I personally think that its conceivable that this high performance aftermarket Subaru engine is good for 240hp.  Call Greg.  Talk to him.  He's installing lots of these engines.  I'm sure he has a good idea of the performance.

Ok. So we're going to use the J.C. Whitney logic that each tuned "thing" adds 10%?

It doesn't work that way in the REAL world. There is no free lunch. Each item that is tuned/tweaked adds power but as the state of tune goes UP there are diminishing returns.

There isn't a whole lot more to be gained in a Cayman with an ECU flash as the engines are vario-cam and in a very high state of tune already.

Phil,  Jake Raby 2056cc T4 is like 23k so you would be adding a few grand to get to that bigger displacement.

@550 Phil posted:

I actually asked John at Outfront if he had dyno'd the engine.  He said that his dyno only measures power at the wheel.  That's unfortunate. I'm sure you are right as always Danny.  My current engine is advertised as 230hp and is likely more like 200hp.  John is claiming 240-250hp from this engine.  If I can get a real 220-230hp I'd be happy with that.

Most guys factor a 20% loss from the crank to the wheels. Therefore, if John at Outfront knows the horsepower at the wheels, you can extrapolate power at the crank by dividing that number by .8. It's not dead-nuts reliable, but it is pretty close.

I think it's cool that he's got an ECU that can do variable valve timing, but the devil is in the details.

I'd fly out and drive or ride in a car that has this engine before I pulled the trigger. Almost anybody can tune an engine to make great power at wide-open throttle. The magic is in the transitions, and variable valve timing is all about maximizing those transitions. You have no idea how well it works (or not) unless you drive a car with one installed.

I hope it's astounding. It'd be fantastic for somebody to (truly) break the code for modern ICE engine management. Most of it is a bit rough around the edges.

I'm going to take this as an opportunity to give a shout out to Mike Fincher.  Some of you guys know Mike and his craziness from Carlisle, but among other things he builds up the Subaru engines for Beck.  They start with a new short block from Subaru and then Mike works his magic.  The engine may be stock in configuration, but it breathes through a freer flowing exhaust (in my case a work of visual and auditory art from @chines1).  It probably has a few horses more than stock, but the beauty is how well it all works. My SC starts instantly on the first crank and idles smoothly.  It has ample smooth power from idle to the rev limiter, which catches you by surprise because it comes so quickly in the lower gears.  Throttle response is instantaneous in all gears and I don't feel the need for any more power - not to say I wouldn't enjoy it .  And to top it off you get to pick your colors, even though it's easier to see mine from underneath.

Outfront has an excellent reputation, but I wanted to give some credit to the guy I call the "Suby Whisperer."  Yeah, it's not air-cooled and it's not Porsche, but I'm more than fine with that.

I don't know about Suby transmissions at all.

But I have read some stuff about the VW type1 transmission. It is pretty darn efficient compared to others, and I think we are only losing about 10% of the power through it.

I think that might change all those horsepower estimates "at the wheels" if using the VW trans.

Agreed, @DannyP. I've never liked the 20% rule, as it assumes that every drivetrain is equally inefficient. It's just the number everybody uses.

Turbo hyrdamatic 400 automatic running through a 3000 stall torque converter and a 12 bolt rear end? 20%. 4-speed VW transaxle? 20%.

Its only value is to provide a conservative estimate on crank horsepower, rather than a hopeful one, and that's rather in short supply in a sea of hype.

Vintage built me the first ever Subaru Spyder in 2003.  It had a stock 165hp 2.5L EJ with a stock ECU.  I wasn't happy with the power.  After my motorcycle accident in 2013 I bought an Intermeccanica Convertible D with a 125hp 2.0L VW/Audi watercooled.  I put in a larger cam, reflashed the ECU and replaced the exhaust system.  Probably got it up to 135-140hp.  I wasn't happy with the power.  My current Vintage Spyder with approximately 200 hp is just about perfect.  I'm keeping the Spyder and will be building a 356 replica in 2-3 years.  Who knows.  I thought I could be happy with a stock 165 hp Suby.  I can't.  Carey would rather put a stock Suby with stock ECU in my car but is willing to go with a built Suby with aftermarket ECU.  He also said that for the rear engine 911 car he thinks he's going to use the stock Porsche 911 rear suspension.  Sounds awesome.  I like the looks of the A better than the C but I've come to a conclusion.  The most important thing for me is power.  I'm 61 years old.  I just spent close to 6 figures on my daughters wedding.  Its my turn.  This is likely my last car.  I really don't know what I want other than the ultimate performance car.  2-3 years is such a long time.  Subaru aftermarket technology can change.  The watercooled SC6 could end up being the ultimate 356 replica.  I'm putting myself on both lists, the speedster list and the SC list.  I'm about 2 years out on the speedster list and I guess I'll be about 3 years out on the SC list.  I need tokeep my options open.

outfront made my EJ25 SOHC for my JPS coupe....so far zero complaints...turn key....people ask me all the time if it is turbocharged ...i just say , not needed!...at 4000 RPM in 3rd gear the car just comes alive and will pass what ever needs passing when the passing lane comes into view...and zero tinkering, which makes me smile

You likely have the same engine as I do likely with a Stinger ECU.

If your build sheet says this we have the same engine.  Its all in the head work.

Z casting heads, they have factory larger cams, bigger ports 

I’m all about Horsepower I love it! But what suspension and tire combination are you going to run? If you can’t get that power to the ground it’s wasted and all you have is a car with a High horsepower that can’t live up to it’s potential.

PS: I Hope Everyone Has A Happy Thanksgiving!!!