What's funny is how many people have owned originals in the past, coupe or Speedster, and purchase a replica the second time around? LOTS OF 'EM!

Why? Because they want the aircooled/vintage experience without the headache/heartache/wallet-ache of an original. In short, they want something they can use without any negative feelings of any kind.

WTTM

I just got finished watching a Restoration Design video where they are scanning a speedster to produce replacement panels. There was nothing left of this car when they got started and I thought to myself, can you still call this a real Porsche when 90% of the car is now replacement( replica) aftermarket panels? It still looks like a Porsche but it's really a representation of what the car looked like at one time.

jesse postill posted:

I just got finished watching a Restoration Design video where they are scanning a speedster to produce replacement panels. There was nothing left of this car when they got started and I thought to myself, can you still call this a real Porsche when 90% of the car is now replacement( replica) aftermarket panels? It still looks like a Porsche but it's really a representation of what the car looked like at one time.

 

jesse postill posted:

I just got finished watching a Restoration Design video where they are scanning a speedster to produce replacement panels. There was nothing left of this car when they got started and I thought to myself, can you still call this a real Porsche when 90% of the car is now replacement( replica) aftermarket panels? It still looks like a Porsche but it's really a representation of what the car looked like at one time.

Bingo.

Stan Galat posted:
jesse postill posted:

I just got finished watching a Restoration Design video where they are scanning a speedster to produce replacement panels. There was nothing left of this car when they got started and I thought to myself, can you still call this a real Porsche when 90% of the car is now replacement( replica) aftermarket panels? It still looks like a Porsche but it's really a representation of what the car looked like at one time.

Bingo.

While I certainly agree with your point, and I think the whole "original vs rebuilt/restored/saved" (or whatever you want to call it) debate hasn't been explored fully, isn't it great that there's someone with the money (and someone with the skills) to put that car back together so it's not lost to history?

If I bulldoze a historic 1800's home and just build on the original foundation, is it still an 1800's house? What if I just tear it down to the studs?

If the kitchen and bathrooms are all (obviously) updated, is it just the "frame" that counts? The "engine"?

What's the VIN for a house?

DannyP posted:

What's funny is how many people have owned originals in the past, coupe or Speedster, and purchase a replica the second time around? LOTS OF 'EM!

Why? Because they want the aircooled/vintage experience without the headache/heartache/wallet-ache of an original. In short, they want something they can use without any negative feelings of any kind.

WTTM

I agree, because we owned a 1960 356B Coupe back in the ‘70s which we loved, but we needed cash so tried to sell it for $1600 which is what we paid for it but there were no takers even with a brand new paint job on it! We ended up trading it straight across for a 1964 VW Camper. But we always knew eventually we would get another 356 but in 2016 the prices were ridiculous so we bought the replica CMC Speedster we have now.         (which by the way, rides much better than our 1960 real Porsche)

Gee, I owned a 59 356A coupe in the 70's and I loved the car but I subsequently owned two IM's one full AC and now the second is a full subie and 911 front end. 

I mean if all you have from the original car is essentially this Vin, it is a replica, recreation, rebuild.  Then you have the esoteric nuances of a not so stratght car as well as you would with any hand built car depending on the skills of the builder. 

So you have to ask yourself again, what do you really want?  Is it an original then you keep dreaming of bigger AC engines etc or a Replica recreation with modern tech, engine etc like the subie. 

To each his own opinion, in the end.  

As far as the "this is not a real P" comment....and. 

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I find the sentence in the article about the author hoping replica owners will "step up and buy and love our cars as we pass them on" to be pretty patronizing. That is an example of the unfortunate arrogance and sense of superiority of some P-car owners, although it is true of some owners of other luxury products as well. 

I've owned and appreciated two "real Porsches" in the past. I chose to acquire a replica Speedster based in part on my experience with those two cars. I know many replica owners to have done the same and some still own "real Porsches" as well. We are not a group of peasants scrambling to reach that magic moment when we can acquire some Holy Grail of automotive excellence. After all, Porsches aren't perfect. (Think IMS bearings for instance).

I don't feel any need to "step up", nor do I believe that I stepped down in acquiring a replica. It made, and continues to make sense for me. If I wanted a "real Porsche" I could and would go get one.

Thanks, but I don't need or relish acquiring your cast-offs.

 

Panhandle Bob posted:

I find the sentence in the article about the author hoping replica owners will "step up and buy and love our cars as we pass them on" to be pretty patronizing. That is an example of the unfortunate arrogance and sense of superiority of some P-car owners, although it is true of some owners of other luxury products as well. 

I've owned and appreciated two "real Porsches" in the past. I chose to acquire a replica Speedster based in part on my experience with those two cars. I know many replica owners to have done the same and some still own "real Porsches" as well. We are not a group of peasants scrambling to reach that magic moment when we can acquire some Holy Grail of automotive excellence. After all, Porsches aren't perfect. (Think IMS bearings for instance).

I don't feel any need to "step up", nor do I believe that I stepped down in acquiring a replica. It made, and continues to make sense for me. If I wanted a "real Porsche" I could and would go get one.

Thanks, but I don't need or relish acquiring your cast-offs.

 

I couldn't agree with you more, Bob! Why would I "step up" and buy something that is too valuable to drive? I still think that a lot of vintage Porsche owners don't get that cars are meant to be driven to be fully appreciated, and admiring a car in a garage or on a show field while never getting to feel the road underneath is truly sacrilegious.

I have had the real experience many times, mostly with 911s and one 912E. My first real experience was with a 63 356B imported used from Germany purchased in 1973.  Lots of mechanical issues including a blown engine. The real end came when I was jacking it up on a busy road and keeping an eye on the traffic. The jack came up through the side of the car from the severe rust. This was a "restored" car sold by an authorized Porsche Dealer. With a little legal fuss, they took the car back a full price and I bought a BMW Bavaria. Now that is another story unto itself. I love my fake. 

"We are not a group of peasants scrambling to reach that magic moment when we can acquire some Holy Grail of automotive excellence. After all, Porsches aren't perfect. (Think IMS bearings for instance)."

That was funny. 

Bob, your right on that one.  I passed on a used 356 in early 2000, and as for the newer 911's  I simply am not ennamored with their newer technology.  Maybe I am stuck in the past but auto pilot is not for me ... I am the Pilot of the Auto  

Don't get me wrong the new cars are nice, as are lambo's but after it passes by I don't crane my neck to see it or absolutely have to have one.

As to my DD whatever works for your value/need equation is find with me but I find the manufacturers sometimes are out of touch with what I want.

 Well, maybe it is all the government intervention.   

Couple of examples of "replica" Porsches, from recent history:

550-0082 auctioned last year for a bit more than three million euros. It has a replica body and replacement engine, having been rebodied previously (circa mid 1960s) in fiberglass as an APAL coupe. Its provenance is exquisite.

550-01 That's right, the original original Porsche Spyder. It was rebodied in fiberglass by a friend of the owner—a Mexican boat builder—because the aluminum body was flaking off it and the guy who ended up with Porsche 550-01 did not know anyone who could work in aluminum

Miles Collier bought it and the rest is effectively priceless Porsche Replica History.

 

 

i have owned 1965 Porsche 356 SC Coupe #131280 since 1974. It still provides a great "The Way Things Were" experience. I am currently breaking in my new built-to-order Vintage Motorcars 2332cc Speedster (AKA Hot Rod Volkswagen). It also provides the same experience, but in a different way. It takes me back to my 1954 Jaguar XK120 Roadster. Noisy, fast, and rough riding. The coupe is smoother in steering, shifting, and handling. The Speedster has more power, but requires more effort to operate. I am lucky to have both to compare and enjoy! I think they are good illustrations of improvements made over the years in the 356 models.

This subject and thread is really good. Many of the folks here have driven a real P-car at one time and now drive a replica which reads they having more fun driving at a lower cost and less fear of damage. The real P-car holders are slowly coming around to except that there are P-car lovers that really enjoy driving the iconic car. Even the SoCal concourse P-car show has allowed after many years replica to join, but not compete for concourse. Replica's will undergo the same issue as the Outlaws owners with those purists and time will slowly except up to the Porsche community.  

Ed wrote: "It was rebodied in fiberglass by a friend of the owner—a Mexican boat builder—because the aluminum body was flaking off it and the guy who ended up with Porsche 550-01 did not know anyone who could work in aluminum. "

To the best of my knowledge, both the Spyder Factory (SF) in New Hampshire and Wray Schelin in Massachusetts (and probably a few others) have done laser scans of original 550 Spyder bodies with the intention of duplicating bodies and parts.  Both have scanned at least two each and turned the scans into a composite "typical" database because, as we know, the Spyders were all hand made and no two bodies are identical.  

Both places have used the scans to produce shaping "bucks" made from hardwood (often Mahogany) to guide the craftsmen as they create the parts, with the SF creating a more refined (and slightly adjustable) buck for their builds.  This is Rainer Cooney at the Spyder Factory demonstrating how the process works (that's me peeking just over his shoulder!)   The wooden buck looks like a piece of art all by itself.

DSC_3118

DSC00273

DSC00275

The entire process of building a 550 body (or even a Speedster body part) out of metal is an exacting, time-consuming process and the number of people still doing this world-wide these days can probably be counted on two hands or less - Maybe 4 in this hemisphere.

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jprpdr posted:

i have owned 1965 Porsche 356 SC Coupe #131280 since 1974. It still provides a great "The Way Things Were" experience. I am currently breaking in my new built-to-order Vintage Motorcars 2332cc Speedster (AKA Hot Rod Volkswagen). It also provides the same experience, but in a different way. It takes me back to my 1954 Jaguar XK120 Roadster. Noisy, fast, and rough riding. The coupe is smoother in steering, shifting, and handling. The Speedster has more power, but requires more effort to operate. I am lucky to have both to compare and enjoy! I think they are good illustrations of improvements made over the years in the 356 models.

Interesting, I wonder what the nuances of the differences in the two are in your Opinion. 

ie: the larger steering wheel, steering box maybe. 

 

356 gear ratios:

(Note: these jokers inevitably discuss gear ratios using Porsch-ah code letters ABCD which are arbitrary and useless to everyone but they think it makes them sound kewl. So Porsche guys talk about  the relative merits of "AABB" gearboxes vs "BCCD" boxes. If you delve down past the letters they give you ratios in the form of tooth counts on the goddam cogs! So you get 12:33 or 18:29 instead of something a normal person would say such as "2.75 to one." They do this because they are better than us VW fools and so here I go transliterating the high-roglyphs fo ye). (I assume @ALB and @Gordon Nichols will have something to add).

 

1st (B designation) 11:34 = 3.09; (C) 12:33 = 2.75

2nd (A) 16:31 = 1.94; (B) 17:30 = 1.76; (C) 15:32 = 2.13 (D) 18:29 = 1.61

3rd (A) 22:27 = 1.22 (B) 23:26 = 1.13; (C) 1.04; (E) 20:27 = 1.85 (F) 18:29 = 1.61

4th (A) 25:24 = .96; (B) 26:23 = .88; (C) 27:22 = .81; (D) 27:23 = .85; (G) 28:21 = .75

R&P: 7:31 = 4.42

Given this differential, which is comparable only to the highest and least likely-to-be-in-your-case VW R&P at 4.375 to 1, it may be helpful to calculate each of the gears as a final drive ratio to compare to a typical replica Speedster box with a 3.875 R&P. 

The bottom line of course is that old Porsches are often screaming at normal highway speeds. You guys think 3500 at 70mph is loud and scary?  Try 4300.

This is why I advocate for the 3.44 R&P on our cars. It puts your first and second 6000 RPM shifts (of course you rev to 6000 in first and second on the regular, right?) exactly in the MPH neighborhood of early Porsches, but lets you enjoy a 70mph cruise speed at 3000-ish. 

The price of this is some diminution of off-the-line neck-snap, but since you're probably running twice the torque those old cars had, and in a lighter envelope, you're still actually much faster to 60mph than they were (or are likely to be now).

Your 2110's (or even 1914's—and never mind your 2332's) useable power band means even the relatively wider gear spacing of the common (3.8, 2.06, 1.26, .93) VW cogs will not pull you off your cam unless you're short shifting all the time. 

And a Subaru engine will of course pull any gear from any speed. 

In fact, imho, the only way to make a VW box not work beautifully in one of these cars is to run the (formerly common "Freeway Flyer") .82 4th gear, which opens up the 3rd-4th gap just frustratingly beyond the realm of what a nicely tuned Type 1 will gladly tolerate. 

 

I mathed-out the gears in Projekt Spyder as versus those in P550-0051

Gear ratios (final drive):

550-0051                                              my car

1st: 3.18     (14.1/1)                             3.80 (13.1/1)

2nd 1.94     (8.6/1)                               2.06 (7.1/1)

3rd  1.23     (5.4/1)                               1.26 (4.3/1)

4th  0.96     (4.25/1)                             0.93 (3.2/1)

R&P: 4.43                                              3.44

 

Top speed in

1st: 41 mph (@7500 rpm)                34 (@6000)

2nd 66                                                 60

3rd 104                                               100

4th 133                                               140 

Now hold on there, Edster-- you're kinda' cutting into the private/public conversation @ALB and I have every couple of months with all this gear ratio nonsense. Sometimes when we get into the weeds, I wonder when I became so pedantic and marvel that God made two of us.

But the reality is that nothing we do to our cars makes as much difference in the "feel" of these cars as the gear ratios. I'm a motor guy, and I think the transmission makes a bigger difference than the engine. Ed is 100% correct-- for a reasonably economical solution to the puzzle, a stock 1/2/3 with a ,93 fourth and a 3.44 R/P is about as nice as you can get south of $2000.

The first problem with stock VW gearing is 1st gear. Unless you plan to plow the back 40 or climb Denali with your car, first is too tall. With a stock R/P it's nearly unusable. It's too tall with a 3.88, and starting to feel right with a 3.44.

Second is almost as bad, given that it's a loooong stretch from 3.80 to 2.06, no matter how big your engine is. Fixing this means a new main-shaft, and almost nobody buys one because they cost >$500 and you need another $300 worth of idlers. Weddle makes a beautiful 3.75/2.25 mainshaft that allows a nearly perfect 4-speed with a 3.44 R/P. Put in a 1.30 3rd (another custom gear) and a .93 4th (hooray! a VW gear), and you're just about as good as it gets in a 4-speed

.... of course, it's still a 4-speed. That, and you now have a custom main-shaft, a custom 3rd, a no-so-common VW 4th, and a custom R/P (which may/may not be available when you want it)-- so your adequate compromise VW box has long since blown past $3000, and is pushing on four. Remember, of course, that you got into this hobby because it looked like good cheap fun.

... and yet still more fun than puffing out one's chest and talking with authority about the merits of your BCBA box.

Oh, you can push a 4 speed past $3000. Ask me how I know. Sometimes one gets a hair crosswise about how something should be done, and then madness ensues. It rarely subsides until the itch is scratched, the wallet is emptied, or the end is reached. The first is temporary (the more you scratch the more it itches). The second often happens, but is also temporary (the more you spend the easier it gets, AKA cognitive behavioral psychology). The last is inevitable as we all end up in a pine box or an urn on the mantle piece. (You didn't think I meant the project ended did you?)  

Jeez, ain't I a ray of sunshine today. I need to go work on something. That'll help improve the mood. Apologies for harshing the collective mellow. 

Ok, I drive my daughter to the mall and all this happens while I'm gone!

@Stan Galat- I took my coat off, read your first paragraph and nearly inhaled a half eaten grape I laughed so hard! I'm just glad that I coughed it back out as there isn't anyone else up/home...

"But the reality is that nothing we do to our cars makes as much difference in the "feel" of these cars as the gear ratios. I'm a motor guy, and I think the transmission makes a bigger difference than the engine."

Exactly! Going to close ratio gears (even just 3rd and 4th) is like going from a stock 1600 to a 6,000 rpm 1776, 1835 (thickwall!) or 1915 or, for those that already have a warmed over half pint, to a 140-150 hp stroker. It's that game changing! Doing the close 1st/2nd is just icing on the cake. Of course, now with close gears you're limited to 50-55 mph on the highway, and if you'd just coughed up for the extra gear at the same time it wouldn't have been THAT much more!

@JMM (Michael) wrote- "Oh, you can push a 4 speed past $3000. Ask me how I know"...

I don't have to ask, Michael, I've been there!

@majorkahuna- start the process now if you're thinking of a Berg 5, Noel; just waiting for GBE to have enough orders to do a production run (they do 10 main and pinion shafts at a time to keep costs down) could be 6 months to a year.

ALB posted:

Ok, I drive my daughter to the mall and all this happens while I'm gone!

@Stan Galat- I took my coat off, read your first paragraph and nearly inhaled a half eaten grape I laughed so hard! I'm just glad that I coughed it back out as there isn't anyone else up/home...

"But the reality is that nothing we do to our cars makes as much difference in the "feel" of these cars as the gear ratios. I'm a motor guy, and I think the transmission makes a bigger difference than the engine."

Exactly! Going to close ratio gears (even just 3rd and 4th) is like going from a stock 1600 to a 6,000 rpm 1776, 1835 (thickwall!) or 1915 or, for those that already have a warmed over half pint, to a 140-150 hp stroker. It's that game changing! Doing the close 1st/2nd is just icing on the cake. Of course, now with close gears you're limited to 50-55 mph on the highway, and if you'd just coughed up for the extra gear at the same time it wouldn't have been THAT much more!

@JMM (Michael) wrote- "Oh, you can push a 4 speed past $3000. Ask me how I know"...

I don't have to ask, Michael, I've been there!

@majorkahuna- start the process now if you're thinking of a Berg 5, Noel; just waiting for GBE to have enough orders to do a production run (they do 10 main and pinion shafts at a time to keep costs down) could be 6 months to a year.

"6 months to a year," eh? That sounds like someone is awaiting their sentencing hearing!  Good luck with that!

ALB posted:
IaM-Ray posted:

I know the tranny gearing of second gear is sweetest 

Do you know what gears you have Ray?

I just got back from Snow removal we woke up to a real downpour of snow, sheleg, nevica... you know, the white stuff.  I have a 28 inch track Honda SB which is 10 y.o. but like new, now you know how OCD I am, and it really helps to move the snow.  Great machine never left me stranded once and it still has the same battery. 

As to my gear ratio on my Subie tranny as Aircooled posted from my previous post but here they are. 

Subie gears reverse 4.1  R&P 

1st gear 3.454 

2nd gear 2.062 

3rd gear 1.448 

4th gear 1.088 

5th gear 0.78

I feel that if your going to go Subie engine why not subie tranny.  I mean I have been the guineapig for it here and we had some fun sorting it out but I really love it.  There are some idiosyncrasies like anything else, read that as flavour or nuances

But I would it again.

 IMO, it is a very solid platform until they legislate us out of using carbon

P.S.  Did you know the USA has an electrical generating plant technology running on NG that is a zero carbon emission producer!  Great stuff and also that the USA self sufficient in oil an now an exporter.  Great job done for a pro business model.

Here, we can't even transport our oil to market go figure,

 

 

 

 

Napa Paul posted:
ALB posted:

Ok, I drive my daughter to the mall and all this happens while I'm gone!

@Stan Galat- I took my coat off, read your first paragraph and nearly inhaled a half eaten grape I laughed so hard! I'm just glad that I coughed it back out as there isn't anyone else up/home...

"But the reality is that nothing we do to our cars makes as much difference in the "feel" of these cars as the gear ratios. I'm a motor guy, and I think the transmission makes a bigger difference than the engine."

Exactly! Going to close ratio gears (even just 3rd and 4th) is like going from a stock 1600 to a 6,000 rpm 1776, 1835 (thickwall!) or 1915 or, for those that already have a warmed over half pint, to a 140-150 hp stroker. It's that game changing! Doing the close 1st/2nd is just icing on the cake. Of course, now with close gears you're limited to 50-55 mph on the highway, and if you'd just coughed up for the extra gear at the same time it wouldn't have been THAT much more!

@JMM (Michael) wrote- "Oh, you can push a 4 speed past $3000. Ask me how I know"...

I don't have to ask, Michael, I've been there!

@majorkahuna- start the process now if you're thinking of a Berg 5, Noel; just waiting for GBE to have enough orders to do a production run (they do 10 main and pinion shafts at a time to keep costs down) could be 6 months to a year.

"6 months to a year," eh? That sounds like someone is awaiting their sentencing hearing!  Good luck with that!

It's a long wait, I know, but (other than Ted) once it's in the car and working correctly no one I know or have read about has said the wait wasn't worth it. Just accept it, get your pieces down to GBE now and you'll be roaring around with close gears AND THAT ELUSIVE HIGHWAY GEAR by Spring 2021. If your car is a swingaxle it's the only game in town. If irs you have to option of a 901 5 speed; it's not an overly difficult install, but there is a little bit of welding/fabrication and you'll be dealing with a 50 year old transaxle. And people think it's expensive to rebuild a VW trans- I'd love to hear what a rebuilt 901 ends up costing. And if you don't like the gearing inside...

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